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In Reply to: RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player posted by cics on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
Dear cMP Forum,
Iīm not getting superstitious, but with my spare efforts, Iīve tried to spread the genious of the cMP Project.
-and only hailed....well, a lot of raised brows.
How come ?
I know it take a little effort to understand cics approach and the website is not terrible inviting either, but even with the promise of stunning audiophile results it just seem that most people think itīs another bogus product....
Where is the right angle to describe this phenomenal project ?
Any thoughts ?
kind regards
cMP2 Computer: i3-540 Core cPlay039 >FIR filter w/ convolver> Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz throughout. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601īs ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
Follow Ups:
Hi Play-mate,
I'm new to this forum and I've been kindly answered by Dawnrazor after my first post. Dawnrazor wrote me that you are a 'DRC' specialist and he invited me to contact you on this topic.
As apparently you might already use DRC (FIR filter w/ convolver in your chain)I wonder if I could bother you with some questions?
Cheers,
Golo
Hi golo,
also Iīm happy to help where I can.
whatīs the problem ?
L.
cMP2 Computer: i3-540 Core cPlay039 >FIR filter w/ convolver> Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz throughout. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601īs ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
Hi play-mate,
Thanks for answering.
My problem is that I haven't found out yet clear answers to my questions regarding cPlay in general and with the use of DRC within it.
1)cPlay:
only work with an ASIO 2 compliant soundcard: does it mean that it won't work with an external usb DAC directly connected to the mobo's usb port ie it needs an ASIO 2 compliant soundcard in between?
b) resampling:
- does cPlay resample either through SRC or Sox or is there a way to 'unable' resampling?
- what 'resampling' means in cPlay: changing the sample rate or changing the sample rate AND the resolution (ie 16-bit> 32-bit)?
c) cPlay offers 2 channel output mapping only: but it's said elsewhere that "6.Supports up to 3 ASIO soundcards with each having up to 100 output channels" !!! As most of DRC softwares allow for digital Xovers I'd like to know if cPlay can output more than 2 channels
d)cPlay with Juli@: in the cPlay Diagnostics window of the guide one can see that the Juli@ soundcard, which is 24-bit capable, has got ASIO Driver starting at 32-bit. What does it mean? Is cPlay 'upbitting' at 32-bit and then has 8 bits truncated when going through Juli@?
2) DRC
Further on in the Guide it is said that "cPlay supports use of a single VST plugin (up to version 2.4.2, 2-in/max 8-out) in 32 bit float precision. ASIO performance is maintained for 2-in/2-out plugins (stereo output). For multi-channel output, best ASIO performance is achieved when latency is 64 samples or less."
a) 32 bit float precision: does it mean that if I want to use DRC my filters are to be done at 32-bit?
b) 2-in/max 8-out: what "8-out" means if cPlay can output 2-channel only?
On a more general matter, when I'm working on a project on Adobe Audition at 32-bit, can I listen to it directly through cPlay OR do I have to save it, exit Adobe Audition and then open the saved file into cPlay?
That will be all for now!
Cheers,
golo
Hi Golo,Point for point answers :
1. (cMP & cPlay = ) cMP2 can run with an USB DAC via MoBo and asio4all, but asio4all and USB is limited in several regards. For multi channel editing FireWire is the better option.
b. the entire idea of cPlay is to upsample !
itīs interpolation technique is an integral part of itīs significant performance.
when input and output samplerate is the same, cPlay leaves the signal untouched.c. when run with a (say) 6 channels ASIO soundcard, cPlay offers output to those 6 channels.
You obviously cannot squeeze more channels through your system than the amount of channels the hardware is designed for.
In the VST section of cPlayīs manual this is described and exemplified with the "allocator" crossover software.d. the question about 24bit versus 32bit is only theoretical computer language, and has no practical sound relevance. even on a 64bit computer and a 32bit capable converter chip ..just scrub it !
2. ASIO is a protocol (a digital handshake or agreement) that is best understood as the player (cPlay) is becoming an integral software within the ASIO device.
VST is always single-client, whereby the VST software then becomes an integral software extention to the player.a. no !
