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cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player

41.183.0.21
Posted on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
cMP

The open source high-end Memory Player

December 2007

Music delivery is perfected. cMP (cics Memory Player) delivers memory playback (without RAMDisk or other utilities) thereby eliminating disk interference during playback.

In creating cMP, its critical objective was the implementation of fundamental designs that:

  1. Remove disk traffic interference during playback without having the inconvenience of manually loading files into a virtual RAM drive, etc..
  2. Ensure time critical sample delivery to the external DAC. Streaming of samples from precision upsampled (to 24/96) sound buffers to the soundcard must be fast, lean and mean! There's no room for any bottlenecks or overheads here, otherwise we risk increasing jitter and compromise Bit Transparency.
  3. Provide better power supply and remove the need for a ferrite core on the mouse connection.
  4. Provide flexibility to choose any player (Foobar2000, Winamp etc.).
  5. Further minimize the Windows footprint to that more optimal than XP's Embedded SP2 operating system as used in large scale commercial applications. This provides the foundation for the 2nd design goal.
  6. Offer a CD/DVD-ROM drive without impacting sound quality.
  7. Offer proper remote usability as locating that mouse cursor from a distance is cumbersome.
  8. Contain costs but also allow for a complete elegant one box solution.

Such designs in theory should render a stunning sonic experience. Its implementation however was a massive challenge. Did this theory meet the sonic expectations? Yes as evidenced in cMP's bit perfect performance and ultra low jitter.

How does it sound? The most descriptive word that comes to mind is emotional. cMP's sonic purity is truly profound. It grips those musical lines across any genre with remarkable precision. Soundstage improves, there's better layering and even more ambient information. Bass is tighter, with natural vocals & instruments.

FRONT



BACK



More pictures and screenshots are available from the cMP documentation link provided below.

FEEDBACK

Pre-release testing by music lovers located all over the world yielded further insight and perfection of cMP.

  • A music lover based in the US with limited or no computer training:

    This has been a great way to learn about computers in addition to making something very useful for enjoying music.

    Compared to my ###### (read expensive high-end traditional CD transport), even with some tweaking and learning left to do, this sounds much better. Dynamic, yet relaxed (effortless?).

    I started listening last night at 7:00 and had to force myself to go to bed at twelve. Amazing spaciousness. It is truly getting close to GREAT analog and is much better than average analog already. It is simply amazing.

    I found your instructions easy to follow ONCE I understood what I was being told to do. To repeat, I have never done anything like this before, so your instructions were clear without resorting to "hand holding". I think the process was easier than you warned. I kept saying to myself, "that wasn't so bad!"

    After cMP:

    My only audio friends are very analogue-centric. Sometime in January I am going to have them over to audition the cMP. I think they are going to be amazed. Of course, I am confident that JULI@ is going to be the icing on the cake. If this takes the whole thing another step closer I think they will be grateful that one can enjoy listening to CD's as much as LP's. Of course, in many ways your approach does things even LP's cannot do. It is becoming a toss-up, but the best kind; one can enjoy either one equally well!

  • A music lover based in Europe with more than 2000 CDs:

    the quality of sound reproduction is quite amazing. My motivation for building was that I am not wealthy and could never dream of, let alone buy, a high-end CD player. Even this project was considerably more than I could properly afford and I began it with some trepidation. But it's been well worth it.

    After cMP:

    I spent several hours last night testing the latest cMP. I did several A/B runs with cMP on the one hand and Foobar launched via old batch files and reading direct from disk on the other. There is no doubt in my mind that the sound using cMP is a significant improvement even with my modest setup.

    The quality is quite stunning, significantly better than previous. (My partner agrees with this - she's no audio junkie but she is an informed music lover.)

  • A music lover based in Australia:

    I have been wanting to relay to you my own experience with your methods and give you some feedback . So far, I have found your approach produces very good results so I must convey to you my thanks and appreciation. At some point soon I will formalise my thoughts and send them to you or post them. I believe what you have done has become an excellent resource/asset to people interested in PC Audio.


FEATURES

  1. Disk traffic interference during playback is eliminated. Advanced RAM playback is based on available physical RAM (as reported by Task Manager or Process Explorer). This means up to 4GB (XP's limit) can be used allowing for 24/192 RAM playback. Recommendation is to use 1GB RAM (which yields available physical RAM of ~830MB - enough for any CD at 16/44.1). cMP achieves memory playback via the system cache and not through a simulated virtual drive. This approach removes Windows disk I/O overheads (irrespective of whether disk is physical or virtual) hence, it's more optimal.

  2. Extensive Windows & Player (Foobar2000 or other) optimizations yielding much lower jitter and bit perfect delivery. System level optimizations are done at runtime (which cannot be achieved using .bat files and utilities like Process Explorer). cMP is designed to work with 32 CPU cores!

  3. Open architecture. cMP allows for any player to be used: Foobar2000, XXHighEnd, Winamp etc. (player just needs to handle .cue files like foobar2000 otherwise play entire .wav). Any ripper software can be used (as long as it conforms to .cue single file standard like those created by EAC). Additional flexibility is provided, for example use cMP to drive your HTPC playing any movie from any genre (a .cue file for each .iso file is needed).

  4. All .cue files are processed by cMP which means the player focuses only on playing the CD. In Foobar2000, the album list control component is not needed. In techno speak this is called separation of concerns.

  5. Power delivery to the mobo is improved by further reducing interference. The need for a ferrite core is removed.

  6. Full function remote control using a wireless mouse is achieved. Your entire library can be navigated: play any CD, eject it, jump to any track or change volume. This is achieved using just ONE mouse button: the Wheel! Use the mouse as a normal one (left-click) or hold it in your hand (like a remote control) and wheel away using your thumb. Of course other buttons are used for more convenience. There's no need to find that tiny mouse cursor and left click! (You can still do this if needed).

  7. Your entire library that you so diligently ripped is fully compatible with cMP. No proprietary / lock-in stuff here which forces you to re-rip. Just point cMP to your music folders containing .cue and .wav files (or flac or other). cMP supports any content file as long as cue files are defined for them. For flac content files, the known EAC bug of adding an additional .flac suffix to the content file's name must be removed (otherwise your cue's content file directive will not be found).

  8. CD/DVD-ROM drive is implemented without compromising playback quality. For the purist, this can be unplugged without opening computer or rebooting.

Bottom line: cMP is a (one box) highly advanced memory player that's easy to setup and use. cMP's core strength lies in newly developed operating system software components (built in c/c++) that uses XP SP 2 as a foundation. Windows Explorer is done away with while cMP takes over and more. Bit perfect delivery is achieved yielding an ultra high resolution of more than 23.5 bits (a limitation in measuring instruments prevents measuring cMP's perfect resolution). DAC's have yet to achieve this resolution (as a minimum of 141db SNR is needed)! For cMP's bit perfect measurements, see (Bit Perfect Measurement & Analysis ).


GETTING STARTED

Visit cicsMemoryPlayer.com where you'll find detailed easy to follow instructions and much more.

Ensuring clean AC power delivery to equipment is very important. For DAC, pre-amp and amplifiers, use a dedicated AC circuit. For source equipment, use another AC circuit as this is where cMP's main PSU should be powered from. Use another less important AC circuit for powering cMP's 2nd dirty power inlet. Use of quality power cords and line conditioners is recommended.


Special thanks to those that provided such brilliant feedback and suggestions during pre-release testing. cMP's software is at version 1.0b as more feedback is desired. Your input, insights, criticisms, experiences and suggestions all help.

Thank you.

 

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    ...
RE: forum thread navigation - and renewed request to cPlay, posted on October 4, 2009 at 07:07:16
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 dear cics,

thanks for your reply.

still struggling to imagine how to implement the allocator in such a KS configuration.
I have not a lot of experience with asio4all, but maybe you can deepen your thoughts on this....

the allocator is a VST shell and requires the lynx twoB asio driver to route the 6 channels (bass-,mid- and treble bands) separately.

I´ve tried to run the JACK router as "preparatory action" within cMP but have not got that to work.

as winamp and apparently the J.River players have special plug-in´s for allocator, it´s just a thought if anything simmilar could be arranged for cPlay.

having optimized my computer (GA -EG45M-UD2H with E7400, running at same values as Greg´s setup) and stripped windows (minlogon is due tomorrow), it´s actually only the cMP mode that remains.
the allocator is a phenomenal tool to control the phase issues of my magnepans, and is an integral part of my setup.

....or, maybe I´m only dreaming of christmas presents already :-)
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: forum thread navigation - and renewed request to cPlay, posted on October 4, 2009 at 12:14:51
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey C,

Glad to see this post. I tried to explain in my e-mail but not sure if I was too clear.

2nd try.

cPlay > ASIO4ALL > KS Lynx.

That is a start, but what we need is cPlay > ASIO4ALL > Allocator > KS Lynx.

AFIAK ASIO4all only talks to sound cards, not other applications.

Ideally it would be cPlay > KS > Allocator > ASIO Lynx.

Or as you pointed out, Allocator could function like an asio driver. That would be the best.

At first glance it really does look like jack is the way to go. This week is hectic but I will test Jack with cmp one day. I think it can be done and will certainly put in the effort if it helps.



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

cMP & JACK, posted on October 5, 2009 at 03:55:58
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 don´t we all live in hope....
or, the hope is the last thing that dies..... :-)

without having any idea how programming language works, or how complicated it would be to write a KS output, it´s just an suggestion.

got my MINLOGON implemented this morning, and it´s just another few layers closer to the music. WOW !
definition, transparency and liquidity another significant step forward. -and more dynamics too!

...it´s sort of sad that my hard disk / digital crossover / musicplayer is close to all optimizations....yeah well, except the real cMP mode.....

it has exceeded my wildest expectations !
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: cMP & JACK, posted on October 5, 2009 at 06:45:36
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 P,

See, I have been a fanboy ever since I did a cmp2 box with the wrong hardware.

Now that I have the right hardware, things are even better. Cics has done a bang up job on this and is leaps and bounds ahead of the "just add a usb dac and lots of ram to any old computer" crowd.

I am totally busy this week, but I will be trying to get jack and allocator to work on my new rig....I'll let you know.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

VST plugin support for Allocator may be the easiest way, posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:18:59
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 This would also remove Jack and make things a lot simpler.

Will look into it...

 

RE: VST plugin support for Allocator may be the easiest way, posted on October 5, 2009 at 20:39:19
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 YES!!!!!

And while I dont know much at all about vst plugins except that cplay with vst support would solve everything for us poor lynx users, I imagine that there are other vst plugins besides allocator that would be a benefit.

For instance arent there ones that do room correction??

Anyhow, thanks so much for looking into it!!

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

Here is one example, posted on October 5, 2009 at 20:56:54
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 of room correction that is a vst plugin.

Man would that be great to be able to get crossovers and room correction on a cmp2 box from cplay!

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

Won't plug-in need to handle sample rates up to192kHz? nt, posted on October 6, 2009 at 00:16:44
Ebit
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: Down Under
Joined: October 26, 2008
 Frank

 

Only if you are upsampling and, posted on October 6, 2009 at 06:57:18
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 that was just an EXAMPLE. It was my mistake I suppose. Life has taught me that I seem to be one of the only ones who think GENERALLY.

I didnt do an exhaustive search or anything, just a cursory one to enforce the concept. But in this specific case as I should have known better that no one would see it as a general case, one might get better results with upsampling to 96k in cplay, as the plugin only supports up to 96k, but running room correction.

That might be a better trade off than 192k and no room correction. Who knows. It certainly would be nice to be able to weight that tradeoff on my own.

And there might be a plugin that does support higher sampling rates...

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

MINLOGON -crash ! XPlite file protection ??, posted on October 7, 2009 at 07:57:26
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 short was the delight of listening to minlogon.....

wanted to re-enable the file protection with XPlite after successfully implementing minlogon, but when clicking the WFP tab in XPlite, the system crashes with a bluescreen.....

the boot time is as long as it was in normal winlogon mode, but there is no password prompt.


what to do ??
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: MINLOGON -crash ! XPlite file protection ??, posted on October 8, 2009 at 02:22:58
seger
 If you didn't reverse the minlogon and winlogon filename changes and delete the "config" registry entry, you will have to do it from outside your system. If you have dual-boot, do it from the other system. Otherwise, put the hard drive into another computer and do it from that computer's system.

