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In Reply to: RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player posted by cics on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
Hi to all!
I and my friend have built audio transports cMP2 advanced. We are very happy with sound quality. My friend's cMP2 has turned out more uncompromising.
- OS - Windows XP SP2 Pro,
- Case Zalman HD160XT Plus
- Processor Intel E7400,
- Processor cooler Thermalright SI128SE (without the fan),
- System board Gigabyte GA-G31M-ЕS2L,
- Memory Kingston HyperX 1GB,
- PS completely linear with a separate supply (up to the toroidal transformer) for the processor (socket P4 +12 V), for system board (socket P24 - here a separate supply for each power bus: +3.3 V, +5 V, +12 V and -12 V up to a transformer winding), for a sound card +5 V, for a hdd and lcd screen
- HDD (OS and audiofiles) SSD 500 Gb SATA-II OCZ Colossus Series,
- Sound card ESI Juli (the digital part is used only, analogue part is disconnected) with external precision clock LClock XO 3 on frequency 24,5760 MHz, BNC socket (spdif out) and additional filtering capacitors Elna Cerafine,
-Turning off lcd screen by means of the big knob on the forward panel cases (button) and a small board in psu.
I used the alternative decision of PSU is the so-called hybrid supply, which basis PicoPSU 120, providing all necessary voltages for socket P24 (P20) from entrance voltage +12 V.
All photos can be looked in My gallery.
Many thanks cics and to all participants of this forum for project development cMP2!
Maybe someone can help me about my question.
Is it possible to change BOTH crystals with 2 (LClock XO 3 )??
Did anyone try this?
I understand that you or your friend are using the Zalman HD 160XT Plus. How
do you power up the LCD screen using separate linear power supply?
Currently I am still using the cable supplied by Zalman which is the 4 cables (red, yellow, purple, & black) connected to the P24 connector.
Do we need the 5VSB cable for the screen?
"Do we need the 5VSB cable for the screen?" - Yes.
"How do you power up the LCD screen using separate linear power supply?" - LCD screen supplied by fourth module of the linear PSU through four wires: red and purple are connected to +5 V fourth module's output, yellow - to +12 V, black - to the ground.
Congratulation ,it is new achievement in development of cMP.
I build cMP with linear/battery PSU and thought about clock
improvement for Juli@, but it was difficult task for me.
It is greate news , that you with yours friend did it ,
showing a path for another.
1. Could you please show a picture or explain how you did it.
( I read on web , but not particularly about Juli@ )
2. About PSU- did you mesured noise level at P24 , 20mm from pin
or closely , using Oscilloscope?
Thanks for congratulation.
1.The picture will be later.
2.I do not have such possibility unfortunately because I do not have oscilloscope at home.
Thanks for respond , will wait for picture.
Here photos. My friend used LClock XO3 24,5760 MHz (24,5760/512=0.048 MHz) because the mode output 96 KHz is used in cPlay.
Just to check if GND of LClock XO3 feed cable is soldered to Pin 2 of the 10 pins header.
Hi Mihaylov !
How do you think , can I use LClock XO3 45,158 Mhz and Juli@ will support it for 176.4 output, and if yes, will it improve shape of an impulse ? My oscilloscope show good impulse shape up to 96KHz .
Picture below 176.4KHz output. Thanks, Gene.
You should use LClock XO3 22,5792 MHz for the output frequencies multiple 44.1 KHz (44.1, 88.2, 176.4) and mount it on the Juli's board instead of the oscillator Х1.
I have not understood in what place you looked the oscillogram.
The oscillogram in output LClock XO3 looks so (I checked it).
If you are going to buy LClock XO3 pay attention to remarkable possibility of its usage (see the link).
It was taken from BNC Juli@ , this pictute show 41.1 KHz. As you can see, shape of an impulse in picture difrent. Any suggestion. Thanks, Gene.
Thanks Mihaylov, one of the best explanation i have seen.
Obviously allot of hard work went into this, great implimentation. Look forward to hearing more.
Firstly, Mihaylov (and friend) congratulations on your magnificent implementations!
This is a very elegant linear PSU (4 toroidal transformers), 270º view:
- Would this model be the "uncompromising" (i.e. better sound) then the silver one built using hybrid PS?
- How exactly did you connect P20/P24 using this setup? Another picture?
- How do you start the mobo?
- Can this be packaged into a normal ATX PSU frame (note length is very flexible)? I think there's a handsome market for such a high quality PSU offering at least 2 AC inputs (P24 & all else).
