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cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO

41.183.0.21
Posted on May 5, 2008 at 12:31:58
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
cPlay

The open source high-end audio player using ASIO

May 2008

cPlay delivers high quality audio playback using ASIO 2. Playback is achieved using any ASIO compatible soundcard. cPlay is a minimalist audio player using the latest high quality SRC resampler (Best Sinc SNR 145.68db or 121.33db) or SoX (VHQ or HQ). cPlay's design offers state-of-the-art ASIO-only playback and caters for touch screen users. Installation, setup and use is easy. cPlay is built in c/c++ and operates on Windows XP SP2 Professional (32 bit).

FEATURES

  1. Resampling is sourced from LibSampleRate (version 0.1.5) and SoX 14.2.0 under GNU GPL license. LibSampleRate is aka SRC (Secret Rabbit Code) and supersedes the version as used in foobar2000. Best Sinc converter now offers a SNR of 145.68db or 121.33db (versus 97db). SoX VHQ offers better than 170db SNR. Resampling is bypassed when input rate matches output.

  2. Supports Steinberg's excellent ASIO 2 and is backward compatible to prior ASIO versions (as required by ASIO drivers).

  3. Offers high quality 64 bit double precision digital volume control (in 0.5db steps). This can be bypassed.

  4. Playback is achieved through .cue, .wav or .flac files. cPlay loads entire .wav or .flac (decoded) into RAM before starting. Playback is done directly from cPlay's internal buffer. Cue playback requires .cue files as created by EAC (single or multi file standard).

  5. Ensures efficient CPU resource utilization allowing for low specification processors or high levels of upsampling. This means CPUs can be underclocked / undervolted.

  6. Supports up to 3 ASIO soundcards with each having up to 100 output channels.

  7. Advanced optimizations are applied (if available from ASIO driver) during playback.

  8. Best results achieved when using cMP (i.e. cMP˛). This allows for low level Windows optimizations. Use cMP release 1.0 final or later as this allows for bypassing RAM load in cMP (set RAM Load in cMP Settings to No) otherwise wav file is RAM loaded twice. cPlay allows for both svchost and lsass to be suspended during playback thus reducing the Windows footprint. Only exception is EMU's ASIO driver which requires both (svchost and lsass) to be operational. Set cMP's Optimize setting to Critical.

  9. Full remote control is achieved with cMP: offering volume control, track navigation, next/previous and stop/eject via (wireless) mouse.

USER MANUAL

Visit cMP˛ website (http://www.cicsMemoryPlayer.com) for more details and setup.

Screen Shot




GETTING STARTED

Download cPlay's installer here (1.3MB). Installation and startup is straight forward.

If you don't have an ASIO compatible soundcard, use ASIO4ALL. Note that ASIO4ALL does not support channel mapping (use default) and rarely handles above 48k sample rate.

Your feedback will help guide cPlay's future development. Source code (4.1MB) is available via email.

 

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Sounds different than Foobar 0.83, posted on May 5, 2008 at 14:55:50
Kiep


 
On a non-cmP desktop 2Ghz, 2GB with SB X-Fi using ASIO:

More forward, wider images, vocals seem to be a bit fuzzier than glossy clean Foobar. Tighter bass, good timing, pretty good overall

My 2c.

 

cPlay 1.0b2 released, posted on May 5, 2008 at 21:48:20
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Kiep - thanks for the feedback. Also received good feedback via email. Please try version 1.0b2 (at same link provided or below).

If you have 1.0b1 installed - remove it before installing 1.0b2

 

RE: cPlay 1.0b2 released, posted on May 6, 2008 at 03:02:14
artcheng@netvigator.com
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: November 14, 2003
 Cics,

Thanks once again for your wonderful program. Seems it comes with a volumne control as well. Can you share with us which bit depth is the volyme control work in?

 

RE: cPlay 1.0b2 released, posted on May 6, 2008 at 04:24:57
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 It would be good if the Player can support 32 bit files. I cannot play any of the downloaded or converted (using Audition) hirez files.

Perhaps you will also consider a drag and drop facilty to enable entire folders in .wav to be loaded and played.

 

Any chance of a polarity switch?, posted on May 6, 2008 at 08:28:42
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

I could not wait to get home and install these (and now I see a new version is already available).

As one settles in you could hear much finer resolution of the high frequencies. I wonder if this is the improved signal to noise ratio at work. All that was good before seems to have remained with worthwhile improvements elsewhere.

Could not turn it off until one-thirty (damn it!)

I remember when I asked you before about polarity inversion you said it would have to be done within FOOBAR. Well, now that you have removed FOOBAR (or I am assuming such) would it be possible for YOU to introduce this into cPLAY? Once one gets used to listening for the effect you miss not being able to effect it. It would be icing on the cAKE!

THANKS VERY MUCH for your efforts!!! I thoroughly enjoyed listening to music last night. I can't wait to see if I can hear a differnence with the latest cPLAY.

Rick McInnis

 

Few other things to add, posted on May 6, 2008 at 08:51:15
Kiep


 
File Browse/Select from the player (or drag'n'drop if it is not too hard to do)

Scroll for volume

Playback progress bar

Other than that it sounds really good. I actually like the 96k upsampling on it.

 

RE: Sounds different than Foobar 0.83, posted on May 6, 2008 at 11:19:22
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 Kiep:

At first when I a/b'd (sighted/not blind) these two, I thought they were pretty darned close if not the same. Then I picked some REALLY familiar test tracks and strange things started happening.

I could swear the Cplayer has a differenting sounding top-end. It is very detailed, and very succinct - not harsh or edgdy, just very well defined. Then when I go back to Foobar, I can't tell whether there is *less* detail or just a slight droop in the top end - but there is a difference. I want to see if I can pick it out blind...

I have a hard time believing this is all in my head, but I would *really* love to start measuring soon to see if it is or not. F/R is measurable, but high-end detail is another matter.

Strangely, I cannot play back .wav sweep files on cplay to do bit-comarisons between it and Foobar. I will talk to Cics about this issue.

I do like the idea of a minimalist ASIO player with switchable built in SRC!! I am *not* interesting in *cool* looking GUI's over SQ!

Cheers,
Presto

 

Question about sweep files, posted on May 6, 2008 at 11:23:01
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 Cics:

I wanted to play some sweep files to do some checking on the output of the player... but for some reason a sweep generated by NCH tone generator results in a "can't play" error (something to do with data block not found or information not found). The sweep files play in all other players I have.

Anyways, have you encountered this? *Or*, is there a reason why this is?

Just wondering...

Cool concept! Will be following this one for sure! Nice work! Thanks!

Cheers,
Presto

 

Its cPlay..., posted on May 6, 2008 at 13:23:31
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 I'll look at what NCH is generating - there's a few different WAV structures in use. cPlay does strict validations here.

 

RE: Few other things to add, posted on May 6, 2008 at 13:31:19
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 For 1.0b3 I have:

  1. Phase 0/180 (can change this remotely using mouse button 4 with cMP, otherwise use keyboard ';' key)
  2. Playback order (repeat, stop, random)
  3. Minor refinements (slightly less UI thread interference)


It's the last point above that makes things like progress bars a bad idea. File selection and Volume Scroll is a possibility - nice-to-have for now. Next is FLAC.

 

It's coming in 1.0b3, posted on May 6, 2008 at 13:41:33
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 See here on 1.0b3

Juli@ in your setup would work very well - notice CPU load at 192k is much lower than before (~45% vs ~70%). You should underclock/undervolt that E1200 processor - no need for extra voltage at 192k! Also try setting RAM to 200MHz, disable '1T CMD Support' and keep DRAM Timing to 'Auto by SPD'.

 

Do you have a link on those 32 bit files?, posted on May 6, 2008 at 13:47:36
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 cPlay is limited to 2GB RAM load (Windows limitation). Even so, it could play in excess of 40 minutes (assuming 96k). Definitely worth looking into.

Drag n drop stuff is nice-to-have for now.

