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cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player

41.183.0.21
Posted on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
cMP

The open source high-end Memory Player

December 2007

Music delivery is perfected. cMP (cics Memory Player) delivers memory playback (without RAMDisk or other utilities) thereby eliminating disk interference during playback.

In creating cMP, its critical objective was the implementation of fundamental designs that:

  1. Remove disk traffic interference during playback without having the inconvenience of manually loading files into a virtual RAM drive, etc..
  2. Ensure time critical sample delivery to the external DAC. Streaming of samples from precision upsampled (to 24/96) sound buffers to the soundcard must be fast, lean and mean! There's no room for any bottlenecks or overheads here, otherwise we risk increasing jitter and compromise Bit Transparency.
  3. Provide better power supply and remove the need for a ferrite core on the mouse connection.
  4. Provide flexibility to choose any player (Foobar2000, Winamp etc.).
  5. Further minimize the Windows footprint to that more optimal than XP's Embedded SP2 operating system as used in large scale commercial applications. This provides the foundation for the 2nd design goal.
  6. Offer a CD/DVD-ROM drive without impacting sound quality.
  7. Offer proper remote usability as locating that mouse cursor from a distance is cumbersome.
  8. Contain costs but also allow for a complete elegant one box solution.

Such designs in theory should render a stunning sonic experience. Its implementation however was a massive challenge. Did this theory meet the sonic expectations? Yes as evidenced in cMP's bit perfect performance and ultra low jitter.

How does it sound? The most descriptive word that comes to mind is emotional. cMP's sonic purity is truly profound. It grips those musical lines across any genre with remarkable precision. Soundstage improves, there's better layering and even more ambient information. Bass is tighter, with natural vocals & instruments.

FRONT



BACK



More pictures and screenshots are available from the cMP documentation link provided below.

FEEDBACK

Pre-release testing by music lovers located all over the world yielded further insight and perfection of cMP.

  • A music lover based in the US with limited or no computer training:

    This has been a great way to learn about computers in addition to making something very useful for enjoying music.

    Compared to my ###### (read expensive high-end traditional CD transport), even with some tweaking and learning left to do, this sounds much better. Dynamic, yet relaxed (effortless?).

    I started listening last night at 7:00 and had to force myself to go to bed at twelve. Amazing spaciousness. It is truly getting close to GREAT analog and is much better than average analog already. It is simply amazing.

    I found your instructions easy to follow ONCE I understood what I was being told to do. To repeat, I have never done anything like this before, so your instructions were clear without resorting to "hand holding". I think the process was easier than you warned. I kept saying to myself, "that wasn't so bad!"

    After cMP:

    My only audio friends are very analogue-centric. Sometime in January I am going to have them over to audition the cMP. I think they are going to be amazed. Of course, I am confident that JULI@ is going to be the icing on the cake. If this takes the whole thing another step closer I think they will be grateful that one can enjoy listening to CD's as much as LP's. Of course, in many ways your approach does things even LP's cannot do. It is becoming a toss-up, but the best kind; one can enjoy either one equally well!

  • A music lover based in Europe with more than 2000 CDs:

    the quality of sound reproduction is quite amazing. My motivation for building was that I am not wealthy and could never dream of, let alone buy, a high-end CD player. Even this project was considerably more than I could properly afford and I began it with some trepidation. But it's been well worth it.

    After cMP:

    I spent several hours last night testing the latest cMP. I did several A/B runs with cMP on the one hand and Foobar launched via old batch files and reading direct from disk on the other. There is no doubt in my mind that the sound using cMP is a significant improvement even with my modest setup.

    The quality is quite stunning, significantly better than previous. (My partner agrees with this - she's no audio junkie but she is an informed music lover.)

  • A music lover based in Australia:

    I have been wanting to relay to you my own experience with your methods and give you some feedback . So far, I have found your approach produces very good results so I must convey to you my thanks and appreciation. At some point soon I will formalise my thoughts and send them to you or post them. I believe what you have done has become an excellent resource/asset to people interested in PC Audio.


FEATURES

  1. Disk traffic interference during playback is eliminated. Advanced RAM playback is based on available physical RAM (as reported by Task Manager or Process Explorer). This means up to 4GB (XP's limit) can be used allowing for 24/192 RAM playback. Recommendation is to use 1GB RAM (which yields available physical RAM of ~830MB - enough for any CD at 16/44.1). cMP achieves memory playback via the system cache and not through a simulated virtual drive. This approach removes Windows disk I/O overheads (irrespective of whether disk is physical or virtual) hence, it's more optimal.

  2. Extensive Windows & Player (Foobar2000 or other) optimizations yielding much lower jitter and bit perfect delivery. System level optimizations are done at runtime (which cannot be achieved using .bat files and utilities like Process Explorer). cMP is designed to work with 32 CPU cores!

  3. Open architecture. cMP allows for any player to be used: Foobar2000, XXHighEnd, Winamp etc. (player just needs to handle .cue files like foobar2000 otherwise play entire .wav). Any ripper software can be used (as long as it conforms to .cue single file standard like those created by EAC). Additional flexibility is provided, for example use cMP to drive your HTPC playing any movie from any genre (a .cue file for each .iso file is needed).

  4. All .cue files are processed by cMP which means the player focuses only on playing the CD. In Foobar2000, the album list control component is not needed. In techno speak this is called separation of concerns.

  5. Power delivery to the mobo is improved by further reducing interference. The need for a ferrite core is removed.

  6. Full function remote control using a wireless mouse is achieved. Your entire library can be navigated: play any CD, eject it, jump to any track or change volume. This is achieved using just ONE mouse button: the Wheel! Use the mouse as a normal one (left-click) or hold it in your hand (like a remote control) and wheel away using your thumb. Of course other buttons are used for more convenience. There's no need to find that tiny mouse cursor and left click! (You can still do this if needed).

  7. Your entire library that you so diligently ripped is fully compatible with cMP. No proprietary / lock-in stuff here which forces you to re-rip. Just point cMP to your music folders containing .cue and .wav files (or flac or other). cMP supports any content file as long as cue files are defined for them. For flac content files, the known EAC bug of adding an additional .flac suffix to the content file's name must be removed (otherwise your cue's content file directive will not be found).

  8. CD/DVD-ROM drive is implemented without compromising playback quality. For the purist, this can be unplugged without opening computer or rebooting.

Bottom line: cMP is a (one box) highly advanced memory player that's easy to setup and use. cMP's core strength lies in newly developed operating system software components (built in c/c++) that uses XP SP 2 as a foundation. Windows Explorer is done away with while cMP takes over and more. Bit perfect delivery is achieved yielding an ultra high resolution of more than 23.5 bits (a limitation in measuring instruments prevents measuring cMP's perfect resolution). DAC's have yet to achieve this resolution (as a minimum of 141db SNR is needed)! For cMP's bit perfect measurements, see (Bit Perfect Measurement & Analysis ).


GETTING STARTED

Visit cicsMemoryPlayer.com where you'll find detailed easy to follow instructions and much more.

Ensuring clean AC power delivery to equipment is very important. For DAC, pre-amp and amplifiers, use a dedicated AC circuit. For source equipment, use another AC circuit as this is where cMP's main PSU should be powered from. Use another less important AC circuit for powering cMP's 2nd dirty power inlet. Use of quality power cords and line conditioners is recommended.


Special thanks to those that provided such brilliant feedback and suggestions during pre-release testing. cMP's software is at version 1.0b as more feedback is desired. Your input, insights, criticisms, experiences and suggestions all help.

Thank you.

 

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    ...
RAID is not critical, posted on November 1, 2008 at 16:44:51
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Only benefit of RAID is faster load times to RAM.

cMP (with RAM Load set to Yes) causes all sound data to be loaded into RAM prior to playback thus removing disk I/O overheads during playback. This applies to single file cue sheets and using any audio player. With cPlay as audio player (which does RAM loading internally and therefore cMP's RAM load should be No) same applies.

 

Rick could you please post a photo when complete - Thanks -nt., posted on November 2, 2008 at 00:07:36
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

I am afraid my fragile ego will not allow me to show, posted on November 2, 2008 at 09:05:09
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 how horrible it looks!

I am using Allen Wrights silver foil so an already difficult job becomes more of a difficult job.

I went ahead and used what I thought were the correct points (thanks, Alfred, twice!).

It may look horrible but it measures properly (going from jack at the end of the breakout cable to the corresponding point of the new, directly attached, BNC); no additional resistance.

I am not using a computer case, as I have said before (I hope to no one's distraction) so I am not constrained by where the new jack needs to be. I used one of the analog boards attachment holes for the back plate and used a (what are those things called that you bundle wires with? One end inserts into the hole in the other end ...), that thing, and that is all that secures the BNC. It has a plastic body so there is no chance of it interfering with anything else. I am using an AMPHENOL 75 ohm connector that allows solder connections because I seem to be incapable of crimping.

BUT, it does sound much better. I cannot describe any special area that it improves. Of course, when one's mind knows that this HAS to sound better it is hard to not go along with the mental inertia. Nonetheless, I feel certain there is much more information being passed along and in the spirit of cMP squared, it seems to allow more information to be passed WHOLE, there is more of that feeling of a waveform presented as it was heard by the microphones, not jumbled up in the rough and tumble world of digital manipulation.

Now I wonder if, for those of us who will never use it, if removing the TOSLINK stuff would make for an improvement? It seems to me it can only be adding a little interference with all of that flashing and pulsing and the fact that it does have to be powered.

I ask Alfred if he thinks this could be worthwhile?

Now to install the latest cPLAY. Thanks cics, yet again. As Stephie tells Jeeves, "you are the particular dream rabbit".

