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In Reply to: RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player posted by cics on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
Well, with the help and EXTREME assistance of Grant, I've joined the Super-Slimmed cMP/cPlay world. That plus his foray into memory timings have made for some significant improvements in my unit's sound… dare I say a 'breakthough' level of improvement?Given that and also given that I've not gotten any further on MoBo Mods with the older G31 boards both Grant and I have, I've decided to move up to the H61M-S2H series Mobo (which will force me to do some MoBo Mods).
But both of these have left me with some questions... And a few musings...
1. For a die-hard Juli@ user, the GA-H61M-S2H board is the right one, correct? And according to JackWong, I want the 1.2 revision, not the 1.3?
2. Rick, I know you had commented about the trials of getting an adapter to use your old processor cooler on the new socket. Did you ever find one or did you resort to buying a new cooler?
3. I know several of you have DOMs now... And more than a few have SSDs. And I bet even more than a few have both DOMs & SSDs. My question is what configuration has turned out to be the best optimization of the tradeoffs for a super-slimmed system with no networking? Small DOM, midsized SSD, larger HDD? Small DOM, larger HDD? I'm leaning towards the first of these, but that means that I have to turn on both sets SATA inputs in the BIOS & will mean a slightly larger driver & Windows footprint. I wish I could buy a sufficiently large SSD to hold my music, but those are still, sadly, out of my budget! What I can afford is a small DOM for the OpSys, a medium SSD (128Gb - 256Gb) for my favorite music, and a 1TB or more 2.5" HDD for the rest of my music. I'd power all from a separate 5v supply initially and split it into multiple supplies later.
Then on the musings side... First I was not fully prepared on how disabled the Windows setup is with a 'Super-Slimmed' system. I had been looking for a wireless mouse that I could use with a PS/2 port... But without the CICSREMOTE, it is just a mouse. So I'm currently using a PS/2 keyboard, separately-powered of course, and using the keyboard commands. I've been looking at ways to do a better command input with remote capability using the keyboard... I was going down the path of hacking a keyboard and using a remote board with relay outputs to select the different keys. Key combos would require a little circuitry to enable, but was all doable. But talking with the owner of one of the companies that made the relay-output remote boards, he turned out to be an audio buff who did a lot of work setting up fancy HT systems. He had a better suggestion... Get an older IR-connected wireless keyboard, use a learning remote to learn the signals for each of the command keysets, make sure it's a sophisticated-enough remote that you can program multiple key outputs into a single remote key press, and voila', you have a remote-control for a cMP! Brilliant idea! And much cheaper & easier than the path I was taking.
I have some IR-connected wireless keyboards on the way to try out.
2nd musing... I can recommend the daily thought-posts on various aspects of Audio and the Audio Business by Paul McGowen of PS Audio. You can see them here: http://www.pstracks.com/category/pauls-posts/ and there's a somewhere on that page link to subscribe to them as I do. In one interesting post a few weeks ago (http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/software-jitter/6180/) Paul was talking about 'software-induced jitter'. Hmmm... Where have I heard of that before? And the interesting thing was that from a hardware manufacturer's perspective, their solution was to increase the power supply count and reduce the potential for interaction between various sections of their transport's & DAC's circuits. Hmmmm... That suggests some JackWong-ish additional MoBo mods based on his separate-powering of the memory!
Finally, I have been very remiss in reporting the current status of my extreme Juli@ mods... And will stay that way for a bit, need to leave the house for awhile, but will try to get that update posted later today or tomorrow!
Thanks for all the work, all the answers, and all the fellowship!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Edits: 05/27/12Follow Ups:
This is possibly a stupid question, but in cmp can you use keyboard shortcuts to shutdown the PC? Does Alt+F4 work? I don't have one currently connected to try it out.
Everyone, thanks for your responses.Update on the IR-wireless keyboard / learning remote experience...
First, for a slimmed-down system, I now consider a remote keyboard a minimum for controlling the beast... If for nothing else, if you use the cPlay volume control like I do, it provides listening position volume (and balance) changes. I went with IR-wireless keyboards because of trying to control them with learning remotes, but you can go with an RF-wireless keyboard if you want. But a side-benefit of the IR-wireless is a little less RF pollution floating around in your listening room.