 

VC is 64 bits double precision (real numbers), posted on May 6, 2008 at 13:51:26
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 In my setup, I can't hear any loss of resolution at low volume - there's amazing ambient information even at -30db.

 

RE: Its cPlay..., posted on May 6, 2008 at 16:52:58
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 Hey - I have other sweep file generators I can try...

I will try those as well!

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO, posted on May 6, 2008 at 18:56:19
Pedja
Manufacturer

Posts: 169
Joined: January 31, 2002
 Cics,

I have read the PDFs you've been putting together before and admittedly I've never liked them at all: way too many arbitrary statements.

But this software is interesting effort. Putting its interface aside (frankly, it is below any criterion anyhow) this will be very welcome contribution which will help understanding how particular use of computer resources may change the things soundwise.

And, comparing to the usual Foobar2000, it sounds... mellow.

(And before anyone comes with such an explanation, let me warn you on time: it has nothing to do with jitter. Yes, I checked it.)

Keep up the good work.

Pedja

 

Won't work for me, posted on May 6, 2008 at 21:31:57
JamesB
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Location: Wellington
Joined: December 26, 2000
 Hi,

I thought I'd give this a try, but I can't get it to play with a M-Audio Transit driver. When clicking on a WAV file, there is a diagnostic message that is displayed really quickly before the program exits, I had to hit 'print screen' pretty smartly to capture it. It might not be working because I'm using Windows 2000, or it might be related to the errors shown in the diagnostic message...

-- James :)






 

RE: Do you have a link on those 32 bit files?, posted on May 6, 2008 at 21:59:25
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 Actually it seems to be the 0404usb with 32 bit file structure. I opened a 24/96 .wav file and got the following fault report

ASIO Driver Initializing...
Name (ASIO E-MU 0404 | USB)
Player ASIO version (2)
Driver ASIO version (2)
Message (No ASIO Driver Error)
Channels (inputs: 4, outputs: 4)
Buffer details (min: 192, max: 48000, preferred: 960, granularity: 96)
Sample rate ( 96000)
Output Ready? Supported
Preparing buffers... successful
Latencies (input: 1096, output: 1384)

ASIO Driver initialized.

DSP starting...
DSP Buffer (30720 samples or 320ms/ 3.1/ 100.0) allocation successful

ASIO Driver starting...
Input 1 [ Analog IN A ] Active (0) type (32bits)
Input 2 [ Analog IN B ] Active (0) type (32bits)
Input 3 [ SPDIF IN L ] Active (0) type (32bits)
Input 4 [ SPDIF IN R ] Active (0) type (32bits)

Output 1 [ Analog OUT ] Active (1) type (32bits) > Left Channel
Output 2 [ Analog OUT ] Active (1) type (32bits) > Right Channel
Output 3 [ SPDIF OUT ] Active (0) type (32bits)
Output 4 [ SPDIF OUT ] Active (0) type (32bits)

ASIO started successfully.

Processing CD [D:\Music\96k2LBeethoven\2L49SACD96k.wav]...
Wav file size = 328MB

Wav file structure is NOT supported.
Genre = Unknown
Artist = D:\Music\96k2LBeethoven\2L49SACD96k.wav
Album = WAV
Wav file = D:\Music\96k2LBeethoven\2L49SACD96k.wav

You can get hirez files from 2L.no, Linn and DVD-V 192k rips.

 

Good catch! Your soundcard is using 16 bits in 32 bit words, posted on May 7, 2008 at 04:25:45
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 cPlay only supports pure 32 bit ASIO soundcards. ASIO standard defines a great many input and output formats. Trying to accommodate all would compromise quality. So I decided to stick with the most common standard - 32 bits.

Never thought I would see that! A workaround would be to use ASIO4ALL which would then KS to M-Audio. ASIO4ALL should also give you better latency to 64 samples. Never tested cPlay on Windows 2000 - there may be issues here (but unlikely).

 

"...on time: it has nothing to do with jitter." If not Jitter than what?, posted on May 7, 2008 at 04:51:16
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 .

 

RE: Sounds different than Foobar 0.83, posted on May 7, 2008 at 11:27:03
Riboge


 
I hear what seems a quite similar difference between the two and would also be curious whether this is heard by others and whether it is a quality or just a fr difference in the high end.

 

cPlay 1.0b3 released, posted on May 7, 2008 at 12:39:49
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Change Log:

  1. Phase 0/180 setting using keyboard ';' key or mouse button 4 (cMP). Previous use for ';' was Stop. Phase defaults to 0 on start. Stop key now set to '.'
  2. Playback order option added: 'Repeat', 'Stop' or 'Random'. Changes in this option take immediate effect. That is, if set to random, cPlay selects tracks randomly (including next / previous)
  3. Minor refinements
  4. Fix for NCH tone files
  5. Fix for ASIO output format support message


Presto - NCH now works and you should be able to do sweep tests

Rick / Tony - Can you test Phase 0 / 180?

Fred - I suspect your problem is also related to the NCH fix. Let me know if 1.0b3 fixes it


If you have a prior version installed - remove it before installing 1.0b3. Note in 'Add or Remove Programs' previous versions had same 'cPlay 1.0b1' name - its a labeling error.

 

RE: Sounds different than Foobar 0.83, posted on May 7, 2008 at 12:50:38
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 Riboge:

Yes, I agree that something seems quite different, especially on the high end and I cannot tell if it is *different* or if there is just some sort of level difference. I've done a fair amount of l-padding on tweeter and have worked with zobels, etc. to know what a level difference "sounds like", and for some reason I *feel* there is more to this perceived difference than just a hf lift or shelf. The high-end details just seem to be more succinct (more defined, clear cut) with cplayer. It could be "new toy bias factor" too! Gotta watch out for this! When I get a new toy, the "hope" it will be a GOOD SOUNDING new toy can influence my judgement. I mean, do we ever try something new hoping it will SUCK? Not really!

But whatever is hitting the DACS on my PCI card is seemingly not the same coming from Foobar 0.8.3 and Cplayer. It makes one wish to have the test equipment to get eye patterns from each signal before they hit the DACS.

Could playing 100% from memory be a reason?

This is a facinating new toy for us to experiment with! :o)

Cheers,
Presto

 

Right on, Cics!, posted on May 7, 2008 at 15:09:46
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 Cics:

Hey thanks. No biggies on the NCH thing - I just used a sweep from a different sweep generator. But hey - it's a nice perk for those who bought and paid for NCH.

Can't WAIT to get home and hit that ";" button during playback and see if we can hear some absolute polarity changes! ;)

Thanks again! Nice work!

Cheers,
Presto

 

I think "elapsed / total length" display is enough myself (nt), posted on May 7, 2008 at 15:39:57
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 nt

 

RE: "...on time: it has nothing to do with jitter." If not Jitter than what?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 02:19:53
Pedja
Manufacturer

Posts: 169
Joined: January 31, 2002
 That's something we have to find out yet. Apparently the way the software engages computer resources does implicates particular subjective sonic effects. And to my knowledge your software is unique, placing the whole file into memory.

As for the jitter, I've never found software makes any difference in this regard, unless one screws up something, of course.

Different PCs may and do have different jitter performance but it is hardware related.

Pedja

 

RE: Good catch! Your soundcard is using 16 bits in 32 bit words, posted on May 8, 2008 at 03:27:10
JamesB
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Location: Wellington
Joined: December 26, 2000
 Yep, works fine with ASIO4ALL. Sounds pretty good actually but I don't like having to click on the files to play them. Do you know of any software that can provide a front end for a music library but invoke cPlay as the player?

Thanks, and good work...

-- James :)

 

RE: Sounds different than Foobar 0.83, posted on May 8, 2008 at 08:27:56
Kiepu
Audiophile

Posts: 192
Location: Canada
Joined: March 16, 2001
 I think this software deserves as much attention as Foobar.
The thing I pay attention to is timing which imo is what either makes or breaks the digital playback. The cPlay is quite good in this regard and I would say probably a bit better than Foobar (in my short experience).