Suggestions for the future: 1. Don't reinstate WFP once it's been disabled by xplite, 2. Use the Safe Mode method to implement minlogon and you won't have to use xplite at all.

 

RE: Juli@ PSU highlights, posted on October 10, 2009 at 13:38:16
rickchan.bw@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 38
Joined: October 10, 2009
 hi alfred, i have been looking at your enternal power mods for sometime..
Until today i started to mod like u. i cut all the +5v feeds from the juli@
card then solder 5v to DVCC1. When i turn on the external power of juli@ it
has power light from the optical jack, however when turning on my pc
optical lights goes off until booted in window it couldnt detect my sound
card.
is my external power supply ground have to connect to my computer psu
ground together? then only it will work?
is the +5V ground is separated with the 3.3v ones? tats y it cant work?

 

Updates to Juli@ Follies Post WAAAY below..., posted on October 11, 2009 at 10:46:58
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 633
Location: NE Mississippi
Joined: September 21, 2001
 I've the following info to my Juli@ Follies post below:

1. Info about one more regulator chip on the analog card which appears to power what appear to be the mixer chips, U24 and U26.

2. Info about the balanced outputs and the unbalanced and balanced inputs.

3. Info about the use of 5v on the digital card

4. Preliminary notes on where the outputs from the DAC go.


This all was prompted by:

1. I'm modifying a Juli@'s analog balanced outputs for another inmate, so I needed info on the balanced side.

2. I suspect there are some additional gains available by upgrading that last regulator chip that provides the negative rail to the mixer chips... the positive rail for those chips are covered by U10.

3. Replacing the output muting transistors with relay-based ones is a common modification for circuits such as this, providing some sonic gains.

4. I strongly suspect if one is using the Juli@ just as an output device, there are some serious sonic gains available by bypassing the mixers and output circuitry and taking the DAC output to a simplified and more direct output stage. I have this on my queue of Juli@ mods to try.

I hope this information will be useful for others!

Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!

 

BNC mod for Juli@ low profile, posted on October 23, 2009 at 21:08:57
ecir38
Audiophile

Posts: 570
Location: LOUISIANA
Joined: May 9, 2007
 Here is a pic of my BNC mod for a low profile slot.
Photobucket

Solder points were used as Gstew did here.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/51805.html

I used a normal blank and cut and bent it to low profile size, cut a hole for toslink with dremel, drilled two holes above and below the dongle and used a tie wrap to hold slot cover to card.

Should have drilled the hole for the BNC a little lower since it interferes when installing a little.

BNC was purchased from the ebay store in the link below. These are insulated and have a small form so they don't interfere with the opening for the pci slot.

I did the mod with an RCA when I first installed this card but have to say the BNC was a definite upgrade over the RCA. I have never used the dongle.

Thanks to all for sharing these mods.

Brad

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on October 31, 2009 at 13:37:10
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 19
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 Hello, having found out about cMP only a few months ago, I was quite interested and finally built a running system.

My last attempt included the recommended Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L with ESI Juli etc.

The sytem was ready and running, and sounding amazingly good, all the recommended tweakings were applied, including Minlogon, then I tried to lower the cpu voltage in the BIOS from 0.85V (running fine) to 0.80V.
When - in the "MB Intelligent Tweaker (M.I.T.)" menu of the BIOS I had changed the value to 0.80V the confirmation prompt (n/y) appeared, but the keyboard did not seem to react or transmit the keystroke "Y". I also noticed some flickering on the screen. So I just made a reboot without trying to confirm the new setting, but after reboot my screen remained black. No entering Setup was possible. Keyboard LED also remains black etc.

Question:
- Can the attempt to lower cpu voltage below the least stable value (for Windows) damage the Motherboard?
- How can I make the sytem boot into the BIOS, or reset the BIOS to default values?

- or simply what can I do from now on?

I am really frustrated because everything seemed to work so fine, and the sound was far beyond what I knew from computer sound....

Thanks for any useful advice....

Bernhard

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:14:10
Audio Bling
Audiophile

Posts: 307
Location: Australia
Joined: October 9, 2007
 This problem will occur if you lower CPU voltage excessively or without sufficient “burn inâ€Â. It does not damage the motherboard. I recall Dawnrazor posted some info on this problem and its correction a short time ago; it would be worth your while to look that post up.

Essentially, you will need to reset the CMOS which will allow you to boot and re-establish your BIOS settings. (See mobo manual if you don’t know how to do this.) However, this time don’t go so far as to drop to 0.80V. Give it a week or so of use at say, 0.85V to burn in before attempting to lower CPU voltage again. Be aware that you might not be able to go below 0.80V as there seems to be some variability in what people can get to. (I have gotten down to 0.79375 @ 150MHz.)

Hope this helps.

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:42:06
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 19
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 Aaaaahhhh! What a relief. Your posting is full of great info and very helpful. I checked the manual indeed and all one has to do is to short 2 pins on the Mobo with a screwdriver, then the cmos is reset.

Thank you very much indeed. I will not go lower than 0.85 for a while now. Then I try in very small steps.

Bernie

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on October 31, 2009 at 16:27:25
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey AB,

I can kind of get cics .75 v and 840mhz setting. Just not from a cold boot.

The best has been 900mhz and .85 v at cold start up so far. But that happens intermittently.

I ran it at 2.8ghz and 1.35 v for a few days and while that seemed to help, the lowest ones are still far away. ANd I did have a ceiling fan on when running 2.8ghz just in case, but still 35c was the highest temp IIRC. The top wasn't on either.

What I have noticed is that now it just seems to leave everything alone when it cant boot and resets only the

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 03:53:12
DeDe


 
I’ve not been able to get a reliable cold boot at anything less than 200MHz and 1v, despite a couple of months of burn-in. What I can do is to use the Gigabyte EasyTune utility to reduce the voltage as low as 0.8v after I have successfully booted.

It would perhaps be nice if there was a utility that allowed conservative bios setting for a reliable cold boot and then automatically reset things to more optimum values for what we want. At shut-down the utility would restore the reliable cold boot settings.

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 04:03:58
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 19
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 What exactly are your components?
I have
- Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L (not "ES2L") with EIST disabled,
- ESI Juli@ soundcard, with analogue part removed (external DAC used)
- notebook HD (WD 500GB),
- 256MB RAM,
- Intel dual core E7200 with an arctic cooling blabla cooler (which is too loud).
- PSU is Earth Watts 430W (I think it is Asus). That's it.

BIOS and Windows configured as described on cics new cMP2 website.
I am not down to 0.85V which works - fortunately stable - however I haven't yet installed the modified BIOS/ firmware.

Those are the recommended components and if you use the same, it should work... I do not think the variation inside the same series is so big.

good luck
Bernie

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 04:50:40
DeDe


 
My components are not very dissimilar from yours. The most significant difference, I suppose, is that I’ve got the GA-G31M-ES2L motherboard.

- Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L with EIST disabled
- Intel dual core E7300
- Thermalright AX-140 heatsink
- Notebook HD (Samsung 160GB),
- 1GB Kingston RAM
- Corsair HX-450 power supply
- ESI Juli@ soundcard

I made all the Windows configuration changes detailed on cics new cMP2 website and also the bios settings as far as I was able to.

I didn’t go immediately for the 256MB RAM because I wanted to preserve the ability to compare cPlay with Foobar. For the moment I’ve got 1GB.

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 05:26:57
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 19
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 Well I first had also the GA-G31M-ES2L and it worked with my configuration and 0.85V.
The bigger the RAM the more electricity it consumes - at least that's what I read. So 256MB would consume less than 1GB. You might try out 256.

What do you mean compare cplay with foobar? I use also other audio software, in my case J. River Media Jukebox - it sounds quite good, I could not hear a difference compared to foobar, but I do hear a difference in cplay which sounds better than Media Jukebox. In terms of useability, Media Jukebox is a Rolls Royce compared to cplay which is just a pain in the back. A lot of cue files do not work correctly with it here, it does not understand anything but WAV and flac, so for my other files I use Media Jukebox. I still run it with cMP software started...

Anyway, I think playback is possible with all those softwares when only 256MB are installed.

Whether the PSU makes a difference or not, I do not know, but I'd rather say no.

Good luck

Bernie

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 06:16:08
DeDe


 
I used cPlay in some during some early experiments before I finally assembled my dedicated computer and I was concerned by its very basic interface, its lack of library facilities and its refusal to work with every cuesheet. I wanted to see if I could get acceptable results from Foobar once I had a good hardware setup. As it’s turned out, the sonic benefits of cPlay are rather substantial.

I’ll probably change my RAM to something smaller. I wasn’t sure if 256Mb would be ok for Foobar, so I played safe to begin with.

What I really need at the moment is to be able to boot with something better than 200Mhz and 1v.

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 06:26:13
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 What I have experienced is that when my pc resets bios it sometimes resets all settings (not just MIT). When I disable and reset per Cics specs then I can lower clock and voltage. Check out your bios.

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 08:06:28
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 What I have experienced is that when my pc resets bios it sometimes resets all settings (not just MIT). When I disable and reset per Cics specs then I can lower clock and voltage. Check out your bios.

 

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 10:11:59
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 19
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 Yes, indeed many BIOS, and also some Windows settings had to be redone. But after the first time you do that quicker than the first time....

And thanks to this forum (!) and the cMP2 HomePage and the engagement of cics I now have a dirt cheap audio PC that delivers excellent sound, better than anyting I had previously heard out of a computer...

regards
Bernie

 

voltage settings and resolution, posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:49:36
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 dear cMP fans,

getting a little closer every week....to that magical liquid and effortless digital reproduction, that this equally magical project is all about.
as things a getting better, I´ve noticed that a some demanding recordings or certain passages are being slightly "pressured". most problematic are large orchestra crecendo´s and complex passages with voice(s), where tonal liquidity is suffering resolution and maybe a slight distortion sets in.
previously I´ve thought it was the recording itself, but I come to suspecting the BIOS settings may be too low on certain channels.

have anyone similar observations ?


input very welcome !
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on November 8, 2009 at 10:50:58
Windows X


 
cics, could you please add album art browsing using folder.jpg in located cue folder?

For cMP, Ones in MediaMonkey is good example but I just want simple ones. There're Genre/Artist already so one extra button for AlbumArt and show folder.jpg with artist and album info below.

For cPlay, Add album info panel below songlist containing album art, artist, album, genre, and year.

I know this may sound a bit too demanding but this would make a lot of people happily using it. I wanted to update ones myself but there's no code for contribution.

 

* NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 04:48:08
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 CPU (P4) power supply has seen improvements through the use of a dedicated 12V linear PS or the addition of smoothing capacitors. Most found this optimisation to yield excellent resuts.

This new and simpler approach is not available on the cMP² site. More testing is needed from others. On reviewing Gigabyte's (GA-G31M-S2L) mobo manual, it describes its P4 implementation as follows:


"... The 12V power connector mainly supplies power to the CPU. If the 12V power connector is not connected, the computer will not start."


If it "mainly supplies" power to the CPU, what else then? After testing with another mobo, it seems this is limited to fans (esp CPU fan). This is great news as we can treat the CPU as another "dirty" component (for example the HDD).

Idea:

Replace Grannite Digital (GD) PS' with one "dirty" ATX PSU. That is cMP² now has 2 ATX PSUs. This "dirty" PSU powers all "dirty" peripherals as before (as was done by the GD PS') and the CPU.

Procedure:

  1. Source a 2nd ATX PSU - preferably a good low noise one (Antec Earthwatts remains a good choice). Make sure you have power a switch on the PSU.

  2. Shutdown & disconnect all power.

  3. Remove GD PS' and wiring,

  4. "Dirty" ATX PSU sits either atop or aside your cMP². All DC power cables are run through a spare rear slot (remove screw and plate).



  5. Remove current "clean" P4 connector and replace with "dirty" P4.

  6. Connect all other "dirty" components (alternate USB ports, touch screen, ROM drive, HDDs/SSDs, ...).

  7. Check that "clean" ATX power ONLY supplies P24 (mobo).

  8. On the "dirty" P24 connector, hard wire it to permanently stay on. I used the end of a metal paper clip (which makes a nice "U" pin). Pins connect green and black wires of P20/P24 connector and is thereafter insulation taped.



