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cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player

41.183.0.21
Posted on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
cMP

The open source high-end Memory Player

December 2007

Music delivery is perfected. cMP (cics Memory Player) delivers memory playback (without RAMDisk or other utilities) thereby eliminating disk interference during playback.

In creating cMP, its critical objective was the implementation of fundamental designs that:

  1. Remove disk traffic interference during playback without having the inconvenience of manually loading files into a virtual RAM drive, etc..
  2. Ensure time critical sample delivery to the external DAC. Streaming of samples from precision upsampled (to 24/96) sound buffers to the soundcard must be fast, lean and mean! There's no room for any bottlenecks or overheads here, otherwise we risk increasing jitter and compromise Bit Transparency.
  3. Provide better power supply and remove the need for a ferrite core on the mouse connection.
  4. Provide flexibility to choose any player (Foobar2000, Winamp etc.).
  5. Further minimize the Windows footprint to that more optimal than XP's Embedded SP2 operating system as used in large scale commercial applications. This provides the foundation for the 2nd design goal.
  6. Offer a CD/DVD-ROM drive without impacting sound quality.
  7. Offer proper remote usability as locating that mouse cursor from a distance is cumbersome.
  8. Contain costs but also allow for a complete elegant one box solution.

Such designs in theory should render a stunning sonic experience. Its implementation however was a massive challenge. Did this theory meet the sonic expectations? Yes as evidenced in cMP's bit perfect performance and ultra low jitter.

How does it sound? The most descriptive word that comes to mind is emotional. cMP's sonic purity is truly profound. It grips those musical lines across any genre with remarkable precision. Soundstage improves, there's better layering and even more ambient information. Bass is tighter, with natural vocals & instruments.

FRONT



BACK



More pictures and screenshots are available from the cMP documentation link provided below.

FEEDBACK

Pre-release testing by music lovers located all over the world yielded further insight and perfection of cMP.

  • A music lover based in the US with limited or no computer training:

    This has been a great way to learn about computers in addition to making something very useful for enjoying music.

    Compared to my ###### (read expensive high-end traditional CD transport), even with some tweaking and learning left to do, this sounds much better. Dynamic, yet relaxed (effortless?).

    I started listening last night at 7:00 and had to force myself to go to bed at twelve. Amazing spaciousness. It is truly getting close to GREAT analog and is much better than average analog already. It is simply amazing.

    I found your instructions easy to follow ONCE I understood what I was being told to do. To repeat, I have never done anything like this before, so your instructions were clear without resorting to "hand holding". I think the process was easier than you warned. I kept saying to myself, "that wasn't so bad!"

    After cMP:

    My only audio friends are very analogue-centric. Sometime in January I am going to have them over to audition the cMP. I think they are going to be amazed. Of course, I am confident that JULI@ is going to be the icing on the cake. If this takes the whole thing another step closer I think they will be grateful that one can enjoy listening to CD's as much as LP's. Of course, in many ways your approach does things even LP's cannot do. It is becoming a toss-up, but the best kind; one can enjoy either one equally well!

  • A music lover based in Europe with more than 2000 CDs:

    the quality of sound reproduction is quite amazing. My motivation for building was that I am not wealthy and could never dream of, let alone buy, a high-end CD player. Even this project was considerably more than I could properly afford and I began it with some trepidation. But it's been well worth it.

    After cMP:

    I spent several hours last night testing the latest cMP. I did several A/B runs with cMP on the one hand and Foobar launched via old batch files and reading direct from disk on the other. There is no doubt in my mind that the sound using cMP is a significant improvement even with my modest setup.

    The quality is quite stunning, significantly better than previous. (My partner agrees with this - she's no audio junkie but she is an informed music lover.)

  • A music lover based in Australia:

    I have been wanting to relay to you my own experience with your methods and give you some feedback . So far, I have found your approach produces very good results so I must convey to you my thanks and appreciation. At some point soon I will formalise my thoughts and send them to you or post them. I believe what you have done has become an excellent resource/asset to people interested in PC Audio.


FEATURES

  1. Disk traffic interference during playback is eliminated. Advanced RAM playback is based on available physical RAM (as reported by Task Manager or Process Explorer). This means up to 4GB (XP's limit) can be used allowing for 24/192 RAM playback. Recommendation is to use 1GB RAM (which yields available physical RAM of ~830MB - enough for any CD at 16/44.1). cMP achieves memory playback via the system cache and not through a simulated virtual drive. This approach removes Windows disk I/O overheads (irrespective of whether disk is physical or virtual) hence, it's more optimal.

  2. Extensive Windows & Player (Foobar2000 or other) optimizations yielding much lower jitter and bit perfect delivery. System level optimizations are done at runtime (which cannot be achieved using .bat files and utilities like Process Explorer). cMP is designed to work with 32 CPU cores!

  3. Open architecture. cMP allows for any player to be used: Foobar2000, XXHighEnd, Winamp etc. (player just needs to handle .cue files like foobar2000 otherwise play entire .wav). Any ripper software can be used (as long as it conforms to .cue single file standard like those created by EAC). Additional flexibility is provided, for example use cMP to drive your HTPC playing any movie from any genre (a .cue file for each .iso file is needed).

  4. All .cue files are processed by cMP which means the player focuses only on playing the CD. In Foobar2000, the album list control component is not needed. In techno speak this is called separation of concerns.

  5. Power delivery to the mobo is improved by further reducing interference. The need for a ferrite core is removed.

  6. Full function remote control using a wireless mouse is achieved. Your entire library can be navigated: play any CD, eject it, jump to any track or change volume. This is achieved using just ONE mouse button: the Wheel! Use the mouse as a normal one (left-click) or hold it in your hand (like a remote control) and wheel away using your thumb. Of course other buttons are used for more convenience. There's no need to find that tiny mouse cursor and left click! (You can still do this if needed).

  7. Your entire library that you so diligently ripped is fully compatible with cMP. No proprietary / lock-in stuff here which forces you to re-rip. Just point cMP to your music folders containing .cue and .wav files (or flac or other). cMP supports any content file as long as cue files are defined for them. For flac content files, the known EAC bug of adding an additional .flac suffix to the content file's name must be removed (otherwise your cue's content file directive will not be found).

  8. CD/DVD-ROM drive is implemented without compromising playback quality. For the purist, this can be unplugged without opening computer or rebooting.

Bottom line: cMP is a (one box) highly advanced memory player that's easy to setup and use. cMP's core strength lies in newly developed operating system software components (built in c/c++) that uses XP SP 2 as a foundation. Windows Explorer is done away with while cMP takes over and more. Bit perfect delivery is achieved yielding an ultra high resolution of more than 23.5 bits (a limitation in measuring instruments prevents measuring cMP's perfect resolution). DAC's have yet to achieve this resolution (as a minimum of 141db SNR is needed)! For cMP's bit perfect measurements, see (Bit Perfect Measurement & Analysis ).


GETTING STARTED

Visit cicsMemoryPlayer.com where you'll find detailed easy to follow instructions and much more.

Ensuring clean AC power delivery to equipment is very important. For DAC, pre-amp and amplifiers, use a dedicated AC circuit. For source equipment, use another AC circuit as this is where cMP's main PSU should be powered from. Use another less important AC circuit for powering cMP's 2nd dirty power inlet. Use of quality power cords and line conditioners is recommended.


Special thanks to those that provided such brilliant feedback and suggestions during pre-release testing. cMP's software is at version 1.0b as more feedback is desired. Your input, insights, criticisms, experiences and suggestions all help.

Thank you.

 

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    ...
Helpdesk : RME Soundcard not recognized, posted on June 8, 2011 at 09:01:34
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Dear Forum,

I´ve run out of ideas to fix this.

I disk imaged my own (relative standard) cMP2 OS onto an identical friends computer.
now his system boots fine with this imaged copy, but we cannot get the system to recognize any hardware....his RME 9632 Hammerfall card.

nothing to be found.
we installed intel chipset drivers....nada.
we´ve searched the interrupt registry...nada
run the hardware install manager 25 times...nada
searched the device manager...nada

how come that an entire computer cannot recognize ANYTHING ?
what driver / module could be missing ?

the RME 9632 is brand new...the GA-H55M-UD2H and the i3-540 Core Intel also brand new.

any ideas are greatly appreciated


kind regards

Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: Helpdesk : RME Soundcard not recognized, posted on June 8, 2011 at 10:14:47
hfavandepas
 Hi Playmate,

Just a wild guess and quick shot from the hip:

If it is a cMP setup according to Cic’s recipe: than you have most services disabled.
For recognizing new hardware and enabling that new hardware etc, some services are needed.
Once the hardware is properly installed and working, these services can be disabled.

I don’t know by heart exactly which services. From memory I think I can remember Cics wrote down which services are needed for this. But I’m not sure where I red it. If Cics wrote that down on his website or in his earlier documents ‘The art off building computer transports’.

Also: if you did apply the minlogon, I'm not sure it is possible too enable and disable these services.

Forinstance: autoruns only works before min-logon. After min-logon it will not startup.

So it even might be caused by multiple causes: min-logon + services.

Have a good scan in Cics older documents and/or website. It’s somewhere down there.

Mark

 

RE: Helpdesk : RME Soundcard not recognized, posted on June 8, 2011 at 11:01:27
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 if you did apply the minlogon, I'm not sure it is possible too enable and disable these services

Yes, it is. All Services can be started and stopped no trouble under minlogon.

I'd start with the Windows Installer and Cryptographic services - note that, though cics wrote lots of things, what fixes the problem can be system specific. You might also need to re-enable some System Devices.

And who knows what else?

Also, you're right about Autoruns not running after the minlogon tweak.

Fun, fun, fun . . .

Dave

 

RE: Helpdesk : RME Soundcard not recognized, posted on June 8, 2011 at 11:51:15
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: December 18, 2008
 "Services needed for most other functions are the Event Log, WMI, COM+ Event System, COM+ System Application and DCOM Server Process Launcher. To update a sound card driver, set Event Log, Cryptographic Services, Windows Audio and WMI to Automatic and start them. Once the update is installed and stable, reset them to Manual."

"An issue with RME soundcards
A workround is needed when using the latest RME soundcards with cMP and there is no sound output even though setup seems correct. They require firmware initialisation which is done with configuration routines launched by Windows Explorer. cMP disables this.

Switch cMP to XP mode and restart the system to initialise the RME firmware;
Play a CD using Foobar2000 to check that the soundcard is working;
Start cMP, switch to cMP mode and restart – do not shut down as power to the soundcard will be lost and the firmware will need to be re-initialised;
The system can be re-started as often as necessary but this cycle must be repeated if it is powered down. "

 

WHAT ????, posted on June 8, 2011 at 16:50:04
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Thanks a lot for your swift replies.

My dear new cMP friend (wonder if it may last...) is located 400 miles from here, so it´s a bit of a hazzle to direct him through the phone :-(
-bummer.
I´ve talked him into an easy "let me do a disk image for you" -affair.

Have a feeling that we can resolve at least the driver issue somehow, but that RME is depending so much on the windows thing worries me....
-how confirmed is this ?

Does it mean that the computer has to stay on at all times ?

If that´s true, we should issue a clear warning against RME on our forum here !


kind regards


Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: WHAT ????, posted on June 8, 2011 at 22:53:10
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: December 18, 2008
 I think that perhaps the original warning on RME cards issued by cics is not valid anymore.

This is a link from this forum:

 

indeed very nice and very informative post too. thank you for that., posted on June 9, 2011 at 05:44:40
hfavandepas
 Hi Audio Bling,

Thank you for posting. Very nice indeed. It’s always nice too read about other inmates thoughts, considerations, actions and projects.
I find it very helpful for inspiration and as food for thought.
Thank you for taking the time and effort too write this post.

I’m curious why did you choose too let yourself build this DIY linear PSU design over buying two commercially available linear PSU’s?
I’m still hesitating if I also should embark on such DIY linear PSU journey myself.

Especially since it is not very clear too me what exact performance is needed from a PSU too get best possible sound from a cMP setup.
May be only some optimizations in certain area’s are needed too meet the demands for best possible sound quality from a cMP setup.
(I very much hesitate too apply: ‘what is good for analog audio is also good for digital audio’)

When I study DIY linear PSU designs, they almost all have in common that these designs are very straight forward.
(rectifier bridge, regulator, some sort of smoothing and noise filtering)
Contrary too the designs of commercial available linear PSU’s which have very complex designs.
This makes me think that these simple straight forward DIY designs heavily rely on near ideal behavior of the applied parts (“right” components).
So inevitably only very expensive parts can be used.

I can understand that the large 10mH Hammond choke is intended to be a massive wall for high frequency noise.
(although I’m not sure until what high frequencies that massive choke is still effective.)
Where there any other considerations why you especially choose this DIY linear PSU design?

Mark

 

did you made any progress with the use of ferrites on the P24?, posted on June 9, 2011 at 08:09:51
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

I was wondering if you did some more experimenting with clamping extra ferrite beads onto the P24 lines?

I now have also very good results on the P24. Same results as on the P4. My cMP setup never sounded so good !
More micro details, background is ‘blacker than black’, broad and deep soundstage, highs are very detailed but at the same time smooth and ‘creamy’. It’s the same type of sound quality improvement as I when installing an SSD.
It is somewhat amazing and puzzeling that nobody else than you reported a sound quality improvement

I think they did not clamp enough ferrite beads on to the P24.
The P4 only needs 1 or 2.
But the P24 needs ‘heavy clamping’.
I have now 11 ferrite beads clamped onto the P24 lines.

* What I tried to optimize the effect of the ferrites clamps on the P24.

- To prevent DC biases as much as possible, ideally the + and – currents through a ferrite clamp should be equal. So when clamping individual voltage lines, I make sure that at least one black wire runs trough every ferrite bead when clamping individual voltage lines.

