 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
99.237.128.158
In Reply to: RE: What do you do with the digital "in"? posted by rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com on November 16, 2008 at 18:45:34
Hi Rick
1): Recall I have yet to build a standalone cMP machine. The box that hosts my software-only implementation of cMP+cPlay is also my main-machine... doing double duty as general purpose computer and DAW. All questions of lowering power consumption, underclocking RAM &CPU, isolating dirty from clean power supplies, ditching analoge sound sections, etc., etc., etc., etc., must wait for the Happy Day I build a new box.
2): The Juli@ card replaced an M-Audio Delta 1010 (due to the 96Khz SR limit of the Delta). For the many tasks it performs, the analogue output from Juli@ is a must. I may decide to yank it in the cMP Rig.
3): I look forward to getting the EA430 PS... and tinkering with the voltage pot. Thanks in advance to Bernd for sharing this tweak with The Brotherhood - Great Discovery !
4): Oh yes... TWEAK ALERT: The Digital-IN can be used to supply Juli@ with an external clock source during playback. If the external clock is better/cleaner than Juli@'s internal oscillator, you'll get a "better" S/PDIF stream to feed your external D/A converter. What you hear depends on the resolution of your D/A & monitoring setup... but you should hear an improvement. I know I do.
My converters are from the good folks at Benchmark Media Systems... the much-balley-hooed DAC1 and the even-more-astonishing ADC1. The ADC1 provides a VERY clean clock (up to 192 KHz), and the DAC1 tells me so. It was true with the Delta 1010, and is true too with Juli@.
Select EXTERNAL in Juli@'s control panel, connect ADC1 to digital-IN, set the desired sample rate on the Benchmark (no audio input to ADC1) and the embedded clock in the (silent) datastream will clock the card's output with greater accuracy. Instant upgrade... without the messy soldering !
And damn fine recordings from your analogue sources too (Lenco L75, Studer B67, etc.).
So, I hope I've answered the question...
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Follow Ups:
You said '...Oh yes... TWEAK ALERT: The Digital-IN can be used to supply Juli@ with an external clock source during playback. If the external clock is better/cleaner than Juli@'s internal oscillator, you'll get a "better" S/PDIF stream to feed your external D/A converter. What you hear depends on the resolution of your D/A & monitoring setup... but you should hear an improvement. I know I do...' can one do this with the stock juli card (ie w/o your very clever soldering tweak)? If so how does one do this, I mean can any adc be used? I'm interested because I have a Benchmark dac1 too. How much is the Benchmark adc?
Edits: 11/17/08
Hi TheoTwo requirements are needed for this to work:
1) Juli@ clock select is set to EXT in the control panel...
2) you connect an S/PDIF datastream to the Juli@'s digital-IN port (BNC tweak not required - but it helps). The S/PDIF signal has an embedded clock, and so Juli@ locks to this for it's reference (ignoring it's own internal oscillator). Of course, you want to send a sample rate that matches your chosen cPlay-SRC-upsampled output rate (ie: 192 KHz input for cPlay at 192 SRC). Not all ADCs work up to 192 SR... and not all ADCs that go that high work equally well.A mismatched SR will not harm the Juli@, but you will hear funny results. I often neglect to power up the ADC1 before launching my cMP environment. Running cPlay at -121/192KHz-SRC through Juli@ (when set to EXT), and failing to send any clock input, defaults playback to 44.1... which is similar to playing a 30 ips analog tape at 7.5 ips... low... slow... and completely wrong ! Try it yourself (no external ADC required).
External ADC:
With the DAC1 you're more than Halfway to Heaven... and the purchase of an ADC1 is no small consideration. It is a STUNNING encoder, and for anyone recording digital audio from 2-channel analogue sources, it's pretty hard to beat. I bought mine before the USB version was released :(Depending on your other needs, a standard ADC1 would serve nicely. (...and no, I'm not a Benchmark shill - just a very happy customer)
Trouble is, you can't buy a cheap, HQ standalone clock source - at least not as I'm aware (but then don't confuse me with An Expert - I'm just reporting on my own personal experience).
What I've found is:
my DAC1 told me that clocking the Delta 2496 card with an M-Audio Audiosport Duo USB (see Item number: 220311232334 on ebay right now, and you may get a bargain to experiment with - but beware it's 96KHz-capable only)...
...was a small improvement over the Delta's internal reference. Using the ADC1 as clock source increased the effect (cleaner highs & lows, more precise imaging... the whole audiophile bag of cliches). When the Delta 1010 replaced the 2496, I heard equivalent benefits (the cards are of the same vintage).With Juli@, the ADC1 clock improves the sound, but it is more subtle... it doesn't club you over the head with "Now THAT'S really different". I suppose the smaller percentage improvement is owing to a more modern design (better chips) in Juli@ than the old M-Audio cards had to begin with. Still - A Little Bit... is A Little Bit Better !
But don't buy an ADC1 JUST to clock your Juli@... unless you're blessed with unfettered budget and no one to answer to !!So... Theo - did I answer your question ? I hope so.