So that part is to me, an unqualified success. I've tried two different types of keyboards and the one I am using going forward is this one:
http://www.dsi-keyboards.com/solidtek-ir-wireless-keyboard-with-built-in-trackball-ack-571.aspx
The 573 model appears to be the same thing. DSI keyboards does not list it, but I've seen them on Ebay.
I also picked up a 2nd, used one from this manufacturer from Ebay that had a trackball instead of a pointer. Both will work with both receivers, so they haven't changed the protocol.
Two pluses to this one... First, you CAN get it from a retail source (IR-wireless keyboards are pretty rare nowadays). And second, it actually sounded better, even being separately powered, than the other I tried (also used from Ebay, a Sejin Earthwalk... Listing here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370584786218?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
I did not expect this at all... I had received the Sejin keyboard first and compared it to my wired keyboard. I couldn't hear an obvious difference, but over time, the system didn't excite me like it had before adding it. Still, I persisted, thinking it was something like weather or my moods (I was freshly recovering from knee surgery then). A few days later, both of the Solidtek ones arrived. I could immediately hear an improvement... In fact, I felt they sounded better than the wired keyboard! Weird. I'd guess it has something to do with digital noise fed back into the Mobo by the dongle, but in any case, I'm happy with the sound and not gonna spend much time fussing with it.
OTOH, success with the learning remote has been illusive, but not impossible. So far I've tried two brands of currently-available learning remotes that support macros (also known as 'Activities'), one from RCA and another from Logitech. The RCA one has learned two commands out of perhaps 30 tries and I can't get it to learn them consistently. The Logitech one did not learn any commands.
I've also tried a couple of software packages that emulate remotes on older handheld computers. One was TotalRemote by Griffin Software (who currently makes remote software for the Iphone, along with other handy toys for your smartphones) and it included a hardware dongle that fit into the handheld computer's headphone out jack. They provide this because even tho most of the older handhelds of the early-to-middle 2000's had IR ports, those ports were generally not suitable for consumer remote use.
I tried this software along with the dongle with Compaq IPAQ 3730 and 3740 handhelds, and also with an HP IPAQ 2210. It would memorize the keyboard commands, but the keyboard's dongle never recognized them or even saw them (the 'activity' LED did not flicker). Then the 2210 also had a consumer-level IR port and that was an option for outputting the commands from TotalRemote. This too did not work.
But the 2210 also included a piece of SW pre-installed call Nevo, from Unversal Electronics. That SW DOES both memorize the commands from the IR keyboard AND controlled the system through the dongle. SUCCESS!!! But at several prices... Not least of which is that to duplicate this, a person would need to purchase one of these HP IPAQ 2210's or a similar model with the Nevo SW (making sure that it ACTUALLY had the Nevo software on it before laying money down... I've seen reports that some firmware updates to these devices erased the Nevo SW). I've looked for and found a number of then IPAQ 2210's on US Ebay for $25-$90 USD. Some other IPAQ models also included this software... You can find more info on this Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPAQ
Do note that the one I have has the 2.0 version of the software. Some of other listed came with the older version and I can't guarantee that they'll work. Actually, I can't really guarantee that any ones but the 2100 will work... But the other models with Nevo 2.0 are probably worth a try.
The other cost is in command delivery speed. The Nevo SW is slow, at least on the 2210. This is not an issue with many commands, but where you need to transmit several-to-many sequential commands, it can feel very slow. Nevo transmits multiple commands at a rate just under one a second when you tap the command button on the screen multiple times. Macros, where you've recorded a sequence of multiple commands that are transmitted via one button tap are almost 2X slower. In comparison, the same commands from the keyboard are transmitted about as fast as you can key them... And I suspect that a hardware remote, if one can be found, will at least be faster than the SW solution.
