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In Reply to: RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO posted by cics on May 05, 2008 at 12:31:58
Hello, everybody! Here is a new set of simple actions that’ll bring our cmp-cplay sound to another level.
IT IS ASUMED, that you have already removed all the audio codecs and Windows file protection, and your Windows Shows Hidden Files!!!
1. Create a TMP folder on disk c (if you don’t have one yet), or any other, that you won’t forget about.
2. Inside this folder create subfolder System32
3. Inside System 32 create 2 folders:
Dllcache and Drivers (not case sensitive)
4. Locate (use Search) the following 16 files in your real (not tmp) Windows/system32 folder AND IN SUBFOLDERS (real Dllcache and Drivers, probably in some other windows/ folder)
NOTE: Some files have doubles. NOTE 2: triples and quadruples from *.cab files are unimportant, only real files are.
THE LIST OF 16 FILES:
audiosrv.dll, audstub.sys, avwav.dll, DMusic.sys, dswave.dll, Hdaudbus.sys, Hdaudio.sys, imaadp32.acm, mciwave.drv, MMSYSTEM.DLL, msacm32.drv, msadp32.acm, msaud32.acm, MSKSSRV.sys, SOUND.DRV , dmband.dll
5. Remove (Cut) these files from their native folders to your temp folder and into corresponding subfolders (ALL THE ABOVE STEPS are only a precaution in case you won’t like the tweak and would like to put the files back)
6. Run Settings>Control Panel>
7. Find your soundcard, and check what files for ASIO it uses. (my Lynx l22 uses 2 Microsoft files and 2 Lynx wdm files). Make sure that your soundcard does not use any of the files from the “remove” list. If It does, return it to its place.
8. Reboot, listen, please write back.
NOW SOME EXPLANATION
Up till now we’ve been cleaning Windows to let the pipline Cplay>ASIO>Kernel streaming run unimpeded. Cics made a great job. However, Kernel streaming itself is clogged with attached and unreported services that are like leeches on a mermaid’s ass or like fleas on a golden fleece. These services are from Direct X, Sound services and kernel audio “helpers”. Also there are two DRM descramblers, that I don’t know how to remove yet. By removing these files, some of which are of greater, some of lesser importance, we leave our KS beauty almost totally naked and busy with sound reproduction exclusively. Make these changes, I am sure, You won’t regret. There are some more relatively unimportant files to remove, but I came almost to the limit of my poor speakers’ resolution. So please, folks with really hi res speakers, report. I especially would appreciate feedback from folks with studio monitors.
The fun goes on, it seems.
Serge.
P.S. Tested with 16-44 wavs, not tested with asio4all
Follow Ups:
You preface with "IT IS ASUMED, that you have already removed all the audio codecs and Windows file protection" but I am unaware of a way to do the latter in sp3. You have many responses but no one asks about this so maybe I am missing something widely known. How do you disable or remove windows file protection when using XP Pro sp3?
maybe I am missing something widely known . . .
And the rest of us could well have it wrong but I suspect that Serge was just being circumspect (which, in this milieu, is welcome).
Whatever, if you have successfully implemented the minlogon change, you have (SP2 or SP3) "removed" WFP. If you haven't, do as you're told at the link - it's the same palaver with either SP and well worth the slight effort in both cases.
Part 1 (removing audio codecs in DevManager) is also trivial to do but IME equally worthwhile.
XPlite and the manual procedure that it automates are only for sp2 not 3. I used the method via safe mode that does not need wfp disabled to install minlogon.
So I am still looking for a way to follow Steppe's 2 with sp3. I have already dont step 1.
XPlite and the manual procedure that it automates are only for sp2 not 3.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that that was the case. But I don't see why you can't just locate and move/delete the files regardless using Explorer and/or the DOS prompt. After all, that's how we get rid of winlogon.exe in the first place . . .
If WFP is off (regardless of how you do it) and the backup files are removed from the dll cache, I don't see your problem. Sorry if I'm being dumb.