-floating means that for example a 24bit signal is treated as a 32 bit signal and mathematical "adapted" to 32bit precision.b. read the VST section of the manual.
the number of channels is determined by the soundcard.
when I first started with this I used a 6 channel Lynx PCI soundcard and cPlay and its VST software recognizes this immediately.
Nowadays I use an external Lynx 8 channel DAC via Firewire and cPlay recognizes the external converter in the same manner : as an ASIO device.You cannot use cPlay as a mixing tool or in connection with Adobe Audition.
In short you need a professional D/A A/D Converter to operate multiple channels. Go and talk to a Proaudio Store about your requirements. cMP2 is not the right platform for audio editing.
Hope this helps.
cMP2 Computer: i3-540 Core cPlay039 >FIR filter w/ convolver> Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz throughout. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601īs ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
Edits: 05/12/11
Thanks a lot play-mate,
You have answered a lot and it helped me to understand better what cMP2 does and doesn't.
I think I will stick with 2-channel (stereo) output for now just to get used to cmp2. One step at a time!
I saw you're using 'FIR filter w/ convolver' yourself. Is it for DRC purpose? If so could you develop: which DRC engine are you using to create your filters, resolution and sample rate of your filters etc?
Hey Golo,
Digital room correction (DRC) is becoming much more interesting as real computers are gaining access into high-end playback.
-the early turnkey attempts got mocked quite a bit....
While such a system cannot turn a bathroom into a brilliant listening environment, it certainly can do a significant tribute for stereo imaging and "polish" some important acoustical issues.
I regard the "acourate" software to be the most versatile and the one with the most tune-able features, so that room and speaker integrate most optimal.
There is no idea in trying to turn a mid-fi speaker into a high-end one.
I wrote about it here :
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/17/171469.html
Kind regards
cMP2 Computer: i3-540 Core cPlay039 >FIR filter w/ convolver> Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz throughout. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601īs ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
cMP2 can run with an USB DAC via MoBo and asio4all . . .
Interesting post - thanks.
Just for the record, while cMP^2 runs with pretty well any USB DAC that has its own ASIO drivers, for those that don't, the AQVOX generic driver gives much better sound quality than ASIO4ALL.
Also, several cMP^2 users do not use upsampling: I even know of one who sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as, it seems, the mood takes him.
Dave
Hello,
Going from a multi use laptop with Ayre UDB DAC, to a Cmp2 player, I found I have no sound. Probably due to the use of a Juli@soundcard and the internal configurations, meaning I may have to take that card out and play through the on board sound-card again (the Ayre DAC turns that into the slave). But before trying things out and losing the way with consequence that I have to configure the Cmp2Player for the 4th time, I would like to ask for advice.
Would you know of a way to do this right? The Cmp2Player has not been in use yet, so I have no experience there.
Thank you very much for your much appreciated help!
Gaston
If you are now doing digital out either make sure you have configured the juli@ control panel to map through outputs 1 and 2 (or maybe 3 and 4). Its one or the other try both. Dont need to reboot. One set is for digital out. One is for analog out.
as was said before, they want to be able to plug it in and it works. It does not seem to matter that it works well or that it is set up to perform at its best ...
Most "audiophile" systems sound terrible, no matter how much money has been spent. If not terrible (I know that in many cases this is an exaggeration) then you have the phenomenon of expensive components sounding about as good as those big boxes you can get at the stores. (some of which sound very good considering what they are).
This hobby started out as a DIY activity since there were few options for those wanting to get something better in the marketplaced. Sure, the super expensive stuff can sound good it is just that most of time it doesn't due to the owner's inability or laziness, and not knowing what good sound "is".
So, why be surprised?
We are a lucky little fraternity that cics has shared the knowledge he has gained through his avocation.
Just like a low budget movie that is superior to the multi-billion embarrassments; we are lucky that we do not have money to throw at our systems and have to work at it to get what we want and in so doing we often end up enjoying superior sound to those who simply spend money versus working at getting good sound from every aspect of their system.
