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In Reply to: RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO posted by cics on May 05, 2008 at 13:31:58
Hello, everybody. Knowing that many are really impatient, I post now this tweak, hoping You, inmates, will find the way to finish it. (Please take note that I am posting only things I managed to achieve).
It started with Mario's brilliant idea of using reshacker to remove icons and stuff. He posted a link to a forum where folks were discussing it, and one of them suggested using in win XP a shell32.dll file from win2k. Mario wrote to me he wasn't ready to create such a monster, but I was.
Shell32.dll is the biggest file. I have managed to subsyitute it with w2k pro version (no sp). after appr. 7 attempts. It's current size iz 1,17 mb. I DON'T KNOW HOW I managed it as I started adding more and more files from w2k. It still remains a mystery unsolved by me and Rick. I was waiting if he would suggest some final version of the registry slimming, and meanwhile Jack Wong and afterwards Riboge and others started working with XP Home edition. As not all the files were fitting from w2k, I tried to substitute others from xpHome.
The following is the list of files from both OSs that can be substituted. The resulting windows folder (with registry deletions performed according to Rick) and with registry compacted according to Ted is 19,6 MB. Though I must confess, it doesn't work, but because I have deleted too much from the registry. FILE SUBSTITUTIONS WORK.
Please note that the files are to be substituted in the order they are suggested (THE CAPITALS are for w2k others are for xpHome)
SHLWAPI.dll
WINSPOOL.DRV
USERENV.DLL
COMCTL32.dll
COMDLG32.32
SHELL32.DLL
WLDAP32.DLL
lsass.exe only together with lsasrv.dll
samlib.dll only together with samsrv.dll
rpcrt4.dll Only after two sam files
services.exe
svchost.exe
FRAMEBUFF.DLL
SCESRV.DLL
advapi32.dll
ole32.dll - you know how I "love" OLE
netapi32.dll
ntdsapi.dll
MPR.DLL
MSASN1.DLL
WINSTA.DLL
WS2_32.DLL
sxs.dll
umpnpmgr.dll
crypt.dll
secur32.dll
msvcp60.dll
NTOSKRNL.EXE (if you retain ntkrnlpa) This file can be substituted by w2k no sp version but rename it and add in the beginning of boot.ini string /KERNEL= yourname.exe. add also /nopae and /minint. (a must)
Best recommended to use xp-pro kernel - it really sounds better, but with ntkrnlpa.exe removed.
That's all.
Serge
P.S. So, if anyone can find the way to substitute shell32 from w2k, will really help others. I can't remember How I did it, But I did it.
Don't touch user32.dll, win32k.sys.
Follow Ups:
Hi Serge,
Is there a way too check which kernel is actually loaded at startup?
(Situation A)
It is my impression that if one retains the ntkrnlpa, the boot.ini string “/KERNEL= yournamekernel.exe “ is ignored and the ntkrnlpa.exe is still loaded (despite the boot.ini string).
(Situation B)
If I rename the exe-file extensions from botch ntkernelpa.exe and ntoskernel.exe too *.bac and put the ntoskernel.exe (w2k-version) in place, I get an error message at startup there are DLL’s missing.
If in situation A the ntoskernel.exe from w2k was loaded through use of the boot.ini string, than I should have gotten that same error.
But I didn’t got that error.
So an alternative kernel is loaded in situation A.
Probably the ntkrnlpa.exe because it is retained.
Mark
cMP2 PC > ESI Juli@ > Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII > Lavry Black DA10 > XLR Mogami Gold > Klein & Hummel O300
to load yourname with ntoskrnl.exe present or with ntkrnlpa present. In both cases you need at least one native kernel to be present. Nt loader checks to see that you have at least one. To, say load w2k kernel with ntkrnlpa and to be sure it is w2k kernel, that is at work, specify /KERNEL=yourname.exe in the beginning of the string AND /nopae closer to the end - this comand FORCES nt to start with either ntoskrnl.exe or with alternative one. If you retain ntoskernl.exe and delete ntkrnlpa, then use /kernel=yourname.exe, but at any time ONE NATIVE should be present, thus any time with alternative kernel there are TWO kernel a native one and alt. one, But to use and load in memory ONLY ONE kernel, use your native ntoskernel.exe from xp. This way, though it's bigger you assure the best memory-cpu interaction and absence of the secondary kernel in memory. It seems to me it sounds more robust, vivid but without harshness, while with w2k and ntoskernel(native) together the sound is smmother but slightly dull.
