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In Reply to: RE: I'm tired of people running down Audio Note (UK) posted by Peter Qvortrup on August 26, 2015 at 10:12:01
Yes Peter, i not say what the best quality cores are and it makes not so much sense to tell because it depends on the deisgn.
I can see you are not a designer but a salesman. You try to say that is all about sound but you forget that physics and other technicians did all the work....Lets focus on some AN transformers and why i think it is about sales techniques and not about (audio) quality.
The AN c-cores can be bought for SE and PSE and they have the same dimensions.Really? As a designer i can tell you that it whould have a hugh effect and the (technical)performance (and so also on sound) there is no possiblity to get the same quality without getting worse low frequancy bandwith or copperloss. So bad designs.It is also possible to change the cores for a Permalloy core. Permalloy (any permalloy) has a much lower maximum extitation leven, typical 1,5T (50-55%) versus 2T for HiB. You can not do such a change without doing a compromis. Low frequancy reponse will be less good or less power or higher copperloss. Again not the best design
You can not compare such transformers
Because the models are mostly SE models we should remember that there is always a magneticfield active. Hysteresis differance will be highly reduced, permeabilty will be in all cases low because of the airgap.
There is no manufacture who makes super HiB or Ultra HiB or whatever you name the material AN uses. This is salesman peptalk.
I am just a hobby winder. I am not saying the AN transformers are bad, but they also not special and absoluty overpriced.
Edits: 08/27/15Follow Ups:
Dear Mr. 572,
We are talking audio designs here, so i think it is possible to say which is better sonically.
You are quite right I am not an engineer, but I have access to an engineer who is the premier expert in the field, so I shall consult him after the long weekend, he will most certainly be able to put you right.
At the end of the day, it matters little what the physics says if the end result sounds poor, or are the measurements still more important?
In your view they clearly are.
On the subject of "bad" in your final paragraph you say,
"I am just a hobby winder. I am not saying the AN transformers are bad, but they also not special and absoluty overpriced."
But above that you clearly state they are bad designs, see,
The AN c-cores can be bought for SE and PSE and they have the same dimensions.Really? As a designer i can tell you that it whould have a hugh effect and the (technical)performance (and so also on sound) there is no possiblity to get the same quality without getting worse low frequancy bandwith or copperloss. So bad designs.
Given that you have never tried one of these transformers, perhaps it is your knowledge that is limited and not the transformers?
We have many different sizes of C-cores, 29, 78, 120, 196, 248, 638 and one or two more, so our transformers are made in a much wider range than what is shown on the web site, 80% of the transformers used in our products are not for sale as parts at all.
The naming of the cores is to distinguish their performance, some of which relates to the type of MO material used and some to the heat treatment the better versions get, all of which is proprietary to Audio Note, so I am not surprised that you cannot find them in any catalogue.
I look forward to an amusing exchange next week between you and Andy Grove.
Have a fine weekend, where ever you are.
Sincerely,
Peter
Peter,If you not understand the physics behind transformers then stop giving stupid answers as that my knowledge is limited.
My examples are based on the products on the AN diy-componentsite.
I mean not bad sounding but bad designed in some cases because the core demension are still the same. Your designer do understand the physic laws behind it i hope.....
Edits: 08/28/15
Dear SV-572, again,
Sorry about delay replying to your post, much to do here, here is Andy Grove's response to your post.
Hi,
One thing should be made clear when we have such discussions: We are not working in an open-source environment. Audio Note has to pay for its R&D and engineering costs and, although we like to disseminate knowledge to further the general cause, our families will starve to if we go too far down that road. We aren't principally here to do R&D and then hand that information to hobbyists, or competitors for that matter.
With that in mind it's not unreasonable to expect that we would have trade names for materials we've developed and/or sourced. This is quite normal in any industry. In any case, what does a series of code digits mean to a customer whose main interest is in music?
Metaphorically speaking, it's easy to read a Haynes manual, and use your new-found knowledge of car design to criticize Ferrari and Lamborghini for being too expensive. However, it might just be possible that Ferrari know some things about car design that you don't.
And , just possibly, those cars are expensive because the materials are expensive, there is a lot of R&D behind them, and they are put together by skilled workers on expensive machinery.
You make statements about transformer design, and core materials, which are extremely general and come from the transformer section of the RDH...
Even the best Japanese HiB material turns over at 1.8T or so in use, in a C Core, not 2T. I know that because I've measured all these materials, I'm not taking the Epstein square test data off an online dictionary page and then using it as a weapon on a forum.
The saturation of pure iron is, what, under ideal circumstances 2.15T, and we have 3-4% silicon in HiB, so straight away the 2T figure is off isn't it surely?
Furthermore, not all HiB is the same, nor M6, M4 or whatever else. Even materials which are grouped within those specs can be quite different, magnetically AND sonically.
Round loop annealed 55% material doesn't saturate at 1.5T, in fact, it's a very hard material to use, and I wouldn't recommend it for high power use unless the core is very large indeed. And, speaking of which, I designed a 15k ohm SE 211 transformer with it which used a 8 square inch CSA core just recently. That one had other features you've never heard of too.