In my case, I could not afford any of the highly regarded transports when cics fist published THE ART OF COMPUTER TRANSPORTS and that is what made me want to try it We have certainly come a long way since then and I am very glad I followed cics in his endeavor. My system has become so intertwined I could not insert something else to use as a transport for comparison but from what I have heard I think it is obvious that one can get as good a result from following cics's recipe as any of the absurd transports.
Those of us interested in DIY enjoy learning. I have learned more about computers than I ever would have otherwise and this information has come in handy for other purposes.
Like most things if the person is not interested without prompting nothing any of us will do will get them to try it.
I agree with Bibo01 for the most part.
Audiophiles IME are more into looks than sound these days. You see that on the Planar asylum. Sad but it seems to be true. And they tend to want to throw money at the project. Cmp2 doesnt offer any of that...no bling, no easy gratification. Add to that the fact that some of its ideas are so advanced that the mainstream audio and computer people dont get some of its concepts that it easy for an audiophile to be daunted and just buy a lappy and a usb device and think it is the cats meow. And pretty picts too.
In addition it is easy to reach bad conclusions with the cmp2 website. Many people download cplay and it ends there because they hate the gui. They miss the part about cmp being the gui, and that cplay is not supposed to be stand alone. (Audio Pharaoh comes to mind)
And some buy the juli@ card and make conclusions with doing none of the cmp2 tweaks and using all the wrong hardware (Barondalla comes to mind).
IMHO the best way to get converts (which honestly Leif I dont know why you would care) is to just bring one over and let them listen with their dac. Or invite a local club to come by and listen. Or if you know some audiophiles get some of their cds and rip them into your cmp2 box and bring it over. Once they HEAR the benefits and see how easy it is to use then they will find a way to get past the diy stuff.
And here is a conspiratorial thought. With minlog wouldnt it be totally possible to just have a site with an image file of a cmp2 build? People could download and viola instant cmp2 box. If the hardware is right shouldnt that work....sure it is totally illegal and I wouldnt do anything like that (you know first hand I am a goody goody) but I can THINK it right?
Arent there some countries where this kind of thing could be hosted legally??
Or couldnt there be a way to make the changes on an existing OS. Isnt there such a thing for Windows 7...the Fidelizer or something. You download it and run it and it tweaks things. Cics might be able to create a program that does most of the heavy lifting.
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
People could download and viola instant cmp2 box.Without commenting on Win OS licencing issues (they were covered in this case), it is quite feasible to do what you say. A month or two back, I sent another AA inmate a CD containing an imagefile of an XP-SP2, cMP^2 build with minlogon, AWE etc pre-configured but, because his motherboard and soundcard were different from mine, no bespoke drivers loaded.
The recipient copied the imagefile onto his boot partition, loaded the chipset and soundcard drivers, performed the Autoruns thingies and, after testing, disabled one or two inessential services. It all went pretty smoothly.
He did of course have to buy a copy of my imaging utility but I believe there are freeware equivalents. In any case, attempting a cMP^2 build without a decent imaging utility (and preferably a docking station as well) is asking for trouble.
No, I'm not planning to offer this as a service.
Edits: 05/03/11
Hi,I think that a lot depends on your "adience".
Most audiophile people are NOT very good with computers. Those who are not against liquid music often prefer sort of plug'n'play solutions - a Mac Mini or a notebook. They may be confident with switching various cables, but not addressing the technicalities of a cMP2 system.Even if one can follow the cMP instructions almost blindly, I believe a certain experimentalist attitude is required in a typical cMP user.
Furhermore, do not forget that in general this type of "digital" knowledge - master clock, latency, ASIO...- is not so spread out.As I am "spreading" cMP2's word in Italy, in my experience I can say that I am having more followers and recognition in a forum with PC-based roots rather than "old fashion" audiophile-based forums.
Definetly, in order to acquire credibility "spreading" is required at various levels: PC/Multimedia forums, Audio forums, Audio magazines, Electronic DIY magazines, end users, audio shop demonstrations (I have to do one in the next few days)...
On top of this, I believe that a typical audiophile user is a bit of a loner, whereas the cMP2 project is a sort of workgroup...not many people have this "community" approach.
Edits: 05/02/11
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