  9. Connect AC power to "dirty" ATX ("clean" ATX remains off). Switch on.

    You should see all your "dirty" peripherals come on. If there's no power, the ATX PSU is most likely not seeing enough load to turn on. I had to add a ROM drive to overcome this issue (ROM drive is not connected to mobo). Bad connections could be another cause for no power.

  10. Connect power to "clean" ATX and turn on. Test playback, etc..

  11. If you intend to recycle power, shutdown as normal, then turn off "dirty" ATX. For startup, ALWAYS power up "dirty" ATX first.


Results:

After a few hours of playback, there was a tangible amount of improvement - more air and richer mids. Musicality factor of cPlay 2.0b32 improves even further...

 

RE: * NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 08:56:02
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 cics,

I'm not sure if I understand your recommendation correctly...

Your quote of the MoBo manual clearly states that P4 mainly powers the CPU. Maybe a few other components as well, but it seems as if we currently don't know which and to what extent. Nevertheless, the primary consumer of the current supplied through P4 surely is the CPU. Now if we consider this "dirty" and bundle it up on one line together with HDD, USB etc., we heavily "pollute" power supplied to the CPU, don't we? That cannot really be the target for improving power supply to our cMP system IMHO...

You surely make a very valid point that we should separate PSUs for P24 and P4, so if inmates only want to use ATX supplies, a good idea indeed can be to add a second ATX PSU for P4 while the first one only powers P24 - but why not keep the Granite(s)? Greg/GStew btw has already shown that even improving on these "dirty" supplies has a positive effect on overall system performance.

Many of us already e.g. use separate linear supplies or batteries for P4 and P24 (e.g. powering a picoPSU or supplying directly to P24) and a "dirty" supply for the truly "dirty" consumers like HDD and USB etc. But I find it hard to understand that taking away more or less clean power from P4 and making it one of the "dirty" consumers could be beneficial.

Have you compared 1 x ATX PSU for P4 plus 1 x ATX PSU for P24 plus 1 (or several) x Granite(s) for "dirty" consumer(s) versus 1 x ATX PSU for "dirties" and P4 plus 1 x ATX PSU for P24 and found the latter to be superior?

Thank you,
Robert

 

RE: * NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 11:37:09
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Good points.

I'm looking to change our "base" design to 2 ATXs instead of 1 ATX and a few GDs. This way we reduce wiring needed and don't need any "Y" splitters. Also, we don't suffer from PS limitations (compared to GD where you must be under 2A). However, if you already use a dedicated PS for P4, this change will not be useful and should be ignored.

What triggered this design was reports on how sound improved when powering P4 separately. Are we getting improvement from better PS to CPU or is it that we have largely removed its "PS modulation" & ground effects that negatively impacts the critical audio chain (via P24)? My sense is the latter. This question grew larger with hfavandepas' 12V linear+pico implementation. Given that the pico also suffers from ATX like ripple noise, a normal ATX should do. Pico 150XT which passes linear 12V input untouched will likely be better.

My understanding of how P4 is used in the GB mobo suggests its limited to CPU and fans. There may be other components and if they were critical, sound quality would be worse. It's not.

It may seem strange that a "dirty" P4 works so well given that the CPU is tightly coupled to the audio chain. The reason is largely to do with soundcards interacting indirectly with the CPU. For audio streaming, it only sees RAM via the southbridge chipset. Another key factor is how well the CPU / Northbridge interface is significantly de-stressed. This seems to make the twin ATX package work very well.

 

RE: * NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 12:01:44
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 cics,

for the recommended "base" setup this is certainly good to start with, especially given your explanation on how little influence the CPU has during audio streaming (I wasn't aware of this and that the focus here is mainly on the southbridge chipset - would be great if we could improve its working environment, e.g. by adding caps to its voltage pins etc., but that's a bit tricky I suppose...).

Over the course of this year I have improved my system also hardware-wise step by step to a point where I use only batteries plus caps during playback, separate ones for P4 as well as P24 (no picoPSU or similar switching PSUs but battery power separately for every voltage rail) as well as for Juli@ and Buffalo DAC. Optimizing on P4 and P24 always brought little but pleasant improvements step by step - but I have to state very clearly that IMHO almost dramatic improvements can be achieved when further focusing on Juli@ (as we know already from the mods Alfred/sonics and Greg/Gstew made).

Powering Juli@ externally is a HUGE step as we know already for some time. There are two Juli@ versions, one only needs additional 5V for sample rates 176 and 192, the other at all SRs for clock timing. As Greg/Gstew has already pointed out cutting the PCI traces for all voltage input ensures that only the clean external voltages are present on Juli@, separating it even further from detrimental external influence.

In the past couple of days I had to learn how crucial even smallest variations are when you power Juli@ externally - it's a bit like open heart surgery, there's no more regulators and smoothing caps and different circuits having their influences, but you directly without any filters inject current in Juli@'s circuits, and parameters like voltage levels (3.25V instead of the nominal 3.33V as well as 4.85V instead of 5.00V seem to work best), output impedance of the current source, purity of power supplied etc. IMHO have a MASSIVE influence on sonics and sound quality - in my setup even small changes to these parameters had a much more noticeable and revealing influence on overall sonics than any other improvements mentioned above. I'm still in the process of testing and identifying and pinning down, as Greg/Gstew had mentioned before shunt regulators probably will be an excellent choice for powering Juli@ directly, that's next, will report as soon as I get there and have reliable and tested results :-)

Sorry for rambling, just wanted to put the relevance and effect of the various mods into the overall picture, at least as I see it ;-)

Best,
Robert

 

RE: * NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 16:10:41
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 For those who wish to learn please listen to Bertel. As Cics is the king of the audiophile software, Bertel is the king of audiophile hardware. He is not saying but he has singlehandedly solved the metallic/static noise issue of a juli@/cmp^2 based system. He has helped me tremendously with tweaking my hardware to optimum results. It is not easy to implement a a total battery powered system and I don't recommend it for the feint of heart. I approached it but was limited by my soldering skills. But for those that want to achieve this, it is possible.

A fine young man not too disimilar from Cics in his knowledge of these pc audiophile matters and willingness to help others.

 

Are switchers a bit of a turn off?, posted on November 16, 2009 at 04:43:03
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 Idea: Replace Granite Digital (GD) PS' with one "dirty" ATX PSU. That is cMP² now has 2 ATX PSUs. This "dirty" PSU powers all "dirty" peripherals as before (as was done by the GD PS') and the CPU.

cics’s post confirm yet again that PCs dedicated to music replay respond well even to modest improvements in the supply and distribution of power to their components.

The topic has been discussed at length on AA with suggestions ranging from the absurdly simple (smoothing the P4 line) to the intimidatingly complex (an all-battery system with power-on sequencing and elaborate soundcard mods).

However, all but the most rudimentary of a hierarchy of designs (see www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/53957.html ) call for some competence in electronics and access to specialised tools. Many would-be users have neither.

It is a merit of the core cMP^2 design that it uses stock components and can be built by those with few constructional skills. However, although the proposed upgrade using two ATX PSUs maintains that low-skill approach (and gets switchers and mains power out of the case), it doesn’t follow that it is the best solution even for those without access to core skills.

In my opinion and with all due respect, even before plugging in a stray CD-ROM drive (or a few power resistors?) to keep switchers switching, it’s entry-level at best. In fact, it’s a bit of a kludge.

I’ll try to explain why I think that but would first like to clarify a couple of basic points.

** A 4-pin, 12-volt connector (the P4 or Pentium 4 line) was added to the ATX spec in February 2000 to power the CPU. If manufacturers now use it to power other components, they are arguably wandering off spec. Despite what it says in the manuals, I doubt that P4 powers anything on Gigabyte motherboards other than the processor and perhaps its cooling fan. As a cMP^2 system typically has no fans, it’s reasonable to assume that it powers only the CPU.

** ATX spec revisions in 2003 inter alia acknowledged that nowadays most power is required on the 12 V rails: power on 3.3 V and 5 V rails was reduced and -5 V was scrapped. As www.silentpcreview.com explained in 2005:

The high reliance of current systems on the 12V is dramatic compared to even just a couple of years ago and the evolution of the ATX12V spec reflects this change. Almost any system assembled from current components will draw the vast majority of current from 12V, in some cases, as much as 90% at load. (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page2.html )
In short, a modern motherboard is essentially a 12-volt device even if it needs power-sequencing circuitry and a couple of ancilliary lines.

(For anyone sad enough, like me, to find these arcane topics mildly interesting, Intel specs are the official source but material on Wiki and elsewhere is more readable.)

++++

1. I have difficulty with the concept of the CPU as a “dirty†device that can be powered with impunity from a noisy source. First, sound quality is widely recognised as being improved at least as much by smoothing P4 as P24, arguably more. Second, there is no evidence to hand that a polluted P4 line will not pollute the supply to other, perhaps more noise-sensitive, devices. Separate SMPSs may to an extent mask that but it does not follow that they are the optimal solution.

2. The power demand of an under-clocked, small-format motherboard with a 45nm CPU is modest – typically under 25 watts. Allowing for accidental reversion to default BIOS settings, a 3-amp, 12-volt linear supply is likely to be adequate and a 5-amp one certainly is.

There may well be SMPS designs with better noise specs than off-the-shelf linear units but not ATX ones. The experience of several builders of cMP^2 and other systems is that a half-way decent linear supply outperforms even the best ATX designs in this context.

3. A Pico-PSU designed for use with a 12-volt regulated supply (i.e. not for car batteries) uses switching only for ancilliary lines. Even without additional smoothing (à la Greg), they are reported as bettering conventional ATX units. ( See: htttp://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=47156 .)

A 12-volt “laboratoryâ€Â-style PSU driving the P4 line directly and some P24 lines via a Pico PSU requires virtually no constructional skills to implement, costs much the same as two decent SMPSs and will comfortably outperform them. (Just about any 5-volt linear supply will perform as well as a Granite Digital switcher, perhaps better, for the “dirty†kit.)

Of course, one ideal would be to get a PCB laid out for John Swenson’s low RFI, low ripple design. Offers?

Just a few thoughts - sorry to go on for so long . . .

Dave

 

'ranking' bypassing the MoBo, posted on November 16, 2009 at 05:27:10
hfavandepas
 Hi Bertel,

Since you PRACTICE (!) a lot of power supply improvements to the cMP2 setup, you might be able to shed some light on to the following question.

I would like to know the degree in (potential) sound quality improvement between: supply chain 2 and supply chain 3:

- Supply chain 1: original chain.
source: 5 volt ‘high quality power’ -> P24 5Volt input connector on MoBo -> MoBo to PCI -> circuit board of soundcard -> ‘sink’ components on soundcard (who need the supplied 5V)

- Supply chain 2: MoBo is bypassed.
source: 5 volt ‘high quality power’ -> circuit board of soundcard -> ‘sink’ components on soundcard (who need the supplied 5V).

- Supply chain 3: MoBo + (parts of) circuit board of soundcard are bypassed.
source: 5 volt ‘high quality power’ -> ‘sink’ components on soundcard (who need the supplied 5V)

I realise that it’s very hard to communicate about sound quality improvements in words, but I still would like too get an impression by description, because it’s better than no communication at all. May be it’s helpful to rank sound quality improvements as I (subjectively) experience them in my setup. I would scale/index them very ROUGHLY like this:
- linear PSU on P4: +90
- Low resistance wire (6AWG or similar) from linear PSU to both P4 and picoPSU/P24: +90 (*)
- Linear PSU on 12 volt rail on P24 through (specific) picoPSU model: +30
- smoothing caps on a switching ATX PSU: +20
- combined optimizations: XP, Kernel and BIOS: +15 <-> + 20
- various releases of cPlay - 2 <-> +4

Is it possible to say where in the above ranking roughly would be:
- by passing the MoBo (chain 2) with ‘high quality power’ from a linear PSU?

I don’t like soldering to my Lynx AES16 or Lynx L22 sound card. But I think I can manage to bypass the MoBo (with help of a PCI riser-card or something. don’t know yet)


(*)
Untill now no other inmates tried out or gave feedback on changing 18AWG wire between a linear PSU and the P4 / P24 for a wire type with much less resistance (6AWG or similar).
Probably many inmates consider me being an honoured member of ‘the ministry of silly tweaks’. :-) But I’m far from that. If I hadn’t tried it myself, I would be very much in favour of Ryelands comments on it. Http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=54333&highlight=sums+Ryelands&r=
But because you suggested I decided to give it a try. So thank you for the suggestion, because it made (very much too my surprise !! ) a very big improvement.