- Unrelated to PSU: can you elaborate more on the XO used for Juli@?
Thanks for congratulations, cics!
1. Unfortunately there was no possibility to compare these two cMP2 directly yet. (About testing cMP2 later)
2. Connector P24: pins 1,2,12,13: +3.3 V; pins 4,6,8,9,21,22,23: +5 V; pin 10,11: +12 V; pin 14: -12V; pins 3,5,7,15,17,18,19,24: ground. I have placed two more photos in My gallery.
3. Switch on the mains switch on the zalman's rear panel (see IMG_0628_ in My gallery), push the power button on the zalman's front panel, that's all!
4. No, imho. Because the linear psu has low efficiency in comparison with the switched-mode psu and produce a lot of heat, hence it requires adequate cooling.
Seen the additional pics and your writeup on comparisons & improvements is useful.
I see P24's purple wire is ignored - only power lines (3, 5, 12 & -12) are connected. -5V is ignored. Actually based on your pin descriptions, you have implemented a P20 connector which should work. ATX 2.x P24 layout:
There's 100% match after renumbering pins 13-24 to 11-20 in above diagram: pins 1,2,11: +3.3 V; pins 4,6,8,19,20: +5 V; pin 10: +12 V; pin 12: -12V; pins 3,5,7,13,15,16,17: ground. Here's P20 layout:
How is it that you don't need a power up sequence? Pin 8?
I think one has to settle with an external PSU - perhaps its better. I would prefer the unit with 2 AC inlets (1 for P20 another for the rest including P4). Can one have this design produced in limited numbers?
About pinout of connector P24 - I certainly was mistaken and have already corrected my previous message. Thanks, cics!
-5V is ignored - yes!
+5V Standby isn't ignored
"How is it that you don't need a power up sequence? Pin 8?" - I don't know, but it's OK! All voltages (pins 1,2,12,13: +3.3 V; pins 4,6,8,9,21,22,23: +5 V; pin 10,11: +12 V; pin 14:-12V; pins 3,5,7,15,17,18,19,24: ground) are supplied to the connector P24 SIMULTANEOUSLY by mains switch and THEN push the power button on the zalman's front panel.
"any way of producing that PSU for others?" - I am going to upload the documentation which will help to make such PSU.
"unit with 2 AC inlets (1 for P20 another for the rest including P4)" - Sorry, but I havn't understood that you meant: two ac inlets for two power cables ?
Would you please be so kind to give us the "shopping list" for your P24 and P4 PSUs?
Also - I am not sure if cics was reffering to that in his question - there is a particular switching on sequence for motherboard and cpu. How did you deal with that?
Could you please let us know about your listening experience with this system, perhaps compared to another cMP2 system you may have had before.
Thanks a lot and congratulations again!
Unfortunately now there is no time to answer all questions (I will try to make it during week-end).
About "particular switching on sequence for motherboard and cpu". All voltages on P24 and P4 are supplyed simultaneously by switching on the mains switch on the rear panel of the case (see previous my message, item 3).
It would be great if, together with the "shopping list", you could provide us with a diagram/layout of the elctronics. Of course, if you are willing to make it public, like cics has for his project.
I have uploaded the document. See link below.
Many thanks to Mihaylov for sharing the design of the linear PSU. Excellent write-up, but on page 6 there are a sentence in Russian I presume. Can you please translate?
Took quite a few attempts before successfully downloading the file.
I second smicyta's request about Russian sentence on page 6 as it is about the fourth important psu for services like HD, monitor, usb...
Looking at the PDF I can only renew my congratulations and thanks.
I am sorry. I hurried up and has forgotten to remove the Russian text from the final version of the document. The Russian text can be ignored, because it is translated in the following sentence.
I want to add this to our cMP² site. Problem is its size at 24.8MB - compressing doesn't help. Only way would be to use smaller pics with lower res.
There will be 2 sections added under "Advanced":
1. Pure linear PSU (as per pdf)
2. Replacing Juli@'s XO
I have uploaded the compressed version of this document (3895 KB). The quality has not degraded almost.
Tried pdf, html, but for some reason it has "errors converting document"
Anyone else not getting it or is it just me??
Thanks guys I got it. The LINK didnt work, but the addess did it that makes sense.
Click link, click free user then wait for timeout, click download, click save and save to file on PC worked for me on home and office PC.
