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In Reply to: RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO posted by cics on May 05, 2008 at 13:31:58
of the following tweak. I have done it on my working machine. No crashes. But I don't have a cmp and a soundcard here. Cmp will be rebuilt only by weekend, but the tweak is itching. It's about the hatefull watchdog.sys
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff553890.aspx
Set BreakPointDelay value to 8640 (rightclick create the new REG_DWORD entry, then doubleclick it)
Set DisableBugCheck value to 1. Everything is working and rebooting.
Be careful.
Serge
Follow Ups:
2010-01-12 : subject line should read...Serge - but WHY set BreakPointDelay = 95.46 hours ?
Hi Serge
I've been slow to implement all recent tweaks, and last night the Watchdog was in my sights. The msdn page you reference specifies:
Set the value of BreakPointDelay to the watchdog time threshold, in 10-second units. For example, a value of 200 specifies a threshold of 2,000 seconds.
In the case of 0x00008640 (a number expressed in hexidecimal notation), the conversion and math works out to 34,368 x 10-second units, setting the BreakPointDelay to 95.46 hours .
Is there something special about choosing this length of time that I'm missing ?
Perhaps you mean to set the value to 0x000021C0 , which works out to 24 hours ?
In any event, thank you again for blazing the trail of new (...and obscure) adjustments for making cMP sound better and better... and better...
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Edits: 01/12/12 01/12/12
Hi Steppe,
What do you think of the 'EaRecovery' registry value in the watchdog registry section ?
Does it also need too be changed from 1 to 0 ?
See: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff553893.aspx
In Microsoft Windows XP SP1 and later operating systems, GDI uses a watchdog timer to monitor the time that threads spend executing in the display driver. The watchdog defines a time threshold. If a thread spends more time in a display driver than the threshold specifies, the watchdog tries to recover by switching to VGA graphics mode. If the attempt fails, the watchdog generates bug check 0xEA, THREAD_STUCK_IN_DEVICE_DRIVER.
Because timeout recovery code is complex, it might cause incompatibility with display drivers. To resolve the compatibility problems, timeout recovery can be disabled.
To disable timeout recovery, create the following REG_DWORD entry in the registry, and set its value to 0:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Watchdog\Display\
EaRecovery
Mark
fully optimized cMP2 PC -> ESI Juli@ -> Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII-> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Hello, thank You for this info. Probably worth doing. Have You done it? What's the perceptible difference? Do You Like or Dislike the Watchdog tweak in general? Feedback is necessary. Even negative one.
Serge.
Hi Serge,In my system the watchdog registry tweak is the best software tweak after using ASIO or WASAPI.
To give some kind of quantification/impression: it improves sound quality at some 30% – 50% level compared too the positive impact on sq ASIO or WASAPI has. So a real significant one in my system which doesn’t need extensive A <-> B comparisons.Most software tweaks need extensive A <-> B comparisons too indentify their mostly minor and/or very subtle SQ changes/improvements. However, the SQ change of the watchdog registry tweak is very significant. It’s positive impact on SQ can be heard easily and immediately.
It ads to my system a touch of ‘that expensive sound’ one gets when using the top-level range AD-converters from makes like Prism, Lavry, Weiss, Metric Halo, ectSo all in all the second best software tweak for windows XP I’ve come across.
IMHO a must do tweak which should be listed at the cicsmemoryplayer website.Mark
Edits: 12/05/11
Are you specifically talking about your suggested registry tweak or steppes or both of yours combined?
nt
Hi Serge,
You struck some gold here!
The SQ improvement is real significant in my setup.
Theo already described the nature of the SQ improvement.
I get the same type of SQ improvement in my setup.
Thank you !