 

RE: 'ranking' bypassing the MoBo, posted on November 16, 2009 at 06:29:59
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi Mark,

thanks for asking, I'll try to produce something meaningful on this issue - but I'm afraid the answer is not so straightforward... ;-)

Those of us that use the ESI Juli@ soundcard are in a very comfortable position when it comes to judging which solution is best - we unsolder the on-board regulator (5->3.3V), cut the respective traces on the PCI connector that carry in the voltages from the MoBo, feed Juli@ with clean 3.3V and 5v lines, and we're there. Juli@ has dedicated input/output points (kind of little "drill holes") that are wonderfully suited to take this external voltage supply.

I currently use a Juli@ too but have used a Lynx AES16 before. I have just taken my now obsolete Lynx in my hands and am looking at it - and especially when comparing it with Juli@, it's so §$%§& complex, and sadly this is a complexity that for the most part we don't need... It is an excellent piece of engineering, but I have a hard time identifying a good injection point for clean external power. Ok, there are SMD devices that look like input rail smoothing caps to me, labelled C50 and C51 (far left front side down at the PCI connector) and C52 (far right side), from what I see those could potentially do the job. You also had to take care of 3.3V and +/-12V. While poking around with my multimeter I saw that the PCI traces for these voltages are connected on the board but couldn't find chips that would share that connection. This of course needs more work and thorough analysis. But overall I would say that I do not see why it shouldn't be possible to power at least the whole card with clean external voltages. I personally would prefer cutting traces and soldering regs directly to the board. One next step would be to further identify regulators further "downstream" that do additional regulation, and eventually inject here. But this is open heart surgery ;-)

So since you say you could imagine using a riser card or something similar, i think that goes without bloodshed ;-) and should be easily doable - give it a try!

Do I understand you correctly that solution 3 would be to inject external power directly to the chips or parts of the soundcard? This is complex and challenging and would take a lot of analysis, including soldering then of course, but indeed would be very elegant, since then you maybe could shut of whole parts of the card that are not needed by cMP2 which would be great! But to call that "advanced" would be a massive understatement... ;-)

So apart from my estimation that solution 2 (at least for a start) is the only feasible and viable, here's my judgement od the effect of such an operation: when I did this to my Juli@, i.e. cut the PCI traces, unsoldered the on-board reg, connected clean 3.3V and 5v lines (battery plus cap/resistor plus reg) to the respective onboard connectors, the effect was not subtle at all but in an order of magnitudes. See, by doing that we (i) isolate the soundcard from all the powerline "pollution" on the MoBo, and (ii) feed it with dedicated clean power, thus massively increasing the stability and purity of its working environment. Ok, a card like the Lynx creates its own mess and pollution through its complexity and all that stuff that's onboard and working, so maybe the effect is a bit less, but you could think of adding caps and replacing regs (see Greg/Gstew mods to Juli@) and further improve.

So again: I would expect a top-of-the-ranking improvement. The more regs and caps you can replace or upgrade, the more you can add to this improvement. And as you already suggest: the first step is simple, get yourself a riser card, identify which voltages are really needed, and replace them with external ones (that's how Alfred/sonics had proceeded when developing the Juli@ PSU mod). in a next step you then could follw the way the current takes and improve upon its lines. Give it a try, IMHO you can't loose! :-)

Good luck!
Robert

 

P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 03:37:54
hfavandepas
 Hi all,

Reports on which Voltage rail of th eP24 connector draws how much current, where confusing to me. Ryelands suggests that it ‘is essentially a 12-volt device’ but Bertel reports that the 5 Volt rail is ‘the real powerhouse’. So I decided do some measurements myself on which voltage on the P24 connector draws how much current. I post the results of the measurements because they may be of interest or useful for others.

* How the measurements were done.
I toke an P24 extension cable and combined all the:
- orange 3,3 Volt wires on pin: 1, 2, 12, 13.
- red 5 Volt wires on pin: 4, 6, 21, 22, 23.
- yellow 12 Volt wires on pin: 10, 11.
See pictures.
P24 current measurements

I measured a PC setup as per cMP2 hard- and software recommendations. Measurement sessions were done when this PC was running:
- as a standard PC (BIOS with optimized defaults loaded and standard version of XP home running
- and with BIOS and Software optimizations as per cMP2 recommendations
(core speed: 840 Mhz, Mulitiplier: x 6,0: Bus speed: 140 MHz, FSB: 560 Mhz, Memory 1 GB RAM HyperX.


* Results current measurements in Amps
PC running BIOS with Optimized Defaults + Standard XP Home:
-> 12 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,12
XP booting: 0,12
System running: 0,12
Playing music: 0,12

-> 5 Volt
BIOS starts system: 3,10 (peak: 3,80)
XP booting: 3,37 (peak: 3,57)
System running: 3,30 (peak: 3,30)
Playing music: 3,38 (peak: 3,40)

-> 3,3 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,30
XP booting: 0,30
System running: 0,30
Playing music: 0,30


PC running in cMP optimized mode:
-> 12 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,08
XP booting: 0,08
System running: 0,08
Playing music: 0,08

-> 5 Volt
BIOS starts system: 2,90 (peak: 3,50)
XP booting: 2,96 (peak: 3,55)
System running: 3,06 (peak: 3,09)
Playing music: 3,13 (peak: 3,14)

-> 3,3 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,27
XP booting: 0,27
System running: 0,27
Playing music: 0,27

So the 5 Volt line is indeed ‘the powerhouse’.

With the 5 Volt rail being ‘the powerhouse’ it is somewhat confusing to me, that only optimizing the 12 volt on the P24(with a linear PSU through a specific picoPSU which leaves the 12 volt line untouched) still gives such a worthwhile Sound Quality improvement. (A picoPSU that also regulates the 12 volt line, gives hardly any sound quality improvement over using the standard Earth Watts 430 ATX PSU.)

So still much food for thought. Could it be that this way "PS modulation" & ground effects are largely removed and no longer negatively impact the critical audio chain via P24 as Cics suggests. And what about the big impact on sound quality using low resistance wires between linear PSU and P4 P24 (almost as big as going from ATX PSU to linear PSU). Why do SSD drives sound better than HDD-drives? Do HDD ‘pollute’ the 5Volt environment on the MoBo through the S-ATA connection? Why does the Sound Quality improves when TheoB grounds/earths his PC-case?

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 05:01:53
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi Mark,

appreciate the effort, well done!

I can confirm the values you have come up with, my measurements that I repeat quite regularly (last time was only a few days ago) are in the same ballpark - with one exception: my 5V rail draws only 2.47A while playing in optimized cMP mode. Don't know why the difference, my BIOS settings are identical to yours, the only difference in setup being that I use a 256MB ValuRam stick instead of 1GB, but that certainly does not account for that. Different settings in cMP/cPlay, or Lynx driver...? I do 24/192 with SRC 145 to Juli@, buffers 48 and Tiny.

And IMHO you're very right: just optimizing the 12v rail of P24 is good but leaves you ending up halfway at best, the main powerline in case of e.g. a pico still being provided by a switcher, albeit a quite good one. Supplying clean and properly regulated 12v to pico certainly improves and cleans up its working environment, but there's still room for improvement by separately powering the other lines.

Regards,
Robert

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 06:55:44
hfavandepas
 Hi Robert,

I checked ALL bios settings carefully. :-( The LAN was still enabled in the BIOS. After I disabled the LAN, playing music still needs 3,00 Amps. So only 0,14 less. No way close to your 2.47 amps.

I also use SRC 145, buffers 48 and also Tiny. But 24/96 because my Lavry Black DA10 can’t go higher than 96. (Dan Lavry wrote a paper somewhere, where he points out that going higher than 96 for playback has no point. Only for recording 24/192 would make sense because of the involved mixing / mastering process thereafter). And I must confess: It’s really, really difficult to hear some difference between 44.1 and 96.

While I was at it, I was curious to know how much extra Amps are needed for other settings.
I use: DDR2 = 2.0 Volt / FSB = + 0,2 Volt, while cMP2 recommends: DDR2 = 1.8 Volt / FSB = – 0,15V . My overvoltage settings need an extra 0,25 amps on the 5 Volt rail. Much more than I expected.

I still puzzles me why an improvement of ‘a lesser important’ (??) 12V line on the P24 still has that nice impact on sound quality. But I’m even more puzzles and heavily surprised by the BIG (!) impact low resistance wires had on sound quality.

Right now I try to figger out what the best strategy would be for improving the 5 Volt in order to get to me too the next level of Sound Quality. I have done yet al the quick and easy improvements which (hardly) need any soldering skills and no knowledge about electronics.
- PSU improvements part 1 = linear PSU on P4.
- PSU improvements part 2 = linear PSU on 12V on P24 (with help of a specific picoPSU model used).
- PSU improvements part 2.5 = low resistance wire between P4 and picoPSU at P24.(requires only some soldering kills)

Now I’m still thinking on how I can do ‘PSU improvements part 3’ (improvement of the 5 Volt supply) with most effect on Sound Quality, but with only some basic soldering skills and almost no knowledge of electronics present.

As always: many thankx for your thoughts, ideas, input and feedback.

Mark

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 07:13:55
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Mark,

yes right, I forgot your overvoltage settings that I had read about in your recent thread. Amazing that this results in such a substantial increase in power consumption on the 5v rail.

Well, on your 'PSU improvements part 3': Now that you have optimized your pico already, I'm afraid there's nothing much you can do to optimize 5v when leaving the pico in place, at least I don't see it. The next step IMHO really would always have to involve taking out the pico and supplying three separate voltage rails externally (linear, battery, in whatever configuration). And unless you use some module to do the timing and ramp up stuff to power up right (provided there is one which I belive is the case, I just haven't managed to track it down) this has to involve switching over from ATX to linear or similar after booting. I would not consider it too complicated, there's info and documents how to do this, but it surely involves soldering and a bit of electronic knowledge, and some courage ;-) You see there's a reason why almost nobody (at least as far as I can see, I'd love to be corrected) has taken that step to surpass pico and power P24 rails independently...

I can't think of any more useful or encouraging news, maybe others can look at it from different angles and come up with a promising way that I haven't seen?

Best,
Robert

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 08:56:17
hfavandepas
 Hi Robert,

Looking at the possibilities to optimize the 5 Volt, I also look at ‘the consumers’ of the 5 Volt. I look at it from a balanced sink <-> source perspective and how they influence each other. ‘Sinks / consumers’ of the 5 voltage are: the MoBo and the Juli@ soundcard. So, with a ‘high quality’ 5 volt source I could supply:

1. Only the Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut).
(bypassing the MoBo)

2. only the Mobo.
(which than also supply’s the Juli@ soundcard when PCI power supply traces are NOT cut)

3. separately supplying the Mobo + the juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut)

Until now option 1. supplying a Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut) looks much easier than option 2: the Mobo stuff with the use of switches/relays ect.

But I can only makes a good judgement between option 1 and option 2, if I also know which ‘effort needed’ yields the most Sound Quality improvement. That’s why I asked (in an other thread) if it where possible to rank the sound quality improvements. But I still can spend some time on finding out. PSU improvements Part 3 will only start somewhere in spring 2010.

Mark

N.B. with al cMP2 BIOS settings + windows XP tunning/tweaks (incl min logon) applied my MoBo (GA-G31M-ES2L) it still needs 3.0 Amp while playing music. With both over-voltages in place, it even uses a wapping 3,25 Amps. I will have another close look, because I find the difference 2,47 <-> 3.0 very big.

 

Why shouldn't we treat the CPU as a dirty device?, posted on November 18, 2009 at 09:18:05
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 If CPU power supply is isolated to just P4, using the approach suggested should be fine. So far my tests confirm this. CPU signaling to Northbridge is very important but this we control via software!

I'm suggesting an additional ATX over 1 or more GDs. It seems we don't need an expensive high powered ATX either but for an elegant in-box solution, one could try this:



Sparkle FSP300-601U would fit internally and may require less load to turn on. Note that it offers a P20 instead of a P24 connector.

I was very pleased to learn that GB mobos don't use P24 for the CPU.

Of course, using linear PSUs is the best way forward.

