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In Reply to: RE: The Search for Theo's Clock... posted by theob on November 21, 2008 at 04:07:57
Check out Black Lion Audio's micro clock around 400 bucks I think.
You could also have one of the audio modding companies replace the cards crystal with a Audiocom super clock 4.
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RAM&Category_Code=SCLK4
Regards
PC XPpro TC Electronic Konnekt-8 firewire i/o, 2-Tact 2150's, Genesis 500 modified speakers, Virtual Dynamics & XLO cables
Follow Ups:
The outputs on the Black Lion are all Wordclock out - aren't they? It doesn't have S/PDIF output - does it? (That's what Theo needs).
they have 3 (or 6) bnc outputs which is what is needed to hook up to the juli. will synching to a wordclock output stream work on the juli digital in?
...and TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM !!'cause I just got a reply from Matt at Black Lion Audio - to wit:
================================================================
re: Micro Clock S/PDIF Modification...
Hello Grant,
Thanks for your email. We've had other people ask about this as well, not for the ESI, but for other devices. In theory, this is possible, and easily done by padding the output down from TTL level to SPDIF level. However, we haven't actually tested it, so I can't say 'yes' with absolute certainty. While S/PDIF isn't the best method of delivering a digital clock signal, sometimes we're constrained by reality so I can see the necessity of doing something like this.
Let me experiment with it over the weekend.
Matt
================================================================
Seems I've stirred the pot twice this week...Can't wait for next week's developments.
Cheers,
GrantThat's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Edits: 11/21/08
Grant,
If one was to use the input BNC as per your modified JULI@ would this mitigate this SPDIF concern? Or is there, too, a question of signal power?
So is the fellow at BLACK LION concerned about, more than anything else, the efficacy of an RCA connection?
Theo, if that is the case, simply get Grant to arrange for your JULI@ to be modified like his.
This BLACK LION device seems to do what is required for a reasonable price. Since I am working towards converting my machine to battery power per Bernd's posts, it would be simple enough to power this thing with the same (huge) battery.
It seems if all of these things can make a difference we might be ready to make a leap in quality, or just expense.
Bye,
Rick McInnis
good question rick, but if it sounds good off of rca connectors I'll just convert the juli digital in to bnc and go from there. I'm also still trying to understand why this works. I'm reclocking the digital stream before it gets to the Benchmark where its reclocked again. It sounds like it shouldn't work but it does. I sent an email to BL to follow up still waitng their answer.Grant or cics can either of you comment on this?
Edits: 11/22/08 11/22/08
Theo, Rick & Lurkers
I agree with Theo's first point... a valid EXT-CLOCK experiment can be done using the RCA/breakout cable. If you like what you hear, a BNC connection will make that effect a little better (impedance matching, more direct connection, etc. etc.)
There's a distinction you must make between the reference clock of a device (aka: master oscillator), and the upsampling/resampling operation you perform on a datastream.
The former is used to divide time accurately into slices, corresponding with the chosen sample rate. The latter is what cics is doing with SRC in cPlay.
What the Benchmark does to the signal (ie: re-sample to 110 KHz for internal processing) has no bearing on the question (or value) of externally clocking the Juli@ card.
DAC1:
The DAC1 does it's magic with whatever you send into it - and a "better" input stream will be heard as "better" reproduction (providing your monitoring chain is up to the task). The incongruous fact that your SRC-upsampled 192 stream is then DOWN-sampled to 110 inside the DAC1 should give you nightmares... except that 110 KHz is what Benchmark engineers found to be the sweet spot for the chips they are using, and the proof is in the listening. Interesting to note I clearly hear the benefit of 176/192 vs 88.2/96 when playing the SR game with the Benchmark.
I personally believe the DAC1 will always reflect even the most subtle of changes because it's design is that good, and I can trust it as my, my... (forgive me for this) my benchmark . In my room, all digital sources are heard through the DAC1, because only then can I judge what I hear with confidence (especially when doing mixing/mastering work for clients).
Juli@:
Externally clocking Juli@ provides greater timing precision than it's own oscillator can. The more accurately it slices time, the better it will assemble the analogue waveform, and S/PDIF stream - and the output will be that much more faithful to what cPlay is sending.
"SIMD instructions fully optimized for 192 KHz" notwithstanding, you will always get better sound from the Juli@ (at whatever SR you choose) by giving it a better reference clock to work with. Unless the EXT-CLOCK source is inferior to Juli@'s onboard circuit... but you wouldn't waste your time on that !