NB Your picture shows REG_SZ values instead of REG_DWORD values
Mark nice to see you post. I have to share an experience. The other day I took out one of my hdd's to rip some new music (cant do it anymore via thumbdrive after 1-22 steppes) and while ripping (with hdd out)I listened to some cmp^2 music. All of a sudden the same music I just listened to with all my hdds hooked up sounded way better. In an effort to understand this (and capture it) I concluded that the hdd I took out of the pc was hooked up to an external ps with no/minimal ferrites/caps. So when I replaced the hdd I plugged it into my fully capped/ferrite infested internal ps and sure enough the lower mid/upper bass grunge was way better. I tried a retired granite digital on the hdd...not good. I soldered some silmic caps into the granite ... a lot better but not as good as my baseline Antec fully capped and ferrite infested. Once again ferrites/caps on the powerline shows its excellence. Too bad others have not tried this very effective tweaks.
Hi Theo,It is my experience too, that filtering and/or cleaning the power too a cMP and ALL (!) it’s auxiliaries will yield (much) better sound quality.
Not only filtering the power of a switching PSU’s will give better SQ in a cMP setup, but also filtering the output of standard of the shelve linear bench PSU’s, will result in better SQ when using a cMP setup.Even filtering the power too my tinny 16Gb Kingstone SSD gives a little sound quality improvement.
I filter the power too this little 16 Gb Kingstone SSD with a coupled inductor filter (as I showed in earlier posts) and a ferrite coil with 7 windings behind this coupled inductor filter.
Although the SQ improvement is only very little, I find it worth the trouble.I think (!) it was TeddyPardo who stressed the importance of filtering VHF and UHF frequencies in power supplies for analog audio systems. Although these frequencies are not even close too the audible analog frequencies, there negative effects can be clearly heard (according too TeddyPardo. If I remember correctly)
I guess in digital audio filtering VHF and UHF is even more important, because all kind of logic and clocks suffer performance we need for audio quality, when they receive DC power, which is contaminated with VHF and UHF.Unfortunately, ferrites + caps filters can’t filter much lower than 1 mHz. I’m still looking for ways too effectively filter 80 Khz (ATX switching noise) or 300 kHz (pico switching noise).
I looked at using gyrators for this. But understanding/using/implementing gyrator based power line filters, is very complicated for me. As I lack knowledge (not being an EE).Although ‘(much) ferrites + caps’ or ‘ferrite based chokes + caps’, can only effectively filter from roughly 1 mHz and up, there is still a profound positive effect on sound quality when filtering the power too a cMP setup. (also when applied on linear PSU’s !!) . It is indeed a pity that other inmates make so little use of them or experiment so little with them.
Mark
Edit: Instead of TeddyPardo it also could have been Andy Weekes.
I can't remember. But it was one of those PSU guru's. :-)
Edits: 12/01/11
Hi Mark, i tried the ferrites a while ago, sorry i didn't report. Thanks for your suggestions.
I tried the ferrites on p24 (the flat ones), p4, 12v-line-to-pico, hdd/ssd, and of course on the 220v powercords. When using too much ferrites, i got a slight loss of dynamics. Especially the flat ones on the p24 caused a lot of loss. iirc this is a known issue of ferrites. Now i just have a few small ones on the p4, pico, ssd, monitor-dvi-cable and powercords.
I stopped experimenting when i read about your experiments with the filters. i ordered them, but didn't have time yet to implement (and when i have don it, i regret i didn't do it before; it's an ongoing process...).
Besides that i tried sikorel and Elna-SilmicII caps on the p4 (pico already capped). Didn't work; sounded slightly better without caps.
BTW i can recommend bypassing all caps on mobo like JackWong did: sq boosted!
I hope to build a new cmp during christmas holidays, atom-based, headless. Lots of questions to think about (XPslimming, battery-psu for memory), especially about networking on which i'm a noob.
I'll report on the filters, but that may take some time.
Douwe
Hi Douwe,
Thank you for your feedback.
When reading your reply, first thing that sprang too mind was: ‘it is very strange that Douwe’s computer needs UHF polluted DC too sound good’.
Ferrites can effectively provide high resistance (‘filter’) for UHF from approx 80 mHz too 300 Mhz (when applied correctly and depending on type off ferrite material used).
Have you any idea why this UHF pollution on the DC power supply lines, makes your computer sound better ?
“iirc this is a known issue of ferrites”
Are you really sure about that? I also read this at regular intervals. But I feel this is a misconception from the analogue audio domain which now (unfortunately) also is projected onto the digital audio domain.
