|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
160.62.7.250
In Reply to: RE: I'm tired of people running down Audio Note (UK) posted by Peter Qvortrup on August 26, 2015 at 10:42:24
Perhaps it is not the same quality but let's take a simple example.
Your HiB C core is using laminations from grain oriented silicon steel, yes? What thickness are those laminations? 0.35mm? 0.2mm? Less? What else would set it apart from others of simliar materials? Vacuum impregnation of resins? Copper wire choice? OFC? 6N? Choice of insulation materials? teflon? paper and wax?
I can get a pair of Double C core preamp output transformers for a 6n6P output tube using Nanocrystalline Si Steel laminations 0.18mm thick with OFC wire and teflon insulation for about $700 a pair. A similar grade preamp OPT from you is double that price or am I mistaken. I can get similar massive OPT for my parallel 6C33C amp for $1400 a pair with the same quality laminations, wire and insulation. Do they sound better than yours? No idea, just saying from a materials POV they must be pretty similar.
I realize silver is expensive (much less so at the moment...only $14 an ounce) but is it really 6 or 7 times the price of copper? IMO, 3N Silver is not pure enough...I would like to see at least 4N.
Don't get me wrong it is possible your costs are justified but at least from the advertising there are better prices to be had for simliar basic specs.
Follow Ups:
Dear Morricab,
I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry here, your assumptions are so broad and poorly based it is hard to know where to start.
You said it yourself, you do not know whether the transformers you mention are better or worse than ours, does that not say it all?
For example, what is the step down ratio of this 6H6P output transformer?
Ours is 33:1 which makes it hard to wind for example.
A 6C33C is very low impedance indirectly heated triode, which makes the transformer far easier to make, lower turns ratio, thicker wire, etc. so it is hardly a good comparison either.
At the end of the day things cost what they cost to make and companies need to make a profit, enough profit to stay in business to offer back up service, warranty etc. to its customers, if you sell too cheap, you do not stay in business for long, the audio industry is littered with the corpses of companies who set out to sell cheaper.
4N, 5N or whatever is NOT possible in the real world, when you buy the material it is 99.99%, but by the time it has been subjected to the atmosphere, especially during drawing process it will have oxidized enough to drop to 99.9%, to prevent this you would have to draw in a vacuum, which some companies offer, but that comes at a very serious price premium and is totally unnecessary for audio applications.
I reiterate what I have already said, you do not have the first idea about what it costs to make silver wire insulated for high voltage applications, here is why.
So silver is 6 to 7 times the price of copper is it?
Copper at today's London Metal Exchange price costs $ 4,958.00 a tonne cash, there is 35,274 ounces in a tonne, so if silver is $ 14.00 an ounce (and may I say here that it is cheap at the moment, it was $ 20-25 an ounce not so terribly long ago) then it would cost $ 493,836.00 a tonne, I think even you can work out that this makes silver close to 100 times the price of copper would it not?
Add to that the cost of drawing small quantities of specialist wire (copper wire is drawn by the hundreds of tonnes) by a company that also has to make a profit, then you get closer to the reality of what silver wire actually costs.
Now I would say that that discrepancy just based on material costs makes your assertions pretty worthless, wouldn't you?
As an aside Tangos transformers are pretty expensive, but I have never seen anyone complain about them the way they do with ours, which I find interesting.
By your own admission you have not compared our transformers to the ones you claim are similar but cheaper, so if I offered you a $ 100K bet they are not would you take it?
Consider what not taking it would do to your credibility and perceived "wisdom" and "advice"?
I look forward to you taking my wager.
Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup
It seems you have overreacted to my error in the pricing of Silver vs. Copper. Let me first offer a Mea Cupla for my incorrect statments on the price of the material. I usually look things up before writing...this time I did not. However, you will agree that highly purified copper is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than bulk copper prices, whereas bulk Silver is always at least 3N pure. That will close the 100:1 gap considerably I would argue. The Ohno continuous cast copper is probably with the factor range I offered before.
"your assumptions are so broad "
Whereas I wrote: "Your HiB C core is using laminations from grain oriented silicon steel, yes? What thickness are those laminations? 0.35mm? 0.2mm? Less? What else would set it apart from others of simliar materials? Vacuum impregnation of resins? Copper wire choice? OFC? 6N? Choice of insulation materials? teflon? paper and wax?