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: I am afraid my fragile ego will not allow me to show, posted on November 2, 2008 at 10:17:06
sonics
Audiophile

Posts: 116
Joined: July 6, 2008
 hi rick
congratulation.
bnc properly applied was everytime better than coax.
i don't think it is worth the hassle to unsolder the toslink port.it contributes much heat to the board.but i don't know if there are SQ-inprovements.
bye alfred
PS: Thanks to cics for 2.07: body and information without harshness.

 

Solved by Reinstalling Within Minlogon, posted on November 2, 2008 at 13:06:15
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 675
Joined: June 25, 2008
 asio4all had been installed with regular logon before instituting minlogon.

 

No photo = Additional Description Needed..., posted on November 2, 2008 at 19:53:17
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Rick

So... with only my imagination - and your words to guide me - I'm seeing a 1 metre long cable, with BNC connector at the DAC end, and directly soldered at the other end to the Juli@ (with a nylon cable tie-wrap providing strain relief - looped through one of the vacant analog I/O holes on the Juli@'s metal backplane).

Do I pass the test ? Yes... OK, as a prize... how about a macro close-up of the soldering points on the circuit board :)

Thanks,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Additional Description Given, posted on November 3, 2008 at 08:29:14
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Grant,

I am sorry my description was not clear.

First off, I WISH I could directly solder the cable at both ends. The best connector is always NO CONNECTOR in my experience.

Nonetheless, I have made all of my other cables but for some reason I am using a STEREOVOX XV2 between JULI@ and DAC. It impressed me with its reasonable cost and the fact that its default connector is a BNC.

SO there are AMPHENOL BNCs as described before at both DAC and JULI@. Both are the type that allow soldering. I am using the ALLEN WRIGHT narrow silver foil between the female BNC's and the PCB. My lenghts are about 1.25 inches.

This is a delicate task since the points to which one solders on the JULI@ board are close together. I used little bits of my favorite paper tape (3M Blue painters tape, makes a great cable dielectric, stays sticky and pliable) but back to the subject at hand, I used the tape to cover the "pins" I am not going to use just to have a little insurance that I do not accidentally engage them.

My BNC jack at the JULI@ card is being held by a CABLE TIE, thanks for telling me what they are called. There is a hole above the "pins" that was used to attach the plate that would attach to a normal computer case. NOT AN ELEGANT SOLUTION, I know, but it works in my case. You simply make the loop place the connector within the loop and cinch it tightly.

I first soldered my foil lenghts to the connector. I then "attached" the connector to the board with the cable tie. Lastly, I soldered the foils to the board. I then attached the breakout cable and made sure I had no change in resistance from the new BNC to the old breakout cable RCA (even though in my case it was a BNC that had replaced the RCA)

I am going to replce the e5200 in my set-up with the e7200 this evening.

I am starting to think that the e5200 may be a little over its head.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

HANDS UP Everyone using the Zalman/Thermaltake HTPC Case..., posted on November 3, 2008 at 22:45:53
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi cMP Gang

I'm looking for feedback from everyone who has - or has not - used the lovely Zalman/Thermaltake HTPC case we see at the top of this thread. I'm curious to hear your realworld experience using the 7-inch LCD screen to run all the functions of the cMP Environment.

I really like the idea of it nestled amongst my other Hi-Fi gear, looking and sounding very special.

However, if there are some Dark Truths to tell about it, I'd love to know before I make the purchase. If you do have this box, are there any things you'd change about it, or - heresy notwithstanding - would you use something else if starting over ? (If that's true - what other cases have you found suitable for building a cMP rig ?)

Who has an opinion on the remote-control-via-mouse experience. Does the "small" screen make EAC ripping on the dedicated cMP machine too much trouble ? Anyone "secretly" keep a standard PC keyboard plugged in ?

Thanks so much for your input - I appreciate the help and advice you all share so freely here.

Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Recommended MB has been replaced, posted on November 5, 2008 at 19:26:37
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 At least at NEWEGG.

The new one has DUAL-BIOS which, as usual, I have no idea what that means.

Should this affect its goodness for this application?

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Recommended MB has been replaced, posted on November 6, 2008 at 11:28:56
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 Given that I just bought and installed the replacement Gigabyte motherboard from Newegg, a GA-G31M-ES2L, I'm also interested in the answer to Rick's question.

I mistakenly attempted to flash the F6X BIOS that was downloaded from this site. Fortunately, the Gigabyte @BIOS software prevented me from doing so.

I haven't yet tried all the BIOS and Memory optimizations as I wanted to make sure I had a functional cMP first. I'm assuming that most if not all the BIOS improvements will be compatible with the GA-G31M-S2L recommendations.

Chris

 

Where was F6x? from the internet or on a memory stick?, posted on November 6, 2008 at 14:57:03
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Chris,

Just curious.

I used a memory stick for the "original" version 2 board and had no problem with @BIOS, though my memory tells me I did not get it to work the first time.

I wonder if there is a reason you cannot do it directly from internet since it is coming from SOURCEFORGE instead of GIGABYTE?

It would not surprise me if there is some kind of fail-safe in place to stop that from happening. But, I really have no idea.

Let us know.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Where was F6x? from the internet or on a memory stick?, posted on November 6, 2008 at 20:59:32
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 The F6X BIOS was downloaded earlier from cics's cMP download site on sourceForge. I then stored it on a thumbdrive and mounted it prior to running @BIOS.

The @BIOS software seemingly did a checksum on this BIOS image and determined that it wasn't meant for my motherboard.

Chris

p.s. I have since updated the GA-G31M-ES2L to the latest and greatest firmware and attempted all the BIOS optimizations suggested for the GA-G31M-S2L (all the BIOS changes that were possible, that is). Unfortunately, my system is now hung at the at the initial POST screen with a completely scrambled, garbled, and illegible display. I need to figure out how to reset the BIOS before I can continue.

Incidentally, I would not recommend the slightly different mobo (the ES2L) as it doesn't appear to have the same BIOS tweaking capabilities (I haven't been able to find a way to change the memory parameters, for one).

 

The GA-G31M-ES2L mobo may not be optimal!, posted on November 6, 2008 at 21:24:41
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 Just a warning to all, I recently bought the Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L from Newegg because the cMP recommended mobo, the GA-G31M-S2L, is no longer available from Newegg.

Unfortunately, the newer board's BIOS doesn't seem to have all the same flexibility that the older board may have had. Specifically, the BIOS doesn't give you control over many of the recommended MB Intelligent Tweaker (M.I.T.) settings:

No Spread Spectrum control
No DDR timing controls!
No ability to lower the FSB Voltage Control
No ability to set CPU GTLREF Voltage Ratio

There were a few other settings that are no longer available but these are the bigger ones (off the top of my head).

After applying all the BIOS tweaks that I could from the recommended list, my machine now hangs at the POST screen. In addition, the display is scrambled and illegible. Before I can proceed, I need to figure out how to reset the BIOS to a working state. Any tips?

Chris

 

RE: The GA-G31M-ES2L mobo may not be optimal!, posted on November 7, 2008 at 02:34:44
Ryelands


 
Thanks for the tip. All motherboards feature a jumper that allows you to restore BIOS default settings - see the manual. Another way is carefully to remove the battery, leave it out for about 15 minutes and then put it back. (By the time you finish your cMP2 setup, you'll probably be quite good at this . . .)

BTW, it may be worth updating the BIOS to see if later versions allow more changes.

Best

Dave

 

Search for new mobo based on Intel's Q35 (or Q33) chipset, posted on November 7, 2008 at 06:07:47
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Intel suggests even lower power consumption.

Newegg mobos using Q35 chipset. I don't have any of these so cannot comment. Gigabyte's GA-Q35M-S2 BIOS seems similar but may lack some of the finer control. SuperMicro's C2SBM-Q looks interesting.

 

RE: The GA-G31M-ES2L mobo may not be optimal!, posted on November 7, 2008 at 06:47:05
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 To provide information to others who may go down this path as well.....

The GA-G31M-ES2L BIOS I tried was version F4. This was the most recent version that I could find. Again, this version does not appear to have control over all the tweaks recommended by cics.

Chris

 

I was hoping that could make a difference., posted on November 7, 2008 at 08:38:08
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 I am sorry that this new purchase has turned out to unsuitable for cMP.

I see that NEWEGG has some OPEN BOX of the proper boards. Just looked again, they are now gone.

There have to some of these available somewhere. Though it could turn out to be like my attempted memory purchase at AMAZON that says it has shipped but ... who knows? Caveat Emptor when dealing with anyone other than the established GOOD vendors.

I see the following as saying they have stock:
http://www.pcrush.com/product/Desktop-Motherboards/133231/Gigabyte-GA-G31M-S2L-Desktop-Board?refid=1238

http://www.shopsharksystems.com/browse/currency-USD/product/GA-G31M-S2L/?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleBase

I will keep looking for both memory and MBs

 

RE: I was hoping that could make a difference., posted on November 7, 2008 at 10:54:15
Uzeb
Manufacturer

Posts: 26
Location: Sunshine Coast BC
Joined: November 5, 2008
 I just received a Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L from Canada Computers; paid through pay-pal arrived 7 days latter.
I believe they have stock, cross border shopping is quite easy with Fedex or UPS handling the paper work.

WWW.canadacomputers.com
PC XPpro TC Electronic Konnekt-8 firewire i/o, 2-Tact 2150's, Genesis 500 modified speakers, Virtual Dynamics & XLO cables

 

OK... So is NOBODY using this Case ?, posted on November 7, 2008 at 11:08:44
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 I suppose cics is - that's where the photos came from - but can anyone speak to the usability of the LCD-All-In-One form factor ?

Do you REALLY rip your CDs using this interface (touch screen & no physical keyboard) ?