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 09:21:36
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Mark,

I strongly recommend to cut (or just mask if you will) the PCI traces to Juli@, unsolder the regulator U1 (no big deal, really) and supply it externally with clean 3v3 and 5v (remember that only the analog part of Juli@ plus one or two chips consume very little current on the 5v rail, the vast majority are 3v3 consumers!) - you're isolating Juli@ from all interferences, noise etc. coming from the mobo's voltage rails plus supply good quality power in addition - little effort gives you maximum return! In terms of return on effort invested as well as in achievable sonic improvement, I'd say this is clearly priority #1! The results at least in my system (when also adjusting voltages externally supplied to exactly match those on the mobo) were in order of magnitudes above most others I had done.

Best,
Robert

 

Thank you for helping making the choice: option 1 it will be than, posted on November 18, 2009 at 09:51:30
hfavandepas
 Hi Robert,

You make things easy. Thank you for the advice. So option 1. it will be.

1. Only the Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut). (bypassing the MoBo)

I think it’s also the most cost effective one.

As other inmates reports very good results with battery power, I’m even prepared to take a close look at ‘battery power’. :-)

Mark

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 09:52:08
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Thanks for sharing those useful measures.

PC running in cMP optimized mode:
-> 12 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,08
XP booting: 0,08
System running: 0,08
Playing music: 0,08

-> 5 Volt
BIOS starts system: 2,90 (peak: 3,50)
XP booting: 2,96 (peak: 3,55)
System running: 3,06 (peak: 3,09)
Playing music: 3,13 (peak: 3,14)

-> 3,3 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,27
XP booting: 0,27
System running: 0,27
Playing music: 0,27

5V line@music would be 2.74 (3.13-0.14-0.25).

Power consumption on P24 would then be 15.6 watts (Robert's yields a lower 13.8 watts).

Have you looked at measures when changing RAM timings, e.g. using 3-2-2-5/6 with 256MB RAM? Would be interesting.

 

I gladly do some extra measurements, posted on November 18, 2009 at 11:25:01
hfavandepas
 Hi Cics,

I would gladly to do some extra measurements. Since I now have a special modified P24 extension cable ready for that, it’s no big deal to swap in and out place between the picoPSU.

But before I do some extra measurements, I first want to trace down how it is possible that my current measurements differ so much ( 2,47 A <-> 3.0 A) from those that Bertel did.
I don’t think my multi-meter is bad or broke. So I first want to check al settings in the BIOS (which I already did) and check the numerous XP tweaks and suggested XP fine tuning. Give me a day or two.

I only have a 2x 512 MB RAM HyperX and 2x 1 GB HyperX DDR2 memory modules at hand. But I will do some comparison measurements with those modules on suggested RAM timings.

Measurements done, where taken at 3-3-3-5 RAM timings (manual set) with 512 Mb HyperX DRR2 RAM

I will get back to you on this soon.

Mark

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 19, 2009 at 06:21:56
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Do I understand correctly that 3 2 2 5/6 are feasible and possibly sonically desirable with the stock cmp^2 setup?

 

RE: 'ranking' bypassing the MoBo, posted on November 19, 2009 at 08:51:39
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 H,

I thought I had replied about your 6g wire tweak, but cant find the post.

Are you sure it is not the braiding that helps in sound more than the wire gauge??

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

Most likely I corrected – without knowing- some mismatch or sub-optimal situation., posted on November 19, 2009 at 10:32:05
hfavandepas
 Thank you for responding.

I really don’t have a clou of why it does sound much better. Most likely I corrected – without knowing- some mismatch or sub-optimal situation in my setup. (re-connected wires the right way, re-plugged all the gear in the correct way, ect)

I strongly favour Reylands post on this. http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=54333&highlight=sums+Ryelands&r=

But I still would like to know if I accidentally corrected something in my setup for the better without knowing. That’s why I decided to ask other inmates on the AA-forum if they can repeat this and report their findings back to the forum (too try this, one doesn’t need much soldering skills).

I was hoping that a few inmates would try this in their setup. If they would report that it didn’t made any difference in Sound Quality for the better in their setup, than I know for sure that I must have accidentally corrected something in my setup for the better without knowing.

But until now I haven’t got any feedback from inmates who tried it.

 

results extra current measurements 5 Volt rail of P24 connector, posted on November 19, 2009 at 12:15:27
hfavandepas
 Hi Cics,

Too eliminated possible PSU setup and connection errors, I re-reconnected the Earth Watts 430 ATX PSU to both the P4 and the P24. So the Earth Watts is the only PSU that is powering everything (as in an of the shelf standard PC situation) while the measurements where done.

* System
MoBo: GA - G31M - E S2L, Processor: 7300, soundcard: Lynx AES16 pci (Synchro lock disabled)
* settings:
- Software, kernel, registry, service, graphics, etc, ect and BIOS, as per cMP recommendations.
- MB Intelligent Tweaker (M.I.T.) settings:
core speed: 840 Mhz, Mulitiplier: x 6,0: Bus speed: 140 MHz, FSB: 560 Mhz
- cMP / cPlay 32: output: 96K, Buffer: tinny, SCR 145 db, lynx ASIO buffer: 32
- graphics: 8 bit (600 x 800)
- RAM: 512 MB HyperX RAM

I turned my system inside out, but I couldn’t find anything other than a few hidden EMU devices that where in ‘the hidden section’ in the Device Manager. With these settings the lowest possible current on the P24 5 Volt rail in my setup, when XP home is at rest = 2, 79 Amps. (So still not close to Bertels 2,47 Amps). I couldn’t re-run ‘autoruns.exe’ because this doesn’t work when ‘min logon’ finally is installed.

-> Results current measurements on the 5 volt rail on the P24 (in Amps)

* 512 MB RAM HyperX
- Timings in BIOS set to ‘auto’, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-7
XP at rest: 2,80
Playing music: 2,87/88

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-3-3-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5.
XP at rest: 2,79
Playing music: 2,87

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-2-2-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5 (!!!).
XP at rest: 2,79
Playing music: 2,87


* 2 x 512 MB RAM HyperX (interleaved mode)
- Timings in BIOS set to ‘auto’, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-7
XP at rest: 2,97
Playing music: 3,05

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-3-3-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5.
XP at rest: 2,98
Playing music: 3,06/05

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-2-2-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5 (!!!).
XP at rest: 2,97
Playing music: 3,05/06


* 1GB RAM HyperX
- Timings in BIOS set to ‘auto’, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-7
XP at rest: 2,85
Playing music: 2,93

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-3-3-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5.
XP at rest: 2,85
Playing music: 2,93

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-2-2-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5 (!!!).
XP at rest: 2,86/85
Playing music: 2,93

* what timings can be achieved with ‘auto’-setting in BIOS.
When using the Earth Watts PSU it is not possible to boot at any lower busspeed than 140 mHz. But when using a linear PSU on the P4 and on the picoPSU-150-XT at the P24, then it is possible to (cold) boot at a busspeed of 130 MHz and warm boot at a busspeed of 125 Mhz.

With bus speeds at 130 Mhz or 125 Mhz and timings in BIOS set to ‘auto’, CPUZ than reports: 3-3-3-6. With BIOS timings set to ‘auto’ is was not possible to reach 3-3-3-5.

* difference between timings set ‘manually’ and readings in CPUZ.
When timings were manually set to 3-2-2-5 in BIOS, CPUZ still reports 3-3-3-5. I have no explanation for this. When again checking the BIOS setup screen: 3-2-2-5 was still activated.

 

RE: results extra current measurements 5 Volt rail of P24 connector, posted on November 19, 2009 at 12:50:18
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Mark,

impressive measurements, I appriciate that!

Now I have had to make the same expperience - when setting 3-3-3-5 on 256 ValueRam, CPU-Z reported 3-3-3-9 always...

2x512MB HyperX set to 3-3-3-5 results in 2.06A? an impressive value - unfortunately it's interleaved and with two banks creating electrical activity and interference... Well your still not there, your system is circling around 2.9A. What do you have as devoltage values?

Wow, you were able to boot up at 130 and even 125 MHz??? I've got to try that and play with that a bit, that's impressive!

Best,
Robert

 

grr a typo. 2,06/05 Amps must be:3,06/05 Amps, posted on November 19, 2009 at 13:40:13
hfavandepas
 Thankx for your response. unfortunately it’s a typo. 2,06/05 must be: 3,06/05.

Yes my system is still circling around 2,9 amps on the 5 volt rail at the P24 connector
I went to great lengths in controlling and checking if everything and all value’s were set like the recommendations as described in http://cplay.sourceforge.net/. FSB de-voltage is at – 0,15 V (as recommended).

Since I use linear PSU’s to power the picoPSU-150-XT at the P24 and the P4, I discovered that it’s possible to cold boot at 130 Mhz busspeed and warm boot at 125 Mhz busspeed. However 130 Mhz is to slow for upsampling. Booting at 125 MHz into a normal XP installation is impossible. You than will crash into a BSOD. At 125 MHZ you can only boot into an XP installation that is 100% optimized as per cMP recommendations.

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 19, 2009 at 13:48:55
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

Yes in my setup is possible to manually set 3-2-2-5.

But do I hear a sound quality improvement ? I’m not sure if I hear any.

Mark

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on November 19, 2009 at 14:00:41
audiofanaat


 
Does anyone know the AutoHotkey scripts used by the program? I need to make some udjustments using AutoHotkey as well.

 

Very useful RAM measurements indeed, posted on November 20, 2009 at 02:16:12
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Thanks Mark.

Using a single RAM module with smallest capacity offers lowest power consumption. Faster timings for 512RAM have ~5mA impact (on the lower consumption side: 2,87/88 vs 2.87 continuous). I certainly wasn't expecting this and would've been happy to go with same current. From a theoretical viewpoint, faster timings without any penalties, could potentially lower jitter. This is how I see it: if data streamed to soundcard happens slightly faster then we have less interference to its XO. I'll do some tests at 3-2-2-5/6 (I prefer keeping settings for a few days at a time). Big assumption here is both 12V and 3.3V lines remain unchanged - did you confirm this?

Reason for your higher 5V consumption over Robert's is the Lynx. It's more complicated, uses different chips and offers more channels than Juli@.

 

2,87/88 versus 2,87. I only used a simple the multi-meter, posted on November 20, 2009 at 03:40:04
hfavandepas
 Hi Cics,

Thank you for your feedback.

2,87/88 versus 2,87.
Is it really relevant with the multimeter I used? It is not a professional one.
It's a Velleman multimeter DVM68 of 30 euro's for home/hobby use.
I don't know anything about it's stability, hysteresis and bias.
About accuracy the manual reports: basic DC current accuracy: ±1.2% (±2.0% for 10A range)

I wil re-do the measurements with 512 RAM HyperX at different timings again, but than also measure the current on the 12V and 3,3 V.

For what it’s worth:
Yesterday for measurement reason’s, I powered the cMP PC setup only with the Earth Watts 430 ATX PSU. It struck me somewhat that the sound quality wasn’t that much less, than I had expected it to be, from what I could remember when using the Juli@ with different PSU types. It sounded somewhat ‘digital’ again: ‘grainy’, ‘sandy’ and ‘the digital highs’ where back. But still, I’m under the impression that the Juli@ is more sensitive for swapping from an ATX PSU to a linear PSU, than the Lynx AES16 is.
I can’t check this back anymore because I sold my Juli@ one month a go. But from what I can remember: the positive effect on sound quality when using a linear PSU with the juli@ appears to be bigger, than when using the Lynx AES16. Or said the other way round: the Lynx AES16 seems less sensitive for type of PSU used.

 

AHK script used in cMP (cicsRemote.exe), posted on November 20, 2009 at 10:09:12
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 cMP's Remote control is explained here. Script below is used in all cMP versions. For further development you'll need to install AHK.

How do you plan to turn display On/Off?


; cMP version 1.0b
; cicsRemote.ahk

#NoTrayIcon
#SingleInstance Force
#HotkeyInterval 2000
#MaxHotkeysPerInterval 200

;Stop
XButton1::
send `;
return

;Stop&Exit OR Default View
XButton2::
send !{f4}
return

;Stop&Exit OR Default View
MButton & LButton::
send !{f4}
return

;Next
RButton::
send ]
return

;Previous OR Navigation Back
MButton & RButton::
send [
return

;Volume up
MButton & WheelUp::
send +{Home}
return

;Volume down
MButton & WheelDown::
send +{End}
return

;Navigation Up
WheelUp::
send {Up}
return

;Navigation Down
WheelDown::
send {Down}
return

;Navigation Forward OR Select Item (OK) OR Stop&Exit (on double-click)
MButton::
if (A_PriorHotkey <> "MButton" or A_TimeSincePriorHotkey > 400)
{
;Too much time between presses, so this isn't a double-press.
KeyWait, MButton
send {enter}
return
}
;MsgBox Double-pressed the Middle Mouse button.
send !{f4}
return

; compile and run script.

