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In Reply to: RE: Interesting results indeed posted by theob on June 02, 2011 at 09:10:06
Hi Theo,
I was wondering if you did some more experimenting with clamping extra ferrite beads onto the P24 lines?
I now have also very good results on the P24. Same results as on the P4. My cMP setup never sounded so good !
More micro details, background is ‘blacker than black’, broad and deep soundstage, highs are very detailed but at the same time smooth and ‘creamy’. It’s the same type of sound quality improvement as I when installing an SSD.
It is somewhat amazing and puzzeling that nobody else than you reported a sound quality improvement
I think they did not clamp enough ferrite beads on to the P24.
The P4 only needs 1 or 2.
But the P24 needs ‘heavy clamping’.
I have now 11 ferrite beads clamped onto the P24 lines.
* What I tried to optimize the effect of the ferrites clamps on the P24.
- To prevent DC biases as much as possible, ideally the + and – currents through a ferrite clamp should be equal. So when clamping individual voltage lines, I make sure that at least one black wire runs trough every ferrite bead when clamping individual voltage lines.
- a ferrite bead should be snugly around a wire to make sure that the magnetic field of the wire is closest too the ferrite.
But there is a lot of air around the 2 mm wires inside a ferrite beads hole of 12 mm. So mostly the wires are not really close too the ferrite. To push the wires against the ferrite wall, I also clamp some little paper of plastic object inside the ferrite clamp. This little object pushes the wires against the ferrite when I close the clamp.
- I also thought of using a 6 mm iron bolt inside the ferrite to push the wires against the ferrite. But since iron is magnetic I’m not sure if it will enhance the working of the ferrite bead or if the irion bold will degrade the working of the ferrite bead.
- Today I also ordered little round ferrite bars (8mm diameter 50 mm long costing 0,89 euro cents) too put inside the ferrite clamp. Also too push the ‘+’ wire and the black ‘0 volt’ wire against the ferrite inside walls. My be this even has a better effect than using a paper of plastic object inside.
With these ‘optimizations’ and with the use of 11 ferrite beads on the P24, the effect is really amazing !
It’s definitely not subtle and a rather big sound quality improvement.
Which easily equals the transfer from an ATX to an Linear PSU on the P4
Or equals the transfer from a HDD to a SSD.
I’m a little surprised that there are no other enthusiastic reports from other inmates.
I painstakingly checked and measured my system for setup faults (ground loups, possible extra noise sources, etc, etc) but I can’t really find anything wrong with it.
So I hope you did (or are going to do) some more experiments with ferrites on the P24.
Results so far:
Clamping the P4 works and is easy.
Clamping the P4 gives good results, both when using a linear PSU but also when using a standard ATX PSU. I tried both.
Clamping the P24 also gives very good results, but needs ‘massive clamping’.
At least in my system it needs 8 to 11 properly and carefully (!) clamped ferrites
Mark
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Follow Ups:
After a day or so of listening I have to tell you I have had several days of what I call 'religious experiences' while playing back many of my music files. The sense of depth and large space is extremely good...better than I have experienced ims before. But what is most rewarding is the unraveling of detail in densely orchestrated pieces where I have been hearing instruments in new more lifelike ways. Lots of air. Lots of definition ... not hyper detail but natural robust lower midrange/bass timbre and better highs. At 1st the tweak can almost be offputting like some information has been deleted/lost but after a few hours its like ...where did that come from.
So bottom line I love this tweak. If you try it just give it some time.
Hi Theo,Thankx you for reporting these results.
I hope other inmates will start too experiment too with ferrite beads too as I find the results in my setup truly amazing. And best of all: ferrite beads are relatively easy too apply. Especially applying them on the P4 power line is a no-brainer.
Clamping the P24 I find more complicated as I still haven’t made up my mind op on which ‘clamping strategy’ is most simple and/or most effective.
When applying ferrites on individual wire pairs on the P24 special attention is needed is too make sure the ferrite “sees” equal and opposite DC currents so that there will be zero net magnetic flux density inside the ferrite bead. This way avoiding the ferrite too be less effective or even without any effect (saturated) through DC effects.