So there IS currently a path to a fully-remote cMP via a learning remote and an IR-wireless keyboard. It is limited by the models of keyboard (for good sound) and models of remote (for ones that work). Both are a little pricer than I'd like... For example, the Solidtek keyboard new from DSI Keyboards is $40, while various other used IR wireless keyboards on Ebay can be 1/2 that. Then the handhelds with the Nevo SW will likely be at least $40 or more, once you get a new battery for the unit (any LiPo pack that came with one of these handhelds will be dead by now). Learning, macro/activity-capable hardware remotes can be had for under $20, the Logitech one I tried was a model 600 and just under $50. Then the current solution is also not as usable due to the limited command transmission rate. But it does work and is pretty darned cool!!!
I'm reaching out to the guy who told me about this technique to see if he knows of any other HW remotes that may work with the IR keyboards. Hopefully he will know or will be willing to let me send my spare keyboard to him so he can try any remotes he has on-hand (he's been doing HT installations for some time, he might have a variety of ones in his junk box). If anyone out there has a learning remote and wants to try it with the IR keyboard, but you don't want to buy one, I'm willing to send my spare out to people in North America to try.
And if anyone can locate any other brands of IR wireless keyboards, they'd be worth trying. But I'm staying away from the Sejin myself, based on my SQ results with it.
Gack, another ultra-long post. Gonna quit for the night!
Later!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Edits: 06/09/12
Hey Greg very interesting. Is the software on the remote? Is the keyboard also replaced? I get that it can be externally powered but don't understand how it works and it works with a JW slimmed done system wow....gotta get me one of those. Do you just replace existing remote/keyboard or do you have to start JW from the beginning so that its part of the system?
Edits: 06/10/12
Short answers... yes, the software is on the remote, the keyboard needs to be replaced with a IR-wireless one, and because it is a standard PS/2 keyboard, it doesn't require any changes to a JW slimmed down system. No need to redo the slimming... just replace the keyboard.
Now, for the gory details...
First, cPlay (and Windows) can be entirely controlled by keystroke commands. The cPlay keystroke commands (except 'k' & 'l' for balance, which were documented in the cPlay release that added these keystrokes) are documented online on the cPlay Guide page ( http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CPlay.Guide ). And I am sure that the stock windows keystroke commands are documented somewhere, but I've known the ones I needed for a long time, so I never tried to hunt the entire list down.
But to make it easy and put them all in one place, here are the keystroke commands you need to know:
Navigation in a list (of Genres, Performers, Recordings, or Tracks, depending on where you are):
Up Arrow = up one line
Down Arrow = down one line
Page Up = up to the top of the current or previous page
Page Down = down to the bottom of the current or next page
Home = up to the top of the list
End = down to the bottom of the list
Enter = open/play highlighted list item
Playback control:
p = toggle play / pause
. = stop
[ = Jump to Previous Track
] = Jump to Next Track
- = Skip Backwards
= = Skip Forwards
Esc = Exit playback (this works only when the cPlay window is not
minimized)
Alt - F4 = Exit playback (this works in all situations)
Alt+Space, then N = minimize window
Alt+Space, then R = restore (maximize) window
Volume/Balance/Phase:
Shift+Home = volume up (I hit these keys at the same time on the keyboard
Shift+End = volume down
; = toggle phase 0 / 180
k = balance right
l = balance left (These may be reversed, I'm not sure)
All of these are built into Windows, cMP, and cPlay and need no special programs to enable. They are there now. You don't need to redo the slimming process for this to work. All of these options work with the any PS/2 keyboard and standard PS/2 keyboard driver that is enabled on all super-slimmed cMP/cPlay machines. No additional software or drivers needed.
For us super-slimmed users with no USB, at the minimum you want to get a PS/2-connected wired keyboard. Although I've not checked, I believe these are still available new and definitely available in New-Old Stock and used. Also, many USB keyboards will work through a USB-PS/2 adapter.
But the bonus is setting up for remote command of your cMP/cPlay machine.