Anyone taking their cMP Rig "on the road" to play Jack-The-Giant-Killer with non-believing friends ?

Thanks for your input...
Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Yikes ! Panic Attack - Children Go Hungry as MoBo is Ordered !!, posted on November 7, 2008 at 11:36:05
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 ...just kidding - about The Children :)

Sheeeeesh... the House of Cards tumbles without the right mainboard. Thanks so much ckniker for the heads-up/ warning/ lesson !

Just ordered the requisite GA-G31M-S2L from my regular PC supply shop here in Canada - real people with real bricks-n-mortar and real Support when you have a problem. Oh, and competitive pricing too.

Now where'd that F6x get to...

Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Is Gigabite GA-G33M-S2L compatible?, posted on November 7, 2008 at 17:19:00
Ebit
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: Down Under
Joined: October 26, 2008
 Checked out the local store today they didn't have a GA-G31M-S2L but did have the other. Looking at the Gigabite website it showed the GA-G33M-S2L as having these differences - G31M specs in brackets():
1. Memory 1.4(1.2) x 1.8v DDR2 DIMM sockets up to 8(4)GB of system memory
2. LAN RTL 8111B chip (not mentioned for G31M)
3. Northbridge Intel G33(G31) Express Chipset
3. BIOS 1 x 8(4)Mbit flash
4. SM BIOS 2.4(2.3)
5. Micro ATX form factor 24.4cm x 20.7(19.3)cm
6. G33M Compatible with Extreme CPUs
Additionally the G33M has more USB ports and headers

Would any of these not be compatible/fit with the current cMP/CPlay design?

Thanks
Frank

 

It would seem the new G41 chipset would be desirable, posted on November 8, 2008 at 09:34:18
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Of course, I am not THAT sure of what I am reading, but looking through the INTEL site it would seem this new chipset is substantially lower in power required that any of the previous offerings. From my dilettante's perspective it looks like it uses 25% less power.

Does not seem there is much available yet, though I do see a GIGABYTE board is announced. Since they have been willing to work with cics on BIOS refinements maybe they would do so again. The looming unavailability of the recommended MB looks like it will be a boon instead of a disappointment.

Looking at the e7200 vs. e7300, other than a slight increase in speed it seems to be an equivalent. It is five dollars more at NEWEGG. Nonetheless, they list the e7200 as still available. Though one might think there could be fabrication enhancements involved in this evolution that could make for a better chip.

I am finding it impossible to get my e7200 to go much below 1.000 volts in an MB I know would allow the e5200 to go VERY low (0.812 per cpuz) so I wonder if I have an e7200 that is not of the highest quality. the system still sounds very good but one always wonders, "what if"?

As always, I look forward to hearing cics's assessment.

Thanks to all,

Rick McInnis

 

I know my fingers are not nimble enough, posted on November 8, 2008 at 09:45:42
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Grant,

... So I built my big box. It is DEAD, and though made of wood there is no evidence of RFI, etc.

It could be fun to have a mobile GIANT KILLER but the other side is that mobility would bring about some compromise. I compromised on mobility.

When you use RIP within cMP there is a "hunt and peck with a mouse" keyboard. I suspect cics has become quite handy with it. Of course, even with the ZALMAN case one could still plug in a keyboard, so I am not quite sure what you mean.

The case is quite attractive. If it was made of 6mm copper plate I would go for it, but I think those cases are still a little flimsy to my taste.
In addition, if one is going for complete electrical isolation steel or aluminum, though useful, are certainly not impervious.

One of these days I am going to line my case with copper mesh and HEAR if there is an improvement.

It is true audiophiliac obsession that forces one to look at a computer the same way they would a phono pre-amplifier or a turntable, because, in my humble estimation, it is.

Not the answer you were looking for but, at least, someone responded.

I brought a camera home today.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

Q35 is best choice @ TDP of 13 watts (G31=15.5 & G41=25 watts), posted on November 9, 2008 at 01:03:38
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Gigabyte GA-Q35M-S2. BIOS may not offer all settings as previous GB mobo but well worth a try.

 

As if "Q"'s were "G"'s to my assuming eyes, posted on November 9, 2008 at 10:52:54
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

Just was not paying attention.

Since this system was intended for server applications it could be a good direction.

It seems the recommended board has not got the best reviews at NEWEGG but what would make this good for their applications could be good for ours.

I see from looking through the manual this board does have the extended BIOS options with control/F1 but no indication of what else is offered when that is selected.

Could be very interesting.

Do you think the GIGABYTE folks would accommodate you, and us minions, again?

Looking forward to hearing if this turns out to be a refinement.

Thanks!

Rick McInnis

 

I Would Love to see what you've done with Wood..., posted on November 9, 2008 at 14:54:18
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Rick

Thanks for the reply :)

Non-metallic case and no hint of RFI intrusion... do you live in the woods ? Given the soup of electromagnetic radiation covering North America, I find it odd (and encouraging) to have you report thus.

Any chance of seeing The Big Box ? I'm curious as to how things are situated and mounted.

Is the cute 7-inch touch-sensitive LCD available on it's own ? Now there's a Franken-Player just waiting to be built !

The idea of a Farady cage is interesting. Years ago I implemented something like that in my Denon CD player... using conductive foam, I made a shield around the analog section - blocking at least some of the internal radiation. With a drain wire connected to the chassis, it cleared some of the fog away - sonically speaking. Every little thing helps.

So what about a box made of acrylic ? Or mounting the mobo on a floating sub-chassis - turntable-style ? Three-point or four-point suspension ? The mind boggles at the madness. So Many Ides... So Little Time.

Thanks,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Why not go all the way with the Gigabite GA-X38T-DQ6, posted on November 10, 2008 at 17:08:26
Ebit
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: Down Under
Joined: October 26, 2008
 It has a reasonably highly spec'd sound card built in, for use with other sources such as Blu Ray & Multichannel?

It looks over spec'd for audio but would still work well with cMP & cPlay, wouldn't it? Presumably the Zalman case would be too small? Is DDR3 memory a problem?

Frank

 

Lynx AES16 owners: breakout cable replacement, posted on November 11, 2008 at 08:03:22
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
To those of you who own the Lynx AES16 card (and have replaced the breakout cable), read on...

I have just started my cMP project and am happy with the results so far. However, it's not yet outperforming my CD transport in all areas (Low and High frequency response mainly). I'm not at all complaining because I still haven't optimized the O/S, BIOS, etc.

In an effort to get my cMP performing optimally, I'd like to replace the Lynx card's octopus-like breakout cable. I know from reading this thread that a number of people have already done this.

1) What AES/EBU cable is a good choice? I'm normally not averse to buying high-end ($$$) cables but am hesitant in this case as it will result in an unsaleable cable after cutting one of the ends off.

2) Any tips on the soldering? Will the butchering/soldering of the cable (to the appropriate traces/pins on the Lynx card) ruin any kind of 110 ohm impedance matching that these cable manufacturers take great pains to maintain?

3) Any other helpful info is appreciated....

Chris

 

Read the literature, posted on November 11, 2008 at 08:41:27
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 I am glad you have discovered this approach to computer audio.

It is obvious you have not read the papers or many of cics's posts.

One very big aspect of this approach is to find a system that uses as little power as possible.

Read the stuff and you will see how different cics's approach is to the mainstream. This is an audio perfectionists approach. Convenience is compromised in exchange for the best possible "sonics".

 

RE: Why not go all the way with the Gigabite GA-X38T-DQ6, posted on November 11, 2008 at 09:29:40
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 just to add to rick's comments the best mobo has to have the flexibility of doing all the bios settings recommended by cics. The real beauty of cplay/cmp is to set all the parameters in hardware/Windows to be optimized for music. This includes underclocking, setting latencies, enough power to do 24/192 with 146 src etc etc. As I tell all who ask me--- don't try to redo it unless you are really really smart, have unbelievable work ethic and an uncanny ear for the 'most transparent sound'. Its all worked out for you just follow the program and you'll have a transport that beats/equals anything in my experience.

 

X38 TDP @ 26.5 watts is unlikely to be be a good start. Not yet tested DDR3. nt, posted on November 11, 2008 at 12:33:11
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 .

 

Did read it, posted on November 11, 2008 at 19:22:38
Ebit
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: Down Under
Joined: October 26, 2008
 However thought the TPD would be about the same as Q35.

I am also looking at HTPC, plus active crossovers, plusd DSP, and expect the processing demand will be quite high, therefore wish to push system capabilities as far as reasonable.

How much difference do you think an extra 10 or so watts will make with a well constructed mother board with more efficient built in cooling options?

Frank

 

I wish I knew enough to help, posted on November 12, 2008 at 08:09:30
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Frank,

I am glad you took my short comment in a good way. I worry sometimes when someone suggests one of the "deluxe" MBs that they have missed the point of cics's system.

All of cics's research has led him to minimizing power required to do the task at hand. And in this case it is nothing but playing music.

If you are doing a HTPC, which I have an interest in also, I would make it a dedicated machine. I do think the two tasks are so different that they would be at odds.

If you want an excellent device for playing CD's and you do not want to spend thousands of dollars consider following the instructions to the letter and I can assure you you will be amazed at what is possible.

I had no interest in computers before reading cics's papers and posts so I am the last one to give advice. What I know centers around his system.

If you are striving for the best possible audio I would think again about using the computer as a crossover. As cics specifies using an outboard DAC, I would wonder if this would also apply to a crossover. Such an arrangement would be fine for HT but I would worry that with high resolution speakers you might not be happy. I have no idea. I am sticking with chokes and capacitors before the amplifier inputs.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

I will show you, posted on November 12, 2008 at 08:17:54
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 I do live in the woods, not deep in the woods; I live in the Atlanta suburbs, but maybe that is why I get away with it.

