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In Reply to: RE: Has anyone used both the LYNX and JULI@ cards? posted by rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com on October 13, 2011 at 11:59:44
Rick,I can't answer your question of whether the Lynx would be better than an optimized Juli@. But I've been looking at the Juli@ again over the last couple of weeks with an eye to what is right about it and what can be improved. And I'm looking at what the next level of upgrades and modifications might look like.
For the the Juli@'s positives attributes, we have the following:
1. It looks to be designed pretty well, with a multi-layer circuit board and even stock, a fairly sophisticated power regulation and bypassing scheme. An example of this is how it is designed to work and sound good even though it's intended to be powered by the computer power supply via the computer motherboard power rails. That it works as well as it does in this environment means the designers did SOMETHING right!
2. It does provide a lot of flexability in being able to output I2S and SPDIF, along with being usable via it's analog outputs (in a pinch).
3. It can be modified fairly easily for better performance.
4. It is sufficiently inexpensive that one doesn't feel too bad taking the risk of killing the card while modifying.
5. And as a bonus, you have the K&K I2S interface which allows you to bring the I2S out of the computer and connect to a remote DAC. I'm not sure how well it compares to a short cable (<3") and a close DAC (an option not available for most), but I have a lot of respect for the K&K guys (and the PS Audio ones too) and know that they wouldn't put it out if it was bad.
But the Juli@ does have the following drawbacks:1. It does a lot of things not needed if you are using it only for an computer-to-DAC interface, especially if you are using the I2S bus. This means you have components that you don't need that are potentially degrading the signal quality and is true both for the hardware and the driver software. It DOES help that you can remove the analog card and it's devices.... too bad you can't do the same for the driver processing associated with the analog output.
2. PCI looks to be end-of-life, as you found with the latest motherboards either not having a PCI slot or using a PCI-e to PCI bridge (which HAS to be bad for SQ).
I think that the Steppe & Jolida Windows Slimmings do some positive things to reduce the extraneous processing in the Juli@ (or any sound card) processing stream. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that you'd be able to run the Juli@ Control Panel after you've gotten very far down the Windows slim-down path.
I also think that the mods that I and others have posted for the Juli@ digital section go a significant way in reducing the impact of the excess complexity AND also the impact of it being a sound card powered by the computer's power supply via the computer motherboard rails.
What I'm working towards right now are a further set of mods that can take the Juli@ a few notches better, building on the ones I've generally done in the past and the clock mods shown by Mihaylov.
I'll be starting a sub-thread over in the cMP thread about this soon.
But finally Rick, after saying all of this, if you are looking for the best available alternative today to getting an I2S stream out of the computer, look at an EXAU21. Reviews have been very positive (including a couple comparing it to somewhat-modified Juli@) and it costs $430 CDN, significantly less than the Lynx. AND being a USB interface, it won't have the PCI end-of-life problem. AND since it is designed to ONLY produce an I2S datastream coming out of the computer, it starts with a lot less extraneous complexity that can impact the SQ. And it will need less work than either a Juli@ or a Lynx to serve it's best in that role.
And I almost forgot to mention that the EXAU21 provides galvanic isolation between the computer and the DAC (and I don't believe the K&K I2S interface does this... NOTE that I was not correct on this, while the K&K interface does not provide isolation, the K&K RAKK DAC does have isolation at its I2S inputs. This is important as this is the DAC Rick uses).
Also, since it mounts at the end of a USB cable, it provides another way to bring the I2S to a remote DAC.
These are two more important benefits of the device.
The positive comments about this new interface are what have prompted me to take a closer look at how to get the best out of the Juli@.
This is probably more like $2.37 instead of my $0.02.
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Edits: 10/13/11 10/13/11 10/14/11 10/14/11Follow Ups:
Thanks for the help.
I have not compared the two though it would be easy enough.
As soon as I get something working I find myself more interested in listening than playing further.
Have you tried using JULI@ without CONTROLLER installed? That would be useful since it is totally useless when one is using the LUCY Latency thing.
Knowing how Dave has incorporated galvanic isolation with the SPDIF input I would be surprised if the HDMI approach does not offer this also, but I have no idea. I will ask him.
I started out with USB and found JULI@ a revelation so I am hesitant to go back to USB. If someone I trust says it is great, THEN that's another story; I am not going to give it a try until then.
My JULI@ sounds fine for the moment. I worry about its future. The price cannot be beat. I see them now for $125.00. I think I paid more for my first one.
Rick,Sorry, I think I gave two wrong impressions.
First, I do think I2S is the better way to connect to a Juli@ as long as you do it right... either a short connection or using K&K's setup as you are. SPDIF has to go through additional devices and processing to get out of the Juli@ & of course, goes through a conversion back to I2S at the input of most DACs.
I do agree with you that Theob's I2S setup was likely not optimal.
Second, I was only assuming that the Juli@ Control Panel would not run after one got far enough into the Steppe Windows Slimming-down... and Theob corrected me in that he has gotten through Steppe 16 and still could access the Juli@ Control Panel.