One way is just to get a wireless keyboard. If you just want to control it by entering keyboard commands, either an IR or RF (typically 900Mhz or 2.4Ghz) keyboard will work. The trick here is to find a PS/2-connected wireless keyboard. USB keyboards should work through a USB-PS/2 adapter, but I have not tried this. But IMHO, if you have a choice between IR or RF, you'll likely have a better chance at no SQ hit with IR. The only drawback to IR is that it is line-of-sight (where RF can be transmitted from the next room in most cases)
And since these are still PS/2-connected keyboards, they work with the driver already in your super-slimmed cMP/cPlay system.
Then the gold is in using a remote device to send the keyboard commands to the PS/2-connected, IR wireless keyboard's dongle. This provides you with a smaller, more convenient remote device AND keys that correspond to what you want to do, so you don't have to remember that you enter Shift+Home for Volume Up. You just hit the 'Volume Up' key on the remote! KEWL, huh?
And this is where I'm a little stuck so far. To do this, you need a learning, macro/activity-capable remote that will learn AND transmit the keyboard commands. With the keyboard that I've used, I've only found one remote that works... An HP IPAQ 2210 with the Nevo remote software. Other remotes MIGHT work with other keyboards... But since I only have two types and one sounds better in my system, I'm sticking with better sounding one. Other IPAQs with the Nevo 2.0 software will likely also work... See the link to the IPAQ Wiki in my previous where it lists those models. And the guy who turned me onto this trick said that it was something he had commonly done, but did suggest that he generally used higher-end learning remotes in these setups (which can range from $50-$500).
My suggestion for those who want to do this today is to get one of the keyboards I recommended in my previous post, setup a separate power PS/2 extension using batteries (I'd suggest disposable D-cells to start), and get one of the HP IPAQs that is listed as coming with the Nevo 2.0 software in the IPAQ Wiki. The IPAQ 2210 definitely works, but I strongly expect that any of the other models with the Nevo 2.0 software will work ok. If someone tries this, I'm happy to work with you to get your remote working right.
Then, if you want to help in the search for alternate remote, try other learning remotes to see if they can learn and then transmit the commands to these keyboards (I typically try the Skip Back '[' and Skip Forward ']' keys as my test cases as they are easy to program and hear the results if they work). Try any learning remotes you have around the house, any your friends might have, any you can purchase and easily return if they don't work. Again, I've tried both RCA (RCRN06GR) and Logitech (Harmony 600) remotes, along with the old Griffin Techologies Total Remote (which you won't find anyway). And there are other smartphone options today, such as Griffin Technologies' Iphone / Android phone remote devices.
Here's the pix of my remote screen:
Theob, I know this was a long answer to your questions, but I hope I've given the basic info that I left out in the beginning.
Later!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Hey Greg,
Nice post along with your earlier one!!
Crazy question. Why a keyboard over a mouse? Assuming that one can find an wireless IR mouse, is there a benefit of a keyboard vs the mouse, or a keyboard is just easier to find in IR??
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Several reasons I've moved towards keyboards instead of a mouse...1. As you suggested, IR mice seem to be rarer. One thing I pointed out that is worth repeating... All three of the keyboards I've gotten so far have built-in pointers... Two have trackballs, the other (the one I got new from DSI-Keyboards instead of used on Ebay) has an oversized pointing button. I don't plug them in and use them most of the time, but it is nice to have them in the same physical package. To use, insert the PS/2 mouse plug into the Mobo & reboot. In the super-slimmed setup I'm using, the mouse is needed for updating the settings in both cMP & cPlay... But all playback activities can be performed by a keyboard, as I laid out in the post above. Do note that the pointing devices in these keyboards are only 2-button ones, but that doesn't matter as much without cicsremote.