I have the MB supported by crudely cut pieces of SORBOTHANE. This gives a little isolation but more importantly the stuff is sticky so there is no need to screw the thing down.

It is simply a big box inspired by Jean Nantais's advice on making a PLNTH (capitalizied because it is massive) for a LENCO l75 turntable. I used the same materials I used for the TT, a composite of MDF and baltic birch plywood. It is supported on legs of 6 x 6 cedar and rests in a sandbox. Who knows if any of this is worthwhile, but I do it anyway.

Did you read the post from Bernd about lowering the ATX voltage of the ANTEC power supply? Intriguing. Can't wait to try it this weekend.

 

SATA CD/DVD drive (instead of IDE), posted on November 13, 2008 at 12:25:37
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 Is there any reason why the cMP installation guide suggests an IDE-based CD/DVD drive instead of one with a SATA interface?

The installation guide says to use a "Basic" drive (or one with low power requirements, i.e. a basic LG). Unfortunately, Newegg, doesn't list the power specs so I ended up ordering an inexpensive LG (w/ SATA interface) and hoped for the best. Additionally, I thought that the SATA interface would give me the benefit of not having to use Granite Digital's IDE/SATA to USB bridge.

I just received it the DVD drive and the power specs are listed as:

5V / 12V == 1.5A / 2.0A

I don't recall seeing the multiple current specs on other DVD drives I've looked at so I don't know what that means.

Ultimately, does this suggest that this drive is not optimal for cMP usage? Will it require ANOTHER Granite Digital external power supply?

Thanks,
Chris

 

RE: SATA CD/DVD drive (instead of IDE), posted on November 13, 2008 at 12:33:30
seger
 2.0A is right at the GD limit. But there is no need to have your DVD drive connected up except when installing Windows - do your ripping on another computer and transfer files to your cMP computer with a flash drive.

 

BNC mod for Juli@ - The Visual Version..., posted on November 16, 2008 at 09:38:26
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi cMP-ers...

For those who yearn to bypass the nasty break out cable and add BNC connectors to their Juli@ card... but are stuck because no easy plan presents itself... let me show you one way of making this modification.

Full Disclosure: The mounting concept and execution are the handiwork of Bob (not his real name) - who I am blessed to have as the-technician-who-can-do-"anything"... One time he changed the solder in my poweramps for me - yes, think about what that means !


The idea is simple enough: mount the jacks on a separate backplane and wire them to the points where the digital I/O connects to the circuit board.

When you're done, you should have something like this:




By replacing the screws that hold Juli@'s backplane to the PCB (same thread, longer shaft), Bob created mounting points for the new assembly. Tiny L-brackets were fashioned to hold the "jackplane" at the correct distance from Juli@, such that the BNCs line up with the standard PCI slot spacing. Note how the jacks and shoulder washers have been filed down to fit through the narrow slot opening.



The L-brackets are pop-riveted to the jackplane. Slots were cut into the brackets, to allow fine tuning the alignment.



In this case, the jacks are wired with Mogami mini-pair hookup wire (part # W2944) - made of NEGLEX, OFC copper. Only one of the conductors carries the signal.



And finally - The Secret - where do you solder those wires ?



Yes, if your system (and DAC) have sufficient resolution, you should hear an improvement - I know I do.

I hope this encourages those DIY-ers who've been wanting to get just a little more out of their Juli@ card - but lacked the practical implementation.

Cheers (and Happy IMPROVED Listening),
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Brilliant--wish I had a Bob!! nt, posted on November 16, 2008 at 10:18:31
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ,

 

What do you do with the digital "in"?, posted on November 16, 2008 at 18:45:34
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 And with the analogue part of the card?

Just curious.

I worry I might be the cMP squared puritan. When I start (literally) burning folks who are not minimizing the power usage AT LEAST to cics's specifications you will have to do something with me.

Grant, I cannot remember which PS you are using but Bernd's discovery of lowering the ATX power with the ANTEC EA430 is very clever and worthwhile.

One gets a little closer by doing it.

Your friend has what would have to be called an evolved technique. One does not get THERE the first time they try something, not even the fourth time.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: cMP PSU Recommendations: Better, Best... and UNOBTAINIUM, posted on November 16, 2008 at 21:45:11
Audio Bling
Audiophile

Posts: 307
Location: Australia
Joined: October 9, 2007
 Just noticed a new review/comparo of the CORSAIR HX520 here. Maybe of interest..

Bling

 

The Digital-IN is for Recording..., posted on November 16, 2008 at 22:35:28
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Rick
1): Recall I have yet to build a standalone cMP machine. The box that hosts my software-only implementation of cMP+cPlay is also my main-machine... doing double duty as general purpose computer and DAW. All questions of lowering power consumption, underclocking RAM &CPU, isolating dirty from clean power supplies, ditching analoge sound sections, etc., etc., etc., etc., must wait for the Happy Day I build a new box.

2): The Juli@ card replaced an M-Audio Delta 1010 (due to the 96Khz SR limit of the Delta). For the many tasks it performs, the analogue output from Juli@ is a must. I may decide to yank it in the cMP Rig.

3): I look forward to getting the EA430 PS... and tinkering with the voltage pot. Thanks in advance to Bernd for sharing this tweak with The Brotherhood - Great Discovery !

4): Oh yes... TWEAK ALERT: The Digital-IN can be used to supply Juli@ with an external clock source during playback. If the external clock is better/cleaner than Juli@'s internal oscillator, you'll get a "better" S/PDIF stream to feed your external D/A converter. What you hear depends on the resolution of your D/A & monitoring setup... but you should hear an improvement. I know I do.

My converters are from the good folks at Benchmark Media Systems... the much-balley-hooed DAC1 and the even-more-astonishing ADC1. The ADC1 provides a VERY clean clock (up to 192 KHz), and the DAC1 tells me so. It was true with the Delta 1010, and is true too with Juli@.

Select EXTERNAL in Juli@'s control panel, connect ADC1 to digital-IN, set the desired sample rate on the Benchmark (no audio input to ADC1) and the embedded clock in the (silent) datastream will clock the card's output with greater accuracy. Instant upgrade... without the messy soldering !

And damn fine recordings from your analogue sources too (Lenco L75, Studer B67, etc.).

So, I hope I've answered the question...

Cheers,
Grant



That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Very completely at that!, posted on November 17, 2008 at 08:06:42
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 The external clock thing has been floating out there in the tweak ether for quite awhile though no one, to my knowledge, has reported on the effects.

I know I and others would like to hear what you think especially in the context of the dedicated cMP machine when you get a chance to assemble one.

Would the analog part of the card need to be involved for the external clock to work? I have made my card DEDICATED digital only by using those pins for capacitor bypasses.

THANKS to you for apprising us of your work and thoughts. I know I am one of many who are glad that you are involved in THIS.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: The Digital-IN is for Recording..., posted on November 17, 2008 at 08:51:52
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 You said '...Oh yes... TWEAK ALERT: The Digital-IN can be used to supply Juli@ with an external clock source during playback. If the external clock is better/cleaner than Juli@'s internal oscillator, you'll get a "better" S/PDIF stream to feed your external D/A converter. What you hear depends on the resolution of your D/A & monitoring setup... but you should hear an improvement. I know I do...' can one do this with the stock juli card (ie w/o your very clever soldering tweak)? If so how does one do this, I mean can any adc be used? I'm interested because I have a Benchmark dac1 too. How much is the Benchmark adc?

 

special switches for BIOS features?, posted on November 17, 2008 at 10:54:45
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 Are there special settings needed that allow all of these BIOS capabilities?

I just received this motherboard (after previously rejecting the GA-G31M-ES2L mobo for lack of these BIOS settings) and upgraded the BIOS rev. to F6x. Now, in spite of the fact that I'm running the same GA-G31M-S2L with the same BIOS version, I don't have the ability to set the following:

# PnP/PCS Configuration
Set PCI Latency Timer (CLK) to 128 (maximum benefit is gained when ASIO latency is below 64 samples)

# MIT Settings
Set FSB DeOverVoltage Control to -0.15V
Set CPU GTLREF Voltage Ratio to 0.636 (default) / 0.603 / 0.566 / 0.540 [each to be tested]


In the case of FSB DeOverVoltage, there is control over INCREASING the Voltage (i.e. FSB OverVoltageControl) but none for decreasing the voltage. In the other two, PCI Latency Timer and CPU GTLREF, these settings do not show up.....

Is there something more I need to do to allow me to change these?

Thanks,
Chris

p.s. I may need to modify my other post about the GA-G31M-ES2L saying that it may not be optimal. In light of the above, it may be just as capable as the recommended mobo....

 

RE: special switches for BIOS features?, posted on November 17, 2008 at 11:12:45
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 did you press control f1 once in bios to get advanced bios?

 

RE: special switches for BIOS features?, posted on November 17, 2008 at 11:20:54
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 > did you press control f1 once in bios to get advanced bios?

No, I wasn't even aware of this. This is, in all likelihood, exactly the information I was looking for.

Thanks

 

For clocking purposes only, it is expensive, posted on November 17, 2008 at 15:09:40
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Looks like $1700.00 is the price of admission.

If it makes a dramatic difference, one could consider it a justifiable purchase but I KNOW I am not going to be the first to try it.

Theo, buy one for the team. At least, we would get a good assessment from someone who knows how to listen. Maybe someone would allow you to audition the unit for a few days?

I see it has a TOSLINK output, though for the WORDCLOCK they only talk about 75 ohms impedance so this maybe is limited to BNC. Grant, would you fill us in? I have no idea how this works.

You could send your JULI@ to Bob and get the necessary BNC's that will work with a standard computer case. One way or the other this would be worthwhile.