Rick:
To your question... I don't know if the WC coming out of the Black Lion Micro Clock is suitable (with appropriate adjustment of voltage level) to feed Juli@'s Digital-IN (and create the desired EXT-CLOCK effect). The connector type is secondary to Juli@ "understnding" the WC signal format. Matt's email reply suggests it can be done, and I'm happy as a manufacturer BL is so willing to examine, test and proclaim this "new" use for their box will work for us. And just in time for the Holiday Season !!
I'm excited for all you guys who want to take your cMP Rig a step up the Quality Ladder - if the BL-MC can do the job, it's "reasonably" affordable, a cute little accessory and solves the biggest knock against the Anointed Soundcard (I'm just waiting to get flamed for that...)
If Rick & Bernd get the Battery Option figured out, this is going to be one serious contender for Best Music Maker !
Hope this clarifies the issue Theo.
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
very nice response and of course you are right. I thought about it after I wrote my last post...the Benchie improves everything you send to it otherwise how would cplay ever sound better on it than other reference players. So an improved clocked stream has to be better. that's the only problem I have with Benchmark's claims that it doesn't matter what you send it that the Benchie will clean it up to some absolute level of excellence. not true every incremental improvment in cplay is clearly revealed by the DAC1 as yet another improvement in sonics.You said...
SIMD instructions fully optimized for 192 KHz" notwithstanding, you will always get better sound from the Juli@ (at whatever SR you choose) by giving it a better reference clock to work with. Unless the EXT-CLOCK source is inferior to Juli@'s onboard circuit... but you wouldn't waste your time on that...
what I meant was that assuming I have the same panasonic clock (which only does 48khz), I personally believe that cplay with src optimized for simd will be better with juli's internal clock at 192. yes if the black lion pans out then, yes, that would probably be better yet.
grant I am impressed with your analytical capability plus your lucid writing skills. the 2 rarely come in packages.
btw have you heard from Black Lion? I sent them an email also but so far no response.
Edits: 11/23/08 11/23/08
(...with apologies to Focus )
Theo, thank you for the compliment... now it'll take me at least two hours to post anything, lest I slip back from the high standards...
RE: Benchmark "Claims" (or AU CONTRAIRE # 2):
(he-he... as if I need to be an apologist for Benchmark)
Theo sez: "...only problem I have with Benchmark's claims that it doesn't matter what you send it that the Benchie will clean it up to some absolute level of excellence. not true every incremental improvement in cPlay..."
Be careful to distinguish between TRANSMISSION jitter (from which Benchmark claims immunity) and SAMPLING jitter (a Different Devil completely). I HIGHLY recommend reading Bob Katz book Mastering Audio - the art and the science , especially chapter 19 on Jitter. Bob defines it thus:
Interface Jitter: the jitter present in the interconnections between equipment.
Sampling Jitter: the jitter in the clock which drives the converter.
A-HA... you can fill in the blanks for what I should write next - and all you knowledge seekers - go read Bob's book !
I would state the Benchmark case a bit differently:
The DAC1 does not improve the incoming signal, it merely allows you to hear (with great clarity and precision) what's coming down the pipe. Inasmuch as it re-samples the data for internal use (thereby rejecting TRANSMISSION jitter) - yes it changes the signal - but not to editorialize upon the original.
On the other hand, the processing in cPlay does indeed CHANGE the resultant sound - it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than playing the RBCD on a CD player. That you can perceive every incremental improvement in cPlay is testament to the DAC1 getting out of the way (editorial-wise), and reporting honestly on your bitstream.
Should you care to provide Juli@ a more precise timing reference, it can't help but to increase the accuracy with which it assembles the analogue & digital outputs.
Regarding Black Lion:
I should hear from Matt by Wednesday this week - he expected to do some S/PDIF experiments over the weekend.
OK... gotta go install v2.0b11-B9 and hear what the fuss is all about !
Cheers,
Grant
(ps: for a long story about how cable choice DOES matter between ADC1 & DAC1 look here -> http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/benchmark-dac1-now-available-usb-223006/index79.html#post3169085 )
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
hear anything from black lion? I haven't.
I stand corrected about Benchmark by the master. Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for following up. I read somewhere where these guys offer a free 7 day trial. If thats the case I may try it. There are so many uncertainties that otherwise I probably wouldn't try. With respect to Rick's comment on maybe this a euphonic effect I would say no. Anything that increases dynamics, extension and inner detail is not accidental or euphonic imo.
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