- a ferrite bead should be snugly around a wire to make sure that the magnetic field of the wire is closest too the ferrite.
But there is a lot of air around the 2 mm wires inside a ferrite beads hole of 12 mm. So mostly the wires are not really close too the ferrite. To push the wires against the ferrite wall, I also clamp some little paper of plastic object inside the ferrite clamp. This little object pushes the wires against the ferrite when I close the clamp.


- I also thought of using a 6 mm iron bolt inside the ferrite to push the wires against the ferrite. But since iron is magnetic I’m not sure if it will enhance the working of the ferrite bead or if the irion bold will degrade the working of the ferrite bead.

- Today I also ordered little round ferrite bars (8mm diameter 50 mm long costing 0,89 euro cents) too put inside the ferrite clamp. Also too push the ‘+’ wire and the black ‘0 volt’ wire against the ferrite inside walls. My be this even has a better effect than using a paper of plastic object inside.


With these ‘optimizations’ and with the use of 11 ferrite beads on the P24, the effect is really amazing !
It’s definitely not subtle and a rather big sound quality improvement.
Which easily equals the transfer from an ATX to an Linear PSU on the P4
Or equals the transfer from a HDD to a SSD.

I’m a little surprised that there are no other enthusiastic reports from other inmates.
I painstakingly checked and measured my system for setup faults (ground loups, possible extra noise sources, etc, etc) but I can’t really find anything wrong with it.

So I hope you did (or are going to do) some more experiments with ferrites on the P24.

Results so far:
Clamping the P4 works and is easy.
Clamping the P4 gives good results, both when using a linear PSU but also when using a standard ATX PSU. I tried both.

Clamping the P24 also gives very good results, but needs ‘massive clamping’.
At least in my system it needs 8 to 11 properly and carefully (!) clamped ferrites

Mark

 

RE: indeed very nice and very informative post too. thank you for that., posted on June 9, 2011 at 08:50:51
Audio Bling
Audiophile

Posts: 307
Location: Australia
Joined: October 9, 2007
 Hello Mark,

You are right to say that it is not known what performance from a PSU is required to get the best from cMP. We have still to work that one out!

My case is that I wanted to experiment with a choke PSU. If you read John Swenson’s post – this was his strong recommendation. So, partly, I was guided by his advice but not entirely. I have, for example, heard amplifiers and even DACs with choke power supplies and believe that they are characteristically “smooth”. However, whether or not this experience necessarily translates to a PC power supply is a fair question. I am not certain. You also make a point about commercial designs being “complex”. It strikes me that this so because they are designed with other uses in mind, whereas the Swenson design has one use in mind – digital audio.

If you are asking me: How did I know for sure that something bespoke was the best way to go? The truth is I didn’t – I simply had the opinion that something built to a proven design with quality parts by someone who I trust would give me a better result than the alternative. However, if someone whom I trusted had made a strong recommendation for something commercially available that worked for digital audio, my decision would have been different. But that hasn’t happened.

Regards,

 

Trying it now, posted on June 9, 2011 at 09:16:34
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 This is spooky weird because 5 minutes before your post I stripped the nylon sheathing off my p24 bundle and put 3 massive ferrites around at least 2 black and 2 red wires (plus other wiress) each and letting my system warm up. I'll let you know sq results in a while.

 

RE: indeed very nice and very informative post too. thank you for that., posted on June 9, 2011 at 09:24:43
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 Just to make the point that, aside from the choke, John's design doesn't actually use exotic components. None of the selected capacitors, rectifiers, resistors, etc are boutique and even the choke is a stock item. They can all be purchased from Mouser.

The design aims not so much to provide the cleanest of ultra-clean supplies to the powered device but to prevent noise from the powered device feeding back into the mains supply and thus into other devices in the system. As noted in John's original post:

. . . the design has been tuned for these parts, if you substitute other parts it may not work as well. Don't skip the choke, it is what makes this design work. The resistors can be 1/4W or 1/2W carbon or metal film. Cheap ones work fine here, they don't have to be super expensive audiophile types. C1 should be a film type, I use the Sprauge orange drop, but others will work as well.

The design is a bit unusual, it uses a choke in a low voltage design. This has some interesting properties. Primary among them is the use of a fairly small first cap which radically cuts down on the peak currents through the diodes. With low peak currents and Schottky diodes there is essentially no RF noise in this design. And on top of that I added a secondary snubber (C1 and R1) which prevents the transformer from resonating as well. The upshot is that this is one of the cleanest power supplies you will ever find, it has no RF and has one of the lowest impacts on the main AC line as it's possible to get with a PS.

See link.

I built one to power my Fit-PC2 and another to power a three-tower DDDAC. For the latter, I used a larger transformer (80VA, split bobbin as specified) and slightly more elaborate voltage regulator circuits, one for each tower. Though they're passing about 1.2 amps, neither the transformer nor the choke get warm let alone hot.

Both PSUs made for big SQ improvements.

I'm delighted for Audio Bling that his investment of time and money has worked so well - many thanks for a useful report.

 

RE: Trying it now, posted on June 9, 2011 at 09:53:05
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 In the us they say homerun!! or touchdown!!! I guess you guys in Europe say goaaaaaaaaaaallllll!! Nice positive impact on sq.

 

RE: did you made any progress with the use of ferrites on the P24?, posted on June 10, 2011 at 02:14:22
kclo


 
"More micro details, background is ‘blacker than black’, broad and deep soundstage, highs are very detailed but at the same time smooth and ‘creamy’"

Well said, hfavandepas, I couldn't agree more. I didn't responded sooner because: I didn't have the opportunity to listen to my system carefully until now; and I am still using a netbook as my primary source (having such a good time with it that there is no hurry on my part to upgrade to the 'real thing') and thought that my system is not typical enough.

Anyway, I now have 4 ferrite chokes in my system, 2 on the power cable from the linear power supply to the netbook, and 2 on the power line feeding the switching PS of the hard drive which is connecting to the netbook through USB. Apart from the improvements as stated by you, I also notice that recording that I found sounding thin (Bonnie Raitt's 'Give It Up') previously now really blossom into full body sonic. All recordings now have very good to fantastic sound stage, not just the well-recorded ones.

Good listening.

 

I'm now on my 6th ferrite on p24 on the P24..., posted on June 10, 2011 at 04:52:04
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...and it keeps getting better. Highs get less bright but more detailed. Depth increases and space between instrument especially on densely recorded pieces become more textured. I'm really loving it.

 

What is your ‘clamping strategy’ too keep DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects lowest possible?, posted on June 10, 2011 at 05:27:32
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

Nice improvements huh ?
I also like it very much.
Hopefully there wil be no possible ‘deleterious effect’ as BiBo01 pointed at.

What is your ‘clamping strategy’ too keep DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects lowest possible?

Do you just clamp all ferrite clamps in a row (one after the other) on the P24?
Or
do you clamp individual combinations of + and – wires?

Also: if you use Ferrite clamps with large hole diameters (8 – 12 mm) , how do push the 2 mm + and – wires ontoo the ferrite inside the bead? The wires need too be in immidate and close contact with ferrite.

Mark

 

RE: What is your ‘clamping strategy’ too keep DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects lowest possible?, posted on June 10, 2011 at 07:21:04
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Don't know what you mean about low frequency bias perhaps you can elaborate a bit more. I'm just putting more clamps on as many groups of wires as possible. I try to keep black and red wires (at least 2 or more) in each ferrite.I try to space the ferrites but they are close. I put the clamps where I can easily access p24 wires. But it seems to work. I get more of an impact when the clamp is tight on the wires.

 

What combination of individual P24 wires can/will result in a ‘zero net magnetic flux density’?, posted on June 10, 2011 at 08:16:45
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

See page 109 and 110 and figures: 14, 15, 16 and 17.

In particular: “the ferrite “sees” equal and opposite DC currents and thus zero net magnetic flux density. The ferrite will be able to provide maximum series impedance for high frequency common mode currents and remain unaffected by the DC operation of the encircled conductors”

So when not bundlling all 24 wires into one ferrite, one has too make a combination of wires that (at best) also will result in a ‘zero net magnetic flux density’.

So I’m curious what comibination of wires you bundle too achieve a ‘zero net magnetic flux density’.

Or, 2nd best (when it is not possible to make any combination of wires which results in zero-DC magnetic flux) what combination of wires do you bundle into one ferrite bead to achieve the lowest possible non-zero DC?

I’m especially interested in how to bundle the bleu -12 volt wire, the grey PWR-OK wire, the green PS-On/Of wire and the purple STD-BY wire. As I also expect HF-noise too spread through these wires, so I want too clamp these wires too.

Mark

 

RE: What combination of individual P24 wires can/will result in a ‘zero net magnetic flux density’?, posted on June 10, 2011 at 08:42:54
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I do try my best to keep a + and - wire in a ferrite. am I combining the right ones? I'm not sure. Unless there is a way to know I just guess.

 

I'm now on my 6th ferrite on p24 on the P24..., posted on June 10, 2011 at 10:17:54
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...and it keeps getting better. Highs get less bright but more detailed. Depth increases and space between instrument especially on densely recorded pieces become more textured. I'm really loving it.

 

Fantastic , posted on June 11, 2011 at 03:55:22
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 After a day or so of listening I have to tell you I have had several days of what I call 'religious experiences' while playing back many of my music files. The sense of depth and large space is extremely good...better than I have experienced ims before. But what is most rewarding is the unraveling of detail in densely orchestrated pieces where I have been hearing instruments in new more lifelike ways. Lots of air. Lots of definition ... not hyper detail but natural robust lower midrange/bass timbre and better highs. At 1st the tweak can almost be offputting like some information has been deleted/lost but after a few hours its like ...where did that come from.

So bottom line I love this tweak. If you try it just give it some time.

 

May be ferrite beads should be part of the standard cMP recipe. But what is the easiest way too clamp the P24 , posted on June 11, 2011 at 05:57:09
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

Thankx you for reporting these results.

I hope other inmates will start too experiment too with ferrite beads too as I find the results in my setup truly amazing. And best of all: ferrite beads are relatively easy too apply. Especially applying them on the P4 power line is a no-brainer.

Clamping the P24 I find more complicated as I still haven’t made up my mind op on which ‘clamping strategy’ is most simple and/or most effective.

When applying ferrites on individual wire pairs on the P24 special attention is needed is too make sure the ferrite “sees” equal and opposite DC currents so that there will be zero net magnetic flux density inside the ferrite bead. This way avoiding the ferrite too be less effective or even without any effect (saturated) through DC effects.
I think the paper from:
Tim Williams, Elmac Services, ‘Using ferrites for interference suppression’
http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/ferrite.pdf
and/or the paper from
manufacterer Steward on ‘The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’
http://www.steward.com/pdfs/emi/technical/Use%20of%20Ferrites%20in%20EMI.pdf
are both very clear on these pitfalls.

In what way or in what arrangement did you use the ferrite beads on the P24?
I would very much like too hear from other inmates on how they solved ‘clamping the P24’ problem.

Roughly I see three methods:

1. Brut force
Clamping 6 to 8 Ferrite beads (hole diameter 12 mm) in a row on the P24.
Downside: some individual wires deep inside the P24 bundle of wires, will never be in close contact with the ferrite. Although twisting the P24 bundle of wires helps some what to bring individual wire too the surface of the wire bundle.

2. clamping individual wires pairs or groups of wires on the P24.
Downside: how to prevent mismatching the wires that will result in a non-zero sum of magnetic flux density which will make the ferrite less effective or may be even saturated.

3. Using a flat bead ferrite for ribbon cables with use of a P24 extension or so.
See: http://www2.conrad.nl/goto.php?artikel=501962
All individual wires of a P24 (extension) cable can be flattened out side by side and than put through a a flat bead ferrite for ribbon cables.
This way all individual P24 wires will be in close contact with the ferrite. And also the brut force method could be applied by using 2 or more flat bead ferrites for ribbon cable in a row on too the P24.
Downside: May be: bulky. But clamping the P24 is a bulky mess anyhow. No matter what method is going too be used. A lot off ferrite is needed.


All ideas welcome.


Mark

(suffering from a bad case of ‘Ferritus Clampingditus’)

 

RE: May be ferrite beads should be part of the standard cMP recipe. But what is the easiest way too clamp the P24 , posted on June 11, 2011 at 06:13:25
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 All I can say is that I'm looking for optimum clamping too. Using my random strategy has yielded good results so I'll stay here a while and then try moving them around.

 

RME problem solved, posted on June 11, 2011 at 08:18:00
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Thanks for your replies guys.

....as so often, one just need to know or get a hint of what to turn back on :-)
flipped some of the suggested services on again, and the thing went through installation in a bliss.

kind regards
L.
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

How to kill "cicsRemote.exe", posted on June 12, 2011 at 00:47:46
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Dear Forum,

I wonder if anyone knows how to configure the system, so that cicsRemote does not start as service ?
Since I´m not using a touchscreen, it seems un-necessary, but how do I un-install it ?

Thanks for your help (again)
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: How to kill "cicsRemote.exe", posted on June 12, 2011 at 04:01:23
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 I wonder if anyone knows how to configure the system, so that cicsRemote does not start as service ?

Change the two relevant lines in

C:\Program Files\cics Memory Player\cicsMemoryPlayer.pth to read:

OSK " "
TOUCH_SCREEN " "

Save and reboot.

Dave

 

RE: How to kill "cicsRemote.exe", posted on June 12, 2011 at 05:51:09
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Hey Ryelands,

I´ve tried your suggestion but "cicsRemote.exe" still appears in the taskmanager....

any further ideas ?

L.
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: How to kill "cicsRemote.exe", posted on June 12, 2011 at 06:49:32
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 any further ideas ?

Try deleting the cicsremote.exe file (and the touchscreen one as well) from the cMP folder in "Program Files".

It's been a while since I did this and memories fade but I definitely have neither the remote or touchscreen utilities showing up in TM and, on checking, see that I deleted the two files as well as made changes to the .pth file as per instructions (found either somewhere here or on the web site).