Serge.
P.S. Hope it's not confusing.
I tried as you suggest: "If you retain ntoskernl.exe and delete ntkrnlpa, then use /kernel=yourname.exe" taking it to mean I rename ntoskrnl.exe, say to ntriboge.exe, then remove ntkrnlpa and in boot.ini up front put /KERNEL=ntriboge.exe. Is this correct?, because it didn't work causing cycling of startup just like simply removing ntkrnlpa. My computer may somehow be different because I was also able to substitute win2k ntoskrnl without /kernel and renaming.
I also tried leaving in /KERNEL=ntriboge.exe while not renaming ntoskrnl.exe just to see (since your instruction is a little ambiguous) but no surprise that did no better.
Any suggestions?
rename xp native ntoskernl. It should remein unchanged. Once you do it You get a black screen on reboot and you will have to remove the file and paste it back, also remove all logs that were created by registry hive.
in othe words you have 4 kernel options
1, two native kernels
2. one native kernel. but only ntoskrnl.exe and /nopae switch
3. w2k + ntkrnlpa + /nopae switch
4. w2k + ntoskrnl
Leave at least one native kernel unchanged
5. option to use only native ntkrnlpa can be possible but you need 4 gb physical ram, /PAE and /3GB switches.
Hope, this is it.
Serge.
When I try to do your 2., as I said, I do not get a black screen but a restart before anything shows up over and over until hard shutdown. This is with renamed ntoskrnl.exe and no ntkrnlpa and with /nopae. Nonetheless I will go on to cut and then past ntoskrnl.exe and remove all hive logs and see what happens.
That it should be THE NATIVE kernel. Don't give its name to alternative one. ntoskrnl.exe should ALWAYS be the real native one.
Serge.
As for e-mail, some things were made there that make a lot of cics' optimisations done or unnecessary, but the services were untouched, and some othet things, so You better treat it as a minixp. It should install easily and without oobe, serial, regs and so on. Video was already set, most things removed. When installing weiss or other things, be patient, please, it takes looonger. Awe and minlogon should work like a charm as they were described. WFP was already removed. There is also a session.ini file that you may see what was done, if you have nlite, just load the ini files from the iso. It's very easy to navigate.
Serge.
Without ntkrnlpa I have, of course, only been trying with the native ntoskrnl. I tried it after cut and paste and removal of hive logs both as "ntoskrnl.exe" and as "ntriboge.exe" with /KERNEL=ntriboge.exe but neither got anything but recycling restart as before.
The nlite xp allowed Weiss install normally as well as Intel ethernet install and that for cMP/cPlay, but it did not recognize the net command in command window despite network running.
I thought you had stated previously that ntkrnlpa was insufficient by itself. If that is so "to be sure it is w2k kernel, that is at work, specify /KERNEL=yourname.exe in the beginning of the string" would seem unnecessary if one has removed native xp ntoskrnl and is using win2k one with ntkrnlpa.
If that is not the case, then why not use just ntkrnlpa on purpose?
hfavandepas, there IS a reason: you might prefer the sq even though steppe doesn't. I like it that way but have not so far gotten a successful try at using the original kernel alone to see whether or not I find it better myself.
nt
cMP2 PC > ESI Juli@ > Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII > Lavry Black DA10 > XLR Mogami Gold > Klein & Hummel O300
...all I can say is that your voicing ability to tweak an os for audio purposes is phenomenal. All the tradeoffs between too crisp or too soft I mentioned in earlier posts are gone. This is the best. I am only somewhat sentimental in that this sadly may be the end of the journey. But oh what a finish you have brought us to dear friend Serge. You are a master tweaker Steppe: very, very well done. As I type I am listening to Diane Krall...your kitty would have been proud of you and proud of what DK sounds like right now.
