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In Reply to: RE: Nettop as an alternative posted by Douwe01nl on December 12, 2011 at 14:20:26
Hi Douwe,
thanks for your reply!
The nettop question is an interesting topic in general, I believe. And most likely relevant to many. Your statement proves that in my eyes and is exactly related ro what I'm thinking about.
I also figuered out that the fan must be the crucial part in a nettop. Besides the BIOS probably, but since nettops already run in powersaving mode by nature tweaking on that side might not be too effective, eventually.
I was wondering about several things:
- cics claims cPlay's resampling to be a very intensive calculating process. But since the Core i3 is strangled to the maximum it should work with almost any nettop CPU, shouldn't it?
- will a nettop's CPU really become too hot? I'll try it with the Lenovo S205 (equipped with an AMD E350) I'll receive soon. I hope I'll find some software to switch of the fan. I'll report on that.
- in case of effective fan control and using an SSD plus an external USB-HDD that itself is powered externally a nettop seems to be very close by nature to a desirable cMP²-system according to cics' principles, it seems to me. Some notebooks and nettops almost never spin uo the fan, so a fairly cool, fanless design seems to be generally possible. It will depend very much on the calculating power needed by cPlay's resampler since the rest of the system is suffocated anyway. WIN7 might need a lot more calculating power by itself...
More opinions please! Thanks in advance.
Eunegis
Follow Ups:
Laptop/notebook will never get higher than second best, SQ-wise. The Lenovo S205 is a laptop, and very difficult to tweak hardware wise (fan control by software is bad for sq and cause vibrations, hdmi-port is noisy like JackWong stated). Sorry about my remark on nettop-cpu running hot: i meant netbook-cpu. I think nettops
CMP and best SQ is all about tweaking software AND hardware AND BIOS and lots of time (and brings lots of fun, imo).
Allmost all, if not all, nettops have very unflexible bios (maybe except for FitPC?), so you should choose very carefully, read manuals etc.
otoh some inmates have very good resultswith atom or FitPC, like Ryelands:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/9/97956.html
Like cics states in the guide atoms can upsample to 96, but you need core i3 SSE4 to upsample to 192KHz.
So wait for the Lenovo, try cmp, try tweaking software. If you have fun in tweaking and want more, do the next step to core i3 (or wait for my reports on Atom@900MHz, hopefully somwhere in january). Take time to listen and enjoy music.
cheers!
Douwe
Hi Douwe,
I hear what you are saying! Nevertheless: I'll try it.
I was wondering what role a netbooks batteries are playing in that game. If I leave the netbook plugged into the electric outlet while its battery remains installed, will the battery behave like a kind of power filter? It should in my imagination, since it is charged even while using the netbook, so electric power will not bypass the battery. Right?
Eunegis
Hi Eunegis,
Like to share my experience relating to netbook's various power supply configurations.
I have been using Acer Aspire One + Devilsound USB dac/cable for over a year, and have been through the following configs.- in the time sequence of implementation:
1. Aspire One's native switching PS
2. Aspire One's battery unit
3. Workbench linear PS
4. Linear PS + USB isolator + external USB battery PS
5. Aspire One battery + USB isolator + external USB battery
6. Linear PS + Aspire One battery + USB isolator + external USB battery
2. was totally not workable, the battery pack did not have enough juice to power the USB dac. 3, 4, and 5 all had BIG SQ improvement, with 5 the biggest-really one of a different magnitude. What was most unexpected was the bass, with much better definition and body. What was previously a bit digitally thin was no more and the sound sings with analog glory. Though 5. was a bit dark sounding with some recordings. But the darkness was gone with 6.
To cut to the chase, battery power is essential for a good sound in netbook, and yes, net + battery gives you the best of both worlds.
KC
Hi KC,
great! That's useful experience.
-> What linear PS and USB-Isolator did you use? I've always had trouble with finding a linear PS with an acceptable WAF - usualy the are not living room compatible. And I have no experience with USB-isolators at all.
-> Does the Devilsound DAC provide asynchronous operation?
Eunegis
Hi Eunegis,
My linear PS is a Chinese made regular workbench PS I got in Beijing. Looks OK to me as a technical equipment. You can always hide it if you want. I just put it on the floor behind the speakers so it is mainly out of sight.
You can find info on the USB isolator on the cMP site here, under optimizing USB Dacs:
http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CMP.10Soundcard
I got mine (exactly the one shown in the photo) in Taobao, a Chinese ecommerce site. I must emphasis that IMO the isolator is a must if you are using a USB Dac.
No, Devilsoubnd is not asyn. I use it because of cost and convenience (no need to think about cables on both end and USB powered). But this little guy just surprise me to no end. Big sound and no matter whatever optimization I'd done over the year, and you know that there are a lot, esp. recently by steppe and all, I have never out grow this guy, i.e. the effects of various optimizations are quite noticeable through it.
KC
I found this little thing here... (see link below)
Looks very handy and clean, no fiddling.
I only don't understand how it can isolate if it still transmits power...???