There are areas where things can get improved, focus is one of them, I still hear some haze on vocals, not sure if this is my setup (headphones) or something else. As someone pointed out there is still some mellowness which I don't think is part of the recordings.

Exciting tool/toy nevertheless and it will be interesting to see how it develops.

 

Should we delete FOOBAR?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 09:23:03
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

Is there any reason to retain FOOBAR now?

Please advise,

Rick McInnis

 

Other players necessary until we go to 64 bit PCs, posted on May 8, 2008 at 09:43:38
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 cPlay is a memory player. As such, it can only play music that fits in RAM. Even if I were to expand my RAM memory to the maximum addressable by my 32 bit processor I would still not have enough memory to hold some of my hi-res albums. Until our PCs and cPlay go to 64 bit operating systems other players will still be necessary at least for some music.

For example, the Linn studio master St. Matthew Passion occupies 4.76 GB after FLAC files has been expanded to WAV (24 bits at 88.2 kHz). Many of the 101 tracks play continuously track to track, making the player's job harder. Foobar2000 plays the separate files correctly. cPlay does not, because it has to load a WAV file into memory before it can play it.

Tony Lauck

"Perception, inference and authority are the valid sources of knowledge" - P.R. Sarkar

 

Ok you have convinced me to try..., posted on May 8, 2008 at 10:05:43
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...I currently use j river with asio4all. Should I just download cplay and will that bring asio et all along with it? Another question: I have utilized some of your ideas in CMP but not all, will cplay still be better than where I'm at? Also in the User Manual:

*************************************************************************

Main screen offers essentials only. Large buttons and fonts makes for excellent touch screen friendliness and operating from a distance. cPlay's desktop icon is used for initial setup. Thereafter, play audio as follows:


Select .cue or .wav file from File Explorer (double-click on .cue starts cPlay)

Select 'Open With' (right-click on file to be played)

Select cicsPlay
Playing audio with RealTime priority:


Select .cue or .wav file from File Explorer

Select 'Open With' (right-click on file to be played)

Locate and select 'cicsPlay.bat' where cPlay was installed (default is 'c:\program files\cics Play'). Note: If you did NOT use the default install folder, edit cicsPlay.bat and correct the path. Hint: use command 'dir *.* /x' to identify folder's DOS shortname.


**************************************************************************





What does '...Select .cue or .wav file from File Explorer...' mean? Can't I just go to my music, select the files and then open with cplay?

Also what does

***********************************************************************

'...Locate and select 'cicsPlay.bat' where cPlay was installed (default is 'c:\program files\cics Play'). Note: If you did NOT use the default install folder, edit cicsPlay.bat and correct the path. Hint: use command 'dir *.* /x' to identify folder's DOS shortname...'

***********************************************************************




mean? Just say a little more about this to clarify. I'm not sure what to do here.





 

RE: "...on time: it has nothing to do with jitter." If not Jitter than what?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 10:56:32
multiblitz


 
...so this means we need to compare the sound of motherboards ?

 

RE: cPlay 1.0b3 released, posted on May 8, 2008 at 11:59:59
Multiblitz


 
Ok, I have just installed it...not listened yet to it, but what is very promising:

Your player is doing real multithreadening, while foobar / SRC in foobar is not.

Do you remenber my comment, that SRC sound poorer than no upsampling in foobar ?

A theory one could have is: I am using a e2180 and I have power-mamgt on...so it really runs with no oversampling at 1200mhz, with oversampling it switches to higher frequencies !

...in foobar. with your player it stays at 1200 mhz even if I upsample to 192khz. So, tommorow I will do my listening and report back...

 

Is there a way to decrease font size ?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 12:07:23
Mutliblitz


 
...I have here a 12" touch-screen and the font is too big for me and I would love to see all tracks on one page with no need to scroll...

 

Not yet... will consider later., posted on May 8, 2008 at 13:22:38
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 UI is a very low priority for now. Next on the list is flac.

 

RE: Ok you have convinced me to try..., posted on May 8, 2008 at 13:31:15
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
...I currently use j river with asio4all. Should I just download cplay and will that bring asio et all along with it? Another question: I have utilized some of your ideas in CMP but not all, will cplay still be better than where I'm at?

Yes - cPlay will work with your current ASIO4ALL setup.
Yes - cPlay will work with whatever optimizations you've done from cMP.
What does '...Select .cue or .wav file from File Explorer...' mean? Can't I just go to my music, select the files and then open with cplay?

Yes - it means exactly that.
'...Locate and select 'cicsPlay.bat' where cPlay was installed (default is 'c:\program files\cics Play'). Note: If you did NOT use the default install folder, edit cicsPlay.bat and correct the path. Hint: use command 'dir *.* /x' to identify folder's DOS shortname...'

Use cicsPlay.bat if you want to run cPlay in RealTime priority (i.e. Windows gives it preferential treatment). If you're using cMP's operating sofware, this is done for you.

 

Use cMP's operating software, posted on May 8, 2008 at 13:50:18
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Links are provided in the main post. Make sure you follow the simple instructions in cMP's installation manual. Also see this useful post by Seger on how to create cue files from wav files.

cMP's operating software works on any machine with all sorts of configurations. Setup is straight forward and it presents your music library (using cue files) by Genre/Artist/All. You can navigate remotely using a mouse. More importantly, cMP optimizes the Windows environment for audio: things like thread optimizations and the Windows system footprint is reduced.

In cPlay's installation folder you'll see 'cicsMemoryPlayer.pth' file - use this (copy to cMP's installation folder) to have cMP launch cPlay instead of foobar (cMP default).

 

RE: "...on time: it has nothing to do with jitter." If not Jitter than what?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 14:38:57
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
That's something we have to find out yet. Apparently the way the software engages computer resources does implicates particular subjective sonic effects

Software is an abstract level (esp when using high level languages) and gives the perception that its all logic without physical consequences. As you get lower (some stuff in C, assembler and firmware), software becomes very physical (i.e. lots of electrical signals - data signals, clocks, etc). Eventually you get to this conclusion: Digital is Analogue! That is, there's no such thing as digital physics, just physics.

This distortion (i.e. lots of electrical signals which depend explicitly on the software thats running) from a pure audio viewpoint is jitter. This can be measured as the soundcard's XO is destabilized. Jitter defines such destabilization as either random or deterministic - software impacts both.

 

RE: "...on time: it has nothing to do with jitter." If not Jitter than what?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 14:43:30
Pedja
Manufacturer

Posts: 169
Joined: January 31, 2002
 Yes. And not only the sound but also entirely technical performance as jitter and noise levels.

 

RE: "...on time: it has nothing to do with jitter." If not Jitter than what?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 15:16:10
Pedja
Manufacturer

Posts: 169
Joined: January 31, 2002
 Digital is digital, and digital is not analog, though some problems associated to the digital electronics are indeed purely analog in nature, and jitter is exactly such a problem.

If you read my post better you could see that I assume the different players sound different, assuming also the reason behind this is exactly the different way they control/use computer resources.

Yet, the jitter performance is not a matter of taste or personal opinion - the jitter can be and is normally measured. So if you claim the thing X has different jitter performance than thing Y, you should post some measurement to support that, shouldn't you? Especially when making sweeping statement like "This distortion (i.e. lots of electrical signals which depend explicitly on the software thats running) from a pure audio viewpoint is jitter. This can be measured as the soundcard's XO is destabilized." (bold is mine) And actually, if you read my post better, you might read that your software and Foobar2000, and any other any correct player for that matter, have the same jitter performance and I've said this because I've actually measured them. I could post the plots but there was no reason to do this: they are the same.

Pedja

 

RE: "...on time: it has nothing to do with jitter." If not Jitter than what?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 15:32:26
drrd


 
foobar can play from RAM (buffer whole files), check the advanced settings.
And this is absolutely about jitter. If you record a file played via cplay asio and the same via foobar asio you will get exactly the same bit perfect results. if they sound different it isn't because of altered bits it's because of jitter.