I know I know you are working on something else now...the next tweak. But if you want to take a break this is the right time. I just wish Cics could hear the heights to which you have brought Cplay/cmp.
all this, that I am listening to her "Girl In The Other Room" too, right now. And a new kitty is right here. She is still young but also likes music. But her faves are Can from Germany and Steely Dan. I was listening to the French Military marches yesterday you've mentioned before. A very educational thing to listen to, soundwise. As for new tweaks, yeah, I KNOW what else can be done, but it NEEDS a serious programmer. I'd like to rewrite cmp as a Rootkit, only in the best sense of the world. Also, for Windows xp to work and load rootkit at boottime, it doesn't need anything but 5-6 files. no lsass, no svchost, no nothin'
Serge.
P.S. I am happy, that you find the sound good.
P.P.S. I now know what the writers mean when they write it's a sad thing to have lost a good enemy.
Why, But THERE ARE drivers yet to try to substitute, like videoport.sys and dxg.sys...
...you guys are going to hate this but the sound tightened up significantly but now may be too zippy. I'm thinking I may have to do all the file substitutions now or go back to my original registry (for session manager /memory). Funny thing this computer audio stuff.
Rick was your session manager /memory registry like Segre's or like mine? I checked my desktop which is a win xp home and its registry was like mine and not Serge's. So I'm not sure which is right.
.
No remote viewing here ...
I showed in this post. Look at bottom 4 or 5.
of substitutions should com from the following files:
shlwapi
ole32
shell32
framebuff.dll
lsass-lsasrv
scesrv
sxs
authz
and especially from services.exe, svchost.exe, secur32, msvcp60 and crypt.dll
So, It's not the size that matters! But presence in memory and service strings/threads or whatever they call them that are EXPORTED by the files.
My registry session manager snapshots were initially for Rick only, but if You find them helpfull, they are for everybody.
Also, Rick, If you use 3rd stage extreme bios settings, be sure I sometimes also get a bsod while listening and the soundcard starts stutter-hammer like a small pneumatic hammer.
Serge.
Edits: 01/21/12
everything to do with BIOS.
I got a new message today: DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL.
Now whether that is due to my registry experiments or BIOS will remain a mystery.
No stutter, though I used to get that from using batch files which is when I lost interest in them, but a squeal.
Starts right back up.
What is neat about the H61 board is that it will start with "third stage" memory settings. No need for the intermediate step.
Not driving me crazy - it can go hours before it does it.
I changed my session manager memory settings to Steppes. It booted ok will listwen and report my on my sonics. Rick that is a great offer but I dont even have that mobo. Still have the old G31-s2el for the 45 nm hardware.
Here is my registry. Look at bottom 4, some not even shown on your's Serge.
Edits: 01/21/12
Access to the network was denied with these substituted and returned when I reverted.
I got shlwapi.dll substitution to work with version supplied by steppe which was slightly smaller but also from win 2k pro source.
Who knows what the problem was?
This time no complaints at all.
Substituted all in three operations. No problems at all.
I do think it sounds better. I was becoming skeptical due to my frustration with the win2k shell32 refusing to work. But now I can see what you are talking about. Yet another increase in clarity and good tone.
Found the reason I could not do some of the registry deletions - I had had /minint in the boot.ini before and took it out when you said I should. I put it back in since it was the only difference in the two set-ups (between h55 and h61) and deletions stay deleted.
My WINDOWS folder is now 23,076,605 bytes. Config - 416kB.
I still have some RESOURCE HACKING to do but I see no way I will get the folder below 20mB. A few more items to be removed in the config, too.
I do, and had been, getting a blue screen that can show up at any time. It could be fifteen minutes or hours, no rhyme or reason. It could be (still) because of my BIOS settings or some other setting, Says something about paging area - I will write it down next time. Not a big problem. Starts right back up.
