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In Reply to: RE: You May Express Your Dismay posted by Mr_Steady on August 26, 2015 at 12:05:03
Dear Jamie,
I do, certainly based on what I have heard from all the alternative so called higher resolution formats none of which to my ear and in my system (which unsurprisingly is very high level all Audio Note) DSD and every other supposedly higher resolution system and I have had the opportunity to try most of them come close to the best I get from Redbook, one of the "perks" of my job I suppose you could say, or perhaps a curse?
One of the most experienced technical reviewers, Martin Colloms wrote this in his review of our top level (Level Six) CD transport and DAC, complete review here,
http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/Audionote_CDT6-Dac_5_complete.pdf
"Sound Quality
As those who know me are well aware, I am rarely
lost for words, but in this case it was some time
before I dared commit my thoughts to paper. Value
for money is inevitably an element in the balancing
and weighing up processes of any appraisal, and
was clearly going to be a significant factor here. Yet
during each listening session - and there were many
considerations of value simply went right out of
the window.
The sound quality was consistently overwhelming,
almost defying critical opinion, constantly
demanding ones attention with the beautiful sounds
it rendered from digital sources. An opinion on a
medium can only be as good as your latest and best
experience: whatever we may have considered was
the limit for CDs Red Book 16-bit/44.1kHz format
and its historic recordings, that barrier has now been
comprehensively overturned."
Martin rated the CDT Six/Fifth Element combination higher than any of the hi-rez formats he had heard, so I/we are not completely alone in our view here.
Our view is that Redbook has the information, but execution across pretty much the entire spectrum of available Redbook products past and present have been badly executed to put it politely.
Having spent the last couple of years or more experimenting with discrete resistor ladder DACs (R2R) what I can confidently say is that Redbook has even further to go, although the improvements possible in the R2R DAC may also benefit some hi-rez.
The picture above shows our unique resistor testing and matching machine which one of our engineers built from scratch last year, it allows us to match up Tantalum, Ni-Chrome and other resistors in a constant temperature environment to the required 0.001% tolerance needed to create the sets of 96 resistors needed in an R2R ladder DAC to get 16Bit.
We are hoping this level of automation of the selection process will allow us to draw down the price of R2R ladder DACs to well below Level Four.
The way our R&D looks so far there is not much point going beyond 16Bit, but there is still some way to go in our work so perhaps I should be careful what I say?
I am curious to know how many different Redbook and Hi-Rez/DSD replay systems you have actually listened to, to get to the conclusions you draw about the order of quality of digital sources, Jusbe makes several good and valid points about "improving" existing digital recordings and knowing how a CD or DSD is derived is not always clear, which further complicates making firm and wide ranging judgements about quality.
May I also remind you that the enormous rise in the sales and interest in the LP really only happened quite some time after Redbook had already started declining, and is, in my opinion, partly at least, a reaction to the paltry quality of what is said to be better quality replacements (read here DSD and Hi-Rez digital sources), so perhaps that is a further illustration that we are not alone in the view that the claims of better are as flaky as I believe they are?
You cannot make a claim as broad and seemingly conclusive as you do about the quality ranking of 16/44 Redbook and Hi-Rez and DSD unless you have tried the widest possible alternatives, and that most certainly includes our DACs and CD transports, it is not a credible claim unless you have.
You say 16/44 is limited and that is of course quite true, in an absolute sense all formats are compromises, I am reminded of a meeting I attended at SONY's technical department in the early 1990's where the "Father of 16Bit", whose name now escapes me, came out of retirement for an interview with a couple of UK journalists; when asked the question what do you use for music at home he proudly announced, "why LP of course!" which prompted the next question "why not CD?" with a big smile he said, "Ah, but digital is for commercial, analogue is for music!"
I asked him about why he had chosen 16Bit and he explained that 16Bit allows for the highest density of data given what is possible to get into the digital domain from an analogue master and mathematically or technically this could not be improved on.
I have always wondered what exactly he meant by this, so a few years ago I asked a customer/friend who is a well-regarded Physicist and mathematician, he shrugged and said he would look into this, several years later he came back and told me that there may actually be some truth in this, as some kind of mathematical "equilibrium" seems to occur around 16Bit 44KHz if you look at sets of complex numbers in 20 - 20kHz set of wave forms, so perhaps there is something in this.