Just trying to be manipulative, I mean, helpful.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Externally Clocking the Juli@..., posted on November 17, 2008 at 15:47:02
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo

Two requirements are needed for this to work:

1) Juli@ clock select is set to EXT in the control panel...




2) you connect an S/PDIF datastream to the Juli@'s digital-IN port (BNC tweak not required - but it helps). The S/PDIF signal has an embedded clock, and so Juli@ locks to this for it's reference (ignoring it's own internal oscillator). Of course, you want to send a sample rate that matches your chosen cPlay-SRC-upsampled output rate (ie: 192 KHz input for cPlay at 192 SRC). Not all ADCs work up to 192 SR... and not all ADCs that go that high work equally well.

A mismatched SR will not harm the Juli@, but you will hear funny results. I often neglect to power up the ADC1 before launching my cMP environment. Running cPlay at -121/192KHz-SRC through Juli@ (when set to EXT), and failing to send any clock input, defaults playback to 44.1... which is similar to playing a 30 ips analog tape at 7.5 ips... low... slow... and completely wrong ! Try it yourself (no external ADC required).


External ADC:
With the DAC1 you're more than Halfway to Heaven... and the purchase of an ADC1 is no small consideration. It is a STUNNING encoder, and for anyone recording digital audio from 2-channel analogue sources, it's pretty hard to beat. I bought mine before the USB version was released :(

Depending on your other needs, a standard ADC1 would serve nicely. (...and no, I'm not a Benchmark shill - just a very happy customer)

Trouble is, you can't buy a cheap, HQ standalone clock source - at least not as I'm aware (but then don't confuse me with An Expert - I'm just reporting on my own personal experience).

What I've found is:
my DAC1 told me that clocking the Delta 2496 card with an M-Audio Audiosport Duo USB (see Item number: 220311232334 on ebay right now, and you may get a bargain to experiment with - but beware it's 96KHz-capable only)...




...was a small improvement over the Delta's internal reference. Using the ADC1 as clock source increased the effect (cleaner highs & lows, more precise imaging... the whole audiophile bag of cliches). When the Delta 1010 replaced the 2496, I heard equivalent benefits (the cards are of the same vintage).

With Juli@, the ADC1 clock improves the sound, but it is more subtle... it doesn't club you over the head with "Now THAT'S really different". I suppose the smaller percentage improvement is owing to a more modern design (better chips) in Juli@ than the old M-Audio cards had to begin with. Still - A Little Bit... is A Little Bit Better !






But don't buy an ADC1 JUST to clock your Juli@... unless you're blessed with unfettered budget and no one to answer to !!

So... Theo - did I answer your question ? I hope so.
Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Externally Clocking the Juli@..., posted on November 17, 2008 at 16:32:02
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 wow you did answer them thank you very much!! let me ask you this can one use a digital in say from toslink or aes/ebu (the balanced ins) of the same benchmark dac to externally clock? Or said another way why not just set the juli panel to external? Will that work with the Benchmark?

no I don't have unlimited cash.

 

WORDCLOCK, S/PDIF and Splitting Digital Hairs..., posted on November 17, 2008 at 16:46:45
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 OK... sorry for the goofy subject line.

1) ADC1 is truly a professional product - of extremely high quality - with many features useful only for recording activities. No wonder it costs $$$.

2) WORDCLOCK signal is always 75 ohms and distributed via electrical coax/BNC-terminated cables.

3) Juli@ does not have a distinct (separate) WORDCLOCK input... only digital-IN and digital-OUT.

4) S/PDIF data format has the clock embedded in the signal - and reading this (from the digital-IN port) is the only way Juli@ can get an incoming clock reference. In fact, that's how the card syncs up to another (external) device when recording from it's digital inputs.

Just a few words of clarification.

Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: For clocking purposes only, it is expensive, posted on November 17, 2008 at 16:51:49
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Take one for the team...I love your response!!! Being retired does have limits. I'm still trying to figure out if I can set my AGI power supply lower (I have no idea how to start a search on this). You guys are way ahead of me.

 

External Clocking Clarifications..., posted on November 17, 2008 at 20:42:21
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo

Pardon me for not being clear enough at the outset...

The Benchmarks:
1) DAC1 receives a digital input. The format can be AES/EBU, or S/PDIF on copper coax, or S/PDIF on optical TOSlink. DAC1 does not have a separate WORDCLOCK input, rather it determines the incoming sample rate from the embedded clock. DAC1 has NO digital outputs of any kind... and therefore nothing to offer for externally clocking the Juli@.

2) ADC1 sends a digital output. The output format can be AES/EBU, and S/PDIF on copper coax, and S/PDIF on optical TOSlink (the clock is embedded in the output signal). ADC1 ALSO has a dedicated WORDCLOCK output (not suitable for use with Juli@).

Most (I hesitate to say "all"...) professional equipment will provide an input for WORDCLOCK, the idea being that all devices must sync up with one master clock, in order that the sample rates of every device operate as one. The better the clock, the better the gear works "as one", and reduced timing errors = better sound. That's why studios will spend a small fortune on a really good Master Clock - the only job it does is to provide a very precise reference for everyone to sync to.

Juli@:
As with most other non-pro cards, the Juli@ has no dedicated WORDCLOCK-IN. It will sync to the incoming signal on it's digital-IN. Your task is to find a device you can afford to buy, that can output an S/PDIF signal up to 192 KHz (presuming you are interested in using that rate of upsampling in cPlay). That device will be some kind of Analog-to-Digital converter that has S/PDIF output on copper coax.

Sorry, you haffta get another Box to play this game. Yeah... Take One for The Team !

A little clearer now ?
Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: External Clocking Clarifications..., posted on November 18, 2008 at 05:20:08
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 yes very clear and thank you again. I don't know, maybe its a mute point because now I prefer no upsampling (I was a firm believer in -146 SRC and 192 sampling rate until this latest cplay version). But if and when cics converts all the src code to SIMD (sp?) I will just sit on 44khz out put from cplay.

 

Better Clock Ref = Better Sound at ALL Sample Rates..., posted on November 18, 2008 at 08:13:19
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Heh-heh Theo... trying to dodge the Bullet for the Team eh ?

Keep in mind that the benefit of a cleaner clock reference extends to ALL sample rates. "I'm only playing cPlay at 44.1 KHz" does not change that fact.

Cheers,
Grant



That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Better Clock Ref = Better Sound at ALL Sample Rates..., posted on November 18, 2008 at 09:02:22
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 You got me there sir.

What puzzles me is before I built a cmp/cplay dedicated computer I was running cplay on my home pc. I had the juli card installed and I was running 24/176 and the sound was good (not as good as it is with cmp/cplay in a dedicated pc --- by far). But anyway I had a usb cable running from my pc to the Benchmark (along with a spdif cable from juli to Benchmark) and I also had other players like j river and WMP11 on that pc. I selected external clock on my juli panel and to my recollection it worked and sounded better than an internal clock selection on the panel. Now in my dedicated E7200, gigabyte, kingston ram computer (in which I have juli assemlbed) I cannot get the external clock selection to work. I'm wonderting why it worked before. Can anybody herlp on this?

 

RE: EXT Selected and NO incoming signal..., posted on November 18, 2008 at 09:53:46
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo

That's a good one ! Were you using an earlier version of the Juli@ driver in the situation you describe ? It MAY be that it was written to default to a different - and coincidentally compatible - sample rate when EXT is selected and no incoming signal is detected.

Beyond that I can't say. It "shouldn't" work if you don't have an S/PDIF stream connected to the digital-IN of the Juli@. Wellll... it's always something...

Cheers,
Grant


That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: EXT Selected and NO incoming signal..., posted on November 18, 2008 at 10:07:32
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 It was .978 juli driver now I'm using the new one (forgot #). But maybe I remember wrong.

Just to convince me whether this is worth pursuing (I'm not buying a $1700 adc), how much improvement did you get with external clocking? Was it as much as going from 2.09 to 2.20 version of cplay? Or something smaller?

 

If 44.1 Floats Yer Boat... Try This Experiment..., posted on November 18, 2008 at 19:05:19
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo (and Lurkers...)

I understand your reticence for ordering the ADC1 - just to clock the Juli@ ! And I salute your curiosity.

So I thought this today... Anyone who's dedicated enough to tinker with the cMP idea MUST have come from a halfway-decent CD player... and it's probably still hanging around the house somewhere. You can try out the external clock trick "for free" - as long as you limit your cPlay to 44.1 KHz playback (ie: no upsampling).

Power up the CD player, connect the digital-OUT to Juli@'s digital-IN, and see if it makes a difference for you. There are so many variables here, that "it depends" is the only solid prediction I'll make. Chances are your high-end player has a better clock crystal than the Juli@... or maybe not.

I await your reports.

---------------------------------------------
Theo wrote:
Was it as much as going from 2.09 to 2.20 version of cplay?

Surely you mean "2.0b10" and not some phantom cPlay v2.20... I'll try these combinations and see if I can describe the differences.

Cheers,
Grant



That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: If 44.1 Floats Yer Boat... Try This Experiment..., posted on November 19, 2008 at 04:03:04
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 great idea...will try. yes thanks for the correction on the 2.0b10 and btw I have an oppo that can output 24/88 and 24/176 as well as 24/44 from its special modded digital outs. Will have to wait until I get a real dvd player to pull it out of my video sys.


fantastic thinking!!

 

SATA ROM drives can be used as long as total power consumption doesn't exceed GD PS limit, posted on November 19, 2008 at 07:47:44
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Your 12V specs is at the limit of GD PS. Also, with SATA there's no need to convert to USB.

Seger's advice is best, i.e. rather not install a ROM drive.