I did 4 or 5 files from w2k and the result was very good sonically. Then with the Steppe files I basically substituted only those files which showed a large (> 50kb) size reduction for everything in my system32 folder. I did it in 3 steps. Only major files I did not do was shell32 and winspool. The sonics progressively got softer (not in a bad way), almost as if a tube stage was introduced into my system. The negatives in sonics: deep bass lost a little punch and extension, soundstage and depth shrunk a little. The positives in sonics: just like in tubes the mids and upper mids and highs became mellower/sweeter (more sweet?). So it depends where you are in the spectrum of on the one side of tight/crisp all the way through mellow/sweet on the other end of the spectrum that in my opinion will determine what and how much of these substitutions you might like. I found a good balance for me/my system. I probably did all but maybe 4 or 5 files including those mentioned above. All in all a very worthwhile tweak...thank you Serge!
The first was session manager - memory. This one is session manager itself.
Serge
I will try these registry settings. I have a very different session manager - memory. I forgot to mention that I got no BSOD's as Rick did. Rick did you get these while booting or while listening to music?
accompanied by a squeal!
Booting is never a problem.
I think I just finished getting the last of what I know I can eliminate from the registry (thanks to Mihaylov on both counts due to /minint and his original road map) and after using the compressor my config is 398 kB.
Now to see if the problem re-occurs. It is annoying but not alarming, other than the squeal! Starts right back up after an incident.
By the way, WHERE is Mihaylov?
As far as sonics I suspect my complete happiness (for the moment until the ear/brain wants more of something to keep the charade of music reproduction interesting) is my use of horn loudspeakers. Softening is never a problem with horns!
There may be softening but unlike some tube softening there is more information making its way through the electronic maze.
Also, at this point I think I can safely say with no qualms that the H61 board Jack Wong recommended is truly superior to the H55. For those wanting to get a little closer this should be procured.
Ted if you want the chips removed I would gladly do it.
I increased the IO thing to 20000 and there was one more that was different on the second suggestion.
Now to give it a try!
Thanks!
nt
Rick! When I was doing deletions according to your hives I have noticed a setting, I thought was strange - that is clear page cache or smth on shutdown. As cmp is using rpc, the system may have too little time to clear this cache and it is trying to restore the cache settings (not lost completely in the previous session) prior to booting. I think it's the legacy of nt 3,5 or 4. I remember from my printshop business times, if ever you abort a print job and force reboot, nt4 would restart with the spooler full and retrying a print job. Try to find this setting and remove (set to 0) in the system hive session manager, IIRC.
Serge.
It's here, I hope
ClearPageFileAtShutdown
It is in MEMORY MANAGEMENT.
My experience: I did win2k substitutions down to WLDAP32.DLL on your list. Shlwapi.dll caused a halt just before cMP saying cicsmemory player could not find dynamic links in shlwapi.dll.
Shell32.dll reshacked down to about 1.6MB from 2.2 loaded fine the first time.
With xp kernel and no ntkrnlpa.dll bootup kept auto-restarting from a very early point so was literally a non-starter. So I am back to win2k kernel with ntkrnlpa.dll.
This is all with a mini-xp installation, which is not getting the attention it deserves. It sounds the best I've heard and is much easier to setup and get great without slimming.
Hello, Have you substituted shlwapi.dll after all? Also, very impostant, have you substituted shell32 that was hacked in another folder? It seems, I have done smth. similiar, then hacked it to the end. What is now left inside your shell32? At what point in hacking shell32 other inmates should stop to insert it in place wo a problem?
Please MORE info, as I cannot recreate it myself, too.
About mini-XP... But You are wrong. It deserves indeed and is getting all due attention. It's nothing other than just somebody's well thought through universal NLITE installation. Mine is 98 mb and assures awe and minlogon and everything. The difference is that you are using a side product instead of using what is suggested here and in plenty of flavours specifically suited for our purpose. If You want, I will send you my ini files. Download nlite. Making an iso with it is MUCH easier than substituting files, kernel, reshacking them.
Also, yes such installations sound very good from the start, read Rick's and Junaid's posts. But after that we tweak such installations TO THE LIMIT, and this is another story soundwise. I only suggest that you delete all unnecessary files - see my pic. You will surelly hear the great difference. But, please, first give us more details on shell32,sir.