Thank you for sharing this info. Haven't had a chance to go through it but will. Maybe cics will host it on his site.
Thanks to both of ya'll.
Here is the sound test of cMP2.(Excuse me for probably bad English)
Сontrol sound section:
- A control source of a sound: cd transport CEC TL5100 (thoroughly upgraded in a power supply: two toroidal transformers, some voltage stabilizers are added, electrolytic capacitors are replaced with capacitors Black Gate of different series, established the copper screens separating psu, the mechanism, the display and the main board from each other)
- DAC: Musical Fidelity A3.24 (output capacitors are replaced with BG NX)
- Integrated push-pull tube amplifier ART AUDIO LAB m25 (Tula, Russia) (the absolute upgrade is made: external psu on two kenotrons, supplying input and output cascades from separate windings of the transformer; wiring of an anode supply and input circuits of the amplifier by silver wire Jensen; all sockets WBT; a regulator of loudness ALPS Blue Velvet; capacitors BG, Jensen, Elna Cerafine; resistors in grids of input tubes Riken Ohm; four-stage adjustment of feedback depth is made)
- Loudspeakers: Klipsch La Scala 2 (a small upgrade: all "automobile" demountable connections in internal wiring are replaced with solderings)
- Cables: power: self-made, made of an inexpensive acoustic cable; digital coaxial: Supra Trico 1.0m (BNC - BNC); interconnect: Ortofon Reference 8N-1m; acoustic: Nordost Blue Heaven - 2m.
- cMP2: "black case" configuration but with hdd 1000ГБ Western Digital Caviar Green
1. Sounding сМР2 with computer psu (Antec EarthWatts EA 430W)
Sound is dry, etched that is called with the "sand", abounding with the false detailed elaboration distracting from perception of a musical material. A sound is superficial, as though deprived of density. On difficult fragments of products of classical music sounding frequently formal, laid-back. An involvement into listening is low, in a consequence of that listening classical music is simply uninteresting. As a whole the control source beat сМР2 though lost to the last on some parametres, such as the resolution and depth of a stage.
2. Sounding сМР2 with completely linear psu.
The occurred changes in a sound can be characterised as critical: the sound from the cheap ("computer") has changed in the costly, close to an analogue source on character of sounding . Sounding became more dense, perceived, the "roughness" and "sand" have practically disappeared, was showed timbre saturation, "beauty" of music. The involvement into listening has considerably raised, the perception of a musical material was facilitated. At high levels of loudness fatigue from long listening is small.
3. Sounding сМР2 with completely linear psu and a precision external clock.
The changes which have occurred in sounding in comparison with item 2 to describe difficult enough. On the one hand this changes seem small, with another - strongly enough change a picture of perception of music. Such audiophile characteristics as localization, resolution, dynamics have certainly improved, but it seemed, what not this main thing in the occurred change of a sound.
The sound became, if so it is possible to be expressed, crystal, but not in sense firm and cold, and even more transparent, harmonious, "tasty". In general it is much easier to hear all it in real sounding, than to describe in the standard terms. The impression was made, that other sound-reproducing path slightly limits source possibilities. It is necessary to notice, that cMP2 became very critical to quality of supply mains voltage. I attribute it to the increased resolution and a transparency of a source of a sound. Replacement of a power cable on good firm one (Cardas Audio Golden Reference) cardinally improves all picture of sounding. In this case it is possible to speak about a power cable as very important part of an sound section. The source transparency is that, that allows to test easily quality of mains switches,preventers, filters, plugs, sockets etc.
cMP2 (last update) beat the control source of a sound practically at all items. Some nuances of sound reproduction which are present at both sources and are undescribed in the given test, concern the category personal listener's preferences.
to be continued...
4. Sounding сМР2 with completely linear psu, precision external clock and SSD 500 Gb SATA-II OCZ Colossus Series.
The changes in a sound:
- The resolution at silent levels of a sound has increased. It seems that a bass became less, but the resolution of a bass and its quality has sharply increased, it became accurately delineated, the stereo effect in a bass is easily distinguished. The nuances of mastery are more clearly shown.
- The advantages of SSD (in comparison with HDD) are shown more considerably on more difficult musical material though are appreciable on anyone.
Very awesome system and very articulate description!! Your english is superb, congratulations.
did you make a comparison of pure linear psu with external clock vs CEC TL5100?
Which is better?
your gallery does not seem to work.
I am looking forward seeing your pics on this interesting project.
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