Dave
Doing minlogon setup one substitutes one winlogon file for another--so wfp is 'fooled'. Here one removes files without substituting. I did not think that in this case files would be removed from the caches. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me that it would work this way because if wfp reformulates what files to maintain at each startup how does it know to replace missing files? That is, I would expect it to replace what I removed rather than eliminate what I removed from caches. Do you KNOW otherwise from experience?
I would expect it to replace what I removed rather than eliminate what I removed from caches.
Yes, of course. That's why you have to delete any backup file from the cache as well as the working one from \system32.
Hence my earlier suggestion that you use the /s switch with the DIR command - you see where every copy of the file is located. As both \drivers and \dllcache are sub-folders of \system32, it's easy.
Do you KNOW otherwise from experience?
Well, yes, I think so (he said, blinking in the glare of the bright lamp shining in his eyes). OTOH, I can't see the roof falling in if you just give it a try. It's mostly how I got my experience, such as it is.
As ever, be sure to have to hand an up-to-date backup of the OS partition before you do anything like this.
D
Oh, I took your recommendation to mean that wfp would remove the files from the caches if I removed them from \system32 while it was off. I will try to remove them from all places in safe mode and restart and see what happens. I still wonder why wfp wouldn't call foul in that case causing error or startup failure: does it really only know which files to maintain by what is in the cache and not from some standard list it references?And the bright light in your eyes is to help you listen objectively, i.e., double-blind.
Edits: 08/22/11
I still wonder why wfp wouldn't call foul . . .
So do I. BTW, I see that litepc.com claims that XPLite "Supports . . . all XP service packs including SP3!"
does it really only know which files to maintain by what is in the cache
No idea. Why not ensure you have (and can use) an OS backup and just give it a go?
Best
Dave
at least on my cMP2 installation.
I have removed all the files Steppe listed except the duplicates in .cab files which I don't know how to cut from the .cab. The system only allows extraction of these which I believe leaves the driver in the cab and just allows a copy to be made. What I don't know yet is whether wfp can only replace these or also ones that were only in \system32 but not in a cache (at least that showed on a search).
I do believe I hear an improvement right off, but I need more listening as I first put on a great 24/192 album that sounds super no matter what.
my machine is SP2, not SP3 with WFP removed.
I do not remember hearing that WFP could not be removed from SP3 XP. I could have missed it.
I have gone back to check and the files are still "gone".
Not responding to RYELANDS, thought it best to put my comment in the next logical spot.
on my machine
Hdaudbus.sys
Hdaudio.sys
What am I doing wrong?
SEARCH finds the files on the computer I am using to write this note.
Could it have been removed earlier somehow? Some previous tweak?
Thanks,
I can't find Hdaudio.sys neither.
However I discovered, after numerous reboots and by the process of elimination, Hdaudbus.sys is the only file out of steppe's list that I need. Without it, there was no sound. I think this might have to do with the fact that I am an ASIO4ALL user.
Thanks again steppe for a most significant tweak. There is so much improvement in the middle range that the human voice is now much more realistic.
KC
I cannot find them either.
I understand that this driver High Definition Audio. If you have not installed the drivers for integrated sound card then you will not find these files.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/
d
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Apart from the two HD files, mine couldn't find avwav.dll either.
Mine was in the system32/dllcache folder.
I wonder what it is for.
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
I wonder what it is for.The dll cache is the place from which WFP takes a replacement file in the event of one of its brood being corrupted. With WFP disabled, it has no role. I've no idea why you don't have the folder but, as it can safely be deleted once WFP is off, I wouldn't toss and turn through a sleepless night worrying about it.
+++
Edit: You do have the folder. I miss-read your note - sorry. Now go back to sleep.
+++No two Windoze installations are ever going to have the same file library. If this or that (or even these or those) files are present on Machine A but not Machine B, again, don't worry about it. At least three quarters of the files on Serge's list are not on my machine as I've been doing a similar purge though not as thorough and for a different purpose.
Whatever, he has passed on a list of files that he was able to remove and get better sound as a result. If you want to do the same, remember that what works for him might not work for you and that, while it might be safe to delete them, their absence may well make no difference to your setup. On the other hand, you won't miss them.