 

RE: SATA ROM drives can be used as long as total power consumption doesn't exceed GD PS limit, posted on November 19, 2008 at 08:08:14
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 > Seger's advice is best, i.e. rather not install a ROM drive.

agreed.

My question arose from the fact that my LG SATA DVD drive listed TWO specs (1.5A @ 5V and 2.0A @ 12V). This boils down to the question: "when is the 5V power rail used (reading?) and when is the 12v rail used (burning?)".

I'm following your guide and have installed a .5A laptop drive. I'd like to additionally install the DVD drive (for the rare occasion that I need to rip on the cMP machine). If the DVD drive only consumes 1.5A for all my needs (ripping) then I should be OK using it and the laptop drive with the same GD PS.

p.s. Yes, I know there's no need to convert to USB. That's why I went with the SATA DVD option. One interesting thing I discovered, however: My SATA drives (HD and DVD) are being mapped to IDE devices. The channel and Slave/Master ID's are dependent on which mobo SATA connector I connect to. Does this suggest there's a cMP recommended SATA configuration?

Thanks,
Chris

 

How about a netbook?, posted on November 19, 2008 at 08:42:52
kukiman
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Joined: November 12, 2008
 Dear Cics,

With myself frequenting the audioasylum pcaudio lately, I cannot believe I've been missing this thread out despite all the raving replies! I am so silly!

I am wondering, have you ever tried, or heard anyone tried, to use a netbook to installed the cmp? With the atom processor and ssd? It is a bare minimal machine which runs off battery power, no cd player and almost no fan, and best of all, low cost.

It is not dual core, unfortunately, but do you think it could be a worthy machine to run your marvelous cmp "OS?" Or is there some obvious reasons it could not be used?

Would love to hear your expert opinion on this as there is no one else whom can answer this better than you. It is, I suppose, my last trial before jumping into an expensive HiFiPC (HFPC?)

Thank you so much in advance for your kind replies!!

KK Wong

 

RE: If 44.1 Floats Yer Boat... Try This Experiment..., posted on November 19, 2008 at 09:27:54
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I have an old panasonic dvd player that has a digital out. so I hooked it up to juli digital in but it only shows up as 48khz on juli panel. listened and yes it sounds ok initially. I listened for a longer period of time to 48k external clock versus 48k internal clock and it is very close. Maybe external is a bit better (richer, more bass, less hash, more body). Now I can't wait till I get my oppo in my audio sys and try the higher clock rates.

Omg I initially understated how good this is. Everybody out there you gotta try. On classical the dynamics are greater, unfettered ... FFFF just blows the walls down.

thank you grant!!

Oh baby this is good. The funny thing is I was going to throw this panasonic away because the dvd drive doesn't work any more but the clock sure does.

 

Attention Theo: You Must Act NOW !!, posted on November 19, 2008 at 10:16:08
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo

In case you have a little jingle in your pocket for this external clocking tweak - ebay has an auction closing in 40 minutes you should consider.

Sign in and search for Item number: 220311232334 - This is the same unit I began using to clock my PCI cards (before it was replaced with the Benchmark ADC1)

Thew advantage to you here is the easily selectable sample rates. And it's an OK 2-ch A-to-D converter if you ever need to do some recording.

Good Luck and Go-Get-EM... TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM !!
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Attention Theo: You Must Act NOW !!, posted on November 19, 2008 at 11:59:08
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 not bad but limited to 48Khz

 

It's like admonishing the Children - AU CONTRAIRE..., posted on November 19, 2008 at 14:07:46
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo
[note the now-familiar BNC mod]

The maximum encode/decode SR in the USB Duo is 96KHz (as I stated previously). It is limited to 48KHz when run in duplex mode (simultaneous send AND receive) via the USB 1.1 connection. We don't care about that.

There is a Standalone Mode, where the USB connection is not involved, and only the S/PDIF jack emits signal. To set the SR, you flip the unit over and adjust 2 DIP switches...

...and you get all the stops along the way...


At thirty-six bucks, the ebay-Duo would be a cheap source of a reasonably good external clock - and more convenient than coaxing your disc players into emitting the desired SR. Just my two cents.

Please DO report on your higher SR clocking experience with cMP.

Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: It's like admonishing the Children - AU CONTRAIRE..., posted on November 19, 2008 at 14:25:42
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 AW gee dad the bidding just ended. You are right its a good deal. I read the owners manual and saw 48Khz and declined at that.

 

RE: It's like admonishing the Children - AU CONTRAIRE..., posted on November 20, 2008 at 04:56:02
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ok grant after one day of listening to external clock I'm convinced. Besides the M audio product that I missed on ebay what else is out there, that is reasonably priced, that provides clocks up to 192?

 

Clocks matter: panasonic dvd player good, opp 980 not good..., posted on November 20, 2008 at 13:45:02
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...what is this all about? There was a clear difference between panasonic dvd player (circa 1998) and oppo 980 (circa 2008) and internal juli clock (in between). I don't understand. Anybody understand this?

Maybe its all a matter of clock circuit or power supply to the clock circuit. I dunno but I'll tell you the panasonic is in for the long term till I can replace with a better one.

 

The Search for Theo's Clock..., posted on November 20, 2008 at 22:29:58
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo

Since we are going off in a direction tangent to the original "BNC Mod for Juli@" thread - please allow me to start anew, and engage the help of all the Lurkers reading these posts.

To begin, let's jump off from the old discussion:
------------------------------------------------------------------
OK Grant after one day of listening to external clock I'm convinced. Besides the M audio product that I missed on ebay what else is out there, that is reasonably priced, that provides clocks up to 192?

Clocks matter: Panasonic DVD player good, Oppo 980 not good... what is this all about? There was a clear difference between Panasonic dvd player (circa 1998) and Oppo 980 (circa 2008) and internal Juli@ clock (in between). I don't understand. Anybody understand this?

Maybe its all a matter of clock circuit or power supply to the clock circuit. I dunno but I'll tell you the Panasonic is in for the long term till I can replace with a better one.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me preface these remarks: With respect to the current marketplace, I am not Omnipotent in all current offerings ...AND... do not confuse me with a Real Expert - I'm only reporting on my experiences.

OK... Let The Games Begin !

To all Engaged Readers:
Please post your suggestions/ discoveries/ or explanations of any component you think will meet Theo's criteria. Through collaboration - many eyes in many places - we may yet find the right box for the job.

As I understand it, the device should be 192 KHz-capable via S/PDIF coax, cause the Juli@ to sound better than it does using it's internal oscillator, and be of "reasonable" cost (whatever that means). That is our task...

One fundamental difficulty with The Quest: manufacturers don't see what you need as a product category - a Good, Cheap, Standalone Clock Source. This sort of thing is crucial in the pro recording environment - and priced accordingly - for the excellent performance it delivers. What's a home user gonna do with a $300 clock ?

Theo:
I'm curious at what SR you made these comparisons ? How do you get the DVD players to output anything other than their standard 48 KHz?

I believe you need to find a "reasonable" A-to-D converter - that can run at 192 KHz... and provides S/PDIF coax output to drive the Juli@. Sure... let's think about that.

Here's an interesting note: in both public forums and private correspondence, Elias Gwinn (development engineer at Benchmark) states that chip makers have yet to get 176/192 conversion right. He recommends 96 KHz max for recording, based on the accuracy of current clock circuits. This leads me to believe most pedestrian prosumer A/D units will not shine at the upper SRs. (don't confuse recording@192 with the upsampling done in cPlay)

At sub-KiloBuck prices, you're looking at prosumer/home recording solutions. Most of these connect to the computer via USB, or Firewire... narry an S/PDIF output in sight.

If you're really stuck on 176/192 playback from cPlay, you've got a challenge. Most home recordists don't care about 176/192... 96 KHz is a big deal already. And they just want to plug the damn thing in and go - maybe with their desktop at home and notebook on the road - which means either USB or Firewire - forget PCI and breakout boxes. And THAT'S who the designers are aiming for.

The USB Duo - not to be confused with any current M-Audio offering - was unique (to my knowledge) as being 3 things in one: standalone analogue mic pre-amp, standalone A/D converter via S/PDIF, and directly-USB-connected duplex digital I/O interface.

You need that Duo thing - but running up to 192 KHz. Anybody out there seen one ? I know I haven't (but I've been wrong at least once before).

So Theo, is that enough damage for one post ? I better get off it now so the cMP-ers can scout and report The Grail really does exist !

Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: The Search for Theo's Clock..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 01:57:58
edward
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Joined: September 28, 2007
 This past summer I had the opportunity to listen to the Antelope Audio OCX clocking the RME Fireface 800. The FF800 has a reputation of having a pretty decent clock on it's own, but externally clocking it to the OCX was a not-so-subtle improvement in SQ. Extensive A/B was not necessary. I heard the difference in the first 10 seconds (it was that obvious). Now granted I was using the Wordclock out function of the OCX and it does indeed support 192KHz, but I understand it also has S/PDIF output. I cannot vouch for that functionality, but I can say the OCX is worth it's salt.

In Southern California there is a company that has a "try before you buy" program where you can demo the unit FREE of charge for 7 days.
http://www.audiomidi.com/specials/trybeforeyoubuy.cfm

I no longer have the RME at my disposal nor do I have the Juli@, otherwise I would do this myself. But maybe Theo is willing to try.

 

RE: The Search for Theo's Clock..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 02:58:09
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 what a wonderful, well thought out comment -- you are a gem! the clock mentioned elsewhere is this thread sounds good but it is very pricey. I know Elias, he is one upright rep for Benchmark so I take him at his word re 96 khz.

