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Posts: 940
Location: South of England
Joined: December 8, 2000
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Dear Morricab,
Possibly, but you have got to admit it is/was a pretty serious discrepancy.
Now to answer your questions,
1.) Lamination thickness of all our HiB cores is 0.23mm, the SHiB and UHiB are available in 0.1 mm as well, but we have to buy several tonnes of each grade, and so far we have not found a suitable use for the thinner material where it was a worthwhile investment, it is pretty expensive approaching the cost of Nickel.
We use Japanese HiB materials, as their production quality, consistency and processing is far superior to any other source of similar specified materials, for example the US version of the UHiB, Z material I think they call it, is no better than the Japanese IHiB once processed and the same price as the Japanese UHiB, so it is an easy choice.
Except for the IHiB material which is heat treated by the processor, all our other HiB cores are sent to Germany for heat treatment, which adds to cost considerably, but which also improves the low level linearity considerably, this is most important in an audio application where signal levels start at zero.
2.) Pretty much all copper wire made now is classed as oxygen free, 30 - 40 years ago this was not the case, but modern refining and manufacturing methods combined with vast production quantities have brought 99% of the copper wire to this high standard, it is still possible to buy even better, Hitashi for example (again Japanese!), but having tried these wires we cannot hear any improvement either in our cables or transformers so we do not use them as it is not cost efficient.
3.) Nanochrystalline is as you say a steel material, and on paper a very high quality one, however, there are several problems with this material when used in audio output transformers as it is not really designed or intended for audio frequency use, wherefore there are major issues with flux density at low frequencies, we have a number of Nanochrystalline c-cores from various sources and we have found that after some time the material starts developing lots of small stress fractures in each layer of the lams in a c-core (you can actually see some of these on the surface of the cut on some cores) and this causes a further deterioration in performance across the audio band, there are other issues as well, but I cannot find the detailed internal report we wrote 2 - 3 years ago when we tested the various samples we bought, damn computers!
These issues make this material less suitable for audio transformers in our view, in spite of impressive specifications on paper.
I agree it is a material that has potential and we have samples of a couple of the most recently developed Nanochrystalline cores on the way, so it is possible some of our reservations will disappear, we shall see.
So your statement below,
"No, because you use copper in the lower versions (I won't discuss silver further) and from what I can tell, Grain oriented Silicon steel of a certain grade and thickness (both so far undisclosed) and what I have found is a very high grade of Silicon steel with pretty thin (not the thinnest though) laminations using high quality copper and insulation materials. So, discrepancy based on materials costs are fully warranted for a discussion here. The price difference is nearly 50% and one might argue that the ones I have found use better materials than are in your bottom model."
Well you may and you may not and to me that is the problem, because you cannot really make a comment on a price comparison without also making it look like you are comparing like for like, at least that is the impression that people reading it will be left with, especially given the opening premise that what we make is too expensive.
Copper wire, again,
Copper wires are standard off the shelf items available from a range of suppliers, so I suspect that the copper used in our lower range and the copper used in your transformers is largely the same, given the type of supply chain that exists in our brave new globalized market, it is close to impossible to know exactly where, and by who, the copper wire you buy is actually made, so unless you buy it in bulk directly from the manufacturer, which in spite of using several tonnes of wire a year even we don't, I think it is safe to assume that whoever makes the transformers you refer to use what we use, or something very similar.
Now briefly back to the cost of silver wire,
I would say that the ratio between the cost of silver and copper wire is actually probably closer to 120x to 150x, as only recently silver was costing $ 16.00 - $ 22.00 an ounce and copper less than $ 6,000.00 a tonne, in addition, as I also mentioned in my earlier post, there is a huge difference in the manufacturing cost of silver and copper wire, one, silver, is made in very small quantities of perhaps 5 to 25 kilograms (there are good reasons why Hudson Wire, a huge US based wire manufacturer called the division that made their silver, platinum, gold and other scientific wires Hudson Specialty Wire) , with specific insulation (Polyurethane, ML, HML or Polyesteramide, depending on what the wire will be used for, how thick or thin gauge the wire is and whether for use in high or low voltage applications) and copper is drawn on huge machines by the tonne and lacquered (a process not available to small scale wire manufacture), I know you do not wish to discuss the cost of silver wire, but I think it is relevant regardless in view of what you say above.
Now whether the material in your transformers is better is a matter for debate given point 3.) above, in addition there are a number of grades of nanochrystalline material and some are decidedly not very good for audio applications, and if the price you paid is correct then it is more than likely that it is a grade material used in bulk for reactors, suppressors or DC inductors which would make it less expensive, but also not as good as our IHiB, but without analyzing the material it is impossible to say.
So don't just assume that because the makers of your transformers say it is an expensive material, then it is (they may not even know the difference) so what you say is that you do not believe us, but why do you not apply the same critical sense to them? It is easy to make claims, it costs very little and if a cheap price makes customers less likely to question the claims all the better.
Insulation is a many varied subject,
We mainly use Nomex as insulation in our output transformers, although in some applications we use Kraft paper, if it sounds better (yes we even listen to different types of paper).
Why is a 33:1 ratio more expensive to make than a 5:1?
To get the much higher step down ratio you have to use huge numbers of windings of very thin wire (in this case I think it is 0.132mm) they have to be perfectly aligned in each section otherwise there will be air pockets within and between the sections which strongly affects the performance and there are normally more sections as well, all this takes a lot of time and effort (the insulation has to be cut to width and wound on by hand and taped) the more sections the longer the manufacturing time.
Now you may ask why are our 5:1 transformers the same price then?
Well simple really, we make hundreds of 33:1 output transformers, as they are used in all our pre-amplifiers, but only small numbers of the TRANS-011, so what you pay for there is setting up the machine with different wires, readjusting the tensioners etc.
I believe I have covered the issues of copper to silver wire cost in sufficient detail now.
If you have ever sat next to me in one of my faster cars, on a German motorway you will know that I am not very careful! It could also be argued that trying to build a long term business in an industry as fickle and notoriously unstable as the audio industry is also a sign of severe carelessness so don't be too surprised, but I do agree it was not a very friendly gesture and for that I should apologise, and I do!
I am glad we have at least inspired you, that is actually a key part of my raison d'etre for being in audio, not everything in life is about money (although with the trend towards markets for everything, or neoliberalism, that is clearly changing, sadly), it is a legacy I would like to pass on.
Speakers, I actually find it quite strange that you find them less free than planars or horns, but that is perhaps a discussion over a drink at the show in Zurich?
Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup
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