 

RE: "...on time: it has nothing to do with jitter." If not Jitter than what?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 15:46:41
Pedja
Manufacturer

Posts: 169
Joined: January 31, 2002
 Great. I am waiting forward to the jitter measurements. I expect them to be different than those I made.

 

RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO, posted on May 8, 2008 at 16:37:02
racerxnet


 
Loaded the player, tried a few songs and was not impressed. No drag and drop, no file directory within player to load songs, ASIO playback was no better than Foobar 083. Ochtan sampler or SRC @ 96000.

Had audio playback issues where as foobar did not.

All in all a (good effort) at best so far. Minimal approach with minimal results compared to foobar. The user interface needs a lot of work.

 

RE: Should we delete FOOBAR?, posted on May 8, 2008 at 16:41:30
racerxnet


 
Foobar will not interfere with the player. If you do not like tagged files for an album list and want to play with the very basics of a player then delete foobar.

This thing needs some serious polishing to come close to Foobar basics. Sound quality is subjective and I felt there was no audible gains to be had running ASIO to my system.

 

1st attempt unsuccessful, posted on May 8, 2008 at 17:37:07
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Here are my diagnostics

ASIO Driver initialized.

DSP starting...
DSP Buffer (10240 samples or 232ms/ 4.3/ 172.3) allocation successful

ASIO Driver starting...
Input 1 [ Not Connected 1 ] Active (0) type (32bits)
Input 2 [ Not Connected 2 ] Active (0) type (32bits)

Output 1 [ Not Connected 1 ] Active (1) type (32bits) > Left Channel
Output 2 [ Not Connected 2 ] Active (1) type (32bits) > Right Channel

ASIO started successfully.

Processing CD [C:\Documents and Settings\ted betley\My Documents\My Music\Aaron Copland\Lincoln Portrait\01 Lincoln Portrait.wav]...
Wav file size = 155MB

Wav file structure is NOT supported.
Genre = Unknown
Artist = C:\Documents and Settings\ted betley\My Documents\My Music\Aaron Copland\Lincoln Portrait\01 Lincoln Portrait.wav
Album = WAV
Wav file = C:\Documents and Settings\ted betley\My Documents\My Music\Aaron Copland\Lincoln Portrait\01 Lincoln Portrait.wav

 

Hey Racer..., posted on May 8, 2008 at 18:41:08
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 "Sound quality is subjective and I felt there was no audible gains to be had running ASIO to my system."

When you said this, what were you comparing to ASIO? I'm not hunting for a debate - I'm collecting data on what people think about different methods.

Myself, I find kernel streaming and ASIO to sound pretty much the same. Directsound v2.0 sounds pretty good too.

Then again, I have my system set up so that no other app can ever stream ANY audio while my player is in use. (I select "no sounds" for system sounds, and use the onboard sound codec for all default devices, and check the "use only default devices" box).

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: cPlay 1.0b3 released, posted on May 8, 2008 at 18:43:06
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 "Do you remenber my comment, that SRC sound poorer than no upsampling in foobar ?"

I have always felt this way. I always prefer Foobar with no SRC - even the blessed secret rabbit! ;)

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Hey Racer..., posted on May 8, 2008 at 19:02:00
racerxnet


 
Hey Presto,

I tried all different plugins for Foobar and winamp. SRC, KS, otachan 047 ASIO, otachan sample rate converter. I am not sure I hear dramatic differences on my 2 systems. But then again, my hearing is shot from 25 years in the printing industry without much protection. Just thought I would try the player for the heck of it and compare.

As a programmer I wonder if he can let the user select a playlist and allow the files to be dumped after use and load as ram space permits. This eliminates the ram size limitation and one can cue as many songs as one likes. This can be done as I can program in many languages.

My system for testing is 4 Bryston 7BSST amps, Bryston BP26 pre, Infinity RS1B, Wavelenght brick, or Tri Vista 21 DAC.

Foobar 083 on XP
C2 duo E6320

 

RE: 2nd attempt unsuccessful, posted on May 8, 2008 at 19:24:47
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Here are diagnostics

SIO Driver Initializing...
Name (ASIO4ALL v2)
Player ASIO version (2)
Driver ASIO version (2)
Message (No ASIO Driver Error)
Channels (inputs: 2, outputs: 2)
Buffer details (min: 64, max: 2048, preferred: 512, granularity: 8)
Sample rate ( 44100)
Output Ready? Not supported
Preparing buffers... successful
Latencies (input: 0, output: 764)

ASIO Driver initialized.

DSP starting...
DSP Buffer (10240 samples or 232ms/ 4.3/ 86.1) allocation successful

ASIO Driver starting...
Input 1 [ Not Connected 1 ] Active (0) type (32bits)
Input 2 [ Not Connected 2 ] Active (0) type (32bits)

Output 1 [ Benchmark 1.0 1 ] Active (1) type (32bits) > Left Channel
Output 2 [ Benchmark 1.0 2 ] Active (1) type (32bits) > Right Channel

ASIO started successfully.

Processing CD [C:\Documents and Settings\ted betley\My Documents\My Music\Aaron Copland\Lincoln Portrait\01 Lincoln Portrait.wav]...
Wav file size = 155MB

Wav file structure is NOT supported.
Genre = Unknown
Artist = C:\Documents and Settings\ted betley\My Documents\My Music\Aaron Copland\Lincoln Portrait\01 Lincoln Portrait.wav
Album = WAV
Wav file = C:\Documents and Settings\ted betley\My Documents\My Music\Aaron Copland\Lincoln Portrait\01 Lincoln Portrait.wav


I got out puts to map to my benchmark but cannot get inputs from asio4all into cicsplay. What am I doing wrong?

 

RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO, posted on May 8, 2008 at 19:35:25
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Cics,

Thanks for doing this!!

I haven't yet put this on my main hifi rig, so I can't exactly comment on the sound yet.

Being a volume user, I can tell you that having to click on it repeatedly is not a good thing. COuld you make it ramp?

Also, it kind of works with Mp3toys. I know you didn't design it to do so, but if you could make a few changes, it might work with mp3 toys and give yourself a way to address the critics that have issue with the interface.

What happens is that mp3 toys will send a song and the cplayer will play it (if you press play...if the playback could be automatic then it would work). But when another song is sent from Mp3toys, then another instance of Cplayer is opened up, and the ASIO gets screwed up. If you would allow only one instance than I think it would work fine.

I'll let you know when I get a chance to listen critically.

 

Jitter Measurements, posted on May 9, 2008 at 05:33:19
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 See this thread: Jitter Research, Analysis & Measurement which I posted a while back. After reading the main post read this follow-up.

What you'll see is how the jitter measurement (Jpp) differs significantly. The only change in the entire equation is software with all else the same (i.e. hardware, audio chain and mains supply). The important thing here is that all software matters across all levels (firmware/BIOS, operating system, drivers, audio player etc.).
Digital is digital, and digital is not analog, ...

That's a bad assumption.
...have the same jitter performance and I've said this because I've actually measured them. I could post the plots but there was no reason to do this: they are the same.

If you don't mind, post one of the 2 plots. Also, the level of optimizations applied on the computer transport you measured.

 

Good progress! cPlay and ASIO is setup correctly, posted on May 9, 2008 at 05:41:48
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 The important message is "Wav file structure is NOT supported." - cPlay does strict validation on wav files (which I'll loosen later).

Try another wav file - preferably one you ripped using EAC - it's wav file will work.

 

RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO, posted on May 9, 2008 at 05:49:20
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 I have tried 1.03b on 2 systems

EMu 0404 usb - works correctly but some 24/96 files won't open (see 2L.no download)

LynxAES16 - opening page incorrectly identifies card as L22 and analog/digital options incorrect - but plays fine. Won't open 2L 24/96 files.