2. In a super-slimmed setup where you have removed cicsremote and disabled the ability to use it, a mouse is just a mouse and no longer provides shortcut commands that cicsremote facilitated (basically what cicsremote does is translate specific mouse button pushes & movement commands into keystokes to drive the cMP, cPlay, & Windows keyboard shortcuts). So while a mouse can be used remotely if it is an IR or RF wireless one, it doesn't transmit specific commands... You select list items and press buttons to make the system do what you want. That means that you have to leave the command buttons in the cPlay display... And the super-slim setup I have from Grant does not have these. It also puts a higher premium on being able to see the pointer and where it is on the screen relative to the list items or command buttons... Less of an issue with a keyboard, in many cases I can transmit most or all of the commands I want without having to see the screen. For example, I don't need to see the screen to minimize or maximize, start or end playback, raise or lower volume, or swap phase. With a mouse, I need to put the pointer on the right buttons or area on the screen to do any of these.
3. Related to the previous point, while you can use a learning remote (within limits) to send the discrete keyboard commands, that doesn't work for a mouse, since what it sends are not absolute discrete commands, but largely directions except when the mouse buttons are pressed. So the mouse is the only remote option... With the drawbacks above.
4. In my setup and with the mice and keyboards I tested, I got a SQ hit with all of the PS/2 mice I tried relative to any of the PS/2 keyboards I tried. I don't know why, but the newest mouse was the worse sounding, the older mouse was better, the PS/2-connected trackpad was best, but all were worse than any of the keyboards. When testing, each was used alone and each was separately powered.
The main thing that drove me to work through this was that the super-slimmed setup I'm using does not retain the playback control buttons on cPlay, so I had no way to change volume with just a mouse. I have a fairly 'hair-shirt', super transparent 5 step shunt attenuator using a Daven silver-contact switch with a nude Vishay in each channel as the series element. But five steps does not provide a lot of volume-setting finesse AND it sounds best with the volume all the way up anyway. So I generally listen with it set to the max volume & adjust the volume level with cPlay's volume control. When I started using this super-slimmed setup, I couldn't do that with only a mouse... Hence searching for & starting to use the keyboard commands and then searching for a way to do that both remotely AND easier than picking up a keyboard & keying the various keystrokes needed.
Later!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Edits: 06/10/12
Outstanding answer thanks!
Don't remember when JW mentioned which revision of the board was recommended. I suspect when he bought the board he got what was available.
Getting an adapter is not a problem if your heatsink has hole spacing that will fit the new footprint of the socket. If it doesn't I doubt you will be able to use an adapter anyway. If it does look at the mfg's website.
I had been using SATA DOM (128mb) with my previous FAT32 JW install. Over the weekend I converted to NTFS, and YES the micro-shell will work with NTFS just as Serge said it would BUT for some reason the same install I had made with an OCZ SSD will not work when copied onto the DOM. Same procedure I have used for several installs that were all FAT32 - but now with the NTFS install it says there is a disk problem. I deleted and created the partition a few times, used different sizes of partitions, can't remember the name of the thing with the numbers but I tried DEFAULT and 4096 and it made no difference. I can find nothing on the web that hints at a problem using NTFS and DOM SATA but I am having a problem.
I used the DOM just for the sake of eliminating clutter. I do not hear any difference. With the FAT32 installs I used a 50mB partition for both the OCZ and the DOM. But, if you are to use FAT32 you should not have any problem at all.
I went to NTFS after Serge mentioned how much memory FAT32 uses for the HDD. I have no idea what this means but I thought why not try it? I do not hear any difference and if there is one it is so minor that my ears have forgot what the old one "did". I still have a music HDD in FAT32 so I will eventually try them both but at this point I am not motivated to do it. The NTFS version sounds very good.
Taking the components off is actually pretty easy once you resign yourself to do it. One thing I did that gave me confidence is to makes some heatsink/shields with copper sheeting to guard components you do not want to remove. I used a MAKITA heatgun that had an 0.5 inch accessory nozzle made focusing the hear easier.
There is no question the H61 is superior. And it will make life much easier on your power supply.
Are you going with the single or dual core processor? That is the big decision. Also, update the BIOS. They recently added a new update.
Does your SATA DOM (128mb) take power from SATA plug?
Is anyone using a SATA DOM which take power from SATA and with what mobo?
I would rather power it myself than have it powered by the MB.
and how do you power a ps/2 mouse separately?
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Hey Greg what's a DOM? Glad to see you have done the jw system...really great sounding.