You guys, comment, please!
There are many similar adaptors on the market, probably employing the same ADU chip.
It only works up to 48 kHz. It is compatible with USB 2.0 but up to Full Speed, NOT High Speed required for higher sample rates.
Just a short update:
the USB2ISO works generally at least up to 96kHz - I tested it myself with Audio-gd's Digital Interface hanging behind it (which utilizes a Tenor TE7022 receiver chip).
Generally I think I'll keep my netbook. I found for myself that a good ASIO driver contributes more to sound quality than the type of computer or DAC. Saying that, I'm talking about precision, transparency and extension of sound, not so much about brighter/darker - the latter can be tuned by the choosing a certain DAC or Amp.
[The ADuM4160] only works up to 48 kHz.
I reported on this list that I could get the device to 48 KHz only. Soundchekk (who first suggested I try it) reported that it works up to 96 KHz. I concluded that the issue was something to do with the driver I was using. Someone who bought one on my recommendation also runs it at 96 KHz.
HTH
Dave
Thanks for pointing that out.
The limitation is then only for newer 192kHz drivers...
Hi KC,nice hints! I've ordered an ADuM4160 USB-isolator in the meantime after having read your post. I've even found out through cics' hint that it is availible right here at home in Europe. What a small world... I'm curious to find out about its sonic properties!
At the moment I'm listening to the new netbook. Even though it's through Vista (moderately tweaked) with the latest foobar and a Musiland Monitor 02US used as an asynchronous USB-> SPDIF-converter (very latest drivers 2.2.0) plus a new amplifier with inbuilt DAC (Onkyo A-5VL) results are already very pleasant. A comparison to my fully optimized cMP²-system (no Juli@ though, but Audio-gd's Digital Interface and NFB-2 DAC) plus a nice KT-88 tubeamp is yet to come.
And at the moment the netbook's fully tweaked XP-system including minlogon doesn't recognize the Digital Interface, the Musiland Monitor or an USB-HDD. There's some more fiddling ahead of me, I guess... (though so far no bug has remained unsolved ;-D)I'll let anyone who's interested know about my comparisons, but it will take a week or two at least to be serious. Until then I'm (and maybe others are) curious about all other experience and suggestions related to the netbook-way-to-do-it!
Eunegis
Edits: 12/17/11
Hi,
Nice to hear that you are moving from a 'full' setup to a laptop; while I'm trying to do the opposite. Not that I am unhappy with the current sound, in fact I am absolutely delighted with what I'm hearing now, what with the recent tweaks by steppe and all, I am getting the sound of my previous full analog gear. (Infinity RS1, Sota Diamond, Decca cartridge etc.)
Please note that if you want to externally power your USB isolator, you'll have to do a couple of soldering jobs. However, because your dac is self-powered, the benefit you could derived from the ADuM4160 might not be as great as mine.
When you said 'fully tweaked XP' do you mean the full spectrum of the steppe tweaks (22+ I think)? If yes, then your USB doesn't work is a given because the full steppe tweaks are not taking the USB into account. You would need to find out what files are needed to enable the USB to be functional and restore them.
KC
Hi KC,
fully tweaked XP is meant only according to cics' recommendations.
I tried to find out about steppes tweaks in the Asylum. Information seems to be scattered all over, and tweaks look extremely aggressive. So its difficult to find a point to start at - would the post linked below make sense???
Have you cross-tested all of steppes tweaks already?
Eunegis
Hi Eunegis,
(This really belongs to the cPlay thread.)
I understand the confusion and I think many inmates would agree. I am confused too. But (steppe and others) tweaks are important.
I am currently at steppe 4 +Jilida 2 + some of steppe's later tweaks (lets call them watchdog, shell32 trim, and 3 mermaids). All these tweaks in totality makes a huge difference. I had went beyond steppe 4 (to steppe 8, I think) but then had to retract because I didn't liked the sound, way too thin. I will venture forth with further tweaks after I setup my multi-partition, multi-boot hard drive. The only way to do these later dangerous tweaks is to have a multi-boot/partition drive and a good backup/restore procedure. But then early tweaks are quite safe.
My suggestion:
1. Go to steppe's earliest tweak post and then start from there:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/9/91415.html
read everyone's comment and then decide whether you want to go forward with it.
2. email Julida and ask for his Bitches Batch (a series of batch files to do the tweaks so that you don't have to remove each file/dll manually)
3. set up a mutli-boot/partition hard drive with a backup/restore procedure so that you can go back to a saved backup if something goes wrong.
KC
...by the way:
my DAC is self-powered - but the Digital Interface (SPDIF-> USB-converter) is not! So maybe at this signal's crucial turning point the power isolator may help.
And not recognizing DI, Musiland and HDD is strange since USB-sticks are recognized normally. It may have something to do with the power level on the USBs and those three devices demanding more power than USB-sticks, but I don't know yet, and I haven't heard of any ways to adjust that so far. I believe that's done automatically and can be seen in the properties dialog of each hub.
E
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