To answer your questions: yes I could only get 48Khz out of the Panny but that is where I did my sonic comparisons: panny at 48Hhz vs internal juli @ 44 and 48khz and in this comparison the Panny won -- not even close. I will be looking for another m -audio. I could get 44,48, 88 out of the modded oppo but the panny still won which has what prompted me to be begin the quest. It'll be moot when cics releases the next cplay version with full simd capability through src 192 khz. Till then the panny stays in the system.

 

RE: The Search for Theo's Clock..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 04:07:57
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 great clock and thank you for the suggestion/idea. just a little too pricey for me.

 

What about replacing the crystal oscillators, posted on November 21, 2008 at 08:30:40
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 with one of the fancy "clocks" on the market?

Not that it would be any cheaper, or much cheaper.

Certainly this PLUG IN approach has its advantages over adding bulky pcb's in an already tight spot.

I know I missed it but please repeat:
Does this approach require the analogue part of the board to be in place?

One does wonder knowing that affordable CD players are certainly not using fancy clocks, just crystals, is there an HIGH quality crystal that could get most of this improvement as an almost easy swap of the two crystals on the JULI@ board?

To put all of this in its proper perspective:
Who cares that a financial crisis/panic is blazing when there is audio so convenient to obsess over? Not me. This panic sure hasn't done anything to help the traffic in my town. I wonder if this whole thing is some kind of giant video game the "news" outlets and the governments are playing and those who watch TV are getting to see the "action", assuming this is "news" and governance since it is really Goldberg's latest trick.

I really, really hate Oceania.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: What about replacing the crystal oscillators, posted on November 21, 2008 at 10:42:47
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 dont need analogue board, just go from a dvd or cd player digital out to juli digital in and reset juli panel to external clock. presto new clock! my old panasonic dvd player has a killer clock.

 

Yes Rick - You Can Clock Juli@ SANS Analogue Section..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 10:54:12
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Rick

The external clocking option should work with - or without - the analogue board in place on Juli@. I qualify this statement ("should") only because I'm not prepared to rip my computer to pieces to confirm... that Honour can be yours !!

As a quick teaser, try what Theo did with his DVD player - just keep in mind that 44.1 -> 48 KHz is the most brutal of resampling operations (according to Bob Katz), and likely to sound the worst of any SRC upsampling option.

There are numerous choices for fancier clock solutions - mostly aimed at Hi-Fi gear - but doing that with Juli@ doesn't seem cost-effective to me. I've not searched out all the options that would work specifically with the ESI card, but I imagine power supply/ voltage issues could come into play.

I'll stick with the flexibility the PLUG-IN method allows... and with my ADC1 as master clock source. (BTW, $1099 takes it away in Chicago - see ebay Item number: 300274799091)

Let us know what YOU hear...
Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: The Search for Theo's Clock..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 11:13:29
Uzeb
Manufacturer

Posts: 26
Location: Sunshine Coast BC
Joined: November 5, 2008
 Check out Black Lion Audio's micro clock around 400 bucks I think.

You could also have one of the audio modding companies replace the cards crystal with a Audiocom super clock 4.

http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RAM&Category_Code=SCLK4

Regards


PC XPpro TC Electronic Konnekt-8 firewire i/o, 2-Tact 2150's, Genesis 500 modified speakers, Virtual Dynamics & XLO cables

 

RE: The Search for Theo's Clock..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 11:38:34
edward
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Joined: September 28, 2007
 The outputs on the Black Lion are all Wordclock out - aren't they? It doesn't have S/PDIF output - does it? (That's what Theo needs).

 

NO, it doesn't, posted on November 21, 2008 at 12:12:21
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 It just has a better crystal oscillator.

Many have commented in the past that this is a shortcoming of the JULI@.

There is a old post (one can access with GOOGLE) describing the replacing of the on-board crystals with "fancy" clocks. You need two. They would require their own power supply for an optimal implementation (!).

By this time the BENCHMARK device starts looking affordable and MUCH easier to implement.

Yes , there is no question that asynchronous (other than multiples of two) upsampling is to be avoided. Of course, this is one reason why cMP sounds much better to my ears, with my upsampling DAC chip. I think letting the computer do it sounds much better than letting that little bitty chip do all of that work.

THEREFORE, I have been mystified by Theo's findings. All of it seems to be logically wrong, but that does not mean, in the world of audio, logic is routinely turned on its head. Nonetheless, when I go to no upsampling (native 44.1) I find it to be MUCH less good. I believe the BENCHMARK unit contains an upsampling DAC chip, too.

So, in my most unhumble opinion the crystals in the PANASONIC must be better than the devices within JULI@, but carrying this delicate information through all of that extra cable seems impossible for this to be more accurate. I do not doubt the possibility of some euphonious effect and there is nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't get in the way of the information making it through. Of course, if it is producing a sound you like that is all that could matter.

Maybe Theo will set off a frenzy of interest in this old Panasonic player. The prices on EBAY will go through the roof. There could be Saudi princes and Japanese audio fanatics who will gobble (just in time for Thanksgiving) them up like vintage 300b's and GARRARD 301's.

We have to be careful about these things in this delicate world.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: The Search for Theo's Clock..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 12:31:15
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 they have 3 (or 6) bnc outputs which is what is needed to hook up to the juli. will synching to a wordclock output stream work on the juli digital in?

 

Start Saving Yer Shekels Theo..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 14:22:31
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 ...and TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM !!

'cause I just got a reply from Matt at Black Lion Audio - to wit:
================================================================
re: Micro Clock S/PDIF Modification...‏
Hello Grant,
Thanks for your email. We've had other people ask about this as well, not for the ESI, but for other devices. In theory, this is possible, and easily done by padding the output down from TTL level to SPDIF level. However, we haven't actually tested it, so I can't say 'yes' with absolute certainty. While S/PDIF isn't the best method of delivering a digital clock signal, sometimes we're constrained by reality so I can see the necessity of doing something like this.
Let me experiment with it over the weekend.
Matt
================================================================
Seems I've stirred the pot twice this week...

Can't wait for next week's developments.
Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Start Saving Yer Shekels Theo..., posted on November 21, 2008 at 15:38:47
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Thanks for following up. I read somewhere where these guys offer a free 7 day trial. If thats the case I may try it. There are so many uncertainties that otherwise I probably wouldn't try. With respect to Rick's comment on maybe this a euphonic effect I would say no. Anything that increases dynamics, extension and inner detail is not accidental or euphonic imo.

 

What does THAT mean... And how does it apply to External Clocking ?, posted on November 21, 2008 at 20:55:19
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo

Your comment puzzles me... Could you please expand on it ? You state:

It'll be moot when cics releases the next cplay version with full simd capability through src 192 khz

Huh ? What does that mean (pardon my thickheadedness...) ?


As for external clocking, no matter what you do with the software ahead of Juli@... you still have the "less than perfect" internal oscillator(s) to overcome. I don't get the connection between the two.

Thanks,
Grant


That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: What does THAT mean... And how does it apply to External Clocking ?, posted on November 22, 2008 at 04:16:17
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 right now I only have a good 48khz external clock. if and when cics extends simd instructions to -145 src (right now cics says that the src is only partially impacted by simd) then in my system I believe 192 will again beat the performance of 44 (which gets full simd and to my ears sounds better than 192 ---right now). So unless I get a good external clock that does 192 I'll probably prefer 192 (with internal clock) when cplay / src gets full benefit of simd.

 

Back to the input BNC, posted on November 22, 2008 at 09:32:45
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Grant,

If one was to use the input BNC as per your modified JULI@ would this mitigate this SPDIF concern? Or is there, too, a question of signal power?

So is the fellow at BLACK LION concerned about, more than anything else, the efficacy of an RCA connection?

Theo, if that is the case, simply get Grant to arrange for your JULI@ to be modified like his.

This BLACK LION device seems to do what is required for a reasonable price. Since I am working towards converting my machine to battery power per Bernd's posts, it would be simple enough to power this thing with the same (huge) battery.

It seems if all of these things can make a difference we might be ready to make a leap in quality, or just expense.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Back to the input BNC, posted on November 22, 2008 at 09:48:55
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 good question rick, but if it sounds good off of rca connectors I'll just convert the juli digital in to bnc and go from there. I'm also still trying to understand why this works. I'm reclocking the digital stream before it gets to the Benchmark where its reclocked again. It sounds like it shouldn't work but it does. I sent an email to BL to follow up still waitng their answer.

Grant or cics can either of you comment on this?

 

Why EXT-CLOCK Helps Juli@ in (almost) ALL Cases..., posted on November 22, 2008 at 22:31:33
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Theo, Rick & Lurkers

I agree with Theo's first point... a valid EXT-CLOCK experiment can be done using the RCA/breakout cable. If you like what you hear, a BNC connection will make that effect a little better (impedance matching, more direct connection, etc. etc.)

There's a distinction you must make between the reference clock of a device (aka: master oscillator), and the upsampling/resampling operation you perform on a datastream.

The former is used to divide time accurately into slices, corresponding with the chosen sample rate. The latter is what cics is doing with SRC in cPlay.

What the Benchmark does to the signal (ie: re-sample to 110 KHz for internal processing) has no bearing on the question (or value) of externally clocking the Juli@ card.

DAC1:
The DAC1 does it's magic with whatever you send into it - and a "better" input stream will be heard as "better" reproduction (providing your monitoring chain is up to the task). The incongruous fact that your SRC-upsampled 192 stream is then DOWN-sampled to 110 inside the DAC1 should give you nightmares... except that 110 KHz is what Benchmark engineers found to be the sweet spot for the chips they are using, and the proof is in the listening. Interesting to note I clearly hear the benefit of 176/192 vs 88.2/96 when playing the SR game with the Benchmark.