Although I did not do/tried it myself, I can easily understand in terms of extra ‘power supply noise suppression’ and extra ‘decoupling’ how bypassing all caps on the mobo will boost SQ.
But I lack the ‘micro’ soldering skills too do this.
I also do believe that powering memory separately will boost SQ.
But is this because memory needs cleaner power which somehow results in better sound quality?
Or is it because in the process Jack is also removing a noise source?
In this case I find it hard too differentiate between ‘cause’, and ‘effect’ (and possibly also ‘symptoms’).
Why do you choose for an atom based setup?
I haven’ compared atom based mobo’s with the latest 1155 chipset mobo’s myself.
But I feel it is definitely worth to try Jackwongs suggestion using a 1155 based mobo with a 1155 socket Celeron dual core. Jackwong reported that this computer setup sounded best in his system.
I think (not sure yet) I will try it myself in a few weeks.
Half a year ago I also changed too using my Gigabyte G41M based cMP setup headless.
This allowed me too get rid of using USB.
While on the same time giving a lot of convenience controlling the cMP setup through my android tablet and smartphone (through using VNC)
Using the VGA output too my Sony KDL-37/W4000 TV has absolutely no impact on SQ.
Also using LAN has absolutely no impact on SQ.
But using USB does have a negative impact on SQ.
This can easily be heard in my setup.
Reducing the polling USB frequency (as found by Ryelands) does give some SQ improvement.
But disabling USB all together in BIOS and XP gives an even greater SQ improvement.
And going headless through using an android tablet is sooo convenient !!
I would not put much effort in XP slimming.
I see no ration behind it.
I consider it as shooting in the dark, hoping you hit something.
And surely you hit something because the results are stunning as reported by other inmates with good equipment and ears.
But one also does totally cripple the cMP machine.
There has too be a more clever way.
I feel a much better approach could be:
1. check with process explorer which files and processes are being used while running cmp + cPlay.
2. Than compare this list it with the list of files Mihaylov’s is running.
Mihaylov’s file list see: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/9/99505.html
3. Subtract: 1. (process explorer file list) minus 2. (Mihaylov’s file list) = file deletion list.
I will try this somewhere coming weeks.
If you ever manage to find out why your setup needs UHF polluted DC too sound good, let us know.
It’s very intriguing, why it does need it.
Mark
Hi Mark, thanks for your post
On the ferrites
I don't know why too much ferrite chokes dynamics, i'm not audio engineer. So i just try and listen, keeping what works.
As you know i use sla-batteries and inverters (to 220v). For the analogue parts i use sinus-inverters; for the digital parts (cmp-machine) block-inverters sound much better! Less filtering, more open sound. Maybe this is an explanation, i really don't know.
I'm very curious about your UHF-shunt: what did it bring you and where did you put it?
On the Atom
- cpu frequency matters. In my former and current machines (Asus-socket A and Intel-1156) cpu-frequency makes a lot of difference. This particular atom-board (asrock ad525pv3) can go as low as 900MHz. Besides that has a very detailed bios (unlike most atoms) and tweakable memory-settings.
- This atom board has no unneeded chips and unneeded functions
- i don'n need 24/192; 16/88 is ok. atom can do this.
- the board is very simple (elegant?). i think i can tweak cpu-psu (lowdrops in stead of 78xx). Besides that: only one powerphase, so no/less switching (i suppose) between phases.
- Ryelands has very good experience with atom
- low power, so easier to battery-psu
- last but not least: learning is as important as sq to me. i just want to try and hear. If it is not good, i'll change to 1155. As jackwong is working on GA-H55M-USB3 (my current board) we have some same reference.
I'll report the results when ready.
I'm looking forward to going headless CMP, my current dualboot setup alows me to go headless in Windows 7. Very convenient!!
What about safety: isn't it very vulnerable when connected to the www? or do you have a closed network with dedicated nas and router? (i'm sorry, networking is not my strongest field)
you should try capping the mobo, just try out on an old mobo. I'm not very experienced, it's not that difficult. Just take time and use tape to hold the caps on the mobo before (and while) soldering. This is another argument for atom: only 20-25 caps to bypass.