 

RE: 2,87/88 versus 2,87. I only used a simple the multi-meter, posted on November 20, 2009 at 10:18:40
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Earthwatts: You would get more improvement if using main ATX for P24 only. Your other ATX would power P4.

On 5V measurements, we can conclude that RAM timings does not adversely affect power consumption (no more than 35mA).

 

Revised AHK script for use in CMP Mode allowing for Display Off when pressing mouse button 2, posted on November 21, 2009 at 02:54:18
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 This works with cMP allowing for display to be turned off by pressing mouse button 2. I prefer using a mouse button as this allows for no keyboard. Display turns On by moving mouse or pressing keyboard.

Interesting approach to removing display overhead during playback - any sound improvements?


; cMP version 1.2
; cicsRemote.ahk 1.0b2

#NoTrayIcon
#SingleInstance Force
#HotkeyInterval 2000
#MaxHotkeysPerInterval 200

;Phase 0/180
XButton1::
send `;
return

;Display Off
XButton2::
KeyWait, XButton2
SendMessage, 0x112, 0xF170, 2,, A
return

;Stop&Exit OR Default View
MButton & LButton::
send !{f4}
return

;Next
RButton::
send ]
return

;Previous OR Navigation Back
MButton & RButton::
send [
return

;Volume up
MButton & WheelUp::
send +{Home}
return

;Volume down
MButton & WheelDown::
send +{End}
return

;Navigation Up
WheelUp::
send {Up}
return

;Navigation Down
WheelDown::
send {Down}
return

;Navigation Forward OR Select Item (OK)
MButton::
KeyWait, MButton
send {enter}
return

; compile and run script.


Save as cicsRemote.ahk and compile. Then copy new cicsRemote.exe to c:\program files\cics Memory Player. When using cMP, "Program Manager" doesn't exist (explorer), instead use "A" (i.e. send to active window).

 

RE: Revised AHK script for use in CMP Mode allowing for Display Off when pressing mouse button 2, posted on November 21, 2009 at 11:26:47
etiennelemay@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 49
Joined: June 25, 2008
 Thanks for the script!
But whats the difference between
XButton2 for Screen Off
and
RButton for next song?

Whenever I press my right mouse button, I get the next song playing.
How do I activate the XButton2 instead of the RButton?
My mouse has only a Left-Wheel-Right buttons.

Thanks

 

Full function remote using just 3 button mouse, posted on November 21, 2009 at 22:08:48
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Revised version above requires a 5 button mouse (XButton1/2 go beyond L/R/Wheel).

I've removed Previous / Next navigation (as this can be achieved using the wheel). In its place are Phase 0/180 and Display Off. Script:

; cMP version 1.2
; cicsRemote.ahk 1.0b3: full functionality using 3-button mouse

#NoTrayIcon
#SingleInstance Force
#HotkeyInterval 2000
#MaxHotkeysPerInterval 200

;Phase 0/180
RButton::
send `;
return

;Display Off
MButton & RButton::
KeyWait, RButton
KeyWait, MButton
SendMessage, 0x112, 0xF170, 2,, A
return

;Stop&Exit OR Default View
MButton & LButton::
send !{f4}
return

;Volume up
MButton & WheelUp::
send +{Home}
return

;Volume down
MButton & WheelDown::
send +{End}
return

;Navigation Up
WheelUp::
send {Up}
return

;Navigation Down
WheelDown::
send {Down}
return

;Navigation Forward OR Select Item (OK)
MButton::
KeyWait, MButton
send {enter}
return

; compile and run script.


Here's a summary of the new remote control functions:



To compile script:
  1. Download AHK and install on your home PC
  2. Save (using notepad) above script as "cicsRemote.ahk"
  3. Right-click "cicsRemote.ahk" and select Compile (or Start > All Programs > AutoHotKey > Convert .ahk to .exe > Select "cicsRemote.ahk" > Convert)
  4. Copy "cicsRemote.exe" to cMP² (c:\program files\cics Memory Player)
  5. Be careful not to run "cicsRemote" as your mouse functions will be changed. To remove it, you must kill "cicsRemote.exe" or "AutoHotKey.exe" from Task Manager.

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 06:30:40
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 thanks Mark

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 07:47:59
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009
 Hi averyone,
This is my firs post and english is my not first language.
I build CMP^2 with external linear PSU ( four Power one/ Condor units ).
Inside computer - one 3.3v battery for July@ and two battery 3.3v for MOBO, one battery -9v ( insted -12v, work fine) for start only.
I also use Audio grade caps for all linear and five Mundorf Tube cap 47mf on top of linear / battery. Small by pass cap .01 mf as well.
For wiring - 0.3mm Silver plated cupper. All ideas from this forum, you know.
Great thanks Cics and all followers.
Bertel,
this is my approach maybe will be usefull to you.
I do powering up manualy - first I swich all power on , then push start button on computer then Power Good swich . I do swich off -12v after all.
Most inportant , I think, I can restart computer by wireless mouse not touching any switches .( -12v still off)
About timing , by the book , Power Good singal sould be delayed on 0.5 second . I can't find nothing, about what should be powered first, so I swich on HDD and then rest.
I use B31 , in my set up after about 30 hours break-in B32 was not so resolving as B31.
Best, Gene.


 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 08:36:57
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi Gene,

many thanks for your post, and welcome to the Asylum! :-)

This is very interesting! So do I understand you correctly, you ARE able to power up the computer manually without ATX power supply? So you switch on P4 rail, power for Juli@, and 3.3V, 5V and 12V, then you push the computer's start button, and then you switch on PowerGood - and the computer boots up? Is that how you do it and that works?

I don't think though that you need -12V at all, I never had connected it in my setups.

Thank you,
Robert

 

Thanks for the 3-button version, posted on November 22, 2009 at 09:29:37
etiennelemay@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 49
Joined: June 25, 2008
 The command: SendMessage, 0x112, 0xF170, 2,, A
doesn't do the trick for shutting off my display though.

Thanks

Etienne

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 09:45:15
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009



Hi Robert, thanks for welcome
I do need -12v, if I forgot swiching on -12v , HDD light not flasning
computer never boot.
It is not very complicated rewire computer, it is just look scary .
I use this set up about one month , for MOBO 3.3v- I use three battery
not two as I said in last post .
Will try send a picture PSU and Computer.
Best, Gene.

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 09:48:11
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009



Hi Robert, thanks for welcome
I do need -12v, if I forgot swiching on -12v , HDD light not flasning
computer never boot.
It is not very complicated rewire computer, it is just look scary .
I use this set up about one month , for MOBO 3.3v- I use three battery
not two as I said in last post .
Will try send a picture PSU and Computer.
Best, Gene.

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 13:49:48
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009



Hi Robert,
As you can see from picture there is no any ATX PSU in a MP^2 ,
and I do power up my MP^2 one month with only one error
( battery -9v was dead , I put exstra swich for disconecting)
My linear external PSU has two AC switches, one for HDD supply and another for the rest three +12, +12, +5v.
Battery , Pawer Good and Charger switches all placed on front of MP^2.
Best, Gene.

 

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 14:17:03
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi Greg,

yes, you're right, I remember the -12v rail needs to be present at the time the computer startup process is started by pushing the start button. Once the power up process has started it can be switched off and isn't needed anymore.

I have tried switching all the "special" lines in different timings and sequences before but hadn't succeeded. I must have overlooked something, I'll try switching PowerGood separately. That will help a lot - thank you Greg for reporting this!

Best,
Robert

 

This is a great breakthrough. Congratulations! Some questions..., posted on November 23, 2009 at 01:19:28
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
  1. Can you power CPU (P4) using the "dirty" PS? You should get an improvement.

  2. Do you have a circuit diagram with powering sequence for P24?


 

Display Off tested on 2 machines BUT they have VGA drivers - need to look into it. Thx. nt, posted on November 23, 2009 at 07:15:53
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 .

 

Thank you for demystifying the ATX start-up process. Would a relay also work?, posted on November 23, 2009 at 14:05:42
hfavandepas
 Hi Gene_,

Thank you for demystifying the ATX start-up process and for sharing on the Audio Asylum forum. You showed the way to a full linear cMP2 power supply !! Thanx you very much.

I have a question about timing the PWR-OK signal and a question about using a relay to switch the PWR-OK signal.

-> Question about timing the PWR_OK signal

The ATX formfactor says:
- the timing has to be: PWR_OK delay 100 ms <- Timing <- 500 ms.

The +5V Power_Okay signal should be switched to pin 8 within 500 milliseconds. How do you do that by hand?

Or…… is it not so critical after all? And can it also be done by hand? Even after 1, 2 or 3 seconds?


-> Switching PWR-OK with help of a relay?
I was thinking of switching the +5V PWR_OK signal to pin 8 (grey wire) with the help of a relay (with some time delay).
This relay acts on pin 14 (green wire)the PWR-UP signal.

- Idea.

* First: normal ATX PSU start-up proceeding
You power pin 9 (purple wire) with +5 volt because the Power Control Circuit (PCC) on the MoBo reacts on pushing the start-up button.

When the PCC is active (+5 volt on pin 9) and the start-up button is pressed, the PCC than will drop the power on pin 14 (green). No power on pin 14 (green wire) signals the ATX PSU to power up.

When the ATX PSU has it’s power up, the ATX PSU than gives +5 volt to pin 8 (Grey wire). With +5V on pin 8, the PCC now starts the processor.


* Giving PWR-OK signal when using all linear PSU’s

Switch on 3.3, 5 and 12 volt to P24.
Which also powers pin 9 (purple wire) with +5v (standby function). This way the Power Control Circuit (PCC) of the MoBo is active and thus also pin 14 (green wire) gets +5Volt from the PCC.

When PCC is active and the start-up button is pushed, the +5V on pin 14 (green wire) is dropped by the PCC. This causes the relay to switch +5V to pin 8 (grey wire) as PWR_OK signal to the PCC.

With PWR-OK signal on pin 8 (+5V on grey wire) the PCC allows processor to start working.

Since the 3.3, 5 and 12 Volt is already switched on as being the first step, the processor will have no problem starting.

I was brought to this idea because some websites also say:
"Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake" the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line. Such a system essentially has no Power Good functionality and will cause the motherboard to try to start the system before the power has fully stabilized.â€Â
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcPowerGood-c.html


Do you (or any other inmates) think this could work?

 

RE: This is a great breakthrough. Congratulations! Some questions..., posted on November 23, 2009 at 14:27:15
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009
 Hi Cics,
many Thanks for Great Project. I never listen CD before, tryed a lot.

1.I use 4 linear PSU : +12v (3A) for CPU, (+4700mf cap, +47mf Tube cap)

+12v (3A) for MOBO,(+ 4700mf cap, +47mf Tube cap)

+5v (6A) for MOBO,(+9400mf cap, +47mf Tube cap )

+5V (3A) for HDD.( also as a charger for 3.3v)

Use 1 battery +3.3v for July@ ( + 47mf Tube Cap)

3 battery +3.3v for MOBO (+ 47mf Tube Cap)

1 battery -9v for MOBO

so as you see , all separate.

2. I do swich first -9v, HDD, then by one swich all three linear then 3.3v for MOBO and 3.3v for JUly@ - last one Power Good.

I can restart computer from my sofa.
Best Gene.

 

RE: Thank you for demystifying the ATX start-up process. Would a relay also work?, posted on November 24, 2009 at 14:05:31
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009



Hi Mark,
I am also read about poorly designed ATX PSU, it is incourage me to try .
I am was not sure sistem will be restarted but it did. I use more switches as a heritage from previous set up. My set up proove -3 switches enough ( not take in account -12v) , HDD, Rest of voltage, Power Good. I did try minutes ago deferent combination - All voltage
without HDD , then HDD then Power Good and it started !
So, we can expect two switches will be enough. Remember ' cheapo 'ATX ?
Mark, of couse, relay can give you convenience of remote control power.
I placed switches on front panel, so it convenience to use , look as standard HI-FI chassis.
About ATX factor standart. Maybe hardware manufactures not forgot about us :-). I was give to MOBO by mistake -1.8v instead of positive
voltage , power up cMP^2 complite - nothing happen.
Best, Gene.