The mantra is "Go carefully and backup regularly". It's not a bad idea to make notes of what you delete as you go along.
Edits: 08/23/11
Hey Rye,
Wow, an inmate who actually reads and re-reads posts they are responding to. Dont make a habit of that or you will not be welcomed here :).
Before I go back to sleep, I remember on my last cmp2 build that I was using the directions off the cicsmemoryplayer.com site and there was a step missing that I remembered doing.
In the Autoruns section there is no mention of deleting the kmixer, dmusic, etc. Though on the directions that you gave me years ago, there is a whole section on that.
Was this an oversite when the site was built, or a change to the "recipe"?
I did the steps and cant see why they wouldnt be a good thing to do. Perhaps some inmates are missing out?
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Was this an oversite when the site was built, or a change to the "recipe"?
Good point. I suspect it was an error, probably mine way back when I edited the copy a couple of years ago. What we can do to correct it now, I don't know as it's out of my hands.
Do you still have a copy of those "directions"? If so, any chance you could send them to me?
Yikes!!
I looked on the current pc and did not find any such doc. Then I looked through e-mail and besides remembering some of the great ones I found every attachment you sent but that one.
1st off any ideas what it would be called??
I do remember a time when my computer died and I rushed my cmp2 rig into service. There was a lapse I think where some e-mails might not have made it from one computer to the other. The wife has taken time off to be with me this week so give me some time to figure it all out and see if I can find it.
I find the doc I have better than the printouts from the site.
Anyhow I'll just e-mail you when I have a solid answer but you know how long those religious services last...
Oh, and one of those e-mails talked about having higher latency on the fit pc, but better sound, concluding that the dpc latency checker is an indicator of OS slimming but not necessarily quality. I wish I had read that last week. My headphone cmp2 has been plagued with high latency 700 or higher no matter what I do. It does sound pretty good though. I think it is a bad mobo so i ordered a new one. Headphones blow so if I can not spend money on it that would be a good thing...
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Hi steppe,
Thanks again for another great tweak.
I am also 16-44, but use ASIO4ALL and Windows XP Home Edition.
I removed:
from Windows\System32: msadp32.acm, msaud32.acm, and sound.drv (yes, lower case)
from Windows\System32\dllcache: msacm32.drv, and dmband.dll, sound.drv (yes, again)
and from Windows\System32\Drivers: MSKSSRV.sys
The improvement is systemic and therefore difficult to describe. But the sound is more precise and I am able to listen into the music more. The high is less shrill. Detail more apparent.
Thanks again.
KC
throughout the spectrum in my system.
I do not think I am hearing much different in the high frequencies.
Very worthwhile improvement. Subtle initially but the longer you listen the more you appreciate what it does.
Thanks very much, Serge,
Hi SergeI'm working through your new hit list of files to disable, and I discovered MSACM.DLL & MSACM32.DLL in my system32 folder... but no instruction from you to deal with them.
Is this something you tried already, or another two candidates for exclusion ?
BTW, thank you so much for starting us down this road of improvement !
Cheers,
GrantLATER ON: haw-haw... answered my own question. In my system, Windows complains on bootup without MSACM32.DLL (the other one seems of no consequence, so I left it disabled)
EARLY LISTENING: I agree with other posters here - nice uplift to SQ in my room too. Excellent results from your research Serge ! Can there be any more left to uncover ???
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Edits: 08/17/11 08/17/11
Didn't come to it yet
I discovered MSACM.DLL & MSACM32.DLL in my system32 folder . . .As Serge noted, "Also there are two DRM descramblers, that I don't know how to remove yet".
If he means (as I'm sure he does) MSACM.DLL & MSACM32.DLL, neither do I. If you do delete them, Windows will almost certainly fail on boot - the Internet is awash with scary warnings about this. (Ever curious, I renamed msacm.dll and couldn't access my headless box on restart. I switched it back and all was OK.)
Just for the record, I've now deleted the listed files on two cMP^2 boxes and, yes, the SQ improvement is very marked in both cases. This is a VERY worthwhile "tweak". Good work, Serge!