HTH

Dave

 

Deleting it helped ! N/T, posted on June 13, 2011 at 11:03:23
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 ..
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

P24 current measurements on individual wires ( on GA G41M-ES2L mobo), posted on June 14, 2011 at 06:45:40
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

I had planned too do some current measurements, So here are the results from my GB G41M ES2L mobo.

Yesterday I cut a P24 extension cable in half, tinned the naked wire ends and screwed all the 24 wires back together with help off little screw-on terminal blocks. This way I can insert my multi meter in each wire individually and measure current in that specific P24 wire. Pff the whole operation toke almost 4 hours. Too put the multi meter on a next wire, the computer has too be shut down. Once the multi meter is moved too the next wire, than the computer can be started up again. Ect. So it toke 24 shut down/start ups.

Especially since the first round of measurements where puzzling to me. So I decided too do a second set of current measurements.
Which again needed 24 shut downs and startups. :-(
But the current measurements stayed the same and somewhat puzzling.
The current is not evenly distributed amongst the wires of one voltage group.
Hmmm I find this somewhat strange.
Or could it be that I created ‘artificial facts‘ due too a faulty measurement setup or faulty measurement proceeding?

Anyhow, since I twice did fry a Gigabite G31 MoBo I now use a Gibagyte G41M-ESL2L
My last P24 measurements originate from the G31M mobo.
On that MoBo the 5 volt rails had the most current running.
But with this G41M MoBo the most current runs through the 3,3 V group!

So one just can not assume that every MoBo will have most current on the 5 volt group.
With this MoBo both the 3,3 V group and the 5 V group drawn much current.
So which voltage is ‘the power house’ in a cMP setup, depends on the MoBo used..

P24
pin
01 3,3V 0,23A
02 3,3V 0,19A
12 3,3V 0,18A
13 3,3V 0,17A
0,77A total

04 5 V 0,12A
06 5 V 0,12A
21 5 V 0,15A
22 5 V 0,11A
23 5 V 0,15A
0,65A total

10 12 V 0,02A
11 12 V 0,02A

The black GND wires have current almost equally distributed amongst them.

Information about PSU setup for this P24 current measurement session:
Linear PSU -> P4
Linear PSU -> pico PW-200-M -> SSD + USB bracket
Aerthwatts ATX -> extension cable -> P24
The measurements where done with a fully Optimized cMP setup according too cicsmemoryplayer website. So with LAN disabled in BIOS and Device manager. Additionally I also disable serial ATA channel 1 (in bios and device manager). And I also disable PCIe root ports in the device manager.


Although these current measurements give information on voltage and currents, thus making possible better decisions on which wires too group when clamping ferrites, I think all P24 wires need clamping because EMI noise is likely too travel around on all P24 wires.

Mark

 

RE: P24 current measurements on individual wires ( on GA G41M-ES2L mobo), posted on June 14, 2011 at 07:47:29
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Well I am surprised that there is such a big difference between the 41 and 31 mobo's. I guess if you move many of your ferrites onto the 3.3v lines and get better sonics that would somewhat corroborate. I saw you initial measurement on the 31 mobo (which I have) but I did not see that current measurement distributed per each pin. Do you have that? I put one more ferrite on (current count now 7) and am not sure I can fit any more so unless I re-distribute I'm done.

 

I didn't measure per wire with the G31M. sorry, posted on June 14, 2011 at 09:04:59
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

Back than for the G31 mobo I did it like this. With wires combined per voltage group.

Van P24 current measurements


Now for the G41M MoBo I did it like this:

Van P24 current measurements


So only for this G41M MoBo I have the currents per individual wire.

As I don’t dismiss Bibo01 remarks about ferrite that may loss their effective after a few weeks, how are you sonics after a few day’s now ? Do you think the ferrites in your setup are still effective?
I did a lot of surching and reading on the net, too find out if the effect of ferrites will wear out after some time. But the only thing I came across is, that it is important too prevent saturation as much as possible when (too much) ‘one way’ DC is applied on them. I also came across that ferrites are widely used on PCB boards in all kind of digital electronics too suppress HF noise. The web is literally littered with articles on this subsect. But I didn’t come across one article where there was a warning about wear out of ferrites in applications after a period of time. So lets cross our fingers.

Coming week I will start moving around the ferrite clamps. Since ferrites are very cheap is fun too mess around with them and I again ordered some 8 ferrite clamps with a hole diameter of 12 mm. And also bunch of round little ferrite bars with a diameter of 8 mm. I want to experiment with 3 or 4 winds around these little ferrite bars and than clamp this little coil into the ferrite clamp with 1,2 diameter.
Right now the individual P24 wires still have a lot space/air around them while being inside the ferrite clamp. There should be ferrite all around them. Not air all around them. So may be wrapping them around these little ferrite bars and than clamping the whole inside a ferrite might give better results. This way their will be hardly any air left inside the ferrite clamp and also the wire will be in very close contact with ferrite inside the ferrite clamp. But this I just me messing around with ferrite’s, I don’t dare to predict if it will be more effective. But I let you know in a few days.

Mark

 

RE: I didn't measure per wire with the G31M. sorry, posted on June 14, 2011 at 10:23:15
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I have not lost the sq improvement...its still there. In fact I notice my system appears to be less sensitive to daily variations in noise on the powerline (unless its been very good last couple of days which is unlikely in my ac feed). So I will continue to monitor also.

Thank you for your response.

 

RE: Deleting it helped ! N/T, posted on June 15, 2011 at 06:55:28
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 did it make a sonic difference?

 

Another Goldberg's variation on linear PSU theme ( with Belleson regulators), posted on June 19, 2011 at 16:12:21
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 Hi all
when I've checked the very low current of my new sandy bridge setup, I've got to think about a linear PSU based on Belleson superpower regulators.
My idea was to build a very simple scheme but with excellent components, one PSU for each services the transport needs, in a picopsu based system.
Picopsu was my choice for a lot of reasons, formerly for ripple non existent, for his management of pwr.on and of 3,3 V current.
So I've identified these services, each of them needs a single PSU:
1) picopsu current estimate 1,2 A
2) CPU (P4) current estimate 300 mA
3) Xonar 12 V current estimate 300 mA
4) Xonar 5 V current estimate 900 mA
5) general service 12 V ( high current up to 6 A)
6) general service 5 V ( high current up to 3 A)
As you can see first four PSU are "noble", last two the dirty ones.
Here we are the schemes:
high current ( 5 and 6)



the "noble" ones




the six PSU will be feeded by three trafo.
a) 230-15 V 80 VA two secondaries: one for pico, one for the others three "noble"
b) 230-15 V 50 VA two secondaries (in parallel) for services 12V
c) 230-9-0-9 V 150 VA for services 5V

The "nobles" were build using these components:
- Mundorf M-Lytic 4700 mF
- VISHAY-RODERSTEIN MKP-1837 Metalized Polypropylene Film Capacitor 0,1 mF
- Belleson Superpower high current
- ELNA Cerafine 100 mF
- Schottky diodes ultrafast
the dirty ones were build with regular components

My Zalman 501 case was so large to host all components of CPU with no problems, but the four "nobles" were assembled using an old ATX PSU case ( see pictures) just a bit difficult but neater.
I've decided for using a fan ( yes a fan!) in the ATX case because temperature of heatskin rise up 75-80 °C so to avoid large, heavy and too hot heatskin in the case, I've decided for this heretic approach.
Cabling was a little difficult, my choice of a so great number of single PSU means a great number of cables in the case.
I've Grounded each PSU from the negative pole of levelling capacitors, all convergent to the original screw of ATX case.

























Results are astounding, I've never listen my system with a so beautiful sound , this is an hard work that worths every efforts.
Thanks to Theob for learn to me the existence of Belleson, they are really fantastic regulators. Just a bit expansive too......
And thx to all the guys that have give me a lot of ideas with theirs posts
Now I'm very happy
Daniele

 

RE: Another Goldberg's variation on linear PSU theme ( with Belleson regulators), posted on June 19, 2011 at 16:22:07
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I don't think it was me but thanks for thinking that. But, but this is fantastic work! I really admire you for your intellect, industry and results. Way to go. Wish I could hear this set up.

 

RE: Another Goldberg's variation on linear PSU theme ( with Belleson regulators), posted on June 19, 2011 at 22:11:21
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 I apologize for this but my memory is going away!
Greg in mississippi (GStew)was the first that speaks about Belleson, I'm sorry.
Anyway my acknowledgements are for all forumers. This is a true community where knowledge is really available for everyone.
I'm proud to stay here
Daniele

 

Still rocking. And even better with caps in place ! (see picture) , posted on June 23, 2011 at 13:47:04
hfavandepas
 You wrote in this post:

http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/9/90804.html
Posted by theob
RE: Still rocking. And even better with caps in place !
------------------------------
If others don't try it does not bother me....its their loss. Wow 15
ferrites. I only have 7 I think. I'll have to try more.
------------------------------

Hi Theo,

Here’s a picture of the ‘charcoal pile’ of ferrites in my cMP setup.
Don’t know if you can count them all (click on picture too enlarge)
but there 15 ferrites.
I devided the wires into 3 groups. 3.3V + 5V + rest,

Van on filtering, demping, ect


- First on the P24 extension cable you see 2 (or 3) tight fitting ferrites in the beginning on the 3.3V + 5V + rest (the rest has 3 on)

- More over too the middle of the P24 extension cable.
I tried too split the wires into more parallel wires trying this too reduce current through each ferrite
This is the second group of ferrites I bought.
Those square ferrites have bigger hole diameter of 12 mm
In these ferrites I put a little bar of ferrite diameter 8 mm
(same little ferrite bars you can see more too the left of the picture)
With the wires wrapped around this little ferrite bar, this little coil tightly fits into the clamp
This way pushing the wires tightly onto the outside of the ferrite clamp.
3 to 4 centimeter wire length is tightly push against the ferrite clamp.

- Finaly at the end of the P24 I managed to sqeeuze in some of the same clamps as in the front.

This makes a total of 15.

As I bought enought ferrites, I’m also experimenting with clamps on the power wires comming from the Pico 200 that feeds the SSD and the USB bracket.

On the P4 are 2 ferrite clamps with hole diameter of 12mm with again 2 little ferrite bars inside it where the wire is wrapped arround a few times too press it fermly against the ferrite on the inside of the clamp.

I also added some smoothing caps + little by-pass caps.
I think those caps should be best added on both sides of the ferrite bunk.
But this still has too come, because I ran out of little oscon caps.
I expect them too arrive soon together with flat ferrites for ribbon cables.


I hope too get rit of 'the charcoal pile' of ferrites with these flat ferrites for ribbon cables.
Lintkabel met ferrrietkern RFP1-26-28-A5 (Conrad Electronic)
I want too stack them in a pile and than weave the extension cable from one into the other.
So the flat P24 extension cable will make an S=shaped route trough this stack of ferrites for ribbon.
It will look much better and I think it is also much easier too apply.

When they arrive I will post a picture of the stack with the P24 extension cable running through that pile of ferrite for ribbon cable.

Mark

 

Any Juli@ / Buffalo users considering an ExaU21 as a Juli@ replacement., posted on June 24, 2011 at 12:39:48
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 This is a device that takes usb input and outputs I2S for up to 4(maybe more) channels. Several folks on the Exa website (see below) that had Juli@ I2S out to a Buf32s or dac that takes I2S say that the sonics are way superior. There is lots of stuff about this product on DIYAudio and the ExaU21 web site. Yes it is a bit pricey but it provides galvanic isolation between pc and dac and allows one to use a digital x-over (within a vst on cplay) which Juli@ does not on its digital output.
If anybody here has done it I would like to hear some feedback. In my setup currently I kludge I2S out from Juli@ use a beefed up power supply to power Juli@ and this results in a messy hardware arrangement. The ExaU21 could be mounted on the Buf32s board and take input from the pc usb output. Very neat potentially for me. Yes it is expensive... $430Canadian.

Gstew I would think you may be interested in this.

 

Mark I just realized you run 100 mhz speed....wow!, posted on June 24, 2011 at 18:50:34
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I can't get below 145 stably. How do you do it? I know you mentioned that you thought that running ssd os and a NAS allowed you to get there. I was running 143 and I kept going wobbly on stability and I've got the same Kingston ssd as you. What do you run V core at? I run .875 volts but it reads .83 on cpu-z. Maybe you could just list all your settings cause I'm curious why I cant get below 145. Yes I have 120 volt ac and it usually runs 117 or so in the summer. I set my dirty psu at 11.95 volts and that powers my cpu and all my disks. My other clean psu (yes a switcher) is also set at 11.95 volts and runs only my p24 input.



 

RE: Initial results/ impressions after one day, with a lot of questions still too be answered), posted on June 25, 2011 at 04:40:43
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Mark,

I looked into buying some of these and there is a range of impedance and frequencies.

Did your ferrites vary, or were they all the same. And if so what were the impedance and frequencies?

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

Really don't know. May be it's caused by the Audyn bipol elco caps for speaker crossovers. I have no clue., posted on June 25, 2011 at 05:57:33
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

I made a lot of changes too my setup and gear before I noticed I could go that low.
Here’s a report on what I changed over some period of time before I discovered it.
Too make a long story (below) short, I think it is because the Audyn caps (bipolar elko glatt) I put on the 3.3 and 5 volt headers of the ESI Juli@ digital part.
But hereafter a complete report on things that I all changed before I noticed I could go this low.

* caps on Juli@ digital part
I had nothing else lying around when I wanted too try some caps on these power pins. The only thing I had lying around than was:
- 1 polymer cap (the red one) 1uF
- 1 Oscon 47 uF
- 1 bipolar Audyn cap 47 uF (intended for use in speaker crossovers)
- 1 bipolar Audyn cap 100 uF (intended for use in speaker crossovers)

I bundled the 1 uF + 47 uF Oscon + 47 uF Audyn and put that on the 3.3 V
And the 100 uF Audyn on 5 Volt. See picture.
Van on filtering, demping, ect


Looks very messy because I taped the sides of the Audyn caps and the Audyn connection wires, as I was afraid for a short circuit somehow when dropping them in place. I noticed I nice little pop in sound quality. And that’s it and just left the caps there.