When it comes to inter-stage and pre-amp output transformers you CAN use the same cores with the same number of turns on the winding. That's because there is a minimum feasible gap, and with that gap the relatively small current can be supported, it's just that more current can be supported with HiB cores, but you can't make the gap any smaller.
Yes, sometimes we use the same core size for SE as PSE, sometimes not, it depends on the target customer, physical constraints, budget constraints and a whole bunch of other stuff we have to think of as a functioning manufacturing company.
Furthermore, when someone emails me about an expensive transformer, I will discuss it with them, and quite often will make a bespoke design for them.
Finally, and I find myself repeating this so often: If your audio value system is based on abstract figures and specs then there is only one way to go, and that is MOSFETS. They will do everything you want, low distortion, wide bandwidth, everything, in ways that no valve or transformer can achieve.
Otherwise, you have to accept that some things have a sound, and, in audio, some things work even though, at first glance, it appears they shouldn't.
Andy
With these sorts of discussions - as an outsider of design - I like to see discussions that talk about specific things rather than general broadside attacks on AN.
For instance when I have to buy new 15 inch tires for my car - All the tires are made from rubber - so I, as an outsider, have to rely on reviews or experts when they tell me that this Firestone is better than that Michelin.
SO here is what I would like from SV-572
I want him to choose a specific C-Core at a specific value from Audio Note and then compare that transformer to a specific model made from someone else of the identical value and cut them both open and tell me what specifically makes the contender better than the equivalent AN transformer.
AN makes several preamps that are the exact same design - the difference is in parts quality - and the sound quality jump is pretty massive to a decent ear. So the question would be to SV-572 would I get the exact same quality of sound jump by buying a transformer from SV-572. And wouldn't the onus then be on SV-572 to prove that?
All you need to do is get an AN Kit - and stick a bunch of transformers in them and see how they compare to the one that AN makes and supplies with the Kits.
I have been disappointed by cars, tires, even women, but never by an Audio Note double C-Core. It's one of those things you can just count on.
No regrets here.
I think the point was lost along the way - if measurements were the thing that truly mattered the most then Audio Note and most of the SET makers would be using Torroids and MOSFETs - so if you are going to say 'we're choosing lesser measuring components because they sound better' then it stands to reason that you would continue to do that even within the world or EI and C-Core transformers.
So it comes back to the sound of the product. I've heard a lot of products over the years and to me the onus is on the attacker to bring out a fully realized product that they can demonstrate to me sounds better for the same price as what AN puts out. Not a DIY project where you have not factored in any of your costs. DIYers never account for their tools, their electricity or their salary per hour.
AN probably doesn't want to say - but I have seen a number of their parts being used in a number of competing high end machines - some actually advertise that they use Audio Note Silver or Volume knobs or whatever - but I am sure there are ten times that number who don't advertise it because AN is their competition. It was like the American car company that had exactly ONE car in their entire line-up that got a recommendation in the ultra tough (only in Canada) car guide 'The Lemon Aid' and it turned out the car was a copy of the Suzuki Swift (made by Suzuki for GM) from Japan with a different name badge on the front. Ditto Pontiac Vibe which was a Toyota Matrix.
I know lots of comparisons of Caps have been done over the years and AN's caps usually come out at or very close to the best in the world - and some of those cost a LOT of money - and the same argument can be made - such and such AN cap measures the same as something for half the price - but in the auditions the AN cap was much preferred even though it measures the same. So the benefit of the doubt applies when talking about the transformers I should think.
Warren Jarrett posted a discussion about AN Transformers on the Steve Hoffman Forum -
im very interested by audio note amps for my amphion one18
I was however dissapointed by the sound of my AN J Lx. I really didnt like that sound.
Yeah, why run them down? Just because they stole the name, that does not mean they are not nice, does it?
And, as someone who has had copper and silver wire made, the quoted numbers are truly comical.
Great to hear The Man speak of what he knows.
Given the similar yet substantial size of their TRANS-300 SE and TRANS-305 1.25k PSE output transformers, Have you considered that perhaps they may not be operating them near the saturation point of the cores?
The workpoint can be different (0,4; 0,7 or 0,9T or whatever the designer likes) but it can't change the physic laws.
So twice the power and the same core as AN dos will always give something in return you don't like.Changing core materials can have also such effects if max saturation point is less.
Edits: 08/28/15 08/28/15 08/28/15 08/28/15 08/28/15
For people who are interested in a company that really knows how to make good core material and do give decent datasheet:
http://www.nssmc.com/product/catalog_download/pdf/D004je.pdf
Or a nice hightech German manufacure:
http://www.vacuumschmelze.com/en/products/materials-parts/soft-magnetic.html
And for people who like to know how much a very very nice HiB core will cost.
A big SE transformer SG 108/51 core cost about $51,- (without tax, costums but with shipment wordwide)
You say AN transformers are not special - have you bought any of their dearer models to try? I have and use them exclusively in my plate choke loaded and output transformer coupled tube phono stage, for example. They're also fitted throughout my 2A3 amplifiers of their manufacture. Their transformers have audible resolving capabilities which I have not heard from other manufacturers and for what it's worth, their test bench performance can be extraordinary, as observed with my AP.
Edits: 08/27/15
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