Sound; very clean, hf very clear and incisive, lf less than Foobar or Audition 1.5 and subjectlively seems to roll off early. I have twin large subwoofers giving firm bass where it is there.

In my system severly limited by ram avaialble as I have some very large hirez files.

 

What soundcard are you using?, posted on May 9, 2008 at 05:51:24
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 This is very important. In cPlay's design, it caters for 2 broad soundcard categories (at driver level) with each having slightly different parameters. Your feedback will help identify which parameters are working better. It would also help if you could post the initial diagnostic window.

If you have an EMU/Creative soundcard, there may be a chance for playback issues - test with ASIO4ALL to see if same occurs.

UI disappoints (for now/some) until tuning stage and flac is done... cPlay is designed to complement cMP.

 

RE: Good progress! cPlay and ASIO is setup correctly, posted on May 9, 2008 at 05:58:08
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Thank you for your response. Unfortunately all my files were ripped with wmp11. I'll get eac and try that (I've been wanting to anyway, this gives me a good reason).

 

RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO, posted on May 9, 2008 at 05:59:51
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Thanks for the feedback. Your high-res files are 24/96. How much RAM do you have installed?

I still have some strict wav file validations in cPlay which I'll remove in b4. The identification information and channels you see is supplied by Lynx's driver. Only Lynx can change this.

 

Try using cPlay's keyboard mappings, posted on May 9, 2008 at 06:19:51
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 cPlay keys are:
  • '[' / ']' for Previous / Next
  • ';' for phase 0/180
  • '.' for stop
  • shift+Home for volume up
  • shift+End for volume down
  • Enter to play highlighted track
  • Alt+F4 or Esc for exit

I'm not familiar with Mp3Toys but it should offer keyboard mappings. In my setup, I rarely ever click - just use mouse wheel button: push+UP/Down gives volume Up/Down (with cMP). My other setup, I use the 7" touch screen - it's addictive!

UI changes will follow later - although I plan to keep it minimal. I can't handle all that visual noise & clutter.

cPlay is designed to support multiple instances - allowing for output from multiple cards. Yes, on same soundcard you'll get an error. Could you exit cPlay then revert to Mp3Toys and play something else? cPlay starts playback immediately (just make sure you set Diagnostics to No in settings).

 

RE: Good progress! cPlay and ASIO is setup correctly, posted on May 9, 2008 at 06:37:46
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Just got EAC downloaded (still trying to learn how to optimize eac rip) and successfully ran Cicsplay versus j river (both with eac rip). Conclusion I have a new player---Cicsplay is much clearer, more extended in highs and lows, much more dynamic. I'm loving it. All of this sonic excellence and a polarity switch to boot!

Thank you so much!!!!

To the extent that you will allow wav files ripped through other than EAC in future realeases will certainly be appreciated. I have over 120 gigs like that.Now I have to learn how to best run EAC.



 

RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO, posted on May 9, 2008 at 06:39:41
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 No, 24/176.4 and 192k. Some are 3 GB from continously ripping 192k DVDVs.

I have 2 GB ram.

 

Listened to 1st classical piece thru Cicsplay, posted on May 9, 2008 at 09:19:31
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Imaging and dynamics are thrilling. I can't overstate how good this sounds. This is a real breakthrough!!!

But I need eac counseling. I'm not getting automatic cd data lookup in EAC so as a result I'm getting the files ripped and placed in weird places. Do I have to register for freedb or because I was previously using wmp11 am I being blocked or do I have the wrong setup in tools or whatever (probably)?

Where can I get help for eac?

 

Should I still set preferences to cache?, posted on May 9, 2008 at 12:21:52
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Or is cicsplay immune to cache/hard drive?

 

I must be missing something here., posted on May 9, 2008 at 13:37:55
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 I put this on my main rig. I don't have the cue file issues I was having and the player starts right up.

But here is the issue and it is the same one with mp3toys:

When I am listening to an album and i go into explorer and select another cue sheet, it opens ANOTHER instance of cplay. That 2nd instance will never work with the Lynx single client ASIO drivers....because the first instance is using them! SO I have to exit the first and then select the 2nd cue file.

How are you supposed to change cue files without exiting every time?? Am I missing something.

Now if it would just work with one instance then the current songs would get replaced, then it would work with the way I use it and with Mp3toys which sends wave files to cplay, much like me selecting them in explorer.

Also, my "keyboard" on my wireless touch screen doesn't have a shift lock button. And since I have to exit the player everytime, I have to hit the volume at least 32 times to get back to 0 ( I am counting the times I have to hit the shift key as well). Could you just make it remember its volume when it exits or give a 0 option?

ALso, I don't think my 1ghz PC is fast enough for 192. It had all kinds of artifacts. 96 works ok

I'll hopefully get some time for critical listening and let you know.

Thanks.

 

RE: Jitter Measurements, posted on May 9, 2008 at 14:06:50
Pedja
Manufacturer

Posts: 169
Joined: January 31, 2002
 > What you'll see is how the jitter measurement (Jpp) differs significantly.
> The only change in the entire equation is software with all else the
> same (i.e. hardware, audio chain and mains supply). The important thing
> here is that all software matters across all levels
> (firmware/BIOS, operating system, drivers, audio player etc.).

Well, important thing...... the above is simply incorrect statement. As long as software is any good, it doesn’t change a squat about jitter. I didn’t say it is not possible to produce such artifacts by software, I said that one has to screw up something to do that, and this apparently was the case. Everything you have posted was the case where your software screwed something up in this regard. Yet you claim that “all software matters across all levels”.

As for the plots you’ve posted... they generally look too good to be true for PCI based S/PDIF source, and this particular source is most probably driven by PLL clock and with performance claimed by manufacturer “< 1 ns”. Having a PCI S/PDIF source with shown performance would be much more important news than anything else we are now talking about. So, my question is what the PLL corner frequency of Scarlatti DAC is?

Also, for the record... when making the jitter measurements of analog output, it is important to use the frequency that is a divisor of sampling frequency, since only this way you avoid quantization noise, and only that way you comply with proposed standard. Your FFT windowing was also apparently inappropriate. Or, if it was, what was the cause of the skirt around 7kHz?


> That's a bad assumption.

No, it is not assumption at all, it is rather a matter of fact. One has to learn to tell one from the other though. In that regard, the protocols, data processing and alike belong the digital, whereas voltage, current and alike belong the analog world. Connection between these two worlds is possible by so called sampling and that’s where the jitter we are talking about belongs. Anyhow, the “digital is analog”... no way.


> If you don't mind, post one of the 2 plots. Also, the level of optimizations applied on the computer transport you measured.

I actually posted plenty of plots showing performance of PC based audio systems during a couple of last years to the diyhifi.org, and recently you may find a sort of summary on my own site. I am not familiar with the term “the level of optimizations” though.

Pedja

 

RE: I must be missing something here., posted on May 9, 2008 at 15:51:51
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Ok, for each play request, you must restart cPlay - that is after each play, you must exit cPlay before playing another. If you don't exit cPlay, then you'll have another cPlay instance running (which would give an error as ASIO driver is not available).

For VC, choose 'None' in cPlay's settings - this will give you 0.0db volume. Saving volume is something I'll look into (I've had a similar request).

 

RE: Should I still set preferences to cache?, posted on May 9, 2008 at 15:59:06
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Keep your cMP settings that you've made - there's no need to change anything. I run 2 cMP's (in separate systems) each fully configured with cPlay.

I can't help you on those EAC features (never used them).

That's great feedback. Version 1.0b4 will have wider wav file acceptability and should work with wmp rips.

 

RE: I must be missing something here., posted on May 9, 2008 at 16:36:49
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 THanks C,

THis is one of those times I wished I was wrong.

Ok, for each play request, you must restart cPlay - that is after each play, you must exit cPlay before playing another. If you don't exit cPlay, then you'll have another cPlay instance running (which would give an error as ASIO driver is not available).

That doesn't strike you as odd?? I certainly cant think of any other player that operates like that.

What would be the problem with just erasing the existing cue??