* new HTPC casing
Only a few months ago I switched over from the Zahlman case too a SilverStone SST-ML03B case. Launched in feb 2011. Perfect timing from Silverstone as we where about too switch over too an new AV cabinet. This new AV cabinet would no longer rest on the floor, but would be hanging from the walls. That new AV cabinet is mounted against the wall just beneath the flat screen TV, which is also mounted against the wall.
However these free hanging AV cabinets are not so spacious and also much less deep than the an AV cabinet that rests on the floor. So I had to look for a much less bulky HTPC case. I found the SilverStone SST-ML03B too be ideal for this. It has enough space inside and also in exactly all the right places where you need that space. It has standard audio gear size. And best of all it only 69,- euro !! It’s a steel. Don’t know why it took the PC casing industry so long to come up with this format.

This time I not only put bituminous felt pads on the outside bottom and inside lit of the HTPC case. But I also but a slap of bituminous felt pad inside the casing underneath the mobo. So this case is, also like I had the Zahlman case, heavily dampened with bituminous felt pads.


* shielding all 230 AC cables (complete re-wiring)
I also think it has nothing too do with a complete re-wiring of all (!) 230 AC wiring. When I moved all gear into this new wall mounted AV cabinet, all wires involved where very close to each other. It was a messy, bulky spaghetti of wires running criss cross everywhere inside and on the back of the cabinet.
Nice cable dressing was particularly very hard too achieve in the small 20 mm space between the back of the cabinet and the wall. All wires strictly have too reside in the narrow space behind the cabinet and the wall, because it is a really ugly and messy sight too see them hanging down the wall from behind the AV cabinet. So because of the limited possibilities for good cable dressing, I decided too make a bold move and too replace all regular 230 wires with shielded 230 AC cable for every apparatus that is in need of 230 AC.
(Flat screen TV, HD TV decoder, linear PSU’s, Klein & Hummel, Lavry DAC s, ATX PSU, ect)
It took al lot time too finish this operation. Luckily al most all components had such ‘strain relief through puts’ (see picture).
Van on filtering, demping, ect


So is was not all too difficult too remove the regular 230 AC wires from the inside, and too re-use the ‘strain relief through put connector’. As the shielded 230 AC cables has a bigger diameter, the shield has too end here at the outside of the casing. However the wires inside the shielded cable can pass trough, which allow for the original ‘strain relief through put’ too be re-used.

* strict separation of dirty and clean real earths
All shields on the new 230 AC shielded cables are grounded at the plug-side too a real earth. Also this shielding is strictly divided in two groups of apparatus: a ‘dirty real earth’ for dirty components and a ‘clean real earth’.

The whole operation took almost a month before I had complete finished the transition too this new wall mounted AV cabinet (process time off course was much shorter).

I also looked at the LAN connections of the cMP setup and the powering of the 3COM switch I use. In this article ‘The trouble with wallwarts’ http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/Trouble_with_wallwarts.pdf , I red that even this can be important. So the wallwart (in the meter board down the hall) also got an extra ferrite on the DC output too the 3COM switch. However I didn’t notice a sound quality change.


It’s only after all these changes that I noticed that I could go so low all of a sudden. My guess is, that it’s the caps on the juli@.

However in short time I expect too know. With the ferrites for flat ribbon cables, I also ordered some new oscon caps. Next week (or so) I want to remove the Audyn speaker crossover caps and put these oscon caps on the Juli@ digital part. Then I will know if these Audyn speaker crossover caps caused it.

I don’t think my under volting settings will matter much. I pay no special attention too it.
I have the CPU undervolted at 1 volt V core. Just preventing the CPU too get hot. Sometimes I run it at 0,95 V. But this makes little difference in power consumption (current) or produced heat. I don’t hear any SQ differences.
All DC power from both linears too both pico’s is at 12 volt DC. Same for 12 V DC from Antec ATX.

Mark

 

RE: Really don't know. May be it's caused by the Audyn bipol elco caps for speaker crossovers. I have no clue., posted on June 25, 2011 at 06:24:04
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Thanks Mark. I have external power to at least the Juli@ 3.3 volt supply. I also have more caps on the 5 volt supply but I use .875 volts V core. Maybe I'll try 1 volt and see how low I can go for core speed.

 

Ow, I forgot. I use a G41M-ES2L., posted on June 25, 2011 at 06:28:31
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

I forgot. I use a G41M-ES2L.
May be it's the mobo.
But I don't think that's the reason
Also with this mobo type I never could go lover than 135

 

I ordered these 3 types. see text, posted on June 25, 2011 at 07:29:01
hfavandepas
 Hi Dawnrazor,

I first ordered some of these 3 types + some little ferrite bars.

I chose the ferrites on highest resistance possible but at the same time looking at hole diameter.

250 and 240 ohms at 100mhz
Types: RKCF0-10-A5 and RCKF-13-A5
See: http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/500000-524999/502137-da-01-en-GETEILTER_FERRITRINGKERN_RKCF_13_A5.pdf

After I red http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/ferrite.pdf : “Using ferrites for interference suppression”. See link below.
I bought much more ferrits. Because chapter 5 (page 4) reads:
Chapter 5. Choosing and using.
Size and shape
There are two rules of thumb in selecting a ferrite for highest impedance:
• where you have a choice of shape, longer is better than fatter;
• get the maximum amount of material into your chosen volume that you can afford.


So I placed a second order. Now only the RKCF-13-A5 and some of these ferrite bars
Ferrietstaaf (Conrad Electronic)

And also just a few minutes ago as a third order UPC also dropped these flat ones at the doorstep:
Lintkabel met ferrrietkern RFP1-26-28-A5 (Conrad Electronic)

I ordered flat split core ferrites for ribbon cable because I red about the use of them on page 7 chapter 6 ‘secondary effects’ it says:
If the ferrite is placed next to a grounded metal surface, such as the chassis, an L-C filter is formed which uses the ferrite both as an inductor and as a distributed capacitor. This will improve the filtering properties compared to using the ferrite in free space. For best effect the cable should be against the ferrite inner surface and the ferrite itself should be flat against the chassis so that no air gaps exist; this can work well with ribbon or flexi cable assemblies.

This look very interesting because my silverstone SST-ML03B case is made of iron (not aluminum) and the individual wires of the P24 can be spread out too make a flat ribbon style cable. :-)

I possibly try too test these flat ones this weekend already.
See what it will bring.

Mark

 

RE: Really don't know. May be it's caused by the Audyn bipol elco caps for speaker crossovers. I have no clue., posted on June 25, 2011 at 07:59:46
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I've got the G31 mobo but I doubt its that. Right now I am trying .95 volts and 140 core speed. I'll run this for afew days then try 135.

 

ExaU21 as a Juli@ replacement., posted on June 26, 2011 at 04:37:58
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Hey theob,

Indeed a very interesting piece of gear you´ve found.
If the device really operates asynchronous ( in my understanding using USB directly on the BUS level) it could be an alternative to certain I2S setups requiring/accepting 384kHz samplingrate.
-on the other hand, every PCI or PCIe device grab´s signal processing on BUS level.

I´m not sure about the digital crossover ability you´re mentioning.
Of course you can split the frequency bands and route them to two different DACs, but then you need to clock-sync these.
With two regular DACs and a clocking device it´s gonna be an expensive solution, yet compromised one.
-and a multi-channel D/A converter interface will most unlikely accept I2S.

In my view there is no quality alternative to digital crossovers with cMP than the route I´ve followed for some time.

I´ll repost my tread on this.


kind regards





Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

It's not the caps in the Juli@ + First impressions on: Ferrites & decoupling caps, posted on June 26, 2011 at 04:42:03
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

* caps on the Juli@ digital part
Today I removed the bulky Audyn elco bipolar speaker crossover caps and replaced them with two Oscon 330 uF caps that arrived yesterday (along with the flat ferrites for ribbon cables).

I still can warm boot into 100 and cold boot into 110 – 115 (I don’t know why this isn’t always the same value). So the Audyn caps on the digital part play no role in it.

These Oscon caps again brought a clear noticeable improvement in SQ. Hearing what SQ improvement is achieved only trough changing caps, I think i’m going too closely study how I can power the digital part by battery like you do. I expect some significant SQ improvement.

* About the ferrites on the P24: use them with decoupling caps.
I feel I have a clear picture now on how ferrites on the P24 best can be used. It is just as one can read in several articles: ferrites are best used together with decoupling caps.
So I placed caps on the 3.3 , 5 and 12 volt lines (between the Antec PSU and the ferrites).
This results in a very significant SQ improvement!
Without the caps in place, ferrites on the P24 give a nice little subtle improvement.
But with the caps added it’s a bigger improvement than adding a SSD. So not small!

What is even more astonishing, I do these experiments with the Antec ATX. Because the Pico can’t handle big caps (4700 uF + 47uF + 0,47 uF) on the P24 because pico’s can’t deliver the big rush in currents too the 4700 cap when switched on.

* After 4 weeks of tweaking with ferrites the preliminary conclusion is:
With a lot of ferrites + decoupling caps on the Antec ATX the SQ is very good.
I don’t feel any need too swap the Pico back in place.
The Antex + (a lot of) ferrites + decoupling caps sounds very good too me.

Mark

 

The DEQX alternative : cMP with X-overs and FIR, posted on June 26, 2011 at 04:58:46
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Dear Forum,

It´s been a long joyful (also frustrating at times) ride between the Planar -, Digital - and cMP Forums to finally announce the result of Dawnrazor´s recommendation of the cicsmemoryplayer including digital crossovers and FIR filtering (Room Correction).

Thank you all for your help and support !

So here is the poor mans DIY DEQX alternative :

In the center of the setup is the cMP2 system (cicsmemoryplayer.com) which is a State-of-the-Art Computer featuring advanced upsampling and RAM memory playback. Since the implementation of the VST plug-in into cPlay it also allows integrating FIR filters that can correct frequency response, phase behavior and time alignment between drivers in a way that no electronic or passive crossover can ever do !
The important stage in working with FIR filters is to allow sufficient control of the parameters with which these filters are calculated. The pioneering TacT and Lyngdorf equipment are nowadays flawed with too little processing power, too fixated proprietary software & hardware and the general lack of programmable flexibility. 
The revolutionary DEQX DHP-3 does certainly take FIR filtering a significant step up the quality ladder and is indeed a highly recommendable piece of gear, but does come with a equally significant price tag.

Previously I´ve used Allocator as a more traditional crossover software (IIR filtering), but about 3 month ago the german "Acourate" FIR filter software was released with the new ability to operate within an active (bi- tri- & quad-amping) setup.
The only software that previous could do that, is the norwegian "Audiolense", but personally I regard the Acourate as the superior one, as the crossover filter characteristic can be determined upfront, and Acourate´s fine tuning of the so called "excess phase" can get the feared pre-ringing out of the calculation.
This is a very important feature within this technology.

To setup FIR filters one will need following :

A PC computer of newish specifications with Windows OS
+ soundcard with 6 channel analog output (for a 3 way system). RME FireFace 400, Lynx Two-B, Lynx Aurora, Apogee Roestta 800 or any equally 2-in/6-out interface 
+ measurement microphone (calibrated is best) 
+Acourate software (about $500 U.S.) 
+convolver software (free)

Connect the interface to the amplifiers & respective drivers, and to the microphone (positioned at your listening chair). 
Select samplerate and the desired crossover filter parameters. Linkwitz-Reilly 8th order for example. 
When running the Logsweep Recorder of Acourate the program generates a series of advanced pulse and frequency sweeps on each driver, and records the results. 
These sweeps contain 130.000 samples (!) of information from each driver and the reflections in your room. 
The generated Pulse files are now run through a series of parameters that ensure you´re not stressing the loudspeaker more than necessary and that you get the desired behavior from the system. 
Once that´s done you can finally calculate a "reverse" or "mirrored" filter that can be read in the playback software (cPlay & convolver) and allocate the outputs to the D/A converters and pass them on to the amplifiers.

Since Acourate can calculate different scenarios and has a very flexible approach, you´re never stuck to only one result. Just run a new calculation with a different set of parameters and listen to the result. 





Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: It's not the caps in the Juli@ + First impressions on: Ferrites & decoupling caps, posted on June 26, 2011 at 05:34:37
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Excellent follow up, reporting and feedback as always Mark. I'm still good at 140 core speed and .95 v core. I like the sound better than .875 v core and 145 speed...a lot. After a day or so I'll lower speed but feel no need to right now.

 

RE: ExaU21 as a Juli@ replacement., posted on June 26, 2011 at 05:37:31
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I greatly appreciate what you have accomplished...my only problem is I'd have to buy a new soundcard with 6 outs to do it. I'd sure like to know more about your setup though.

 

RE: The DEQX alternative : cMP with X-overs and FIR, posted on June 26, 2011 at 05:40:50
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I love your equipment stand...books et al. :)

You bring up a good point about clock differences in an Exa set up in your other post.

 

RE: The DEQX alternative : cMP with X-overs and FIR, posted on June 26, 2011 at 05:50:54
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Yeah, the "book-shelf" was a quick impromptu as the Aurora arrived....previous I used an internal Lynx card.
External DAC is so much superior though !

kind regards

Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: ExaU21 as a Juli@ replacement., posted on June 26, 2011 at 06:04:57
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Dear theob,

for anyone that plays around doing something similar, the best entry level is a RME FireFace 400.
-it has FireWire connection; it´s external; it has a decent quality; it can be powered from an external power supply and can be found 2nd hand....