"
I actually just asked you a lot of questions, none of with you answered, BTW.
Actually I didn't make a lot of assumptions. In addtion, I gave you a very concrete example of an actual product. BTW. the turns ratio of said product is 5.6:1.
"Ours is 33:1 which makes it hard to wind for example."
Your website lists two types of preamp transformers and the other is 5:1 and they cost the same. Why is that if 33:1 is so much harder to wind?
TRANS-011/01-A T011-1-I-IAPT-F As above Copper AN Improved HiB As above 5 : 1 £ 353.60
TRANS-011/01-AS T011-1-S-IAPTIAPT-F As above Copper AN Super HiB As above 5 : 1 £ 424.00
TRANS-011/01-AN T011-1-U-IAPTIAPT-F As above Copper AN Ultra HiB As above 5 : 1 £ 635.20
Note that many of my questions are not answered by the very limited information you have here. What are the lamination thicknesses of the different grades? Is this defined somewhere? What grade of copper is used in the windings? What insulation?
"Copper at today's London Metal Exchange price costs $ 4,958.00 a tonne cash, there is 35,274 ounces in a tonne, so if silver is $ 14.00 an ounce (and may I say here that it is cheap at the moment, it was $ 20-25 an ounce not so terribly long ago) then it would cost $ 493,836.00 a tonne, I think even you can work out that this makes silver close to 100 times the price of copper would it not?
"
Again, only assuming that the grade of copper and silver here are equivalent and for audio it is well known that higher grades of copper matter and also cost a lot more money.
"Now I would say that that discrepancy just based on material costs makes your assertions pretty worthless, wouldn't you?
"
No, because you use copper in the lower versions (I won't discuss silver further) and from what I can tell, Grain oriented Silicon steel of a certain grade and thickness (both so far undisclosed) and what I have found is a very high grade of Silicon steel with pretty thin (not the thinnest though) laminations using high quality copper and insulation materials. So, discrepancy based on materials costs are fully warranted for a discussion here. The price difference is nearly 50% and one might argue that the ones I have found use better materials than are in your bottom model.
"As an aside Tangos transformers are pretty expensive, but I have never seen anyone complain about them the way they do with ours, which I find interesting.
"
Don't know, just know they aren't available anymore. Still, I think they were cheaper than your upper (copper) models.
"By your own admission you have not compared our transformers to the ones you claim are similar but cheaper, so if I offered you a $ 100K bet they are not would you take it?
"
Are you offering me a $100K bet? Be careful what you offer. I see no reason for you to make such an unfriendly wager (if you bet me a beer or something I would regard that as friendly...$100K is most aggressive and arrogant and decidedly unfriendly).
"Consider what not taking it would do to your credibility and perceived "wisdom" and "advice"?"
Again with the arrogance. You are obviously trying to bait me so I won't rise to the bait.
The reason is simple: I have never claimed sonic superiority for EITHER of the premap transformers in question so there is nothing to bet. It has no impact whatsoever on my credibility and perceived "wisdom" and "advice". I simply questioned (yes questioned not accused) your material costs in light of what I have found elsewhere. Those elsewheres also claim high grade materials and advanced techniques. Obviously listening is the final arbiter but I was not even approaching that subject.
It's sad that you want to degenerate into something so crass. It would have been much nicer of you to say something like: "I can see where you are coming from but rest assured our transformers sound better and I can prove it to you"...or some such thing.
Truth of the matter is I like your design philosophy. I have a zero negative feedback system based on SET amplification, tube DAC (not a NOS DAC but a true ladder dac with only tubes in the circuit) without feedback, an all tube (including power supply) phono preamp and preamp.
I have been impressed with some of your amps but I have to admit not your speakers, which I find do not sound not free like a good planar or horn speaker. I have heard several models now at the local AN dealer. The DACs, I have heard up to level 4, are good but somehow not my cuppa.
Your amps though I think are special. I really enjoyed a pair of P4s a few years ago and am really tempted to try an Oto SE signature (can't really afford your upper models with the silver trafos) or Conquest Silver SIg.
Dear Morricab,
Possibly, but you have got to admit it is/was a pretty serious discrepancy.