I think the paper from:
Tim Williams, Elmac Services, ‘Using ferrites for interference suppression’
http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/ferrite.pdf
and/or the paper from
manufacterer Steward on ‘The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’
http://www.steward.com/pdfs/emi/technical/Use%20of%20Ferrites%20in%20EMI.pdf
are both very clear on these pitfalls.In what way or in what arrangement did you use the ferrite beads on the P24?
I would very much like too hear from other inmates on how they solved ‘clamping the P24’ problem.Roughly I see three methods:
1. Brut force
Clamping 6 to 8 Ferrite beads (hole diameter 12 mm) in a row on the P24.
Downside: some individual wires deep inside the P24 bundle of wires, will never be in close contact with the ferrite. Although twisting the P24 bundle of wires helps some what to bring individual wire too the surface of the wire bundle.2. clamping individual wires pairs or groups of wires on the P24.
Downside: how to prevent mismatching the wires that will result in a non-zero sum of magnetic flux density which will make the ferrite less effective or may be even saturated.3. Using a flat bead ferrite for ribbon cables with use of a P24 extension or so.
See: http://www2.conrad.nl/goto.php?artikel=501962
All individual wires of a P24 (extension) cable can be flattened out side by side and than put through a a flat bead ferrite for ribbon cables.
This way all individual P24 wires will be in close contact with the ferrite. And also the brut force method could be applied by using 2 or more flat bead ferrites for ribbon cable in a row on too the P24.
Downside: May be: bulky. But clamping the P24 is a bulky mess anyhow. No matter what method is going too be used. A lot off ferrite is needed.
All ideas welcome.
Mark(suffering from a bad case of ‘Ferritus Clampingditus’)
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 06/11/11
All I can say is that I'm looking for optimum clamping too. Using my random strategy has yielded good results so I'll stay here a while and then try moving them around.
Hi Theo,
I had planned too do some current measurements, So here are the results from my GB G41M ES2L mobo.
Yesterday I cut a P24 extension cable in half, tinned the naked wire ends and screwed all the 24 wires back together with help off little screw-on terminal blocks. This way I can insert my multi meter in each wire individually and measure current in that specific P24 wire. Pff the whole operation toke almost 4 hours. Too put the multi meter on a next wire, the computer has too be shut down. Once the multi meter is moved too the next wire, than the computer can be started up again. Ect. So it toke 24 shut down/start ups.
Especially since the first round of measurements where puzzling to me. So I decided too do a second set of current measurements.
Which again needed 24 shut downs and startups. :-(
But the current measurements stayed the same and somewhat puzzling.
The current is not evenly distributed amongst the wires of one voltage group.
Hmmm I find this somewhat strange.
Or could it be that I created ‘artificial facts‘ due too a faulty measurement setup or faulty measurement proceeding?
Anyhow, since I twice did fry a Gigabite G31 MoBo I now use a Gibagyte G41M-ESL2L
My last P24 measurements originate from the G31M mobo.
On that MoBo the 5 volt rails had the most current running.
But with this G41M MoBo the most current runs through the 3,3 V group!
So one just can not assume that every MoBo will have most current on the 5 volt group.
With this MoBo both the 3,3 V group and the 5 V group drawn much current.
So which voltage is ‘the power house’ in a cMP setup, depends on the MoBo used..
P24
pin
01 3,3V 0,23A
02 3,3V 0,19A
12 3,3V 0,18A
13 3,3V 0,17A
0,77A total
04 5 V 0,12A
06 5 V 0,12A
21 5 V 0,15A
22 5 V 0,11A
23 5 V 0,15A
0,65A total
10 12 V 0,02A
11 12 V 0,02A
The black GND wires have current almost equally distributed amongst them.
Information about PSU setup for this P24 current measurement session:
Linear PSU -> P4
Linear PSU -> pico PW-200-M -> SSD + USB bracket
Aerthwatts ATX -> extension cable -> P24
The measurements where done with a fully Optimized cMP setup according too cicsmemoryplayer website. So with LAN disabled in BIOS and Device manager. Additionally I also disable serial ATA channel 1 (in bios and device manager). And I also disable PCIe root ports in the device manager.
Although these current measurements give information on voltage and currents, thus making possible better decisions on which wires too group when clamping ferrites, I think all P24 wires need clamping because EMI noise is likely too travel around on all P24 wires.