 

RE: Jitter Measurements, posted on May 9, 2008 at 16:39:43
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 The changes that yielded those results had nothing todo with 'screwed up' software. In the follow-up post you'll understand that I replaced the Windows default shell (Explorer) with cMP and as explained in the pdf documents Windows Explorer is not good for audio playback. Also, Juli@'s mixer process was removed. These are all valid software changes.

The fact those measurements reflect quite clearly jitter improvements is unquestionable. I was able to repeat them across different input frequencies AND over different days.

dCS don't provide corner frequency details - perhaps you could ask them? As to RME's spec'd 1ns jitter - its a guide. This is discussed in the thread.

Any analogue frequency will be afflicted with jitter distortion. The choice of recording sampling frequency and bit depth (at 24/96) makes quantization noise an unimportant factor (at 24 bits this noise is below -150db). The plots (in dbrms) are excellent and given Scarlatti DAC's cost I would expect them to be so!

You not getting the point on "digital is analog" - what I'm saying is digital processing has real physical consequences by way of voltages, currents etc. and as a result, its application (i.e. the software & firmware) needs similar due care taken as for analogue. Things like efficiency, low power consumption, EMI/RFI, etc. all matters - this is analogue.

You claimed you have measured the 2 (which are the same). Why not present it? Looking at other plots is not the point. As to the level of optimization, I'm referring to specific details of the computer that was measured (esp those items that are changed from its default setting).

 

RE: I must be missing something here., posted on May 9, 2008 at 16:53:33
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 It's a deliberate design choice to allow for Windows optimizations (lsass suspension) when using cMP. Lsass (Windows security subsystem) does create audible interference (in my reference setup) and foobar's design will not allow for lsass to be suspended.

I could make cPlay start up once only and thereafter process play requests - I'll give it some thought as to how I can have both options user selectable.

 

RE: Should I still set preferences to cache?, posted on May 9, 2008 at 17:00:05
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I had a hard down today. Got a system error and my usb signal went dead. Cplay was still playing but because of the system error I was not getting any signal to my dac. Microsoft (automated message) said that it was due to a new device (but there wasn't any) or new software which I do have (Cplay) so I removed it from my computer and went back to j river until I could hear from you. J river is working ok so my usb signal is back.

Any ideas?

 

RE: Should I still set preferences to cache?, posted on May 9, 2008 at 17:29:59
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 here is my error message
Follow these steps to solve the problem with a device driver

You received this message because a device driver installed on your computer caused Windows to stop unexpectedly. This type of error is referred to as a "stop error." A stop error requires you to restart your computer.

Troubleshooting

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Depending on which situation is applicable to you, do one of the following:

If this problem occurred after you installed a new hardware device on your computer, the problem might be caused by the device driver. Use the Dell Driver Reset Tool or uninstall the driver.

How do I disable or uninstall a device driver?

Click Start, and then click Control Panel. If you are using Classic View, click Switch to Category View.
Click Performance and Maintenance, and then click System.
Click the Hardware tab, and then click Device Manager.
Click the plus sign (+) next to the faulting device. You should now see the device listed.
Right-click the device, and then click Disable or Uninstall.
If this problem occurred after you added new software, the software might have added a driver that caused the problem. Try removing the software.

How do I remove a program?

Click Start, click Control Panel, and then click Add or Remove Programs.
Click Change or Remove Programs, click the program you want to remove, and then click Change/Remove or Remove.
If you don't know the specific driver or software, try performing a System Restore.
Go online to check for updated drivers on the Microsoft Update website:
Microsoft Update
For information about your support options, go online to the Support.Dell.Com website.

I got it again while running j river so I fairly certain its not cplay but what the heck is it any of you experts?

 

RE: Jitter Measurements, posted on May 9, 2008 at 17:51:24
Pedja
Manufacturer

Posts: 169
Joined: January 31, 2002
 What did you want to achieve performing the measurements over different days? You could perform them over different years and they'd be the same flawed – and that because your setup is simply not good for this purpose. Firstly, the S/PDIF output you used most probably had several orders of magnitude higher jitter than anything shown in your graphs. On the other side, the jitter shown in the graphs is low most probably because the D/A converter you used had strong jitter attenuation. You can not perform measurements you wanted to perform using a setup like that. I'm not affiliated with dCS so I have no better chances to get their answer than you do. And it is you who should be interested in this rather than me, since it was you who had to know what you were actually using to perform measurements.

As for the difference you have found, you have to check again things to see what actually happened. For start I'd guess that it had something with mixer, and yes, I'd normally assume that any mixer had to be removed from the process anyhow.

I didn't claim that I measured two, I did said that I measured jitter performance of your s/w versus jitter performance of Foobar2000, and I said that the performance was the same. In fact I measured about any software I could come across. I was told that there will be night and day differences in jitter, this software, that software, this setting, that setting, this ASIO, that ASIO, not ASIO, etc. Nothing, and I stress, nothing of this, once you set the PC to output data directly and with no resampling, had any influence on given PC jitter performance. Particular jitter performance is simply associated to the hardware used, and differences in jitter performance between different hardware are relatively easily visible. As for the rest, including the graphs, please refer to the article I directed you to in my previous post.

Pedja

 

RE: I must be missing something here., posted on May 9, 2008 at 21:21:18
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Well, if you can do it as user selectable, that would be great. A very big thanks if you can accomplish this.

 

cPlay early impressions, posted on May 10, 2008 at 02:05:30
seger
 I’ve been comparing cPlay, Foobar, and Winamp, running from Windows, from cics realtime bat files, and in cMP. System optimized more or less according to cics, with M-Audio AP192 soundcard, latency at minimum 64 samples (<1ms). Winamp with KS (out_ks363), buffers at minimums, no resampling. (Winamp with the otachan asio plugin is not bad, but lost out to KS with me long ago.) Foobar is with ASIO – I have never got Foobar KS to work with this soundcard.

First, music delivery:
It is easier to compare the two ASIO players – Foobar and cPlay have the same quality of sound, the ASIO effect, I suppose, and are really very similar. But cPlay is an advancement, and I find myself choosing it over Foobar every time. It has the very clean ASIO sound, but slightly less “lean” and hollow, a bit rounder, more vibrant. I’m talking about a very small increment here, but this is an achievement. cPlay is a more definite winner with me in 192K resampling over Foobar. I usually prefer Foobar without resampling, except with certain CDs that seem to need it – it is smoother with resampling but a bit sterile. cPlay gets the smoothness with less of the “sterility”, so that I find myself leaving it on all the time.

Winamp with KS has a different quality. Combined with the M-Audio card, there seems to be a synergy that keeps surprising me. This is a rawer sound, immediate, but not as clean as the ASIO players, with or without resampling. It is also more natural, sonorous, and emotionally moving for me. It is centered more in mid-range, while Foobar and cPlay seem to accentuate the treble. Using 192k resampling, cPlay gets closer to the emotional draw of Winamp than Foobar, but isn’t quite there for me, except for certain CDs that need “taming” (e.g., too heavy on bass, poor production quality) Mostly I find myself gravitating back toward Winamp. Has anybody else tried it with this sound card?

Played with the cics bat files I find Winamp and Foobar perceptibly improved compared to playing from Windows, and cPlay very slightly better as well. The big improvement comes when playing any of them in cMP – the effect is the same for all of them – exhilarating.

Secondly, the interface:
Foobar – fantastic, as you all know, so easy to customize and use. Winamp – ugly compared to Foobar, but you can streamline it if you work through all the menus and submenus. Very easy to use, except for an annoying glitch in the KS setup – the output buffer resets to maximum every time Winamp closes. It is worth resetting every time – I can hear the difference. cPlay – awkward that it only works from context menu, and playlists have to be reloaded each time it is used. Nothing in the UI can be customized except resampling.
While they all sound much better in cMP, the cumbersome interface of cMP almost ruins the enjoyment. I understand cics is prioritizing sonic improvements for now – fair enough.