I looked at the data sheet for the AD5791, not very informative, it looks like a DC accurate instrumentation DAC, the AD1865 we use is a multibit 18Bit R2R ladder design, but the discrete 16Bit R2R ladder prototype absolutely obliterates it sonically and I mean makes the already very good DACs in our range sound like a car with a flat tyre, so there is far more going on here than just the bit rate.
I see no real contradiction in your preference for SET and horns and your somewhat confused relationship to digital sources, widen your experience in this area and you may well find yourself in less disagreement with me.
Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup
Follow Ups:
Hello, Peter!Any chance you might make it to Denver-- RMAF 2015? I might be found hiding out in Room 418 at times.....
I'm pretty much in agreement with you on your digital, and especially, Redbook's potential. Every once in a while, I find a Redbook recording that is musically stunning-- accurate presence, detail, correct tonal colors and splendidly accurate depth of images combined with great dynamics. Then, there are all those other CD's-- not so good.
The same always was-- and still is-- true of LP records, only a few studios ever put good sound on those, either.
A vinyl only guy until very late into the digital age, I never liked digital until I ran across a really stable CD deck coupled to a really good D/A converter. That combo changed the whole thing. I said the WHOLE THING.... everything that's real-- and great-- about musical playback done right.
Without naming anyone, I can state that I never liked computer audio until I heard a PC with a really large, good linear power supply, using Windows Media Center, using really correct interfacing from the computer to the D/A. After that, I REALLY liked it! I never heard anything but fake "music" coming out of a "Mac" computer-- even the heavily modded ones. It can sound "good", but it's just NOT REAL!
The same is true with High-Res. You try to play the good recordings on equipment that doesn't change the music in some way. When that happens (it has lately-- to me), the resolution then shines through, and music can get better yet. I say "can" because correct playback of Hi-Res material is getting much better at the expensive High-End, but is still in its infancy.
I have a Blu-Ray disc of the Eagle's Farewell Tour-- Melbourne, Australia. This show sported a good venue, (Laver Stadium), a fun audience, the best artists, and undeniably awesome electronics used to play and record the live music.
The audio on this Blu_Ray is simply stunning in its presence, honest detail, and life-like, accurately layered, clean, and clear dynamics. "You are there" is an understatement! EVERYTHING is there!
Blu-Ray playback isn't super Hi-Res, but it is almost "lossless". It's just a bit above Redbook on "resolution" numbers. It's the recording and playback equipment and performing artist's understanding of how to use their instruments and electronic equipment that counts.
Blu-Ray sound is still in its infancy also. And, I think, so is vinyl LP sound. I have a lot of vinyl and have some very good playback electronics-- some of it had to be built here because nothing out there would really do it justice. (ever heard a good phono or linestage preamp?) I NEVER heard one-- not anywhere! I had to build one and ignore all the "rules" regarding vinyl playback to get records to sound like live music. Once the playback problems were addressed, it was great also. On about one out of each thousand vinyl records, that is!
Most of those old records were junk, and still are with most newer LPs. Once again, it's the performers, the studio, and the electronics that either make or break it.
The recording medium isn't the most important thing at all. The performance and the quality of the mikes and electronics used, the characteristics of the venue, and the performing and studio artistry present at the event are the real deal.
---Dennis---
Edits: 09/02/15
when are we going to see these new DACs? :^)
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
I'll show you my DAC right now if you want, although it's probably not as nice as Peter's DAC.
Infamous sockpuppet
Peter's resistor ladder DAC may look like the love child of Mary Shelley but the sound would leave anyone breathless. My experience was in June so maybe it has been prettied up by now, but irrespective, the sound is all that matters.
Where did you hear it, if I may ask, box?
And do you run an Audio Note system?
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Peter's music room in Hove and yes, I drank the Audio Note koolaid 20 years ago.
he was kind enough to invite me there once,as we used to live nearby. Spectacular record collection. Beautiful sound. Nice tea.
What system are you running, out of curiosity?
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Peter,
I found the following in Mr. Colloms' article;
> " The Fifth Element DAC was just the same, here fed from a variety of S/PDIF sources up to 24-bit 96kHz, and it was able to read much of the higher sound quality of HD programme. (Note that it truncates words to 18-bit resolution, and the mute relay rattles helplessly with still higher sample rates.) Two extra bits and a doubled sample rate were easy to hear, which testiļ¬es to the very high quality of the DAC interface."