Mark
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Well I am surprised that there is such a big difference between the 41 and 31 mobo's. I guess if you move many of your ferrites onto the 3.3v lines and get better sonics that would somewhat corroborate. I saw you initial measurement on the 31 mobo (which I have) but I did not see that current measurement distributed per each pin. Do you have that? I put one more ferrite on (current count now 7) and am not sure I can fit any more so unless I re-distribute I'm done.
Edits: 06/14/11
Hi Theo,
Back than for the G31 mobo I did it like this. With wires combined per voltage group.
Van P24 current measurements
Now for the G41M MoBo I did it like this:
Van P24 current measurements
So only for this G41M MoBo I have the currents per individual wire.
As I don’t dismiss Bibo01 remarks about ferrite that may loss their effective after a few weeks, how are you sonics after a few day’s now ? Do you think the ferrites in your setup are still effective?
I did a lot of surching and reading on the net, too find out if the effect of ferrites will wear out after some time. But the only thing I came across is, that it is important too prevent saturation as much as possible when (too much) ‘one way’ DC is applied on them. I also came across that ferrites are widely used on PCB boards in all kind of digital electronics too suppress HF noise. The web is literally littered with articles on this subsect. But I didn’t come across one article where there was a warning about wear out of ferrites in applications after a period of time. So lets cross our fingers.
Coming week I will start moving around the ferrite clamps. Since ferrites are very cheap is fun too mess around with them and I again ordered some 8 ferrite clamps with a hole diameter of 12 mm. And also bunch of round little ferrite bars with a diameter of 8 mm. I want to experiment with 3 or 4 winds around these little ferrite bars and than clamp this little coil into the ferrite clamp with 1,2 diameter.
Right now the individual P24 wires still have a lot space/air around them while being inside the ferrite clamp. There should be ferrite all around them. Not air all around them. So may be wrapping them around these little ferrite bars and than clamping the whole inside a ferrite might give better results. This way their will be hardly any air left inside the ferrite clamp and also the wire will be in very close contact with ferrite inside the ferrite clamp. But this I just me messing around with ferrite’s, I don’t dare to predict if it will be more effective. But I let you know in a few days.
Mark
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
I have not lost the sq improvement...its still there. In fact I notice my system appears to be less sensitive to daily variations in noise on the powerline (unless its been very good last couple of days which is unlikely in my ac feed). So I will continue to monitor also.
Thank you for your response.
...and it keeps getting better. Highs get less bright but more detailed. Depth increases and space between instrument especially on densely recorded pieces become more textured. I'm really loving it.
...and it keeps getting better. Highs get less bright but more detailed. Depth increases and space between instrument especially on densely recorded pieces become more textured. I'm really loving it.
Hi Theo,
Nice improvements huh ?
I also like it very much.
Hopefully there wil be no possible ‘deleterious effect’ as BiBo01 pointed at.
What is your ‘clamping strategy’ too keep DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects lowest possible?
Do you just clamp all ferrite clamps in a row (one after the other) on the P24?
Or
do you clamp individual combinations of + and – wires?
Also: if you use Ferrite clamps with large hole diameters (8 – 12 mm) , how do push the 2 mm + and – wires ontoo the ferrite inside the bead? The wires need too be in immidate and close contact with ferrite.
Mark
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Don't know what you mean about low frequency bias perhaps you can elaborate a bit more. I'm just putting more clamps on as many groups of wires as possible. I try to keep black and red wires (at least 2 or more) in each ferrite.I try to space the ferrites but they are close. I put the clamps where I can easily access p24 wires. But it seems to work. I get more of an impact when the clamp is tight on the wires.
Hi Theo,See page 109 and 110 and figures: 14, 15, 16 and 17.
In particular: “the ferrite “sees” equal and opposite DC currents and thus zero net magnetic flux density. The ferrite will be able to provide maximum series impedance for high frequency common mode currents and remain unaffected by the DC operation of the encircled conductors”
So when not bundlling all 24 wires into one ferrite, one has too make a combination of wires that (at best) also will result in a ‘zero net magnetic flux density’.
So I’m curious what comibination of wires you bundle too achieve a ‘zero net magnetic flux density’.