Cheers,
GrantThat's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Edits: 11/17/08 11/17/08
wow you did answer them thank you very much!! let me ask you this can one use a digital in say from toslink or aes/ebu (the balanced ins) of the same benchmark dac to externally clock? Or said another way why not just set the juli panel to external? Will that work with the Benchmark?no I don't have unlimited cash.
Edits: 11/17/08
Hi Theo
Pardon me for not being clear enough at the outset...
The Benchmarks:
1) DAC1 receives a digital input. The format can be AES/EBU, or S/PDIF on copper coax, or S/PDIF on optical TOSlink. DAC1 does not have a separate WORDCLOCK input, rather it determines the incoming sample rate from the embedded clock. DAC1 has NO digital outputs of any kind... and therefore nothing to offer for externally clocking the Juli@.
2) ADC1 sends a digital output. The output format can be AES/EBU, and S/PDIF on copper coax, and S/PDIF on optical TOSlink (the clock is embedded in the output signal). ADC1 ALSO has a dedicated WORDCLOCK output (not suitable for use with Juli@).
Most (I hesitate to say "all"...) professional equipment will provide an input for WORDCLOCK, the idea being that all devices must sync up with one master clock, in order that the sample rates of every device operate as one. The better the clock, the better the gear works "as one", and reduced timing errors = better sound. That's why studios will spend a small fortune on a really good Master Clock - the only job it does is to provide a very precise reference for everyone to sync to.
Juli@:
As with most other non-pro cards, the Juli@ has no dedicated WORDCLOCK-IN. It will sync to the incoming signal on it's digital-IN. Your task is to find a device you can afford to buy, that can output an S/PDIF signal up to 192 KHz (presuming you are interested in using that rate of upsampling in cPlay). That device will be some kind of Analog-to-Digital converter that has S/PDIF output on copper coax.
Sorry, you haffta get another Box to play this game. Yeah... Take One for The Team !
A little clearer now ?
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
yes very clear and thank you again. I don't know, maybe its a mute point because now I prefer no upsampling (I was a firm believer in -146 SRC and 192 sampling rate until this latest cplay version). But if and when cics converts all the src code to SIMD (sp?) I will just sit on 44khz out put from cplay.
Edits: 11/18/08
Heh-heh Theo... trying to dodge the Bullet for the Team eh ?
Keep in mind that the benefit of a cleaner clock reference extends to ALL sample rates. "I'm only playing cPlay at 44.1 KHz" does not change that fact.
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
You got me there sir.
What puzzles me is before I built a cmp/cplay dedicated computer I was running cplay on my home pc. I had the juli card installed and I was running 24/176 and the sound was good (not as good as it is with cmp/cplay in a dedicated pc --- by far). But anyway I had a usb cable running from my pc to the Benchmark (along with a spdif cable from juli to Benchmark) and I also had other players like j river and WMP11 on that pc. I selected external clock on my juli panel and to my recollection it worked and sounded better than an internal clock selection on the panel. Now in my dedicated E7200, gigabyte, kingston ram computer (in which I have juli assemlbed) I cannot get the external clock selection to work. I'm wonderting why it worked before. Can anybody herlp on this?
Hi Theo
That's a good one ! Were you using an earlier version of the Juli@ driver in the situation you describe ? It MAY be that it was written to default to a different - and coincidentally compatible - sample rate when EXT is selected and no incoming signal is detected.
Beyond that I can't say. It "shouldn't" work if you don't have an S/PDIF stream connected to the digital-IN of the Juli@. Wellll... it's always something...
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
It was .978 juli driver now I'm using the new one (forgot #). But maybe I remember wrong.
Just to convince me whether this is worth pursuing (I'm not buying a $1700 adc), how much improvement did you get with external clocking? Was it as much as going from 2.09 to 2.20 version of cplay? Or something smaller?
Hi Theo (and Lurkers...)
I understand your reticence for ordering the ADC1 - just to clock the Juli@ ! And I salute your curiosity.
So I thought this today... Anyone who's dedicated enough to tinker with the cMP idea MUST have come from a halfway-decent CD player... and it's probably still hanging around the house somewhere. You can try out the external clock trick "for free" - as long as you limit your cPlay to 44.1 KHz playback (ie: no upsampling).
Power up the CD player, connect the digital-OUT to Juli@'s digital-IN, and see if it makes a difference for you . There are so many variables here, that "it depends" is the only solid prediction I'll make. Chances are your high-end player has a better clock crystal than the Juli@... or maybe not.
I await your reports.
---------------------------------------------
Theo wrote:
Was it as much as going from 2.09 to 2.20 version of cplay?
Surely you mean "2.0b10" and not some phantom cPlay v2.20... I'll try these combinations and see if I can describe the differences.
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
great idea...will try. yes thanks for the correction on the 2.0b10 and btw I have an oppo that can output 24/88 and 24/176 as well as 24/44 from its special modded digital outs. Will have to wait until I get a real dvd player to pull it out of my video sys.
fantastic thinking!!