 

I think I solved my 'stop' problem...associated with eac..., posted on May 10, 2008 at 06:02:22
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...but how can I play a whole album in Cicsplay with one mouse click? I'm setting up cues in eac but I keep having to play each track separately.

 

Sonics (especially the highs) are darn near perfect, posted on May 10, 2008 at 07:30:33
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 The high frequencies are very natural, sounding very coherent with respect to the midrange. Lots of hifi playback hardware/software separates the highs from the mids which lends itself to edginess, hardness, etc etc. Not with cplay. There is a mellowness to it but not unnatural mellowness. Mellow like in real.

More and more appreciated as I listen further.

Thanks again!! Btw the phase switch works well.

 

RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO, posted on May 10, 2008 at 08:00:17
racerxnet


 
Phase inversion has been on the Bryston Pre Amps for some time. It has a subtle effect at higher volumes, but nothing dramatic. Otachan has several ASIO files for foobar to use, so it might be beneficial to try several for sonic benefits.

Foobar .083 with the Otachan .047 ASIO driver and Otachan sampler has a more natural presentation over the Cic's player. Foobar being more holographic and better seperation. The snap of a snare more pronounced, fingers sliding across the guitar strings more discernable.

Hope the next version is more user friendly than the current. I'll try all as they come out. The code should be open source so that others with more experience can add to it. Similar to the Foobar source code.


 

cPlay 1.0b4 released, posted on May 11, 2008 at 02:08:37
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Change Log:

  1. Tuning parameters same for all soundcards

  2. Additional efficiencies implemented in critical areas yielding improvements and slight reduction in CPU load :-)

  3. Phase 180 '^' indicator between track and ellapsed time display (for Phase 0, nothing shown). Useful to confirm playback polarity

  4. UI enhancements:

    • You can now double-click desktop icon and cPlay automatically brings up file selection window. In cPlay, you can select new material:

      New settings (if done) will take effect and polarity is reset (if phase 180 was active, on requesting new material, phase is reset to 0), volume is maintained

      *** WARNING ***: this feature must not be used with cMP. If svchost & lsass is suspended during playback, cPlay and your system will lock indefinitely

    • Volume saved on exit. Settings no longer require volume. On intial startup (after installation), volume is -30.0db thereafter retrieved at 1db level, i.e. 0.5 bit is ignored

    • Reduce font size


  5. Extend .wav file support for more strange structures (or chuncks)


Make sure to remove any previous release of cPlay before installing 1.0b4.

 

Everything new working as reported--nice! nt, posted on May 11, 2008 at 06:15:07
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Thank you

 

cPlay 1.0b5 released, posted on May 11, 2008 at 14:05:47
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Change Log:

  1. SRC does not clip output when out of range - implemented in cPlay. This issue affects some recordings only! It's best to use digital VC in such cases (as no clipping is required)

  2. More accurate available RAM calculation

  3. [cMP users only] Added feature to disable file browising. Use this to DISABLE file browse button. This prevents accidental indefinite waits in cMP when lsass and/or svchost is suspended. Just add line "CMP" to "cicsPlay.ini" file

  4. Minor UI stuff

  5. Restrict to running only one instance of cPlay. Trying to run cPlay more than once will result in an error message


Make sure to remove previous release before installing cPlay 1.0b5.

Next release will take longer unless a bug fix is needed.

 

Dowloaded cPlay 1.0b5 and can now get 500 megs ..., posted on May 12, 2008 at 02:59:21
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ... to work as a one cue file. Progress thanks!! Is there any more opportunity to get more ram to become available on the programming side ?Otherwise I need another 1 gig ram chip.

 

cPlay 1.0b6 released, posted on May 13, 2008 at 06:50:29
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Change Log:

  1. Runtime optimizations applied: playback algorithm exactly as 1.0b5 with 1.0b6 implemented differently at compiler level

  2. Some UI enhancements


This is an interesting (and unplanned) release. Apart from minor UI enhancements (RAM loading done separately from UI), the playback algorithm is exactly the same as 1.0b5. However, compiler options are used to generate greater efficiency. There's a difference!

Your feedback in comparing 1.0b5 vs 1.0b6 would be most useful.

As before, remove previous version before installing cPlay 1.0b6.

 

SRC does not clip output when out of range ..., posted on May 13, 2008 at 07:26:00
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

I suspect I am not the only one who does not understand what this means.

Is there an advantage to using the inherent volume control? If that is so, what would be the best average amount of attenuation? I had not intended to use the included attenuator. One assumes that "0" is best but that does not mean the assumption is correct.

Also, what would be better:
a. a remote control mouse
b. a mouse connected with a long USB cable
c. a mouse connected with a long PS2 cable
d. a keyboard connected with a long PS2 cable. I have found that my set up will not recognize an USB keyboard

By better I mean which would introduce less garbage back into the computer.

The remote control mouse would be connected as per cMP instructions with separate power supply.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Rick McInnis

PS I had re-installed the previous version of cPLAY and therefore was not getting the advantage of the phase switch.

When I got this "corrected" all worked very well. This has added much
additional pleasure to listening. Especially as I have discovered that most recordings sound best with the 180 position!

 

cPlay 1.0b6 released-- initial impressions, posted on May 13, 2008 at 08:03:20
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Seems more open on top/wider deeper soundstage/more dynamic. At first I thought it was minor but the more I listened (4 albums-Queen Latifah Dana Owens album, Lang Lang playing Beethoven; Lincoln Portrait, Soundtrack Big Bad Love) the more I liked it and thought it was more than a subtle or small improvement.

Keep em comin' (improvements that is).

 

RE: SRC does not clip output when out of range ..., posted on May 13, 2008 at 09:00:01
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "I suspect I am not the only one who does not understand what this means."

When using an upsampling sample rate converter it is possible for an interpolated value to be greater than either adjacent sample in the source file. (Imagine a sine wave that peaks exactly at the interpolated point.) So even if all the samples in a WAV file are below the maximum allowable value that can be stored in a file or sent to a DAC it is possible for some of the upsampled values to be above the limit. The result will be clipping distortion unless something is done about it.

What the SRC used in cPLAY is doing is to allow over valued samples. It won't be possible to send these to the DAC unchanged—they will have to be clipped if no digital volume control is used. However, if a digital volume control is used then all the samples can be reduced to avoid the necessity of clipping.

Perhaps this explanation is still confusing. However, if you use an audio editor that allows you to look at sample values and do SRC conversions you will be able to see as well as hear these operations, making it easier to understand what is going on.




Tony Lauck

"Perception, inference and authority are the valid sources of knowledge" - P.R. Sarkar

 

Do you recommend a level of attenuation?, posted on May 13, 2008 at 09:37:28
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear Mr. Lauck,

Your explanation is not confusing. You confirmed what I thought I was reading but wanted to be sure.

SO, should one keep cPLAY, at say -5dB, I picked this number out of the ether. I would appreciate your, and cics's, recommendation.

Of course, it makes one think this should be automatic (pre-set level of attenuation), but with the great disaparity in relative colume levels with CD's, I can see that might not be a good idea. I have some CD's that are extremely dim in level and I assumne automatic attenuation would do them no good and then there are many recent CD's (the Paul McCartney MEMORY ALMOST FULL as an example) that is so unbelievably "loud" that I suspect it is one that would send the upsampler into this clipping mode.

So, as I try to answer my own question, should one use cPLAY's attenuator (mainly) to level out individual CD's?

Thanks for the help,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Do you recommend a level of attenuation?, posted on May 13, 2008 at 18:21:15
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 The optimum amount of digital attenuation will be a tradeoff between reducing the resolution of the DAC (too much attenuation) and clipping when playing transients with lots of high frequencies (too little attenuation). The tradeoff will depend on details of the SRC and characteristics of each recording.