In the recommended Gigabyte boards, FireWire can be slotted straight into the motherboard, as these have the "must-have" Texas Instruments EEE1394 chipset.

If you´re considering an internal soundcard to begin with, make sure it doesn´t conflict with cMP optimized BIOS and PSU requirements....

kind regards


kind regards
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: ExaU21 as a Juli@ replacement., posted on June 26, 2011 at 08:17:32
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I really wanted to get away from another soundcard but you given me something to think about.

 

RE: ExaU21 as a Juli@ replacement., posted on June 26, 2011 at 08:33:13
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Hey theob,

hehe...that was un-intentional ;-)

When cics launched the cMP project, there were hardly any FireWire DAC options and no asynchronous USB devices either, but once cPlay is connected directly with a FireFace or an Aurora via ASIO, you´re circumventing a lot of what cMP is about : Jitter !
With FireWire and the appropriate driver the entire clock-stability becomes business of the external device.

kind regards
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: It's not the caps in the Juli@ + First impressions on: Ferrites & decoupling caps, posted on June 26, 2011 at 08:35:03
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I added another by pass polystyrene cap across the 5 volt section of Juli@. Yes it added to the sq improvement provided by the ferrites. Thanks Mark!

 

RE: ExaU21 as a Juli@ replacement., posted on June 26, 2011 at 08:37:18
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Thanks Play-mate

 

What a coincidence: I did exactly the same this afternoon. With same results., posted on June 26, 2011 at 11:00:27
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

Whow, same thoughts were coming up on the other side of ‘the pound’.
This afternoon I did exactly the same.
And…. with exactly the same results.

I still had some glare. This bothered and irritated me. I thought: may be some extra HF frequency filtering is needed. So I place two extra caps (Oscon 47 uF + 1uF polymer) on the 3.3 V of the Juli@ digital part. See Picture. And … with exactly the same results !
Van on filtering, demping, ect


I like this.
To me it shows these improvements are not random.
If we both independently achieve the same results.

I also did some further experiments with the flat ferrites for ribbon cables.
See picture.
Van on filtering, demping, ect


A ‘pile of charcoal’ works. But also these flat ferrites for ribbon cable work.
However crucial in both situations is: adding decoupling caps too the 3.3, 5 and 12 volt lines before the ferrites (this way a 2nd order HF filter is created (I think))

The effect of ferrites is 4 times bigger, when ferrites are combined with caps.
If one does that, than ferrites really bring a major SQ improvement

More to come.

 

RE: What a coincidence: I did exactly the same this afternoon. With same results., posted on June 26, 2011 at 15:47:25
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I got glare or what I call excess highs so I took the cap out. All this stuff(i.e., tweaking etc) IMO is simply finding a combo that sounds real then stop and listen to music. Then after a few days when you get bored with your sound try something else. Isn't this exactly what a diy audiophile does? Its definitely what I do.

 

RE: What a coincidence: I did exactly the same this afternoon. With same results., posted on June 26, 2011 at 16:12:11
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I know that sounds a bit anti science. Let me restate my tweaking philosophy. I believe in the theory of constraints. I learned some of this while working in manufacturing for a while but I think it applies to audio as well. As an example (applied to pc audio tweaking) when one adds a cap to the 5 volt supply on Juli@ like I did) and while it should sound better it doesn't, that means something else is constraining or limiting the output (in this case the output is excellent sound). Anyway when I reach a constraint like this I look elsewhere for what may be holding back a breakthrough to better output. Is my foundation for Juli@ ps as good as it can be in terms of acoustic isolation, is my Buf32s in need of tweaking, etc etc I think you get the idea. But in the end its all about getting good music. Oh by the way while accompanying my wife to Bed Bath and Beyond (a US store for stuff for bedroom, bath, kitchen) I picked up a half inch butcher block which I used to replace my quarter inch plywood base on which I place roller bearings for my Juli@ LiFePo4 battery based ps. And so it goes.

 

Some food for thought about LAN connections through this nice little experiment with your android phone, posted on June 27, 2011 at 09:30:44
hfavandepas
 Hi All,

As you may know from previous posts, I am not so dramatic at all about using a LAN connection on a dedicated PC for audiophile music reproduction. Why should transportation of the same amounts of bits through LAN, use so much more PC resources or be much less efficient or whatever more bad in some way. Mind you, i’m willing too accept that transporting bits through a LAN connection is somehow less efficient than through other means of transportation like: IDE, SATA, E-SATA, USB, Firewire, ect. But I would like too read a clear in dept explanation on why this is. Because it is the wide spread communis opinio amongst audiophiles, that isn’t worth anything too me. On the contrary.

So now that I just made a lot of 'friends' amongst audiophiles, I would like too suggest an experiment too cMP users.

What do yo need:
* your need a cMP setup as well as an Android phone with touch-screen that both have access too your home LAN-network.
* preferably a cMP setup on a partition which you can freely experiment with.
I have 3 partitions of 2,4 Gb each on my 8Gb kingstone SSD.
One partition is exactly fine tuned as per Cics recommendations. This is my ‘reference’ cMP setup.
Both other 2 partitions also contain a cMP setups. On one of these cMP partitions I have LAN enabled through running one extra service: ‘workstation’. If you are not familiar with assigning an IP-address manually, you might also want too enable the ‘DHCP service’
* an andriod smartphone with the app ‘RemoteDroid’ installed (free version is okay)
* a home LAN-network with WiFi access.
If your cMP and android both don’t have access too your home LAN-network, the Remotedroid-server app on your cMP setup and the remotedriod app on your smartphone will not be able too communicate with each other trough LAN.

Once botch your cMP as wel as your smart phone have LAN access you can do the following experiment.

Proceedings:
* download the ‘RemoteDriod’ server application from http://remotedroid.net/
* download Java.
* download DCP latency checker (you should have that app already if you have setup a cMP)
* enable ‘windows installer’ service
* install java
* stop ‘windows installer’ service
* start Remotedroid server by clicking on the Remoteserver.jar-file
The RemoteDriod-server will now show you the IP-address of the LAN connection of your cMP setup.
* install the ‘Remotedroid’-app on your android phone
* start the Remotedroid’-app on your android phone
* The Remotedroid’-app will ask you for an IP-address. This IP-address is displayed by the server app on your cMP-setup
* when the Remotedroid’-app on your android phone is working, the touch screen display on your smart phone will display an mouse pad that looks the same as you know this from your laptop.

NOW ONTO THE EXPERIMENT.
Move your USB-mouse around and look what latency values are displayed by DCP latency checker.
Now move the cursor around through use of your smart phone and look what values are displayed DCP latency checker.

It turns out that instructions given through USB cause much more latency than when same instructions are given through LAN.

Food for thought:
This makes me think about the efficiency of USB versus LAN. Too me it shows LAN is not so bad at all as a means of transporting bits onto your PC.
I also perfectly understand why inmate Ryelands can have superb sound quality through use of a headless PC.

Do try if you have a android phone.
It’s a very simple experiment.

Mark

 

If you like tweaking: I have 3 new ones for you too try if you like., posted on June 28, 2011 at 14:57:27
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo

It doesn’t sound ‘anti science’ too me at all. Sometimes also preconditions first must be met too make something work or too make the effect noticeable.

If you like searching for ways too better sound quality than I have some new not so controversial but also some controversial tweaks too try out if you like.

From reports in the past, I know you have a revealing system that lets you hear minute little changes in sound. Like playing a music file from an USB drive or reducing USB polling frequency. All these are very little improvements in sound quality but your system is able too let them hear too you.

I have 3 new to try.

* First tweak: caps in front and after the ferrites.
This one is not controversial at all. It can be red in almost al articles on using ferrites for suppressing conducted EMI. It is about the using caps together with ferrites
Do some googling on ferrites and capacitor and you will find articles about ferrite based filter networks from Texas Instruments, analog devices, altera, ect.

In there articles can be red that there should be a capacitor in front and a cap after the ferrites.
In front of the ferrites the cap functions as a bypass capacitor to provide a very low-impedance path too ground and thus allow HF noise to pass through to ground. The second function can be to help compensate for voltage droop when the mobo demands large currents peaks.
Also a smal(ler) capacitor is needed after the ferrites too suppress possible resonance.

I don’t have enough knowledge too exactly calculate the values of the the caps needed in front and after the ferrites. So I just tried some caps I had at hand.
I do know that the caps used must have good HF qualities. So I used a standard triplet of caps which I also use on the P4 as smoothing caps. The tripplet is a combination of a Panasonic FC 4700 uF + Oscon 47 uF+ 0,47 uF. I hope the large Panasonic will provide a nice current reservoir and I hope the 37 uF Oscon + 0.47 uF polymer combo will provide good HF shunting.

I placed one such triplets on a 3.3 volt line and an other triplets on a 5 volt line of the P24 (before the ferrites) Too my ears it greatly enhanced the effect of the ferrites (doubled / tripled it).
With these 2 capacitor triplets in place on the 3.3 and 5 volt line in front of the ferrites, I also placed such a triplet after the ferrites. This also brought a noticeable change in sound. But I don’t know if I like what I hear.

So today I ordered some new smal 47 uF Oscons to put behind the ferrites. In litterature I read the caps after the ferrites can be 100 to 200 times smaller than the caps before. See if some smaller Oscons after the ferrites will do the trick.

So if you like tweaking, try and listen how caps enhance the effect of ferrits in your setup.

* 2nd tweak.
This is a controversial one. While just playing with my android phone too move the cursor around through LAN with use of the RemoteDroid server program, I noticed that moving around the cursor added less (EXTRA !) latency than moving the cursor around trough use of the USB mouse. Note: the java server app also ads a bunch of latency. But moving the cursor only ads little extra latency on top of this. Somewhat baffled by this I searched for my old PS2 mouse.
I enabled the PS2 mouse settings in hardware restarted and noticed that moving the cursor around through use of the old fashion PS2 mouse added hardly any extra latency!
-> Now here comes the tweak.
From Reylands I learned that reducing the USB polling frequency removed some glare and ‘relaxed’ the overall sound quality. Reducing USB polling also brought slightly more micro details.

Since moving the cursor around trough use of the USB mouse causes highest (EXTRA) latency off all methods, I thought: why not completely remove the USB mouse? No USB mouse means: no USB polling frequency at all, since all USB ports can be completely disabled in bios and software. No extra separate power needed too power the USB bracket. No matter how clean this extra power too the USB bracket might be, the cleanest power is using no power at all. There is also no possibility that HF noise from the dirty Pico will somehow travel through the USB bracket onto the MoBo via the USB socket.
So I decided too disable all USB root ports in the hardware manager and enabled ‘PS2 mouse’ in the hardware manager. I unplugged the USB mouse connection from the MoBo socket and dirty Pico and disabled all USB in the BIOS.

From memory I can remember that in a standard cMP setup the PS2 mouse sounded a little less.
But now after 1,5 years of power supply improvements and with all USB activity disabled, using a good old fashion PS2 mouse sounds better too me. This can easily be heard.

I know, this almost sounds like blasphemy: telling a cMP user too disable all USB activity unplug it from the mobo socket and unplug it from the dirty PSU and instead reconnect the old fashion ‘dirty’ PS2 mouse and old fashion keyboard.
But never the less: would you like too try and let me know what the effect on SQ is in your cMP setup?

* 3thrd tweak
With the USB bracket removed from duty, the dirty Pico in my setup now only powers the little Kingstone 8 Gb SSD. Since the Pico is also a switcher it also throws HF noise around. May this HF noise can travel through the SSD via the sata–cable onto the MoBo.
So I decided too also place ferrites on the 12 and 5 volt lines that feed the SSD. Because the power lines of the molex connector too the SSD are short I only managed too place 2 ferrites on these lines. I ‘coiled’ the lines around a little paper pellet too make sure that the power wires are tightly pressed against the inside walls of the ferrite when closing the ferrite clamp.
May be ‘the placebo effect’ could fool me, but I think a notice a very slight SQ improvement. Same amount as reducing ‘USB polling frequency’ or playing from USB stick. So very small but noticable.

Let me know if you are going too try some of these tweaks.

Mark

 

RE: If you like tweaking: I have 3 new ones for you too try if you like., posted on June 28, 2011 at 16:33:30
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Hey Mark. I dont have any room on my p24 line for caps or more ferrites so I cant try that. But I do use an old ps/2 mouse and I have put ferrites around the ssd ps. So I already did 2 out of 3.

 

Some more follow-up on ferrites, posted on June 30, 2011 at 06:02:28
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Based on some dissatisfaction with I2S and the Jkeny's post in Diyaudio on spdif vs I2s I decided to switch back to spdif as an experiment. I preferred spdif immediately and am trying for my 3rd day just to see (hear) if I respond favorably over time. I have so far. Anyway I went out and got more ferrites and placed them over my spdif cable (I should try over I2S cables now that I think about it). Yes same impact. At 1st I was worried that I may be throwing out some bits with the noise but after browsing some of your references it seems as if ferrites take care of 50-500 mhz and I believe spdif (esp with 16/44 signa) is much lower than that. I don't know if it works on glass toslink but maybe you could try it. Ferrites ... the gift that keeps on giving.

 

Thank you for feedback. Are you sure you don't want too experiment with caps + ferrits? (last try), posted on June 30, 2011 at 09:13:12
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

I have no experience myself with I2S, but I can understand the attractiveness of the concept to separate the clock signal from the audio-bit stream. But that is from a conceptual point of view. From a practical, real world point of view I doubt if I’m able too execute it properly myself. Especially knowing how VERY DIFFICULT (!!) it even is for professionals too accurately send, transport, receive and process clock signals. I don’t think I can technically execute that properly myself in such a way that it will outperform a proper executed S/Pdif connection. But these are just my thoughts on this matter. I have no real world practical experience with it.
Also, even on the best studio DAC’s money can buy (Prism, Lavry, Weiss, etc) I don’t see an I2S input. If this where a better way of doing things, it would certainly be fitted by these and other companies.