 

RE: cMP - cue files not found, posted on November 25, 2009 at 02:39:37
chevron
Manufacturer

Posts: 8
Location: Derby
Joined: November 25, 2009
 When I double click to play a track, diagnostics returns error message 'file not found'. Have rebuilt cue list but same problem. The cue list works with cplay.
Chevron

 

RE: cMP - cue files not found, posted on November 25, 2009 at 06:25:16
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 When I double click to play a track . . .

I'm not clear - in what program/UI are you double-clicking on the cue file?

Whatever, I'd start by:

1. checking that the file C:\Program Files\cics Memory player\cics memory player.pth points correctly to cPlay.exe. If it doesn't, correct it as it means that cMP can't find cPlay.

2. clicking on the "Explorer" button in cMP, navigating to a cue file in Explorer and double-clicking on it. If that launches cPlay correctly and the *.pth file is correct, that suggests that something is wrong, well, somewhere or other - but it's a start.

3. the tried and tested "I-can't-get-you-off-the-phone-quick-enough" manoeuvre:

Control Panel > Add/Remove Programs > Remove cMP.exe and reinstall.

Sorry if you already know all this,

Dave

 

It works in my setup too ! Giving the PWR_OK signal manually, is indeed not time critical., posted on November 25, 2009 at 10:16:37
hfavandepas
 Hi Gene_,

Thank you very much for your reply. Your reply encouraged me too also try to give the PWR_OK signal by hand (manually).

Since I already had a modified P24 extension cable which I used for the P24 current measurements. I put a little black switch on pin 8 (power good, grey wire). See photo. For simplicity reasons, I put the ANTEC Earth Watts 430 on the P24 extension cable to power the MoBo.

Giving the PWR_OK signal manually on pin 8 (grey wire) at P24 connector. cMP2 project.


With 230 AC on the ANTEC Earth Watts, the ANTEC provides a +5 Volt stand-by signal on pin 9 (purple wire) for feeding the PCC (Power Control Circuit) on the MoBo.

When the PCC is active it gives a +5 Volt on pin 14 (Power ON, Green wire) to the ATX PSU, which signals the ATX PSU, NOT (!) to power-up.

When the Power Button is pushed, the PCC drops the power on pin 14. No Power on P14 is the signal for the ANTEC Earth Watts to power up.
But because of the switch I placed on the grey wire (pin 8), the ANTEC Earth Watts can not give a Power Okay (PWR_OK) signal to the PCC on the MoBo. Although the ANTEX powers the 3.3, 5 and 12 Volt rails, there is no signal on pin 8 (grey wire), thus the PCC will not start the PC.

When the PWR_OK signal on pin 8 (grey wire) is given manually with a switch, the PCC starts the PC. The PWR_OK signal can be given manually at any desired time, provided there is power at the 3.3, 5 and 12 Volt rails. Giving the PWR_OK signal manually on pin 8, is indeed not time critical(on my GA-G31M-ES2L MoBo)!

Thank you for sharing on the forum! The road to an all Linear powered cMP2 PC is open !

Mark

 

RE: It works in my setup too ! Giving the PWR_OK signal manually, is indeed not time critical., posted on November 25, 2009 at 14:14:52
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009
 Hi Mark,
I am happy my experience was useful for you. I am pretty long time
read yours and another CiCs followers post on this forum so maybe it is
just evolutional devolopment :-)
One another tips for " warm" start. I use 12v-20WA spot light balb, placed on CPU and connected to 5V stand by , so it will heat CPU to 37'C all time. Need one more swich or interconect for disconnecting.
Best ,Gene.

 

Change off plans. PSU Improvements part 3 (almost) solved. Thankx to Gene_., posted on November 25, 2009 at 14:34:04
hfavandepas
 Hi Bertel,

Change off plans.

Since Gene_ showed how too power up the MoBo manually, my efforts to improve power supply to the cMP2 PC (PSU improvements part 3), will again be directed back to the 3,3 Volt and 5 Volt rail of the P24 connector.

In theory it now looks strikingly simple to realise a full linear power supply for the P24 connector:
- power the 3.3 Volt, 5 Volt and the 12Volt rail with a good Linear PSU or battery;
- also power the +5Volt stand-by on pin 9 (purple wire) to activate the Power Control Circuit on the MoBo;
- also give some -9 <-> -12 Volt (bleu wire) for starting the serial controller on the GA-G31M-ES2L MoBo;

Switch manually (or with a relay) a +5 Volt signal (PWR_OK signal) to pin 8 (grey wire) and there you go. The PCC will start the MoBo.

Gene_ proved that giving the PWR_OK signal on pin 8 (grey wire) is not time critical at all.
It doesn't have to be done within 500 milliseconds as the ATX formfactor suggests.
The PWR_OK signal can be given at any desired time.
When there is power present on the 3.3 Volt, 5 Volt and the 12Volt rail and the Power Control Circuit is active (+5 volt on pin 9 (purple wire)), the PCC will start the MoBo.

I tested this in my setup with the ANTEC Earth Watts and it works.
Giving the PWR_OK signal manually on pin 8 (grey wire) at P24 connector. cMP2 project.

Gene_ already showed that it also works in his setup with a combo of linear PSU’s and battery power.

So when I have sold my Lynx L22 card, I will buy myself from that money, a very nice and decent linear laboratory PSU with two (3.3V, 5V) or may be even three (3.3V, 5V, 12V) quality DC outputs. And PSU improvements part 3 will be realised !!

A hybrid Power Supply solution on the P24 connector will no longer be necessary. A full computer linear power supply on the P24 connecter will than be realised. (with again many thankx to Gene_)

 

Things get even simpler if you simply, posted on November 26, 2009 at 00:27:17
ForgotPassword
Audiophile

Posts: 87
Joined: September 21, 2009
 ...power the 5V/3.3V rails directly with clean linear supplies, and the rest with your Pico PSU. Just buy or build the 5V/3.3V linear supplies, and you're good to go!


"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." N.P.

 

You’re right. The pico stays useful. It can do ‘the talking’ to the PCC, posted on November 26, 2009 at 02:42:35
hfavandepas
 Hi ‘ForgotPassword’,

Thank you very much! I didn’t think of that.

Indeed, the picoPSU is still very useful. The pico can provide the -12V and do ‘the talking’ too the Power Control Circuit to start-up the MoBo the easy way.
May be the shut-down process also could be handled nicer with the help of the pico.

I think your tip is also a good idea for battery users. I read that battery users also struggle with providing the voltages which do ‘the talking’ to the Power Control Circuit.

I hope that these threads inspires other inmates too, to come up with ideas to realise a full linear power supply the easy way.

Your tip made the setup for a full linear power supply again more simple and more easy (read: more ‘DIY-doable’).

Thank you.

Mark

 

Three linear supplies (12V, 5V, 3.3V) and a Pico - that's all we really need., posted on November 26, 2009 at 04:07:11
ForgotPassword
Audiophile

Posts: 87
Joined: September 21, 2009
 Pico surely makes life alot easier for novice DIYers like me. I believe it also helps SQ indirectly by reducing the number of relays/power switches in the power supplies.

On a side note, don't hesitate to aim for "overkill" capacity when building these supplies. I built the the 5v, 12v, and 3.3V supplies with 130VA trafo/LT1083, ~130VA/LT1084, and 30VA/LT1086, respectively. You could use a smaller transformer for the 12V supply, though. My 12V supply is excessively big only because it's the same one I used to power the Pico in its full glory.



"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." N.P.

 

RE: cMP - cue files not found, posted on November 26, 2009 at 05:39:13
chevron
Manufacturer

Posts: 8
Location: Derby
Joined: November 25, 2009
I've sorted it by setting ram load to 'off'.

Not enough ram in my system to work with ram load 'on'


Chevron

 

cMP -newbie stuck in the desktop..., posted on December 2, 2009 at 08:06:54
numeri


 
Hello,

Sorry if this is obvious, I`ve installed cMP and when I try to
"point" cMP toward my music library the only choice that I have is
"desktop" without any other choices possible...?

Thank you.

 

That's a Vista problem - get Windows 7 instead, posted on December 2, 2009 at 13:39:19
seger
 or for best sound, go back to XP!

 

earthing arrangements and position of ‘Live’ and ‘Neutral’, posted on December 3, 2009 at 08:20:23
hfavandepas
 Hi all,

I have a question on: earthing arrangements and position of ‘Live’ and ‘Neutral’. May be knowlegdeable inmates know someting about this. Feedback and thoughts on this are very much appreciated.

I used to have a NAIM system (CDX, NAP250, NAC82, 3 HICAPS) and with this system one could hear differences in sound quality when the power plugs had different positions of ‘Live’ and ‘neutral’ on the pins. I found this to be very annoying because one would think that NAIM uses circuit designs that are professional enough not to make such sound quality differences (for me this was another good reason to change too professional recording gear)

But now I discovered that this effect is also there between my 3 PSU’s (the Antec PSU + linear PSU on P4 + linear PSU on picoPSU-150-XT) . :-(
It does matter how the ‘Neutral’ and ‘Live’ 230 Volt positions are for each PSU.

Are there any other inmates with have experienced the same?
And what is theoretically the best way to determine what the optimal 230 Volts positions are between the 3 PSU for ‘Live’ and ‘neutral’?


* Now over too the other side of the PSU (12 Volt output)
There are also very small voltage differences between the (black Neutral 12 v lines) and the ground (earth).
- On the linear P24 PSU the differences between ‘Neutral’ and GRND is 3 mVolt.
- on the linear P4 PSU the differences between ‘Neutral’ and GRND is –20 mVolt.

Those two black ‘Neutral’ 12 volt line both go the mobo and 'meet' somewhere on the MoBo. I think.
- What happens with this 23 mVolt difference than? Is this earthed on the MoBo ?
- Should I ground both black ‘Neutral’ 12 volt lines directly at both PSU’s?
- should I connect both black ‘Neutral’ 12 volt lines together directly at both PSU’s?
- should I do both: connect them together at the PSU's and aerth them there a the PSU

Any suggestions?

 

assigning processes on dual core CPU, posted on December 3, 2009 at 10:07:08
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 dear forum,

I read one can assign different processes on dual core CPU´s.
my task manager list 15 processes, and I wonder if splitting the audio processes from the system ones, would make any sense.

has anyone tried this ?

kind regards
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

cMP does it for windows & player. cPlay 2.0b33 has just been released and supports VST:-), posted on December 4, 2009 at 07:54:56
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Let me know how it works out.

It's the first cPlay release that supports a VST plugin. Tested VST plugins: Allocator, AllocLite, 2 equalisers, and spectrum analyser.

Interesting...

 

HDD guidance, posted on December 4, 2009 at 10:17:23
harrybamboo
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: London
Joined: November 29, 2007
 Hello,
Aside from going for a 2.5" with external ps, I'm struggling for guidance on HDD's:

1. Has anyone found the enclosure makes a difference?
2. Is the rotation speed relevant with an external PS? Any reason not to go for WD 1TB 5400rpm over the Fujitsu 300GB 4200rpm?
3. Is one large drive better than two smalls?

My heart leans towards lower power & rotation speeds but my wallet leans towards capacity (head doesn't know where it is)

Any thoughts gratefully received.

 

RE: HDD guidance, posted on December 4, 2009 at 10:43:54
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 Has anyone found the enclosure makes a difference?

No except insofar as it affects noise. Based on an idea of GStew's, I put a 2lb cast iron weight from some old kitchen scales (gently . . .) on top of a bare 2.5" HDD resting on non-conducting foam. Though the drive was already almost inaudible, the weight killed all vibration and noise stone dead. Uncanny - give it a try.

Is the rotation speed relevant with an external PS? Any reason not to go for WD 1TB 5400rpm over the Fujitsu 300GB 4200rpm?

The 4,500 rpm model might be a tiny bit quieter but I can't get them any more. Besides, I'm sure the WD 1TB model is just fine. The difference in consumed power is trivial.

Is one large drive better than two smalls?