If I had a 16 bit DAC, I probably wouldn't be doing upsampling in my computer or using any digital attenuation. I would want to keep all the bits I had. However, even without doing any computer upsampling, it is possible that the DAC itself might be doing its own upsampling and if poorly designed might run into problems with digital overload. So if I heard distortion at loud peaks in either case I would try perhaps 6 db of digital attenuation to see if it fixes the problem on a particular recording.

I have a 24 bit DAC which I run at 96kHz, upsampling with foobar2000 or cPlay when necessary. (Listening tests convinced me that doing this upsampling resulted in better sound. Whether or not this will help you will depend on the design of your own DAC.) I have fixed my analog volume control at a level whereby the loudest possible recording will not clip my speakers without any digital attenuation. I do all my playback volume adjustment with a digital volume control. Normally it is set around -14 db, and seldom goes out of the range -18 to -6 db. Some over compressed recordings (the ones that might cause digital overload) are so loud that they require more attenuation, but these recordings don't sound any good anyhow.




Tony Lauck

"Perception, inference and authority are the valid sources of knowledge" - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: cPlay 1.0b6 released-- initial impressions, posted on May 14, 2008 at 03:13:01
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 In my reference setup, cPlay 1.0b6 is magnificent. I want no compromise in the midrange and this version does it very well (without loosing any of the strengths that prior cPlay versions offered).

 

RE: Do you recommend a level of attenuation?, posted on May 14, 2008 at 03:40:42
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 The only thing I would add with cPlay, is to set volume to -0.5 db to avoid clipping. Anything more is not needed.

cPlay does 64bit double precision calculations. There are many recordings/tracks that are clipped already for which SRC when interpolating, will create sample values out of range. For 32bit ASIO, setting volume to just -0.5 db would remove any upsampler related clipping - really bad recordings would need more than -0.5. At -6db, signal levels halve in amplitude!

 

Use USB mouse which is powered from alternate Granite Digital PS., posted on May 14, 2008 at 04:18:45
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 This way you can use a wireless one without any compromise.

 

Don't disagree it's just that..., posted on May 14, 2008 at 06:25:51
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ... I describe/notice different aspects of the sound. Definitely better, keep up the great work.

Btw I freed up some ram by some settings/process deletions. My question is I typically have over 50 processes running. I know you mentioned that in cmp you got it down to about 11. I use my computer for email/internet/pictures/music. What processes can I disable to maintain these applications? I was hoping for something like no more than 40. Is that achievable given my needs? How can I understand what each process does so I can make a value judgement to keep/disable?

 

My impressions of #6, posted on May 14, 2008 at 07:45:20
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

I have not gone to the trouble of going back and forth to make my assessment. I know this should be done, and I probably would do it if I had doubts about what I am experiencing.

I agree with you, it sounds magnificent. I know I am not missing anything from what I was hearing with #5. Of course, we are not dealing with night and day differences. Though that would be neat! But, this process has taken digital sound to such heights as incremental gains are all that can be expected. I am delighted byt he sound. My favorite criterion is how late I stay up listening. I have not been getting enough sleep the last couple of weeks.

I would like to point out to the others that this appoach, cics's approach, is a system. One can cut and paste, pick and choose, but without doing what he has described, borne of much fiddleing and tweaking, one does know what this system is capable of.

In the world of super expensive transports to build a dedicated computer for this purpose is a BARGAIN. One does not fret when their $5000.00 transport cannot send emails. Build this as suggested and experience digital MUSIC reproduction. No, it is not analogue but in many ways this betters analogue. In my most unhumble opinion this has allowed digital music reproduction and analogue music reproduction to stand side by side with their own individual strengths. To really learn what is in a recording one needs to hear it in both formats. Each casts the music so that different aspects of a recording are revealed.

I have noticed that when using cPLAY that CRYPTOGRAPHIC SERVICES are started even though I have them set to MANUAL per ART OF COMPUTER TRANSPORTS paper. If I force it to close, cPLAY cannot access my music files. Is this correct?

cics, thanks for the remote mouse advice. I will get one of those on order today.

Thanks cics for this extraordinary device!

Rick McInnis

 

Please say some more about setting up .bat files, posted on May 14, 2008 at 09:58:17
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Because you were so helpful with cue files and ram replacement and since you obviously like the bat files can you tell me what to do (bat files for dummies steps if you will)to implement thisd

 

RE: Hey Racer..., posted on May 14, 2008 at 12:10:49
Riboge


 
If you know how to program what you describe about loading from a playlist then dumping from ram to make room for more on the list, etc, which I surely don't, I entreat you to work on this to enhance this open source player for all. The creator of the player tells me he is busy developing the flac capability and would welcome someone else developing the multi-file playback capability.

 

RE: Please say some more about setting up .bat files, posted on May 14, 2008 at 13:15:09
seger
 You just want to play cPlay in real time, right? Cics has already put a .bat file in cPlay: right-click on the cue file for the music you want to play, select “Open with”, then “Choose program”, then click on “Browse” and navigate to C:drive/Program Files/ cics Play. In the cics Play folder is the cicsplay.bat file. Double click on that and you will go back to the “Open with” menu, and cicsplay.bat will be in the “Recommended Programs” list, highlighted. Click on the OK button and cPlay will appear and the desktop will disappear. You should notice a slight improvement in sound quality. Next time you want to run cPlay in real time just right-click the cue file/Open With and select cicsplay.bat from the menu. If you tick the box next to “Always use the selected program to open this kind of file”, then OK – then next time you want to play a .cue file with cicsplay.bat, just double-click the .cue file.
If you want even more from the music, do all of the optimizations in cics’ v03 and cMP pdf documents and play your music in cMP – stunning.

 

RE: Please say some more about setting up .bat files, posted on May 14, 2008 at 17:33:02
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 You just want to play cPlay in real time, right? Cics has already put a .bat file in cPlay: right-click on the cue file for the music you want to play, select “Open with”,

I get this far and then all I see is Cics play in the recommended programs. I don't see a choose program. I do see browse but all that it shows is cics play and when I click on that it just pops the boot up file for playing whatever I chose??? Then it plays the file.

What am I doing wrong?

 

RE: Please say some more about setting up .bat files, posted on May 15, 2008 at 00:31:36
seger
 With v1.0b6 you can just double click the bat file and then choose your music. I don't hear any real difference though. The bat files for foobar made a big difference. I tried adapting those for cPlay, just out of curiosity, but couldn't get it to work. Comment from cics is needed here!

 

Real puzzle for me, posted on May 16, 2008 at 05:50:03
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Yesterday I revised some of my settings to ineffect reduce graphics capability and reset some services to manual from automatic. All the actions were intended to free up some ram so I could play larger eac cue files. Before this action I was limited to about 47 minute cue files but after I was running up tp 65 minute cue files. I very pleased and began to re-rip many of my > 47 minute cd's into cue files. At the end of the day I re-booted the computer. This morning much to my horror I was back to a limit of 47 minute cue files and could not play my re-ripped files. Can you give me somw idea of what happened and how to get back to 65 minute play back? I know getting more ram is the ultimate solution but if I played 65 minute files yesterday why not today?

 

RE: Real puzzle for me, posted on May 16, 2008 at 08:03:18
racerxnet


 
You want to play for more than an hour EH! Quit toying around with this player and use Foobar, Jrivers Media, or another ASIO based player. Then you can play music all day. Sooner or later the placebo effect will wear off.

Resistance is futile!

Just having fun with you Theob as you appear to be a fanboy of this very basic software.

Have fun.

 

Should one use the LOGITECH software?, posted on May 16, 2008 at 10:44:34
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

I got my NANO mouse today.
Should one use the disk supplied?

Thanks,

Rick McInnis

 

Worst case would be closer to -3dB, posted on May 16, 2008 at 10:57:39
Slider
 Though -2dB is probably sufficient. That way you don't lose any resolution and assure the intersample peaks won't be distorted. Some hardware digital filters take care of this automatically when oversampling and interpolating, but I don't know about the software upsamplers.

 

I see the answer in cMP installation manual, posted on May 16, 2008 at 11:43:25
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Sorry,

 

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