I have an old panasonic dvd player that has a digital out. so I hooked it up to juli digital in but it only shows up as 48khz on juli panel. listened and yes it sounds ok initially. I listened for a longer period of time to 48k external clock versus 48k internal clock and it is very close. Maybe external is a bit better (richer, more bass, less hash, more body). Now I can't wait till I get my oppo in my audio sys and try the higher clock rates.Omg I initially understated how good this is. Everybody out there you gotta try. On classical the dynamics are greater, unfettered ... FFFF just blows the walls down.
thank you grant!!
Oh baby this is good. The funny thing is I was going to throw this panasonic away because the dvd drive doesn't work any more but the clock sure does.
Edits: 11/19/08 11/19/08
Hi TheoIn case you have a little jingle in your pocket for this external clocking tweak - ebay has an auction closing in 40 minutes you should consider.
Sign in and search for Item number: 220311232334 - This is the same unit I began using to clock my PCI cards (before it was replaced with the Benchmark ADC1)
Thew advantage to you here is the easily selectable sample rates. And it's an OK 2-ch A-to-D converter if you ever need to do some recording.
Good Luck and Go-Get-EM... TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM !!
GrantThat's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Edits: 11/19/08 11/19/08
not bad but limited to 48Khz
Hi Theo
[note the now-familiar BNC mod]
The maximum encode/decode SR in the USB Duo is 96KHz (as I stated previously). It is limited to 48KHz when run in duplex mode (simultaneous send AND receive) via the USB 1.1 connection. We don't care about that.
There is a Standalone Mode, where the USB connection is not involved, and only the S/PDIF jack emits signal. To set the SR, you flip the unit over and adjust 2 DIP switches...
...and you get all the stops along the way...
At thirty-six bucks, the ebay-Duo would be a cheap source of a reasonably good external clock - and more convenient than coaxing your disc players into emitting the desired SR. Just my two cents.
Please DO report on your higher SR clocking experience with cMP.
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
AW gee dad the bidding just ended. You are right its a good deal. I read the owners manual and saw 48Khz and declined at that.
ok grant after one day of listening to external clock I'm convinced. Besides the M audio product that I missed on ebay what else is out there, that is reasonably priced, that provides clocks up to 192?
...what is this all about? There was a clear difference between panasonic dvd player (circa 1998) and oppo 980 (circa 2008) and internal juli clock (in between). I don't understand. Anybody understand this?
Maybe its all a matter of clock circuit or power supply to the clock circuit. I dunno but I'll tell you the panasonic is in for the long term till I can replace with a better one.
Looks like $1700.00 is the price of admission.
If it makes a dramatic difference, one could consider it a justifiable purchase but I KNOW I am not going to be the first to try it.
Theo, buy one for the team. At least, we would get a good assessment from someone who knows how to listen. Maybe someone would allow you to audition the unit for a few days?
I see it has a TOSLINK output, though for the WORDCLOCK they only talk about 75 ohms impedance so this maybe is limited to BNC. Grant, would you fill us in? I have no idea how this works.
You could send your JULI@ to Bob and get the necessary BNC's that will work with a standard computer case. One way or the other this would be worthwhile.
Just trying to be manipulative, I mean, helpful.
Bye,
Rick McInnis
Take one for the team...I love your response!!! Being retired does have limits. I'm still trying to figure out if I can set my AGI power supply lower (I have no idea how to start a search on this). You guys are way ahead of me.
OK... sorry for the goofy subject line.1) ADC1 is truly a professional product - of extremely high quality - with many features useful only for recording activities. No wonder it costs $$$.
2) WORDCLOCK signal is always 75 ohms and distributed via electrical coax/BNC-terminated cables.
3) Juli@ does not have a distinct (separate) WORDCLOCK input... only digital-IN and digital-OUT.
4) S/PDIF data format has the clock embedded in the signal - and reading this (from the digital-IN port) is the only way Juli@ can get an incoming clock reference. In fact, that's how the card syncs up to another (external) device when recording from it's digital inputs.
Just a few words of clarification.
Cheers,
GrantThat's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Edits: 11/17/08
The external clock thing has been floating out there in the tweak ether for quite awhile though no one, to my knowledge, has reported on the effects.
I know I and others would like to hear what you think especially in the context of the dedicated cMP machine when you get a chance to assemble one.
Would the analog part of the card need to be involved for the external clock to work? I have made my card DEDICATED digital only by using those pins for capacitor bypasses.
THANKS to you for apprising us of your work and thoughts. I know I am one of many who are glad that you are involved in THIS.
Bye,
Rick McInnis
Gentlemen,
first post from a long time reader/lurker - please have mercy... ;-)
I have followed this thread about modifying / providing the Juli@ card with an external clock - and I would very much like to get your ideas on what I plan to do here:
I also have a Benchmark DAC1 (IMHO one of the technically best solutions currently around), and I plan to use a Lynx AES16 (http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=13, not the 16e variant since this one would be for PCIe and as far as I see this is not recommended). This offers not only 24/192 output but also allows an external word clock input via a BNC connector. I probably will add a really decent pro-like clock (since I believe that this is in the same categorie for the sonic results as say power supply) like e.g. an Antelope Audio product or something similar.
What do you think - wouldn't that be a good solution?
Cheers
Robert
Post a Followup:
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