Then on galvanic isolation with the K&K I2S connection, while the connection circuits are NOT isolated, the RAKK DAC's I2S input IS. This is from pages 6&7 of the manual... and it has some additional grounding/isolation information that might be useful, but that I need to digest. I do intend to try isolation on my I2S lines at some point, but I plan to work other areas first including doing additional filtering on the motherboard (Ala JackWong) to reduce the need for that isolation.
And that your setup already has galvanic isolation on the I2S lines MAY mean that you are already getting better sound quality using the Juli@ than the rest of us with lesser DACs.
Finally, while I instinctively like PCI over USB as an interface, I believe that any number of recent USB interfaces, especially with some modifications, will work well. And as at least two people have commented, they found the EXAU21 a significant improvement over their modified Juli@ cards. I still think that the Juli@ can be raised to that level. But I can't discount their impressions.
(And for a very informative set of comments about the relative benefits of different interfaces for getting music out of a computer, read John Swenson's comments in this thread: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=90268. If it doesn't make your head hurt, you are either much smarter than all the rest of us like John appears to be or you just didn't read it closely enough!)
Later!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Edits: 10/14/11 10/14/11
Happy you are back into music...what Steppe are you at? I had been using I2S (for about a year) but went back to spdif which I prefer. However I'm sure my I2S implementation was not the best.
I kept screwing around with "cleverness" and then took Junaid's advice and did it the old fashioned way.
Listening to STEPPE 5 last night to get a baseline and tonight I will go further.
Yes, I do think the implementation of I2S you were using was dicey.
I am intrigued by "losing" CONTROLLER. I guess I could give it a try but if Greg has already done the experiment ... I am a little shy of experimentation at the moment!
I wonder if SOUND requires setupapi.dll? If not, and doing without CONTROLLER works, then it would be good to be able to delete setupapi.dll.
I am assuming you had to put that one back, too, to get your system to work?
Let me know.
Bye,
You said: '...I am intrigued by "losing" CONTROLLER. I guess I could give it a try but if Greg has already done the experiment ... I am a little shy of experimentation at the moment!...'
What Controller are you talking about?
You said: '... wonder if SOUND requires setupapi.dll? If not, and doing without CONTROLLER works, then it would be good to be able to delete setupapi.dll.
I am assuming you had to put that one back, too, to get your system to work?...'
I have put setupapi back in yes. I have left Sound and wdmaud.drv out. But wmdaud.sys is in. I believe it sounds better with this combination ims.
So u made a fresh installation of xp, made all optimisations as per cics website, & implemented the batch files getting to steppe 5 ?? I hope u went in this order :-
1. Optimised cMP
2. Steppe2
3. Steppe 3
4. Steppe 4
5. Jolida1
6. Jolida 2
7. Steppe 5...
Is that right ??
Junaid
do you think it would make any difference?
I finally made an image of the cMP Optimized WINDOWS! I will make another of this STEPPE 5 version tonight before going further.
First I deleted the folders you have in Step 1!
Seems to me as long as deletions and registry changes are close to each other it would not make much difference.
Consider xmiprovi which you deleted early on and STEPPE delete almost at the end of his published recommendations AND looking at the files deleted with Serge's and your recommendations compared to BOLD FORTUNE who recommends deleting many of these same files all at once.
Just curious why you think the order, at the beginning, has importance. Towards the end I would tend to agree there is some merit. Just an instinctual assumption. I have no real idea one way or the other!
How far have you proceeded with BF? Have you deleted further files after STEPPE 5?
THANKS!
Well well... I'm in a moment of shock at the moment. Did something that made me realise how deceiving a human notion can get. If I post it here, it would raise a debate, because it's way beyond our expectation. But it's an eye-opener & a wake up call that displays a message that reads " My friend, u r a human, & u r bound to get carried away"...
I know what I've written above would puzzle u as well as others who read this post. But it's about time we get to reality.
In the meantime, I suggest u stick on to step 5, as u already have. I will keep u posted !!
Junaid
I hope I did not say something offensive.
I cannot tell if you are having fun or being serious OR not really responding to my post at all O R have come across something close to "mind-blowing".
Talk about cryptic!
I will try to patiently wait for the explanation.
In the meantime I will make an image of FIVE and play with BF tonight.
Do tell.
Great analyses of the juli@. You bring up a real good point about pci as we go forward. I had been toying with the exau21 idea as a substitute for juli@ based on the great customer reviews on DIYaudio. You make a strong case for the exau21 vs another pci soundcard. One minor point though is I have gone pretty much Steppe 1-16 and I can still access the juli@ control panel fyi. What is the K&K I2S interface ?
Thanks Theob.
The K&K I2S interface is a couple of small circuit cards that transmits and receives the I2S signal across an HDMI cable. K&K Audio makes it (they also make the DAC that Rick McI uses). You can get more info in these threads:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=kandk&m=8778
and
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=kandk&m=8609
and
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=kandk&m=8522
BTW, I forgot to mention the galvanic isolation between the computer and the DAC provided by the EXAU21 and also it's inherent ability (using the USB cable) to bring the I2S to a remote DAC... two other important benefits. I'll update my post above with these.
Later!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
Thanks I also saw your other post.
Edits: 10/14/11
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