I personally believe the DAC1 will always reflect even the most subtle of changes because it's design is that good, and I can trust it as my, my... (forgive me for this) my benchmark. In my room, all digital sources are heard through the DAC1, because only then can I judge what I hear with confidence (especially when doing mixing/mastering work for clients).

Juli@:
Externally clocking Juli@ provides greater timing precision than it's own oscillator can. The more accurately it slices time, the better it will assemble the analogue waveform, and S/PDIF stream - and the output will be that much more faithful to what cPlay is sending.

"SIMD instructions fully optimized for 192 KHz" notwithstanding, you will always get better sound from the Juli@ (at whatever SR you choose) by giving it a better reference clock to work with. Unless the EXT-CLOCK source is inferior to Juli@'s onboard circuit... but you wouldn't waste your time on that !

Rick:
To your question... I don't know if the WC coming out of the Black Lion Micro Clock is suitable (with appropriate adjustment of voltage level) to feed Juli@'s Digital-IN (and create the desired EXT-CLOCK effect). The connector type is secondary to Juli@ "understnding" the WC signal format. Matt's email reply suggests it can be done, and I'm happy as a manufacturer BL is so willing to examine, test and proclaim this "new" use for their box will work for us. And just in time for the Holiday Season !!

I'm excited for all you guys who want to take your cMP Rig a step up the Quality Ladder - if the BL-MC can do the job, it's "reasonably" affordable, a cute little accessory and solves the biggest knock against the Anointed Soundcard (I'm just waiting to get flamed for that...)

If Rick & Bernd get the Battery Option figured out, this is going to be one serious contender for Best Music Maker !

Hope this clarifies the issue Theo.
Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Why EXT-CLOCK Helps Juli@ in (almost) ALL Cases..., posted on November 23, 2008 at 02:36:32
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 very nice response and of course you are right. I thought about it after I wrote my last post...the Benchie improves everything you send to it otherwise how would cplay ever sound better on it than other reference players. So an improved clocked stream has to be better. that's the only problem I have with Benchmark's claims that it doesn't matter what you send it that the Benchie will clean it up to some absolute level of excellence. not true every incremental improvment in cplay is clearly revealed by the DAC1 as yet another improvement in sonics.

You said...

SIMD instructions fully optimized for 192 KHz" notwithstanding, you will always get better sound from the Juli@ (at whatever SR you choose) by giving it a better reference clock to work with. Unless the EXT-CLOCK source is inferior to Juli@'s onboard circuit... but you wouldn't waste your time on that...

what I meant was that assuming I have the same panasonic clock (which only does 48khz), I personally believe that cplay with src optimized for simd will be better with juli's internal clock at 192. yes if the black lion pans out then, yes, that would probably be better yet.


grant I am impressed with your analytical capability plus your lucid writing skills. the 2 rarely come in packages.


btw have you heard from Black Lion? I sent them an email also but so far no response.

 

Answers? Quetions! Questions? Answers!, posted on November 23, 2008 at 13:19:10
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 (...with apologies to Focus)

Theo, thank you for the compliment... now it'll take me at least two hours to post anything, lest I slip back from the high standards...

RE: Benchmark "Claims" (or AU CONTRAIRE # 2):
(he-he... as if I need to be an apologist for Benchmark)

Theo sez: "...only problem I have with Benchmark's claims that it doesn't matter what you send it that the Benchie will clean it up to some absolute level of excellence. not true every incremental improvement in cPlay..."

Be careful to distinguish between TRANSMISSION jitter (from which Benchmark claims immunity) and SAMPLING jitter (a Different Devil completely). I HIGHLY recommend reading Bob Katz book Mastering Audio - the art and the science, especially chapter 19 on Jitter. Bob defines it thus:

Interface Jitter: the jitter present in the interconnections between equipment.

Sampling Jitter: the jitter in the clock which drives the converter.

A-HA... you can fill in the blanks for what I should write next - and all you knowledge seekers - go read Bob's book !

I would state the Benchmark case a bit differently:
The DAC1 does not improve the incoming signal, it merely allows you to hear (with great clarity and precision) what's coming down the pipe. Inasmuch as it re-samples the data for internal use (thereby rejecting TRANSMISSION jitter) - yes it changes the signal - but not to editorialize upon the original.

On the other hand, the processing in cPlay does indeed CHANGE the resultant sound - it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than playing the RBCD on a CD player. That you can perceive every incremental improvement in cPlay is testament to the DAC1 getting out of the way (editorial-wise), and reporting honestly on your bitstream.

Should you care to provide Juli@ a more precise timing reference, it can't help but to increase the accuracy with which it assembles the analogue & digital outputs.

Regarding Black Lion:
I should hear from Matt by Wednesday this week - he expected to do some S/PDIF experiments over the weekend.

OK... gotta go install v2.0b11-B9 and hear what the fuss is all about !
Cheers,
Grant

(ps: for a long story about how cable choice DOES matter between ADC1 & DAC1 look here -> http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/benchmark-dac1-now-available-usb-223006/index79.html#post3169085 )
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Answers? Quetions! Questions? Answers!, posted on November 23, 2008 at 13:34:15
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I stand corrected about Benchmark by the master. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Windows Help please (before I have to rebuild my cMP), posted on November 26, 2008 at 11:16:08
ckniker
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: July 11, 2007
 In my over zealousness to remove all unnecessary Windows XP services from my cMP machine, I may have hosed my machine. I can't login!

I used autoruns to help me remove a bunch of services. I THOUGHT I was only removing services related to Networking/Printing/etc. Unfortunately, when I boot the OS, I'm prompted for the Administrator password at the login screen (which I had previously disabled) and have no ability to get past this point ("Windows is unable to authenticate...."). This is in spite of the fact that there is no Administrator password....

Two questions:

1) Is there another way I can get around this problem? I've tried booting into Safe Mode but still can't get past the Login screen.

2) If and when I get past the login screen, what services do I need to reinstall for Authentication (I assume this is what is not allowing me to login)?

Here are my caveats:

My Windows XP installation disk does not contain Service Pack 2. Because of this, it can't read my 500 GB disk (and only sees it as 128 GB). Reinstalling Windows will require me to reformat the drive and cause me to lose all of my Music, previous installation, etc.

 

If you bought the GRANITE DIGITAL power supply, posted on November 26, 2008 at 12:39:01
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 and assuming you got the USB attachment, set this up, connect to another computer, copy the files onto another HDD.

Do your re-installation and reverse the process. You will have to connect to the HDD directly, but this will work. I had to recover files from a HDD that was acting strange (it would not allow WINDOWS to start) yet the music files were there and I was able to copy them to another disk.

If you have not got the GRANITE device to power your HDD separately, now you have an excuse to do this important part of cMP squared.

Best of luck,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Answers? Quetions! Questions? Answers!, posted on November 30, 2008 at 09:14:50
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 hear anything from black lion? I haven't.

 

BLACK News from Black Lion - the Micro Clock won't do S/PDIF..., posted on November 30, 2008 at 22:08:32
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo & Lurkers

It grieves me to report:

Tests run by Matt at Black Lion show the Micro Clock to be unsuitable for our purpose. To quote from the email, "Hi Grant, Unfortunately, it's a no-go. While we could pad the clock signal level down to the required .5 volt level, there was no S/PDIF input that would lock to the signal. Sorry about that. Matt"

Rats. Big Rats.

As a last ditch attempt, I mailed back asking if the MC could be coaxed into sending a sort of "digital black" S/PDIF format signal - just a static stream.

I'm doubtful, but maybe there's an inexpensive mod waiting to happen. I'll let you know the answer when it comes.

In the meantime Theo, keep a search open for used A/D converters that will do 192 KHz. BTW, there's a few days left on that ADC1 in Chicago (ebay item # 300276790351)... heh-heh, just a thought :)

Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: BLACK News from Black Lion - the Micro Clock won't do S/PDIF..., posted on December 1, 2008 at 03:23:25
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 thanks grant. the benchmark is still too expensive but I bet it does a great job for you.

there's got to be a similar product to the black lion that would work I think. for those that might know what does guitar center sell (they have a 2 week bring it back no questions asked policy) that could work?

 

RE: BLACK News from Black Lion - the Micro Clock won't do S/PDIF..., posted on December 1, 2008 at 12:56:23
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 grant: what do you think of this?

 

Hey ART... Y'Got The Time ?, posted on December 1, 2008 at 23:06:17
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Theo

I like it... (the Syncgen Box). Given the "Project Series" legend on the front panel, and the v-e-r-y reasonable cost, I wouldn't think it's the gear Alan Parsons reaches for... but it might be an improvement on Juli@'s internal system.

The key point they make is "Two "Zero Bit Digital Black" S/PDIF Outputs On Coaxial RCA Connectors"... this is what I hoped the Black Lion could do.

The RCA connectors are not ideal, but once you confirm it's suitability in your system, you may consider changing them out for BNCs (or rewire one of the existing BNCs if it's possible).

Sounds like it's time for Rick to say "TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM" again... be sure whoever you order from has the right return policy. I'm very curious to know if it's an improvement in what you hear - no doubt you'll do a thorough comparison.

OK... Go Get 'EM !!

Cheers,
Grant


That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Hey ART... Y'Got The Time ?, posted on December 2, 2008 at 03:28:20
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 it sounds like nothing to lose to try (if I buy from gc). but have you heard of these guys? what is the 'project series'?

 

RE: Hey ART... Y'Got The Time ?, posted on December 2, 2008 at 04:13:25
hybride


 
Hi. I just ordered one in the Netherlands for 78 euro to try.
I will try it at my juli@ (96khz)
Thats the max input for my Stello 220 DAC

 

RE: Hey ART... Y'Got The Time ?, posted on December 2, 2008 at 07:09:13
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I may order one tonight from guitar center here in the us (they have return policy). But let us know how it sounds.

 

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