> "Tracks with less resolution indeed sounded less well resolved"
> "However, when streaming the few 24/96 tracks available, there was now sufficient advantage to leapfrog the CD drive's 'Red Book' performance. Now the Fifth Element DAC showed gloriously just how much more transparency, detail, openness and image scale could be generated from the higher resolution format, notwithstanding that the DAC only has an 18-bit non-oversampled chip (though admittedly a very good sounding one)."
I agree with Mr. Collom. Two extra bits and a doubled sample rate are easy to hear. I would go further and say; two more bits and double the sample rate again, and that will be easy to hear too. I also think it would sound better. All else being equal. YMMV.
> "The way our R&D looks so far there is not much point going beyond 16Bit"
I'm sorry to hear that. Well if the hi-res download market takes off over the next five years, or maybe you finish current projects, you might take another look at it.
You are telling me that AN is building a discreet 16 bit dac out of normal sized resistors? That is crazy insane, and I mean that in a good way. Best of luck to you on it. I would love to hear one, and I hope the guys who can afford them enjoy them. I think that is a very cool idea.
I think the vinyl revival was a reaction to Mp3s dominating mass music. The hi-res market is really just getting starting this year. I've been waiting a long while for the hi-res source material to show up, and it finally has. I think in five or ten years you will see it more.
> "You cannot make a claim as broad and seemingly conclusive as you do about the quality ranking of 16/44 Redbook and Hi-Rez and DSD unless you have tried the widest possible alternatives."
Why not? One good turntable is all you need to know a lot about records. Frihed got to state his observations about what he heard, and so do I, and so do you. You have shown that you really do believe in 16bit. I take back what I said about your ad copy being full of crap. I think the only disagreement we have is whether a higher bit depth and sample rate can add to sound quality.
All my sweeping pronouncements are made from hearing only one hi-res player, but it's a good one. The Sony HAP-Z1ES. Laugh if you want to, it's a fine DSD player. Interestingly it upsamples and converts 16/44 to DSD 64. It sounds really good that way. Yes I know it has a delta sigma dac, but it has to. It beats my vinyl rig, and I never thought I would be saying that. Feel free to use it as a benchmark against your own products. It's my first baby step into digital audio that doesn't involve a CD. There will be others, but for now I'm enjoying it, and building up my hi-res collection. There's an AN DAC3something on Agon now, and there will be others.
Linked below is a video about the AD5791. It seemed to have a lot of information.
Have a good one,
Jamie
---------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
As the marketing company Audio Note definitely excels, hats off, there are very few enterprises which can extort so much cash & profit from mythology around quite ancient and primitive technology.
If people are willing to pay premium price there is nothing wrong with it, its a free market economy after all.
One can see a horde of snake oil companies on tiny niche of audiophile market, AN at least have something more then megabuck cables blessed with nanotech and blood of innocent virgins, cut off from raw material in a garage.
As engineer and programmer I'm quite indifferent to AN claims of superiority, I'm not aficionado of SET and vinyl after all, however, Audio Note's brilliant marketing strategy and execution certainly worth respect.
I don't look at many audio rags, but with a few minor exceptions i haven't seen much advertising lately, at least not in the English-speaking press.
There are some social media AN sites, but they are also pretty thin on marketing and much of the "boosting" isn't in English.
I gather AN does sell a lot of equipment outside of the US, in Eastern Europe and Asia. So, I guess they have a global marketing strategy.
Their web-page could use a lot of updating, that's for sure.
The reason I started this thread was to add a plug for the high audio quality of their lower-priced gear that I have heard, which is pretty much ignored, here and on other forums i am a member of, although it does get good coverage in show reports, as a rule.
I can only relate my own Audio Note experience, which started in 1995 when I purchased a M1 pre-amp and P2 SE amp (Level 2 products I believe). Within a couple of years I added a pair of AN/J speakers and a CD2 disc player along with interconnects and speaker cable. I was very happy with this musically satisfying setup for 15 years or so.
Due to a reversal of fortune accompanied by a fit of madness I decided to sell my most of my AN gear. This was the single biggest mistake I made in audio and one I regret. Unfortunately I will probably not have the chance to revisit owning an AN system, but I certainly enjoyed my time with it when I did have one.
The bottom line is this: Even at the lower levels of hierarchy Audio Note gear is of excellent quality and was a very good value to me during my time of ownership. One thing I might add is that all the AN gear I owned never had any problems. Very well made and reliable.
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