You are right about usb: i never used it because of negative impact on sq.
about slimming XP: lets just see what it brings. For me its ok if it gets smaller than 1GB: i ordered a 1gb SATA SSD DOM (disk on module). Bot wow, the 36 mb of Rickmcinnis is very intriguing. I like non-rational solutions, but your approach is very interesting. Please report the results!
Oh, about the UHF: i think my setup and psu is so clean that, in order to sound natural, it just begs for a little pollution ;))
Douwe
Douwe
Thankx for your response. I enjoy the communication.
I’m also in computeraudio for learning combined with hobby.
I'm not sure what you mean with: UHF-shunt.
I just use ferrite clamp-on beads (combined with caps to create a 2nd order filter). I don't think that is the same as 'shunting'
Here I lack the knowledge of an EE or any other indebt knowledge of electronics too understand what you extacly mean.
I’m agricultural engineer. (I now can hear you laughing, but in the Netherlands this is a real degree. :-) )
“ Oh, about the UHF: i think my setup and psu is so clean that, in order to sound natural, it just begs for a little pollution ;)) “
Well, no kidding, I already thought of some kind of ‘dither’ effect.
About your atom mobo choice.
I now understand your choice for it.
I also don’t care for re- or upsampling or hig res.
I even don’t play FLAC files.
I convert FLAC files too WAV-files
I use a 2 Tb NAS, so why bother about storage space.
It is also my experience that running at low speeds indeed has some positive effect on SQ
But…. Just for that, you can still go with a Gigabyte MoBo
I run mine at 600 mhz. No kidding. See picture.
So on a GA-H55M-USB3 you should be able too go as low.
Although I have never used one, I agree the Atom boards appear to be nice mobo’s for audio PC or even HTPC’s
About going headless.
I guess I have a standard home LAN setup
WWW <-> modem/router <-> LAN 1 Gbps Swith <-> cMP PC
The routing from my android Tablet too my headless cMP is:
Android Tablet <-> LAN WiFi Acces Point <-> 1 Gbps Swith <-> cMP PC
There is also a firewall in my modem/router (as in any modem/router nowadays)
So I don’t care about security issues and safety on my cMP computer.
On my cMP is not any information that has any value too others.
On my small Kingstone 16 Gb SSD there is only an XP instalment optimized for music.
So I really don’t care about safety issues on my cMP
So if you have a WiFi Acces Point on your home LAN,
Just don’t care about safety and do try an android Tablet or smartphone as a wireless remote.
Mark
Hi Mark, thanks for reassuring about LAN-safety, i enjoy the conversation too!
I found a picture of your UHF-shunt (or maybe it was HF-shunt) on your picassa-page, which i cannot find now. You didn't post on it, only the picture about shunting HF to earth or so. And of course, as an agricultural engineer, you know everything about earth and grounding and stuff, so i wondered...
600MHz is great! H55M-bios cannot go below 900 MHz; i chose it for the quiet cpu-psu (ic's in stead of rattling 78xx). Downside is it's crowded with unneeded chips: dvi, hdmi, usb-3, ide, even Floppy-slot. Wouldnot recommend it.
I will let you know when i finished atom-set, maybe you can have a listen when you're in amsterdam.
cheers!
Douwe
An agricultural engineer is never laughable. I myself am a trained mechanical engineer trying to become an electrical/computer technician. At any rate you are right learning new stuff is half the fun. When I was working I tended to spend way too much on audio. Now that I am retired I see that very little expenditure (in most cases no expenditure) which can cause way bigger sq changes.
This is with Watchdog.sys deleted as well or Retained? I have already deleted Watchdog.sys from my System32. Would it still be effective?
Junaid
Junaid! You have managed to delete a watchdog.sys with the system working?
I couldn't. It would always go to a black screen on startup and immediate reboot. It must have been with Mihaylov's tweak, but watchdog controls video process on booting. Does it mean that you also managed to delete bootvid.dll?