Or, 2nd best (when it is not possible to make any combination of wires which results in zero-DC magnetic flux) what combination of wires do you bundle into one ferrite bead to achieve the lowest possible non-zero DC?
I’m especially interested in how to bundle the bleu -12 volt wire, the grey PWR-OK wire, the green PS-On/Of wire and the purple STD-BY wire. As I also expect HF-noise too spread through these wires, so I want too clamp these wires too.
Mark
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 06/10/11 06/10/11
I do try my best to keep a + and - wire in a ferrite. am I combining the right ones? I'm not sure. Unless there is a way to know I just guess.
"More micro details, background is ‘blacker than black’, broad and deep soundstage, highs are very detailed but at the same time smooth and ‘creamy’"
Well said, hfavandepas, I couldn't agree more. I didn't responded sooner because: I didn't have the opportunity to listen to my system carefully until now; and I am still using a netbook as my primary source (having such a good time with it that there is no hurry on my part to upgrade to the 'real thing') and thought that my system is not typical enough.
Anyway, I now have 4 ferrite chokes in my system, 2 on the power cable from the linear power supply to the netbook, and 2 on the power line feeding the switching PS of the hard drive which is connecting to the netbook through USB. Apart from the improvements as stated by you, I also notice that recording that I found sounding thin (Bonnie Raitt's 'Give It Up') previously now really blossom into full body sonic. All recordings now have very good to fantastic sound stage, not just the well-recorded ones.
Good listening.
This is spooky weird because 5 minutes before your post I stripped the nylon sheathing off my p24 bundle and put 3 massive ferrites around at least 2 black and 2 red wires (plus other wiress) each and letting my system warm up. I'll let you know sq results in a while.
In the us they say homerun!! or touchdown!!! I guess you guys in Europe say goaaaaaaaaaaallllll!! Nice positive impact on sq.
You wrote in this post:http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/9/90804.html
Posted by theob
RE: Still rocking. And even better with caps in place !
------------------------------
If others don't try it does not bother me....its their loss. Wow 15
ferrites. I only have 7 I think. I'll have to try more.
------------------------------Hi Theo,
Here’s a picture of the ‘charcoal pile’ of ferrites in my cMP setup.
Don’t know if you can count them all (click on picture too enlarge)
but there 15 ferrites.
I devided the wires into 3 groups. 3.3V + 5V + rest,
Van on filtering, demping, ect
- First on the P24 extension cable you see 2 (or 3) tight fitting ferrites in the beginning on the 3.3V + 5V + rest (the rest has 3 on)- More over too the middle of the P24 extension cable.
I tried too split the wires into more parallel wires trying this too reduce current through each ferrite
This is the second group of ferrites I bought.
Those square ferrites have bigger hole diameter of 12 mm
In these ferrites I put a little bar of ferrite diameter 8 mm
(same little ferrite bars you can see more too the left of the picture)
With the wires wrapped around this little ferrite bar, this little coil tightly fits into the clamp
This way pushing the wires tightly onto the outside of the ferrite clamp.
3 to 4 centimeter wire length is tightly push against the ferrite clamp.- Finaly at the end of the P24 I managed to sqeeuze in some of the same clamps as in the front.
This makes a total of 15.
As I bought enought ferrites, I’m also experimenting with clamps on the power wires comming from the Pico 200 that feeds the SSD and the USB bracket.
On the P4 are 2 ferrite clamps with hole diameter of 12mm with again 2 little ferrite bars inside it where the wire is wrapped arround a few times too press it fermly against the ferrite on the inside of the clamp.
I also added some smoothing caps + little by-pass caps.
I think those caps should be best added on both sides of the ferrite bunk.
But this still has too come, because I ran out of little oscon caps.
I expect them too arrive soon together with flat ferrites for ribbon cables.
I hope too get rit of 'the charcoal pile' of ferrites with these flat ferrites for ribbon cables.
Lintkabel met ferrrietkern RFP1-26-28-A5 (Conrad Electronic)
I want too stack them in a pile and than weave the extension cable from one into the other.
So the flat P24 extension cable will make an S=shaped route trough this stack of ferrites for ribbon.
It will look much better and I think it is also much easier too apply.When they arrive I will post a picture of the stack with the P24 extension cable running through that pile of ferrite for ribbon cable.
Mark
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Edits: 06/23/11
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