Edit : On my cMP^2 systems, the "Search" function doesn't work because something or other is missing. If you get the same, open a Command Prompt window in \system32 and type Dir audiosrv.dll /s to find all instances of audiosrv.dll (/s searches sub-folders) then delete them. Repeat this for each file - very quick.
Edits: 08/18/11
even on my office computer where nothing has been removed from WINDOWS, SEARCH will only find the basic files where COMMAND PROMPT finds the "other" files.
Whether this makes any difference sonically I cannot say since I just discovered this new tweak today. Can't wait to get home and give it a try.
Serge/STEPPE is the man of the season on the FORUM this summer of 2011.
Thanks for letting us know the results of your inquisitive mind!!!
The fun goes on, it seems.
Indeed it does. I haven't done exactly as you suggest but what I have done is most of the general slimming down of XP described in detail at the link below. I was doing this with an eye to fitting the OS onto (and booting from) a 1GB SD using a SD/SATA adapter with an Intel Atom mobo. What I wasn't prepared for was the dramatic difference in SQ that followed.
To what extent I have more or less inadvertently done the same as you I can't really say though I'll take a look shortly and report back. Nor can I say whether doing the exercise would make any difference on another system as I've only tried it on the one so far.
One thing I can say is that it's time consuming to do, especially Part 2 (Disabled Services) which needs also to be done with care. I've skipped most of Part 2 for the moment following repeated lock outs though I will go back to it. I'd urge that you don't even think of trying it if you don't have access to and are familiar with a good "imagefile" backup utility and that you at least think twice about trying it if you don't have a docking station.
I was planning eventually to report what I'd found but I've been sidetracked by other issues. In short, however, on the basis of my experience, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you're on to something. Thanks!
Best
Dave
Dave,
Very interesting link. I'm warming to the idea of taking Windows down another notch or two... Serge showed the first Steppe (PI), this looks like a good 'nuther hundred steps or so.
I take it from your comments you made the changes manually. In the interest of saving time (a commodity I don't have a lot to spare right now), I'm thinking the easiest way to do this is to:
1. "Donate" for his batch files.
2. Go through the batch files with the guide & comment out the deletes that look like they'll stop my cMP from running.
3. Apply them on a test HDD. Then see if it runs still.
4. If no-runnie, back to #2 and repeat as needed. If it runs, copy the system to the SDD & give it a listen.
I didn't see any cautions about using his batch files after a quick 'Google'. Any thoughts?
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. Serge, thanks for doing all this research and sharing your findings. After getting into the cMP groove a few years back, I've gained the opinion that the more un-needed processing (software or hardware) you cut out of the system, the better it will sound. As a matter of course, I removed the codecs when setting up my cMP when doing "Step 3 – disable unused hardware" & "Step 4 – disable unused audio functions" under the Soundcard setup section. But I never listened to see if that made a difference. Now I know it does! You, Mark, and Dave are doing great things to extend our cMP setup knowledge!
Everything matters!
I'm warming to the idea of taking Windows down another notch or two.
Me too. Many thanks for your interest.
The first point I'd make is (a) that what I call "steppe 2" (Serge's codec deletions) makes a significant difference to SQ - it jumps at you - and (b) that "a leech on a mermaid's ass" just has to be the Metaphor of the Year!
The second is that I'm not suggesting that "slimming" Win XP makes for anything like such a marked a difference. I'm wondering if it's not my imagination. It needs more testing. I reported a SQ improvement the first time I tried it - and there certainly was one in my system - but I'm not now absolutely sure it was "the slimming wot done it". This is partly because I can't readily think of a reason why it should and explains why I'm hoping others will try it.
"Donate" for his batch files.
I've been working my way through the ten "Chapters" of the web site and writing my own batch files to do the various deletions. I certainly don't grudge the chap his $15 - if this works out we should IMHO pay him both verbal and more useful tribute - but it soon became clear to me that the scenario he was designing for and the cMP setup are very different and that what he generally recommends and what would work for us are not the same. There is, e.g., a fair bit that he urges his readers to keep that I've deleted without problems and vice versa .