Serge.
I am glad that You find these tweaks usefull.
Edits: 01/20/12
There is not much to tell about shell32.dll. With reshacker I deleted all the animations and bmps and many of the icons. I refrained from taking on the dialogues and menus though clearly going a good bit further wouldn't be difficult. I did this to an shell32.dll extracted from a win2k .iso on my desktop computer then substituted the result into my mini-xp install on the laptop I use in lieu of a cMP box.
I passed on substituting shlwapi.dll since I don't see how given what I encountered. I can't try reinstalling cMP to work with the substituted shlwapi because I can't boot up with it.
I have read just about every post in the cPlay thread for many months so am familiar with all you write of. I have tried almost all of the tweaks and all your and Mihaylov's and Junaid's steps. The only 'further' step I haven't taken is the xplite very minimal install or rick's latest radical registry stripping. I had trouble over and over with attempts to reduce the registry before so hesitate at this. I also feel that at some point practicality comes in for me. If I can get 95% of the improvement and still retain some useful functions that are all foregone for the final 5%, which is where I thing I am now, I start questioning the worth of it beyond the 'science' of it, that is, the exploration and defining the limits that you and a few others have productively pursued to the great benefit of all of us. I care about every last bit of sound quality but not only that and not about having the least number of MB to my install per se.
I guess I would be willing to try the install you describe from things you send me, if you do, to see if perhaps it brings more than 5%. riboge@gmail.com
With shlwapi.dll and then usernv.dll I got a blue screen on startup saying the header checksum didn't match the computed checksum. I could not load these into reshacker either. Both were said by it to not be "win32 executable files". This also happened trying to reshack the ntoskrnl.exe that I have running already in my mini-cp install. What am I doing wrong and/or what can I do further to make substitutions? I am getting the win2k files by extraction from a win2k pro no sp .iso.
After you extract a .dll or whatever from the win2k .iso you then have to decompress it with winrar or the like to get the unpacked form. This reshacker will load and, I presume til I try it, will work as a substitute. This is puzzling a bit since I used for substitution ntoskrnl.exe I extracted previously without this unpacking step.
so we can be sure we have found the same files.
Then I think: you have have removed VERSION with RESOURCE HACKER!!!
I am thinking with file substitutions we might best keep VERSION attached to the files!!!!
I noticed you did not send frambuf and the .iso I found did not contain it OR it has a different name in there. All of the other files are quite obvious so this is a bit of a mystery.
I (thought I) went through all of the FOLDERS thinking it might be hiding in one of those.
Send it, please.
Serge,
If I sent you the folder with GRANT in the name that was as far as I went with it - I think it is CLOSE to being minimized for the H55 board. There might be one or two more things that could be found. It would takes hours of trial and error to find them. Since then I have been working on the H61's registry which seems more guarded as to what it will allow to be deleted.
Ted found a few additional items he could delete with his G31 system. I feel sure he will post what he found.
As Mihaylov cautions - each system is different (unless it is EXACTLY the same) so some might be able to do things others cannot.
The DEFAULT and SOFTWARE files I sent you seem to be universal for JULI@ systems - they drop right in. But as you found LYNX is another story. I should have mentioned that DEFAULT is absolutely universal if one is willing to accept what it does, which is not much different than what happens when one deletes EXPLORER. You no longer have the screen color you selected - seems MICROSOFT BLUE is the default color, which does not other me. I think it dubious that the power the monitor requires to produce a color has any effect on the sound quality.
Each SYSTEM is unique because of different HDD/SDD's even if the motherboard is the same.
I have been thinking that it would be interesting to compare a substituted win2k shell32 with an xpPRO shell32 with a minimized SOFTWARE registry. Yes, the unneeded junk is stll sitting in memory (which I think at this point is not terribly concerning) but most of what is DOES has been negated by the registry no longer allowing the functions to be accessed?
I will try again (and again) to get the win2k shell32 to work but I have a feeling it is likely cosmetic. I, too, gain some pleasure in seeing how small the WINDOWS folder can become but one wonders if at this point the real work has been done and we are removing straws from the camel's already broken back.
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