So I concentrate on more simple things which I can execute properly myself given the limited set of tools I have (lack of knowledge, skills and proper equipment).

In frequency/impedance graphs provided by the ferrite manufacturers I see that ferrites have a bell shaped resistance curve that peaks somewhere between 100 – 300 mHz. The official S/Pif specs say that the frequency can be between 100kHz and 6Mhz. A CD player uses 3mHz.

But still I don’t put ferrites on un-shielded S/Pdif cables. Given the theory what an electrical digital signal is (square block pulses) I fear malformation of the block shapes (misshaped eye patterns)
Of course ferrites can reduce HF noise traveling on the shield of an S/Pdif cable, but that HF noise shouldn’t be there at the shield in first place. It would be my strategy too battle that (possible) noise at some other place.

Ferrites on a glass toslink ???? :-)

I know you said you didn’t feel for trying too ad some caps before (and some smaller behind) the ferrites because your P24 line was already fully occupied with ferrites.
On the risk of being ‘pushy’, I again will give the advice too try and place some caps.
Especially with use of an P24 extension cable it’s very easy too do.
You don’t even have too so solder !! Just use a set of needle-nose pliers too push the metal legs of the caps in place between the plastic outside of the P24 connector and the metal wire snap on inside the plastic connector. (click on pictures below too enlarge and too see how easy this can be done) No soldering needed ! I just check with my multi-meter too see if the metal legs make good contact. That’s all.


Van on filtering, demping, ect


Van on filtering, demping, ect


Tomorrow a variety of some 30 oscon caps will arrive. Caps have such a profound and positive effect on sound quality difference in my setup when placed before and after the ferrites, that I will start searching for the best combinations before and after the ferrites. And than eventually, when I found the right combination, I will solder the caps onto the P24 before and after the ferrites.

By the way: I now know why I can cold boot into 110 mHz busspeed. These days I experimented a lot with caps on and off the P24 before and after the ferrites and I discovered that it is the caps on the P24 mobo socket.
For quite some time already I used as much extra caps on the P24 as the Pico or Antec ATX would tolerate on the 3.3 and 5 volt line. The Pico doesn’t tolerate much. Only some 330 uF per voltage. But the Antec ATX tolerates very large values of 4700 uF per voltage. But I never did try how low I could go. I just put them there as extra current-reservoir and noise shunt. Although I didn’t hear any SO improvement at all (which I had expected because on the P4 extra caps will give some SQ improvement). But I just left the caps on the P24, because I also did not hear any sound quality degradation also.
Only when I started realizing that the lower the swithing-speeds of logic on the MoBo, the lower the HF noise production there will be on the MoBo, I tried how low I could go with busspeeds.
But I never realized that it was due too those caps on the P24, which I already have on the P24 for over 1,5 years now.

Mark

 

RE: Thank you for feedback. Are you sure you don't want too experiment with caps + ferrits? (last try), posted on June 30, 2011 at 09:39:07
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I guess you are saying ferrites on spdif cable are not recommended but what is the speed of a 16/44 propagating through spdif? If it is < 10mhz ( & I think it is < 10) I tried it anyway and it seems to work.

With respect to caps on p24 right now I have zero room but since you so politely encourage me to try I may get a p24 extension and try.

:)

 

RE: Thank you for feedback. Are you sure you don't want too experiment with caps + ferrits? (last try), posted on June 30, 2011 at 10:21:08
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

‘not recommended’ Well, I don’t dare too do any recommendations.
I’m no expert nor educated or work in digital audio electronics, I was more of thinking out loud.
But if it works, than it works.
I trust your equipment and ears.
I only wonder where that noise is coming from.
That is why I thought about fighting that noise at some other place.
Although I don’t have any clue where too look else.

For the S/Pdif specs I just googled and I found them quickly.
This was what google presented too me as first link.
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/audio/spdif.html

Mark

 

RE: Thank you for feedback. Are you sure you don't want too experiment with caps + ferrits? (last try), posted on June 30, 2011 at 11:24:57
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Based on your comments I took out the spdif ferrites and listened and I prefer them in by a wide margin. Interestingly I tried listening @ 192 sample rate and with ferrites it seems dull and missing info but not @ 44 sr.

Anyway these ferrites are something special in audio pc's. What I don't understand is the original thread from AA that you referenced in your original post on ferrites. Most posters there said it was not recommended to use ferrites period. I guess not knowing any better in these eletrical pc things I just have to try everything.

 

that thread was about use of ferrites on usb and/or spdif signals., posted on June 30, 2011 at 12:07:31
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

That thread was about putting them on digital lines that transport usb and/or spdif signals.

So I fully agree not putting them on these digital lines unless there is a very very dirty component on either side that might throw extra additional HF dirt into the data line.

But that thread made me aware of that i also see them sometimes power lines (my dell switching loader, some wallwarts, ect) I suddenly realized that may be ferrites might possibly also work on the power lines comming from the ATX.

Mark

 

RE: that thread was about use of ferrites on usb and/or spdif signals., posted on June 30, 2011 at 12:30:05
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Mark,

I think that is why power cords can make a big difference depending on how they handle emi.

Some manufactures agree i think and when I was fitting my dirty supply for ferrites I noticed that there was already a big one built into the psu. Here is a link to the review and on the sixth picture down you can see the ferite. There is as much sticking out as there is inside the case. Might be why I liked this psu.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

It’s an Enermax. RME used too recommend them., posted on June 30, 2011 at 13:07:29
hfavandepas
Hi Dawnrazor,

Thank you for this.
I already was interested for quite a while in ways too filter the output of a switching ATX PSU for my cMP setup. But using a classic filter concept containing a combination of chokes and caps is very hard too calculate. Big chance one will end up with a filter that rings/resonates.
Fortunately I red that the chance of ringing is much less when a combination of ferrites and caps is used. However there still is a chance of ringing/resonance, it is much less and much easier too control.
As ferrites are lossy components the needed calculations are also somewhat lossy. A rough approximation is enough. At least: this is what I roughly understand from articles on the net from TI, Alterra, Analog Devices, EMAC and others.

I see it is an Enermax PSU.
RME used too recommend Enermax PSU’s on there website until some years ago.
When RME changed their website these recommendations didn’t re-appear on their new website.
So I think its not a bad choice at all.

Mark

N.B. Also XP optimizations tips did not re-appear on the new RME website.
I still use one of RME’s XP registry tips too disable CD-rom ‘polling’/ autostart in registry.

 

RE: Another Goldberg's variation on linear PSU theme ( with Belleson regulators), posted on July 1, 2011 at 02:29:12
nagual19
Audiophile

Posts: 37
Location: Vienna
Joined: July 4, 2003



Daniele, I am also impressed by your work! In my experience with cMP and audio reproduction as a "whole", it sometimes really comes down to using the best parts (Mundorf AG+) and best design (Belleson).

I find it very interesting, that Mundorf has chosen a similar technology as ELNA Silmic for its newest AG+ electrolytic caps (Manila hemp dielectric paper) as stated here on page 3:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/mund_ag.pdf

This for damping the whole structure of the cap etc. In a sufficiently resolving system, minimizing vibration leads always to better sound IME, so try to use Herbies stuff, brass PCB standoffs etc.

I am using the Mundorf caps in my AD1852 DAC for rectifier smoothing and they sound remarkably better than Panasonic FC.

As for the belleson, after studying this thread over at diyaudio
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/185763-belleson-superpower-ultimate-voltage-regulator.html

Its developer, Mr. Lowe has some interesting comments about measuring Superpower's noise, transient response etc... It seems this is really the best monolithic regulator available :-)

Btw, do you find the Cerafine at the belleson output better than Silmic, if you have tried? If you have some, try Oscon or similar solid polymer caps.

To quote GStew, "everything matters" ;-)

Picture: this is my current setup. I use Felix AC filters for both the dirty and clean PSUs... I plan to use a high current belleson for powering the pico, at the moment I have the peaktech 6080.

 

RE: Another Goldberg's variation on linear PSU theme ( with Belleson regulators), posted on July 2, 2011 at 13:31:28
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 HI nagual19
I'm very happy for your comment about my "mad work".
Mine is an old audiophile story and the use of "good components" (on a good project, obviously) adds to music a little bit of magic that it's well worthwile.
After two weeks I can tell you the system is absolutely stable, no high temperature nor any problems at all and the sound quality.........is fantastic, better than using the Peaktech. Belleson are fantastic, they are expansive but transparency and dynamic are enhanced like never I've previous listened in my system.
About Cerafine , in my experience, they are less smooth and just a bit faster then Silmic, in a PSU building. I don't like too much OsCon, Elna ( Cerafine or Silmic) are superior, IMHO.
So I've build PSU with Cerafine and modded the ASUS Xonar Essence STX in a "all Silmic" fashion. I'm totally satisfied now, I'm listening for many hours every day without any fatigue but with a fantastic pleasure.
Thanks again to each guy that help me to reach this great result
Daniele

 

RE: Some food for thought about LAN connections through this nice little experiment with your android phone, posted on July 4, 2011 at 13:23:43
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 Very Interesting post, like every time are yours!
I'm thinking about NAS integration on cMP2 and your description seems to me easy and reliable. But I'm more interested to a wifi NAS.
I can't imagine how cMP shell can see a wifi NAS, I don't know really if someone use a wifi NAS, which kind of NAS is better and and if it's possible to use an USB pen receiver to connect cMP to home network.
I can't use an android phone, ( I'vnt one) but I could use another PC or, easier, to continue the regular way.
I'll appreciate much any help
Daniele

 

Sorry but I'm affraid I can't be of much help with how to use WiFi LAN through an USB dongle , posted on July 5, 2011 at 03:56:06
hfavandepas
 Hi Daniele,

I don’t use a NAS through WiFi LAN via an USB dongle
(I use a NAS which is connected through wired LAN with my cMP setup)
Since I don’t use WiFi LAN through USB myself, I can’t guide you through the details of setting setup such a WiFi LAN USB configuration in your cMP setup.

But viewed upon from a conceptual level, I don’t see why a cMP should not be able too use WiFi LAN through USB.

On sound quality: WiFi LAN trough USB might be less efficient and might use more overhead and PC resources than when connecting your cMP trough 'old fashion' wired LAN.
But as always: just try and carefully listen too what your ears are telling you.

Mark

 

Ferrite/cap filter on the P24: next best thing too a full linear cMP setup? (interim report), posted on July 7, 2011 at 02:09:29
hfavandepas
 Hi all,

Since going all linear on the P24 is beyond my construction capabilities, I kept searching for some other way too improve the power supply too the P24 beyond the hybrid PSU solution I currently use (linear PSU + Pico on the P24).

* What is the next best option too a full linear cMP setup?
I noticed that amongst inmates it is communis opinio too consider PSU’s designs which are best for analog audio are also considered to be best for digital audio systems. But when reading about power supply noise suppression & decoupling for digital equipment, it appears that also much comes down too carefull and professional PCB design which addresses these issues on the PCB. Actually much of these issues can only be addressed locally on the MoBo. But how much of this is already done with sound quality in mind on a MoBo costing 45 euro’s? Clearly not much because when power supply to the MoBo is improved SQ greatly improves. But does this mean that analog audio and a cMP MoBo have same demands on the quality of power supplied?
Since the MoBo itself also generates lot of noise, delivering exceptional high power quality to the MoBo also might look like an attempt too make sewage water drinkable through mixing it with bottles best spring mineral water available. May be also less extreme PS improvements can still bring some further SQ improvements.

* Why did I try ferrites + caps?
Since constructing an all linear PSU is beyond my DIY skills, the only option left I could think of was some sort of filtering on the power that is supplied by the Pico or the Antec ATX. Articles on power supply noise suppression & decoupling all use some sort of LC filter constructions on the PCB. Mostly through of a combination of ferrite beads and caps. So why not try and see if this also can be applied on the output of the Pico or Antec?
Since I only can solder some kind of filter for use on the P24 line, the filter region can only be in the lower HF area’s. Filtering VHF and UHF can only be realized on the MoBo itself close too the IC’s through special design and using highly specialized parts.

I’m also not capable of doing any calculations on the use of wired coils/chokes (much too difficult) in filters. Especially the calculations on how too prevent ringing of coils/chokes are very complicated. So I was extremely happy that I stumbled upon articles in which ferrites where used in LC filters for noise suppression. Of course I already knew that clamp-on ferrites are being used on all sorts of signal cables and PS cables, but it never sprang too mind trying them on the P24 combined with caps too create an LC filter.

And lastly: ferrites are relatively cheap and it’s very easy too experiment with them on the P24 line.

* What I learned so far from 2 months messing around with ferrites.

1. Just 2 or 3 will have no audible effect.
When using ferrites (without the caps added) a ‘brute force’ approach is needed. At least some 5 to 7 ferrites in series on the P24 are needed too let you hear any subtle SQ improvement.
Although in a completely different situation, this ‘threshold effect’ is described in several articles and power points presentations on the http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm webpages.
The author suggests too clamp on at least 500 to 1000 ohms too get past this ‘threshold effect’.
‘Everything you always wanted too know about clamping ferrites on a wire’ is on these audiosystemsgroup webpages. Also much on proper grounding of your gear. VERY RECOMMENDED reading !
Also other authors report: ‘More is better’.
So put on the maximum amount of ferrits that will possibly fit in some way on your P24. Be creative in how too clamp a maximum amount. The longer the string of ferrites, the better. The impedance is proportional to length. This means that for a certain volume (and weight) of ferrite, best performance will be obtained if the inside diameter fits the cable sheath snugly, and if the sleeve is made as long as possible. A string of sleeves is perfectly acceptable and will increase the impedance pro rata.
See: http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/ferrite.pdf

2. The effect on SQ is no less than ‘jaw dropping’ when creating a filter through adding caps.
The effect of caps used together with ferrites is shown in figure 5-13.
(see also page 38-39 http://www.murata.com/products/catalog/pdf/c39e.pdf )
Van on filtering, demping, ect


3. Use good quality low ESR caps.
The use of good quality, low ESR caps is important. See graph.
Van on filtering, demping, ect

I used Oscons

4. Filter all (!) lines/wires on the P24.
Noise might also creep onto the MoBo through the ‘STD-BY’-line, the ‘PWR-OK’-line and the -12V-line. So just to be sure I also put filter-caps onto these lines too.
However these lines don’t need bulk-capacitors which serve as a ‘current reservoir’. Extra bulk capacitors are only needed on the 3.3, 5 and 12 volt lines too suppress voltage fluctuation through extra current supply.