It's easier to implement; a 1TB drive will be quieter than 3 x 300GB ones.

I'd go for the WD unit. Somebody, somewhere will disagree.

 

RE: HDD guidance, posted on December 5, 2009 at 16:00:17
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 633
Location: NE Mississippi
Joined: September 21, 2001
 I figured since Ryelands dropped my Naim (anyone else remember the cute Naim ad with the amplifier having broken through the wooden floor at the crestfallen guy's feet with the caption 'I didn't mean to drop your Naim!'?), I thought I should respond too.

First, I totally agree with Dave on a single, larger, slower-rotation-speed drive being the better solution, sonically.

On HDD vibration isolation, I have my drive mounted to a square of bamboo flooring which sits on three 'Tenderfeet' damper feet from Herbie's Audio Lab (URL below). Then I currently have a homemade 'VPI Brick', which is nothing more than a laminated steel transformer core encased in heavy heatshrink (VPI built them into wooden cases, but I'm too lazy for that). Their theory was that the steel laminate block 'absorbs' much of the stray magnetic field and reduces the amount that radiates around. Don't know if it works, but the weight does make a difference, just like Dave said. Someday I'll try replacing it with a lead brick and see if that works any differently (I doubt, but I could be wrong).

I also have a sheet of ERS cloth wrapped around the drive. Dunno if that makes a difference, but I had it around, it was easy to put on, and I doubt it hurts.

My HDD is sitting on the bottom of the standard cMP^2 Zalman case. Having it sited 'just so' seems to be important. If I am working in the case and move things around, I need to make sure that the HDD is situated on the feet, not touching anything else in the case, and that the power and data cables are dressed so they don't touch anything between either end. More than once I've put it back together, heard that it sounded off (conjested, sluggish, blurred), and checked the HDD and it was not sited right. Putting it back restores the sound quality.

I'm slowly planning a homebuild case that will provide better isolation of the HDD... at least until SSD prices come down more.

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. In my experience, having the HDD separately powered is also very important. I'm a fan of well-built linear supplies here, but anything other than your main motherboard supply is a plus.

Everything matters!

 

What little I know about Neutral and grounds... (LONG, OF COURSE!), posted on December 5, 2009 at 16:30:31
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 633
Location: NE Mississippi
Joined: September 21, 2001
 First, in my experience, what you saw with the Naim gear is common to all transformer-based-linear-supply-powered components. Here's some background (and please forgive me for being somewhat basic here, not sure what info you already have).

For power transformers in linear supplies (not sure if this is the same for switching supplies), there is a non-symmetry to the windings that will induce a stray AC voltage in the transformer core and nearby metal parts. You can see this by hooking up a raw (unconnected to anything else) transformer primary connections to the AC line Hot and Neutral (do this safely with a fuse in line and the secondaries secured and insulated). Plug in the AC line and measure the AC voltage between the transformer core and the AC Ground and you will almost surely get a small (a few millivolts) to medium (a few volts) AC voltage reading. Swap the transformer primary connections around so that the line that went to Hot now goes to Neutral and vice-versa. Plug in the AC line again, measure between core and AC Ground again, and you will again get a small AC voltage reading, likely higher or lower than the first reading. When you wire your transformer primaries up, you want to use the orientation that gives you the lower AC voltage reading.

I first heard about this back in the 1980's. The tweak was that you took your piece of audio gear, disconnected all the inputs and outputs, then used a 'cheater' plug that only connected the Hot and Neutral, and measured between the component's ground and the AC ground. The 'right' way was again the one that gave you the lower AC reading. And it worked... it gave you a lower noise floor and a more detailed and natural sound if you got all the components AC plugs oriented the right way. Someone even sold a little tester to make this easy to do. (BTW, I've heard this called 'sexing' your transformers).

But what you were really detecting was the transformer orientation. And if you had a component that had more than one transformer (like my linear-powered computer supplies), then you had a problem if the manufacturer didn't know to do this and had them hooked up so that one transformer was oriented correctly when the other was not.

And as far as your Naim gear went, this is likely why it sounded different depending on the Neutral and Hot orientation... and this is still a factor with professional gear (assume that means balanced), but it may be less critical there... or maybe the professional gear you use just has all the transformers oriented the right way and the Naim gear didn't.

It's a lot easier when you are building components and power supplies from scratch. Then you just check each transformer before you wire it's AC connections permanently and make sure to do it correctly, so that when your AC plug is in the normal way (Hot-Neutral-Ground), each transformer has the lowest AC reading.

Now this gives you the right Hot-Neutral orientation. Grounds are something else. First, I have much less knowledge and experience here on what is right and how to implement it. What seems to be best with grounds is what's called a 'star' ground, where all the ground connections come back to a single point. This can be challenging in an audio system because you'll often have multiple components with ground connections on their AC cords. When you connect them to each other with your interconnects and speaker wires and plug them into the AC outlet, then there are multiple paths to ground which will often cause ground loops, where current is flowing through the grounds in ways that increase the noise level of the system. So one way to deal with this is to use those darned 'cheater' plugs on all components in your system except one, typically the amplifier, but sometimes the preamp. And if you have a bi-amped or tri-amped system, it becomes complicated and challenging. And of course, who knows how each component is grounded internally. It is complicated... and says a lot for the benefits of a single-manufacturer setup that has spent a lot of time optimizing grounding and AC line filtering, like Ayre's.

So now back to our cMP setups.

First, you want to do the transformer orientation thing for each of your linear supplies. Then if you have multiple power cords (I have three in my cMP^2 setup... one for the P24 & P4 power supplies, one for the separate supplies for the Juli@ & DAC, and one for the linear 'dirty' supplies), you want to have only one have the ground connection active... the other ones should have only Hot and Neutral connected. And the ground should go to the case... and somewhere there should be one connection from the circuit ground to the case. Of course, most computer cases and motherboards have multiple connections from the circuit ground to the case... it'd be worthwhile to insulate all but one and see if that makes a measurable or sonic difference.

In my cMP^2 setup, the P24/P4 linear supply power cord has the ground connected. In addition, since my transformers and heatsinks are on wooden platforms, I have a pigtail lead connected to a mounting screw on each that I take back to a single circuit/case ground point on the motherboard.

But of course, I don't have my setup 'right' because in addition to the cMP^2 being grounded, my amps are too. Need to fix that... in a setup like this, I'd likely have the computer be the main ground path.

My $50 (lots more than 2 cents here!)

Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!

 

RE: HDD guidance, posted on December 6, 2009 at 10:54:15
harrybamboo
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: London
Joined: November 29, 2007
 Thanks very much for this, its very helpful.

 

Thankx for the generous feedback. Is there difference in your setup?, posted on December 7, 2009 at 15:36:19
hfavandepas
 Hi Gstew,

Thank you for your response and such generous feedback. Bit and peaces of your post I knew already but you nicely ‘painted the big picture’. Your response waa helpful for me but I think your response is also much appreciated by other inmates who also power the P4, P24 and sphericals with separate (linear) power supplies.

I posted the question because:
1. there’s always a big chance of being tricked by ‘the placebo effect’:
2. and I also don’t know if these phenomena from the analog audio world also apply to the digital audio world. I know all ‘digital’ audio is analog, but I also know that a different set of rules applies too: processing analog sinus-waves and processing (square) block pulses (‘digital’ signals).

But did you hear (and other inmates who read this) difference in sound quality when powering the linear PSU’s with ‘Live’ and ‘Neutral’ in different positions?

If not, than most likely the placebo effect is fooling me.

 

Looks like grounding rules in digital systems are comparable to analog systems, posted on December 9, 2009 at 11:09:53
hfavandepas
 Hi Gstew,

After I checked ‘the sexual orientation’(muwahaha) of the linear PSU’s in my setup, as you discrebed, I was still puzzled about the grounding. Would the common rule that says: in a system with more than one module there should only be one (1) grounding point (preferably at the source module), also apply to digital systems?

After reading chapter 11 and 12 of ‘Digital Hardware Design’ I think the same grounding rules apply. I write ‘think ‘, because I have no professional education in electronics. Only some basic stuff. So I don’t know if I understand everything in chapter 11 and 12 real good.
http://www.ivorcatt.org/digihwdesignp73.htm

In a digital system with more than one module, the 0 Volt also should be grounded preferably at one point. And the grounds of the modules should be inter-connected.
Mostly this is already done by the main leads. But since in a cMP setup it is advised that the ATX PSU should be powered from a different AC circuit (thus also different grnd), the cMP case and the linear PSU grounds should be connected together. At least: that’s what I think needs to be done after reading chapter 11 and 12.
If I understand your post corretly, this is indeed what you do with your linear PSU’s and the pig-tail wire.

And may be that’s why TheoB noticed an improvement in sound quality (SQ) when he grounded his cMP case.

But, when I took an extra wire and grounded the cMP-case (and thus the ATX-psu) with this wire to the grounds of the 2 linear PSU’s, there wasn’t a SQ improvement in my setup. But I will leave the wire that’s connecting the cMP-case to the grounds of the linear PSU in place.
since it’s the suggested method to do so (if I understand correctly)

 

RE: Looks like grounding rules in digital systems are comparable to analog systems, posted on December 10, 2009 at 07:49:19
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Hi Mark just a slight clarification...when I grounded my mobo I found a slight increase in transparency.

 

RE: earthing arrangements and position of ‘Live’ and ‘Neutral’, posted on December 12, 2009 at 20:55:24
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 633
Location: NE Mississippi
Joined: September 21, 2001
 Mark,

First, I need to be honest and say that it's been many years since I've listened to gear with the AC sexed the wrong way... I check this as a matter of course when I'm building gear... and honestly, I'm not sure if there's a similar effect with SMPS's. The measurements I've done with them so far have been inconclusive, possibly a difference at the limits of my meter, but not definitive. I THINK they should have similar difference, but since the transformer is after the initial rectification, I'm not sure... and if you wanted to change it, you'd have to swap the inputs on the transformer, which could get challenging.

So sorry, can't answer the question on whether it makes an audible difference in our digital world.

But I'd guess it does... noise on the ground (and this is what we're minimizing with the correct hot/ground orientation) will impact connected analog gear... and I suspect will show up on the digital side as increased jitter.

And as for the grounding scheme, I wasn't convinced that the 'ground at the preamp' recommendation for all-analog setups was right and I'm not sure what is right for our analog/digital systems.

Gack!

I guess I need to go do some research now. So thanks for the link to the reference book... that'll be a good place to start.

Later!

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. Here's a good post by Charles Hansen of Ayre Acoustics where he relates tracking down an issue related to grounding... and not being able to measure what caused the difference. I personally believe grounding is still very much a black art, not because we don't understand the mechanism, but because the complexity of interactions are so high we can't effectively analyze it. So my take on it is to start by following the best practices and then experiment a bit to see if it can be made better... like connecting the case to wall-ground.


Everything matters!

 

CMP- Zalman HD160xt front panel usb, posted on December 13, 2009 at 13:38:03
harrybamboo
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: London
Joined: November 29, 2007
 Hello,

Is there any reason not to hook up the front panel usb's during CMP build? I would like to have one at the front for loading songs and one at the back for remote.
Any thoughts gratefully received!

 

RE: Why shouldn't we treat the CPU as a dirty device?, posted on December 13, 2009 at 14:44:32
JamesB
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Location: Wellington
Joined: December 26, 2000
 I'm using one of these to power all my HDDS and other devices, fits in a spare drive bay and is integrated with the power switch etc. I noticed a SQ improvement with my USB audio setup.

http://www.ocia.net/reviews/powerpartner/page1.shtml


 

RE: earthing arrangements and position of ‘Live’ and ‘Neutral’, posted on December 14, 2009 at 11:14:34
hfavandepas
 Hi Greg,

Again thankx for your response. Through our conversation I have now have on all PSU’s the Live and Neutral the correct way. And as a spin off, I now also have a better understanding of the difference between the 0V (neutral) and the ground. This was always a bit confusing to me, since many make no difference between 0Volt (neutral) and ground. Which resulted in now having also all the modules correctly grounded in my setup (by the book).

Mark

P.s.
The book ( http://www.ivorcatt.org/digital-hardware-design.htm ) was referred too on this forum by (if remember correctly) inmate Ryelands. Which I think was a very good thing to do, since the different set of rules between processing sine waves (analog audio) and shock waves (digital audio) are forgotten or mis-understood all too easy.

 

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