Although after some tweaking I got mine really sounding good then I went to see a Detroit Symphony concert sitting 2nd row center. The dynamics were so frightening I could not believe. Had to stop listening to my system for a few days to decompress. I am fully decompressed now loving my system once again.
For both Theob & Dawnrazor...
A DOM (Disk On Module) is a small solid-state harddrive in a form-factor designed to fit directly on either the SATA plug or the IDE plug on a motherboard. The IDE ones are powered via the 5v IDE pins. The SATA ones supposedly have 2 flavors... Ones that are powered via a separate connection & ones that are powered via pin 7 on the SATA port. I don't understand the latter... As best I can find, there is no power on the SATA port. However, they sell them, so I must be missing something.
Several people have considered or gone to them... rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com, jackwong96, Mihaylov, and Douwe01nl. From the little info I can glean, using a small DOM (128Mb or so) for the boot volume of a slimmed-XP cMP setup can yield sonic improvements. Some useful reading on the topic are in the following:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/10/109063.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=98676
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=101320
And the main source mentioned is:
http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd/listcat.asp?catid=satadomD150SV
Then for separate-powering a mouse or keyboard, the PS/2 connector provides +5v. Easiest way to separate-power them is:
1. Get a PS/2 extension cable.
2. Carefully strip back a couple of inches of the cable's outer insulation about 1" or so from the plug that goes into the motherboard.
3. Plug the cable into a powered motherboard.
4. Using a meter on DC voltage, carefully measure the red wire to ground on the PC (back of the case) to confirm it is the 5v wire. If it is not, measure the other color wires until you find the 5v wire. (Note that this is important... I used a PS/2-to-PS/2 power takeoff adapter I had from an old peripheral and it had the color code reversed!)
5. Also carefully measure the black wire to ground to confirm there is no voltage on it, then use the meter to confirm continuity between the black wire and ground on the PC.
6. Once you have the 5v wire and ground wire, cut the 5v wire and connect a 5v source to the side that will go to the mouse or keyboard. Easiest is a battery-holder for 4 D-cell batteries... Typically keyboards & mice are pretty low-power devices and while I've not tried them, 4 D-cells should last awhile... And likely be a pretty good sounding power source. Connect the ground of the 5v source to the ground wire, but do not cut it. Just carefully strip back some insulation. (I use the DIY 5v DC power supply that used to power my USB ports for the wireless mouse & screen's touchpad.)
7. Insulate your connections. These are low-voltage, so good electrical tape works as does heatshrink.
Note that generally the keyboard or mouse has to be plugged in and powered when you boot the PC for it to recognize the device.
I've found small SQ improvements by separate-powering either or both my mouse or keyboard. But I got larger improvements selecting mice... for me none was best, any mouse was worse than none, separate-powered or not.
I tried three mice, a new-ish PS/2 with a bright blue LED, an old USB via a USB-PS/2 adapter, and an old PS/2-connected trackpad. The new mouse sounded the worse, the trackpad was best... But still better was to just use the keyboard and leave the mouse disconnected
Note that I did NOT try various keyboards for SQ impact, but suspect the simpler, older ones will work better here too.
More later!
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. Theob, yah, listening to live music will ruin your stereo for you for awhile UNLESS you have a MUCH better stereo than most of us have (or can afford!)
Everything matters!
Thanks Greg
Thanks Greg,
DUH that all makes sense. I thought you were doing it at the mobo not at a cable.
One thing just to check my reading, is that the ground is still connected to the computer, you are just tapping in from the new psu right??
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Dawnrazor,
Yes, you need to keep a ground connection between the mouse/keyboard and the motherboard AND also connect the 5v supply to that ground connection. The only connection you are cutting is between the motherboard 5v connection to the mouse/keyboard in the extension cable and connecting the mouse/keyboard side to the 5v supply.
Of course, if you wanted to get REAL fancy, you could setup an optical or GMR isolator on the data lines and break the ground. But I REALLY don't think that would be worthwhile. (Don't think I haven't considered it, tho!)
Later!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
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