5. What values too use.
* Ferrites
I first used clamp-on ferrites with the highest possible resistance www.conrad.nl would sell. 172 ohms at 100 mHz. I managed too clamp on 15 ferrites on the P24. But this way I also ended up with ‘a huge pile off charcoal’ on the P24 connector. Leaving no space for caps after the ferrites too create an π-section filter.
So I ordered flat ferrite clamps for ribbon cables (132 ohms at 100 mHz) and an extra P24 extension cable. See picture.
Van on filtering, demping, ect

Carefully check if all off the combined P24 extension cable wires will fit into the flat ferrite clamp. I had too buy an P24 extension cable with extra thin 22 AWG wires too completely fit all P24 wires into the flat ferrite clamp. A P24 extension cable with 18 AWG wires (which are thicker than 22AWG wires) would not allow for fitting all wires into the flat ferrite clamp!
So carefully select the inner dimensions of the flat ferrite clamp for ribbon cable so it can accommodate all of the P24 wires.

Avoid DC bias / saturation
At saturation the attenuation effect of the ferrite core disappears.
To avoid this make sure that both go- and return- currents are of equal strength and both flow through the same core. Used this way the ferrite is not subjected to a net magnetic flux and will not saturate.
See page 109-110 http://www.steward.com/pdfs/emi/technical/Use%20of%20Ferrites%20in%20EMI.pdf

* Caps.
Since I’m not able too make any complicated calculations on what caps value’s too use in the π-section filter I had too find these values by looking at what values I saw being used in articles and papers ect.
The Murata paper recommends using value’s in a 10:1 rating but that still doesn’t provide any absolute value’s. By looking at what values also are being used in other articles and papers and looking at what Oscon value’s I could buy at Conrad I choose: 330 uF + 47uf Oscon’s (I liked 470:47 better, but couldn’t buy 470 uF Oscons at Conrad)

* L-section filter
Since this is project is still 'work in progress' and I’m still experimenting, I did not yet solder any of the caps onto the P24 wires yet. I just pushed the legs of the cap into the inside of the plastic P24 connectors. This way the caps legs can connect too the metal cable connecters inside the plastic P24 connector.
Too construct an L section filter I simply put a triplet of a Panasonic FC 4700 uF + Oscon 47 uF+ 0,47 uF polymer cap on the 3.3V, 5V and 12V section between the Antec and the ferrites. See Picture.


Van on filtering, demping, ect

The effect is no less than amazing !
Hearing is believing.
Much more micro details, imaging, soundstage, etc, etc.
So the usual SQ improvements one gets when improving the power supply but only this time in some nice amounts ! :-)

* π-section filter.
In the past I hardly noticed any SQ improvement when I placed (good quality) caps on the P24 lines.
Putting on the above mentioned triplets didn’t do much, if anything at all when placed them on the P24.
So I was really amazed that putting little 47uF oscon after the ferrites (thus creating π-section filter) now resulted in a clearly audible SQ improvement. See picture.
Van on filtering, demping, ect

Too put in perspective somehow: the 47uF Oscon caps after the ferrites improved SQ again by 15 % of the improvement that the tripplet caps placed before the ferrites (L-section filter) already had brought.

I wrote this interim report too encourage other inmates too experiment with π-section filters on the P24. In my setup an π-section filter made of ferrites + caps brought the usual SQ improvements but this time in GENEROUS AMOUNTS ! Highly recommended.

This is it for now. Do try this at home.

As always: any positive suggestions, comments, ideas, ect, which will improve the above suggested supply noise suppression on the P24 are very much welcomed


Mark

 

RE: Ferrite/cap filter on the P24: next best thing too a full linear cMP setup? (interim report), posted on July 8, 2011 at 05:16:12
JBPZ
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Joined: April 4, 2008
 Are you updated regulators?

 

What regulators do you mean?, posted on July 8, 2011 at 09:25:34
hfavandepas
 Hi JPBZ,

I'm sorry but your question is too cryptic for me. What regulators do you mean?

I only experimented with L-section filters and π-section filters on the P24 line from the Earthwatts ATX created through a combination of (many) ferrites and conductive polymer capacitors (Sanyo os-con).

As suggested by the Murata paper (and other papers as well) this combination of ferrites and capacitors VERY EFFECTIVELY filters power supply noise on the P24.

Very much too my surprise the sound quality ‘quantum leaped’ through use of π-section filters on ALL(!) wires of the P24 coming from the Antec Earthwatts ATX.
No kidding! I wasn’t expecting such spectacular sound quality improvement at all. I only expected some subtle improvements over the PSU combination I normally use on the P24: linear PSU -> Pico 160 XT -> P24 connector.

In no part of this amazing PSU noise filter project I touched or changed any regulators.

What regulators do you mean?

Mark

 

RE: What regulators do you mean?, posted on July 8, 2011 at 10:52:01
JBPZ
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Joined: April 4, 2008
 The Juli@ card regulator, as some guys has used (Gstew and others). Thankx

 

RE: Ferrite/cap filter on the P24: next best thing too a full linear cMP setup? (interim report), posted on July 8, 2011 at 15:32:23
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 Hi Mark
I've read your thread with great interest.
Effect of a pgreek filter is reasonable but your realization is just a bit complex for me, my PC is plentiful of cables yet so I've some difficult to put in an extension P24 cable with a lot of Ferrite rings plus capacitors.
So I ask you this question:
have you tried a pgreek filter only on the couple of cable that feeds the pico psu? Following the "garbage in/garbage out" philosophy it could be a simpler solution? Can you try this one against your solution and report the results?
I'm very curious about it, maybe could be not the best solution at all but I'm sure that could be a simpler solution, if effective.
Thanks a lot for your interesting work
Daniele

 

What is a pgreek filter? google-ing returned no results, posted on July 8, 2011 at 16:40:56
hfavandepas
 Hi Daniele,

What is a ‘pgreek filter’? I never heard of it.
Also google-ing came up with no results.
What is it?

* About the Pico and the switching noise it (probably) produces.
I’ve red that a Pico is also a switching PSU and thus ‘chops’ 12V DC into 5V DC and 3.3V DC.
So being also a switching PSU, the Pico probably also produces unwanted switching noise.
( I’m not completely sure about this. But I guess it must be)

I can understand your view and philosophy on the "garbage in/garbage out" principle.
I agree with: what you clean before the Pico, you don’t have too clean after the Pico.
But since the Pico probably is adding a lot of noisy garbage by itself, filtering AFTER the Pico can’t be left out.

Most likely this is why replacing the Antec Earthwatt ATX -> P24 with a Linear PSU -> Pico -> P24 in my setup, only gave very little and subtle sound quality improvement.
(Again: I’m not sure about this. But I guess this must be the cause)

Constructing and building a high quality linear PSU myself too power the P24 is far beyond my DIY skills. But constructing a L-section filter or an π-section filter through use of ferrites + caps is within reach of my DIY skills. Actually it is rather easy. Anyone can do it. No special skills needed.
And (very!) much to my surprise, the results are nothing less than truly spectacular.
Especially when compared too all previous PSU improvements I’ve already done in my setup.

Studying the picture of the inside of your Zahlman cMP setup I’m very curious what the schematic is of the DC filters I see being used before the Pico and also on the right side of the case.

Mark

 

RE: What is a pgreek filter? google-ing returned no results, posted on July 8, 2011 at 23:00:36
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 π filter=pgreek filter . It's my trivial translaction, I cannot find the right symbol :-).
About picoPSU is it a switching or not? It could be possible, or better probably, but in my system I've noticed a great difference in SQ changing from Seasonic to Peaktech to my diy linear PSU, being last one the better.
So i think it could be possible that the disturbance of picoPSU could be amplified by a "dirty" 12V current so if you ameliorate the current quality before pico could ameliorate his 5V and 3.3V currents.This was true in my system.
Beyond the regular capacitor in each PSU of my linear PSU proposal, I've saved only the Silmic run (6000 mF) in the P4 line of my previous setting.
My "noble" Belleson superregulator based PSU units (2 for the soundboard, 1 for pico and last one for P4) are assembled on a single board inside an old ATX PSU case.
The others board you can see on the picture are the 12V and 5V PSU feeding SSD, HDD,Fans, USB and CD-ROM.
No filters on picoPSU line at all.

 

Ok I hear you about adding caps, posted on July 9, 2011 at 07:41:38
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 But in my system its very difficult to do (i.e., limited space). But where there is a will there is a way. So I added a cap (440 mfd) across the 12v and ground pins of Juli@. I already have a cap across the 5v pins on juli@ so I figured the 12v feed line was the 2nd highest current draw after the 5v feed. Anyway....yes yes you were right very nice sq pop along with the ferrites. I still only have L filters I can't yet figure how to do pi filters. So thanks again Mark.

But now some interesting stuff. You know I have some ferrites on my spdif feed out to my dac. I know many experts believe I might be throwing away some baby with the bathwater, but I tried anyway. I thought it cleaned up the sound a bit. Then I added a .0015 mfd cap too and it made the sound darn near perfect. Remember your curves for caps and ferrites? Ferrites basically handle suppresion above 10 mhz. I use 44 sample rate which IIRC is under 5Mhz so no problem. And my listening confirms this. So if a very small cap is good why not put a large cap in...440 mfd. I did and it suppressed the whole signal. This confirms the reference data which shows a significant increase in suppression for a cap this size especially under 10mhz. I tried this cap in several different places and got the same result. This whole thing got me to thinking that maybe the best remedy to emi suppresion is through these caps. The ferrites help but the caps are the optimum solution in suppresion. And I believe I am right at the razors edge for throwing away bits on the spdif line. But my listening tells me I'm throwing away bathwater and not the baby. When I added a large cap whoa I deepsixed the baby too. Why did I try these values? It was not via calculations it was because I had them at hand and just decided to try. Looking at your refenced docs seem to confirm this and my experimentation seems to support.

Yes thanks again Mark. Others are really encouraged to try this especially the caps. Now if I can figure out how to do pi filters I'll try that next.

 

okay i'll try with the Pico PW-200-M, posted on July 10, 2011 at 06:48:18
hfavandepas
 Hi Daniele,

Sorry I mistakenly studied the picture posted by nagual192 as being your setup. On nagual192’s picture I see a big wired choke on the 12V DC power line that powers the Pico (mounted on a yellow board which is resting on the cpu cooler). I guess that choke is there too filter power too the Pico. So I was curious which frequencies nagual192 targets and how he does the math on preventing the choke from ringing.

This time I studied your pictures.
Do you use your Asus Xonar card as a DAC or as a digital interface too an external DAC?
I guess optimizing power for when the Xonar is used as a DAC, will be extremely challenging and difficult. Slightest micro levels of ripple & noise in power and/or in ground (0 Volt) produced by the MoBo will impact in the DA conversion process. Optimizing this situation is much too difficult for my level of knowledge and skills.

Until some years ago I used a Lynx L22 soundcard but I finally settled on an external DAC.
And only recently I decided too follow Cic’s advice too 100% isolate the external DAC from the computer through use of an (good quality) optical connection.
This way my power supply modifications now only impact the digital processing on the mobo and on the digital inferface. I don’t have too worry any longer on how these modifications will also impact the digital too analog conversion process.

In both situations (Xonar used as a DAC or used as a digital interface) it is important too know if a Pico produces noise on the 12, 5 and 3.3 output. If the Pico is producing noise, than the clean, high quality power coming from the exquise Bellesons, is spoiled by the Pico. Too direct filter actions where they are most effective, it’s important too know if the Pico spoils your carefully generated clean power.

On the other hand it is quite simple too try out your suggestion.
Here’s what springs too mind on what I can do.

* For the experiment I will use the pico PW-200-M.
It is said that this pico regulates all 3 DC lines. (12, 5 and 3.3)

* Use of ferrites
I will put ferrites beads on the 12 DC power line (coming from a linear) too the pico pw-200-M
I will try too realize at least 1000 ohms
I think I can do this through putting 3 or 4 ferrites in series with each a decreasing numbers of turns.
See http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm why.

* Use of Caps
I will put Oscon caps in front and after the ferrites to create a л filter. 47 uf after and some 300 uF before the ferrites.

* Results.
Give some 2 weeks too come up with first impressions, as I don’t know how much time I will want to spend on critical listening sessions indoor.

Besides a very nice spring, until now we had lousy summer weather in The Netherlands. But when weather changes, I will be out with friends in the park in the evening. Enjoying BBQ and drinks. When living in the northern part of Europe, one has too grab all chances too enjoy the summer when weather is good. ;-)

Mark

 

so there is definitely noise traveling on the S/Pdif , posted on July 10, 2011 at 12:40:32
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

Thank you for feedback.

* About the caps on the Juli@.
I don’t know what you mean and how you do that: “across the 12v and ground pins of Juli@” and an L-filter (ferrites + caps) on the Juli@ ?
My Juli@ digital part only has some litte pins on the top of it. See picture.
Van on filtering, demping, ect

How do you manage too fit an L-section filter on there? Is there a thread or picture where I can read/see what you mean and how you are doing that?

* On electrical S/Pdif and noise traveling on these lines.
I agree you are definitely at risk of throwing the baby away with the bathwater.
From your experiments I would conclude there is unwanted noise traveling along with the S/Pdif square wave signals onto your DAC. And your DAC doesn’t like it.
Also some nice clean thinking approach on intercepting the highest noise frequency’s by cutting it off through use of little caps, without cutting (too much) into the S/Pdif frequencies.