I've had some interesting side effects. As you know, I use a headless setup and for a long while had an odd bug whereby some (though not all) flac-format data (though not wav) would, if running with AWE enabled while pulling data over a LAN, cause certain albums to freeze on launch. It seems (though it might not seem so in the morning) that this irritating bug has been cured because of the files I've deleted. Time will tell but what pleases me is that the system is definitely more responsive than it was. I have no idea why.
Another odd effect is that I now think that playing with AWE enabled is less pleasant to listen to than playing with it off. It's certainly different and I'm not sure which I prefer.
Apply them on a test HDD. Then see if it runs still.
Already done! I've worked my through the text on the web site chapter by chapter to create files that do nearly all the proposed deletions while omitting those that gut feel suggested I shouldn't, at least on a first pass. It was teeeeeedious.
If no-runnie, back to #2 and repeat as needed. If it runs, copy the system to the SDD & give it a listen.
I tested both boot and play at regular intervals as I assembled the batch files. As it goes, this was easy to do with a headless setup as I'd write the file on a desktop then run it on the target without having to boot the latter into XP Mode. I'd just launch Explorer from the cMP GUI, locate and run the batch file, re-boot (to be sure it would still boot) and test play. I reckon I've now done about 90 per cent of the chap's suggestions and have yet to have a lockout. So far, all-runnie. It won't last.
So, if you can bear with me for a day or so while I complete and test the files, I'll happily pass them on to anyone who asks for them c/w some rough and ready notes, screenshots, the usual disclaimers and so on.
As of now, I've taken the OS partition down from something just over 1 GB to under 400 MB (making it feasible to boot from a 1GB SD c/w SATA adapter), fixed my flac bug and possibly (though not definitely) improved cMP^2's SQ.
+++
In short, it's a case of "what are you doing but lure people into time consuming and sometimes useless software ''so called ops' ' w/o thinking and trial?" Shame on you, DR.
Ok Dave please do share which 'file deletes' you did successfully. I have read the link several times and conclude I cannot do any of these w/o some assistance.
please do share which 'file deletes' you did successfully.
I did pretty much the whole caboodle except for Chapter 2 which covers the files that perform XP Services you don't use. I hit problems with that bit and have yet to go back to it. The rest was fine.
As I say, I was aiming only to reduce the installed size of the OS - the SQ change was unexpected and not IMHO as marked as that obtained from "steppe 2". But still worth doing.
Just sit with the instructions in front of you and delete the stuff it tells you to using a bit of common sense as to what to skip.
It's not exciting - but it's not difficult either. Just be sure to proceed slowly and make regular tested backups (so you don't have to go back to Square One when you mess up).
HTH
Its great to see you continously tweaking Windows. I have one question before I try this. You said '... Find your soundcard, and check what files for ASIO it uses. (my Lynx l22 uses 2 Microsoft files and 2 Lynx wdm files). Make sure that your soundcard does not use any of the files from the "remove" list. If It does, return it to its place...'
How exactly do you do that?
Hello.Theo!
Run> Control Panel> Sounds and Audiodevices> hardware> (find your - is it Juli@,-then go > drivers...)I recollect it from memory sitting in front of a russian version of Windows Vista, so can't say exactly right now, but I am sure you will find it once you open your souncard's dialod. I am sure, by the way that no real asio soundcard uses these files.
Try, Theo. It was a real earopener. The mids are delicious. You are one of those few of us who had done all cics's tweaks, so I'm sure You will hear the difference.
Serge.
Ok I had found it before your post and removed all the files I could find. So far yes more transparent. Sounds like more volume. I will post long term impressions after I listen for awhile
More listening impressions after 1 hour of listening. More highs & air and all but I found it bit overdone so I backed off on my panel crossover a bit. Once this adjustment was made I was ok with it and yes more air, more mids/upper mids definition. It is definitely more transparent in the positive sense of the word. More to come.
Ok I finally found the 3 files I missed 1st time through. It sounds better with remaining files deleted. More transparency in mids/highs. Purer sound is the best way to describe it. Definitely a keeper.
Dave I don't know how to respond to your post. I went through the link you provided but there is lot there I don't understand, Will study some more.
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