Serge
I'm so sorry. It was a mistake. I just came home & checked. Watchdog.sys is not deleted. I thought I did. Sorry for the confusion..
Junaid
Junaid! There were so many files, no wonder, you could have forgotten.
I am just thinking about bitch bat. This beast is something to be really very carefull with. What if some more registry tweaks would come up? What if somebody would like to reinstall drivers and so on. The beast should be created, but please, don't be in a hurry and give some time for testing. Let others post their propositions of the logical order of this routine.
I will send you my Lynx files on Sunday, if I may.
Serge
Sure I will. All that has to be done, is to send me the names of files which are present in steppes 1 to 22, Jolida 1& 2, and Mihaylov 1,2 & 3, WITHOUT whom either Juli@, Lynx, Asus & Network would not work..
Junaid
Hi Jolida,
I haven’t deleted the watchdog.sys file
(personally I see no point in (more or less) randomly deleting files in an attempt too improve SQ. I like a more rational approach)
Reading your question on effectiveness, first thing that springs too mind is: your system should let you hear if this tweak has any effect or has no effect.
In my setup the tweak had a very noticeable and profound positive effect on SQ.
The effect on SQ can easily be heard.
So my guess would be: if you can’t hear the effect on SQ, than there is no effect.
Mark
I haven't tried it yet. Will probably try this evening. My only concern was if watchdog.sys was deleted or not..!!
Junaid
It is necessary to create REG_DWORD entries! The right screenshot:
Serge.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/
My cMP2: Windows XP SP2 Ru, Gigabyte GA-H55M-UD2H, Intel Core i3-530, Corsair CM3X160C9DHX 1GB, system drive - Transcend IDE FLASH MODULE TS2GDOM40V-S, ESI Juli@, full linear PSU, NAS - WD My Book Liv
Edits: 11/30/11
With Ryelands help I was able to finally do this and the sound is fantastic. Yes noise is lower but its more than that: very lively with inner detail revealed..not hard...spacious...and even better bass than prior level. Serge how do you find these gems! Thank you.After listening a bit the soundstage sounds very open and big: wider and deeper. Its almost like I got a bigger power supply somewhere in the chain. Well done again.
Edits: 11/30/11
Ok I went toHKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Watchdog\Display\BreakPointDelay
as per the link and all I have is
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Watchdog\Display
with nothing that looks like BreakpointDelay within Dispay. So what am I doing wrong here? Do I click on any of the stuff in the right hand pane to get BreakPointDelay to show?
Edits: 11/30/11
I'm in marathon ripping today. Its a brand new world post steppe 22 et al because I have to pull the hdd, put it in another computer via the docking station (what a brilliant tool this has been...thanks ryelands)and so on...but I will try later today. This really sounds promising.
While I'm ripping I'm listening to my other hdd's on the first day with a good clean poweline and I want to tell you the Lost and Last Reg tweaks are really outstanding...dynamics, space, beautiful highs and tight bass...what more could an audiophile want!! Thank you Steppe!
Cant wait for the watchdog--catcher.
BTW for those that still think pc audio is behind traditional cd playback ought to hearing what the mermaid is singing today.
Please, check the sound change
I've tested the tweak by listening to familiar recordings first with the tweak made then with it removed then with it replaced. The change is very noticeable and, in my setup at least, definitely for the better.
It's too early to say that it works without fail on every system and all that but it's certainly sounding good here. My wife, who had no idea what I was changing and cares even less, confirms the result. That's no proof of course but it's encouraging.
Clever, these mermaids.
Thanks.
Dave
Wondered if you had tried.
Hi! Most probably, it won't. I haven't tried, as I can't allow myself to crash the work machine. But at least this change stops the barking and howling for 24 hours.
Serge.
I created the keys and set the values. No problems on startup and plays with seeming lower noise floor as very,very quiet bowing in Vasks quartet at the beginning of 4th movt of String Quartet 3, which is marvelous by the way, is now audible clearly. I have to listen more and at a different time as well to be sure I am not talking myself into this. Surely no harm done so I will let the sleeping dog lie in any case.
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