But one thing is clear: if placing ferrites and/or caps on the S/Pdif-line is filtering unwanted noise, than there is noise on these S/Pdif lines traveling from your computer to your DAC.
What too do about it?
0. Just let it travel there. Who cares.
1. Use another DAC that has better ‘cleaning capabilities’ or is more immune.
2. Try sending the noise on a D-tour too the ground, before it reaches the DAC (filtering)
3. prevent the noise from traveling across to your DAC (galvanic isolation)
4. kill the source which produces the noise.
May be also other electronic parts on the mobo will like this and might function better as a result.
5. anything else I didn’t think of to stop the noise from traveling too the DAC.

Whether ‘caps only’ (adding capacitance) or ferrites (Resistance/inductance) or a ‘combination of caps + ferrites’ (L-filter, л–filter, ect) are best, depends on which HF noise frequencies you are targeting and how steep you want your filter slopes.
In my situation, placing only caps on the P24 did almost nothing for sound quality. Also placing only a few ferrites improved SQ only somewhat. But putting enough ferrites on the P24 (I tried too realize a 1000 ohms) combined with caps before and after the ferrites, brought generous amounts of sound quality improvement.


One last question. I have received 2 reply’s, yours and JBPZ’s. Both reply’s are about the Juli@ card on adjusting/filtering the power regulation and signaling. But I posted about filtering the power on the P24 and P4 lines with L-section and/or л-filters based on combining ferrites and caps. How does these two relate too one and another?

 

RE: okay i'll try with the Pico PW-200-M, posted on July 10, 2011 at 12:41:31
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 Hi Mark
first I agree with you about BBQ in summer time. I live in Sardinia, I'm bored by sun and summer, and just now I were dreaming some cold: here we have 40°C! So good BBQ in the north country!
I use only the analog output of the Essence and after my last upgrade ( sandy bridge CPU+MoBo and Belleson PSU) I think that picoPsu (150 and 160XT, I've on my 2 cMP2) or wears only simple regulators for 5V and 3,3V or is really the best Switching PSU in the world, IMHO!
SQ of my system is now astounding, background silence is incredible, each instrument rises from nothing, with music cue ( and decay too) so natural and dynamic that seems impossible to me they could come from a digital source. Sandy Bridge is a very effective upgrade in the war against electric rumor and picoPSU is a fantastic ally.
All this is too difficult to acheive from a switching PSU, and I must repeat that, in my experience, linear PSU are'nt all the same: my peaktech sounds worse than the Belleson, surely when feeds the PicoPSU. So Is it the pico sensible to the current quaity? My response is yes.
I'm starting to use ferrite rings. So I'll wait to yours next "cold" tests, in the meantime I carry on with mine.
Buon appetito e salute! Enjoy
Daniele

 

RE: so there is definitely noise traveling on the S/Pdif , posted on July 10, 2011 at 17:33:10
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 All I meant was I already have ferrites all over p24 and caps across Juli@ pins for 5 volt feed and now I have added caps on the 12 v feed. I know that eliminating noise on the power lines are the optimum solution for killing emi but I don't have any room on p24 to be able to get at installing caps so I take what I can get. Thats all. I am not willing to add more stuff to P24, already no room.

 

RME Card Problem again, posted on July 18, 2011 at 06:15:27
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Dear Forum & dear RME-cMP Users,

We thought the problem was gone, but it has resurfaced :

Our installed RME 9632 plays great on cMP for about two hours. After then it often comes up with plops in a frequency of 2-4 seconds. These plops are not volume dependent and are masked when volume is up.

I think the explanation Bibo01 gives further down makes sense, but RME Support denies there are any Updates going on in the behind, so can I trigger some more thoughts on this ?
We have tried to engage the mentioned Services with no result....


Kind regards

Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

Issue with CMP & Windows 7 : Unable to get Acess priviledges, posted on July 23, 2011 at 13:51:45
Laurent D.
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Location: Nantes, Fra.
Joined: July 23, 2011
 Dear All,

I have an issue with CMp on the new computer I got from my company.

I installed CMp as I did on other computers, but when I start it, it shows :

"Process: explorer.exe
Terminated.
ERROR: Unable to get Acess priviledges.
optimiseProcesses: Cannot Set Access priviledges. Play CD failed."

I can access to the main page, but when I try to play a cue file, it sates the same problem.

The new PC runs with Windows 7 professional.

Coul anyone tell me what 's wrong and what should I do to make It work ?

Many thanks,

Laurent.

 

RE: Issue with CMP & Windows 7 : Unable to get Acess priviledges, posted on July 24, 2011 at 00:56:08
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: December 18, 2008
 If you are referring to cMP shell, you need to disable Welcome screen first, otherwise cMP will not work.

http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CMP.07Optimisations
Paragraph 5.13

 

RE: Issue with CMP & Windows 7 : Unable to get Acess priviledges, posted on July 24, 2011 at 14:25:15
Laurent D.
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Location: Nantes, Fra.
Joined: July 23, 2011
 Removing the welcome screen under windows 7 is not as easy as under XP, specially on my laptop.

First of all, for an obscure reason, I cannot select the option "Ouverture de session sĂŠcurisĂŠe - les utilisateurs doivent appuyer sur Ctrl Alt Suppr" ("Secure Login (?)- users have to press Ctrl Alt Del" I understand this will remove the welcome screen)

Going to :
HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon\DisableCAD
the value is already set to 0, which I understand means that users have to press Ctrl Alt Del to login ... which is not the case when I swich on the computer.

I do not know wether or not this is linked to the fact that the computer is normally linked to the network of my company ??

Laurent

 

A Pico uses a switching frequency of 300kHz. (see specs LM2642MTC chip), posted on July 24, 2011 at 16:00:00
hfavandepas
 Hi Daniele,

Last 2 weeks the lousy summer weather even got worse in The Netherlands. In some places it rained for 20 hours on a row. According our national weather forecast service (KNMI) this hasn’t happened since 1954. : -(
Despite this weather, I did not spend much time on the project on filtering the power supply (filtering the 12V DC power input) too the Pico PW-200-M.

Although I made some progress. I did choose and order the parts needed for a variety of filter setups. I not only want to do some experiments on filtering the input side (as you requested), but I also want too do filter experiments on the output side of the Pico. As it is cleaning the output of the Pico, that I’m most interested in.

Last week I did some research on the WWW too see if I could discover what switching frequency is used by the Pico. I discovered that both Pico’s in my setup (the PW-200-M and the 160-XT) use the LM2642 Two-Phase Synchronous Step-Down Switching Controller (with a magnifying glass one can see the part number on the controller). This controller is manufactured by National Semiconducter.
See: http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM2642.pdf

This LM2642 chip consists of two current mode synchronous buck regulator controllers with a switching frequency of 300kHz. This 300Khz switching frequency will probably result in widely scattered band of noise on the Pico outputs. As I don’t have a scope, I don’t know how well this noise is filtered, but putting an π-section filter made of ferrites + caps on the pico output, resulted in a very nice sound quality improvement. So I think the output of the Pico is not filtered much. Probably only so much filtering is done as is needed too comply with EMI regulations. Since an π-section filter from ferrites + caps only ‘bites off’ noise effectively in the upper regions (1 mHz - 300 mHz) of the widely scattered hash of 300 kHz switching noise, I’m also looking for ways too filter the HF noise from 100 kHz too 1 mHz.
Since ferrites are not effective in this region, I will need too use filters made of inductors + caps. So I probably will end up with some sort of 2-stage filter. First stage for filtering the 100 kHz too 1 mHz region with a combination of inductors + caps. The second stage (1 mHz - 300 mHz) with a combination of ferrites + caps.

So Right now I’m searching the web for idea’s on how to filter SMPS noise with a combination of chokes/coils + caps and what value’s too use for L and C.

I also want too experiment with such a filter design on the input and output of the Pico.
See: http://www.hamill.co.uk/pdfs/azrtatad.pdf
Some inmate on the diyaudio forum pointed too this.

* on the P4, a standard 230 V AC power line filter, combined with a π-section filter from ferrites + caps gave a very nice pop sound quality!
Just out of curiosity, I threw a standard EMC- 230 V AC Power Line Filter for 1-Phase Systems (2 x 10mH + 2x 0.015 uF + 1x 2.2 nF) into the 12 V DC power line too the P4. See: Ontstoringsfilter 1 A (Conrad Electronic).
I already use an π-section filter (2x 100uF + 2 ferrites (with 4 turns) + 2x 47uF) on the P4 12 V DC power line coming from the Velleman Lineair PSU.
I put the standard 230V AC power line filter before the π-section filter.
It made a real nice SQ improvement !

Every time I’m still surprised on what a little noise –cleaning can do for sound quality in a cMP setup. So I can’t wait too start experimenting with various combinations L + C filters. I expect the ordered parts too arrive at the end of this week.
So coming weeks/months I will be busy experimenting with various concepts and various combinations of L + C filters on the input and output of the Pico’s in my setup.
I will start on the input side of the pico.
As soon I have have results I let you know, but this surely will take another few weeks.

Mark

 

RE: Also have a question about ADuM4160 isolator, posted on July 25, 2011 at 02:09:05
kclo
Audiophile

Posts: 68
Joined: August 21, 2010
 Hi Ryelands,

I have just got the same isolator as shown in your photo. I would also like to use option 3 and have purchased a linear 5V power supply. I would just like to confirm that to bypass the on-board regulator, I need to :

1. Connect pins Vin to Vbus (as shown in the red wire in the photo), and

2. Connect pins AGND to Shdn (as not at all clear in the photo)

Your help is deeply appreciated.

 

RE: Also have a question about ADuM4160 isolator, posted on July 25, 2011 at 04:58:43
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 I've arrowed the jumper in the attached pic. Hope that's clearer.



You can also solder the power lines to the underside of the barrel socket - easier than finding the right barrel plug.

HTH

Dave

 

RE: Also have a question about ADuM4160 isolator, posted on July 25, 2011 at 05:14:44
kclo
Audiophile

Posts: 68
Joined: August 21, 2010
 Thanks for the speedy reply. You do connect AGND to Shdn with a jumper.

However I have another question. According to the USB Isolator web page, the designer only mentioned that the first connection ( Vin to Vbus) and hadn't mentioned the second connection, as in this paragraph here:

"Now, let’s discuss building the circuit. First of all, you need to understand one thing. This circuit is an isolator and consequently has two power rails and two grounds, marked GND and AGND. Don’t connect these two grounds together. Uplink side of ADuM4160 is powered from host USB bus, downlink power has to be provided form separate supply, usually wall wart. If you have 5V wall-wart capable of providing enough power to the USB device connected to the downlink port plus 10ma for isolator itself, you don’t need to build a regulator. Simply connect pad marked “Vin” to a pad marked “Vbus”. If your device is self-powered and have 3.3-5V supply, it can also be used to power downlink side of ADuM4160 by connecting it to “Vbus” pad."

And looking at the wiring diagram, AGND is connected to the input return. Why is it needed to connect to Shdn?

Thanks again for your help.

 

RE: Also have a question about ADuM4160 isolator, posted on July 25, 2011 at 06:08:00
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 . . . looking at the wiring diagram, AGND is connected to the input return. Why is it needed to connect to Shdn?

What follows are extracts from the e-mails I exchanged with Oleg Mazurov back in April last year.
If possible, use DACs power supply to power B-side of isolator instead of the supply on isolator board. Also, if USB cable on DAC side is of any length, find out if cable shield is grounded on DAC connector and, if not, ground it on the isolator board ( it is not grounded by default ).

By that, do you mean connecting a clean 5-volt supply to the V-bus pad and its Gnd to the AGnd pad? Currently, I'm using a12v supply via the barrel connector but by-passing the switching regulator with 5v makes sense to me.

Yes, that's why Vbus pad is there. Ground to agnd is optional - you'll get ground return via USB ground wire anyway. There is also Vin pad close to barrel connector which can also be used if you want to use your own power supply - wire Vin to Vbus, Shdn to Agnd (this will switch off the power supply ) and supply 5V via barrel connector.

There are also ways to power B-side from 3.3V - you will need to supply it directly to pin 14.


Hope that's clearer,

Dave

 

Suggestions welcome for modification U1 voltage regulator on the Juli@ digital part., posted on July 25, 2011 at 13:57:34
hfavandepas
 Hi all,

Clean power is key too get best possible sound quality from a cMP setup. I probably hesitated much too long, but I finally gathered enough courage now too dare trying too un-solder voltage regulator on the Juli@ digital part and replace it for a better one.

Since my solder skills are only very basic (level = baking & frying), I welcome all tips and suggestions from inmates who already did this modification themselves.

However my main question is: what regulator is best too replace the stock MT1117 Juli@ voltage regulator?
Unstill now I only found 2 suggestions for a better regulator:
- ANALOG DEVICES ADP3338AKCZ-3.3RL7.
- Classd/dexa DX7803 3.3V UWB regulator

Any other suggestions for a beter voltage regulator?

Mark

 

RE: Suggestions welcome for modification U1 voltage regulator on the Juli@ digital part., posted on July 25, 2011 at 14:12:54
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 use lifepo4 batteries with a cap bank. PITA to charge but sounds great.

 

Looks like cics's site is down, posted on July 25, 2011 at 14:27:39
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Maybe this makes it official.

This exercise is over.

Fun while it lasted and it is still fun.

Would be good to hear a last hurrah.

 

RE: Also have a question about ADuM4160 isolator, posted on July 25, 2011 at 15:24:50
kclo
Audiophile

Posts: 68
Joined: August 21, 2010
 Oh, "wire Vin to Vbus, Shdn to Agnd (this will switch off the power supply )", to switch off the power supply. Got it.

Thanks. Will give it a go.

 

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