Now to answer your questions,
1.) Lamination thickness of all our HiB cores is 0.23mm, the SHiB and UHiB are available in 0.1 mm as well, but we have to buy several tonnes of each grade, and so far we have not found a suitable use for the thinner material where it was a worthwhile investment, it is pretty expensive approaching the cost of Nickel.
We use Japanese HiB materials, as their production quality, consistency and processing is far superior to any other source of similar specified materials, for example the US version of the UHiB, Z material I think they call it, is no better than the Japanese IHiB once processed and the same price as the Japanese UHiB, so it is an easy choice.
Except for the IHiB material which is heat treated by the processor, all our other HiB cores are sent to Germany for heat treatment, which adds to cost considerably, but which also improves the low level linearity considerably, this is most important in an audio application where signal levels start at zero.
2.) Pretty much all copper wire made now is classed as oxygen free, 30 - 40 years ago this was not the case, but modern refining and manufacturing methods combined with vast production quantities have brought 99% of the copper wire to this high standard, it is still possible to buy even better, Hitashi for example (again Japanese!), but having tried these wires we cannot hear any improvement either in our cables or transformers so we do not use them as it is not cost efficient.
3.) Nanochrystalline is as you say a steel material, and on paper a very high quality one, however, there are several problems with this material when used in audio output transformers as it is not really designed or intended for audio frequency use, wherefore there are major issues with flux density at low frequencies, we have a number of Nanochrystalline c-cores from various sources and we have found that after some time the material starts developing lots of small stress fractures in each layer of the lams in a c-core (you can actually see some of these on the surface of the cut on some cores) and this causes a further deterioration in performance across the audio band, there are other issues as well, but I cannot find the detailed internal report we wrote 2 - 3 years ago when we tested the various samples we bought, damn computers!
These issues make this material less suitable for audio transformers in our view, in spite of impressive specifications on paper.
I agree it is a material that has potential and we have samples of a couple of the most recently developed Nanochrystalline cores on the way, so it is possible some of our reservations will disappear, we shall see.
So your statement below,
"No, because you use copper in the lower versions (I won't discuss silver further) and from what I can tell, Grain oriented Silicon steel of a certain grade and thickness (both so far undisclosed) and what I have found is a very high grade of Silicon steel with pretty thin (not the thinnest though) laminations using high quality copper and insulation materials. So, discrepancy based on materials costs are fully warranted for a discussion here. The price difference is nearly 50% and one might argue that the ones I have found use better materials than are in your bottom model."
Well you may and you may not and to me that is the problem, because you cannot really make a comment on a price comparison without also making it look like you are comparing like for like, at least that is the impression that people reading it will be left with, especially given the opening premise that what we make is too expensive.
Copper wire, again,
Copper wires are standard off the shelf items available from a range of suppliers, so I suspect that the copper used in our lower range and the copper used in your transformers is largely the same, given the type of supply chain that exists in our brave new globalized market, it is close to impossible to know exactly where, and by who, the copper wire you buy is actually made, so unless you buy it in bulk directly from the manufacturer, which in spite of using several tonnes of wire a year even we don't, I think it is safe to assume that whoever makes the transformers you refer to use what we use, or something very similar.
Now briefly back to the cost of silver wire,
I would say that the ratio between the cost of silver and copper wire is actually probably closer to 120x to 150x, as only recently silver was costing $ 16.00 - $ 22.00 an ounce and copper less than $ 6,000.00 a tonne, in addition, as I also mentioned in my earlier post, there is a huge difference in the manufacturing cost of silver and copper wire, one, silver, is made in very small quantities of perhaps 5 to 25 kilograms (there are good reasons why Hudson Wire, a huge US based wire manufacturer called the division that made their silver, platinum, gold and other scientific wires Hudson Specialty Wire) , with specific insulation (Polyurethane, ML, HML or Polyesteramide, depending on what the wire will be used for, how thick or thin gauge the wire is and whether for use in high or low voltage applications) and copper is drawn on huge machines by the tonne and lacquered (a process not available to small scale wire manufacture), I know you do not wish to discuss the cost of silver wire, but I think it is relevant regardless in view of what you say above.
Now whether the material in your transformers is better is a matter for debate given point 3.) above, in addition there are a number of grades of nanochrystalline material and some are decidedly not very good for audio applications, and if the price you paid is correct then it is more than likely that it is a grade material used in bulk for reactors, suppressors or DC inductors which would make it less expensive, but also not as good as our IHiB, but without analyzing the material it is impossible to say.
So don't just assume that because the makers of your transformers say it is an expensive material, then it is (they may not even know the difference) so what you say is that you do not believe us, but why do you not apply the same critical sense to them? It is easy to make claims, it costs very little and if a cheap price makes customers less likely to question the claims all the better.
Insulation is a many varied subject,
We mainly use Nomex as insulation in our output transformers, although in some applications we use Kraft paper, if it sounds better (yes we even listen to different types of paper).
Why is a 33:1 ratio more expensive to make than a 5:1?
To get the much higher step down ratio you have to use huge numbers of windings of very thin wire (in this case I think it is 0.132mm) they have to be perfectly aligned in each section otherwise there will be air pockets within and between the sections which strongly affects the performance and there are normally more sections as well, all this takes a lot of time and effort (the insulation has to be cut to width and wound on by hand and taped) the more sections the longer the manufacturing time.
Now you may ask why are our 5:1 transformers the same price then?
Well simple really, we make hundreds of 33:1 output transformers, as they are used in all our pre-amplifiers, but only small numbers of the TRANS-011, so what you pay for there is setting up the machine with different wires, readjusting the tensioners etc.
I believe I have covered the issues of copper to silver wire cost in sufficient detail now.
If you have ever sat next to me in one of my faster cars, on a German motorway you will know that I am not very careful! It could also be argued that trying to build a long term business in an industry as fickle and notoriously unstable as the audio industry is also a sign of severe carelessness so don't be too surprised, but I do agree it was not a very friendly gesture and for that I should apologise, and I do!
I am glad we have at least inspired you, that is actually a key part of my raison d'etre for being in audio, not everything in life is about money (although with the trend towards markets for everything, or neoliberalism, that is clearly changing, sadly), it is a legacy I would like to pass on.
Speakers, I actually find it quite strange that you find them less free than planars or horns, but that is perhaps a discussion over a drink at the show in Zurich?
Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup
Thanks for the most enlightening and reasonable discussion. Thanks for taking the time for such a reply as well as the apology.
I would be my pleasure if we can meet at the show in October (that is the one you mean, right?). I will have some of my hifi friends along as well, one of which is a Dutch guy who is a most sensitive listener.
Just so your realize, I am not taking all the claims of this other vendor at face value, which is why I have been asking a lot of questions. It does seem good but I don't have any particular reason to trust them even though they do see pretty knowledgeable and claim to have been doing this for a long time as well. I haven't bought from them yet because without a strong reputation I have to buy purely as an experiment...a somewhat expensive experiment, IMO.
Alas, experience is not everything...some talent and sensitivity for what one is doing is definitely required to get the best out of something.
I have a faster car as well, a Lotus Europa S (Lotus only made about 500 of them) to be more exact. Not a rocketship but wonderful through the twisty Swiss mountain passes.
I don't know what to tell you regarding your speakers...I simply have yet to hear them inspire me in the same way as when I heard my first electrostatic speaker or a really top notch horn. I remember a show when I first heard the Apogee Grand in 1993 in Chicago. I was gobsmacked. Later I heard STAX ELSF81s and was gobsmacked. Many years later I heard a pair of Odeon No. 32 with an all Einstein setup and my friend who was with me was utterly gobsmacked and I was mildly so...now having been exposed to much higher end gear it was a milder effect than the first such experiences. Now I have Odeon horns and they are really darn good.
So, if you are at the show in October then I would like to have that beer and you can maybe even hear my humble system if you want (I live only about 300 meters from the Movenpick Hotel where the show will be).
Europa S , that one had the Lotus head with Dellortos or SU head ..? You must be a wee fellah to get into a Europa ..
Edits: 08/29/15
It is not an old Europa from the 60s/70s but from 2006 and no I am not a wee fellow... I am 6'4 (193 cm) and I fit like a glove ;-) It has a 2 liter turbo from Vauxhall, which is pretty much bulletproof.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: