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It was interesting stumbling onto Audio Science Review www.audiosciencereview.com and reading various test results and evaluations of audio gear. The founder and principal tester appears to have a considerable technology and audio background. His evaluations of some well-known manufacturers products, based on his measurements, are not always flattering. It's even more interesting to Google the products and read seemingly glowing reviews. I know the old retort is that great sounding gear might not measure well, but it's interesting to read his opinions.
Edits: 10/17/19Follow Ups:
... Unless you subscribe to the hard-core objectivist POV.Don't try to tell them that something sounds good if it measurements are mediocre. In fact it's hard to tell them how something sounds at all. The prevalent opinion is that " all amplifiers sound the same ", (same for DACs, etc.), assuming they are not faulty and operating within specified parameters. This most there considered "settled science".
They also consider it "settled science" that if you think you hear differences, it because of you "confirmation bias" and not that there may be actual audible difference.
Amir, principal reviewer, doesn't overtly agree with these extreme opinions but appears to tacitly approve of them. He never listens to electronics though he does to speakers, (apparently after testing them). Ironically he often admits that speakers sound better to him or worse that his measurements imply.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich ...
Edits: 12/22/20 12/22/20
.
I'm quite surprised this entire thread is allowed to stand. There are numerous violations of AA Posting Rules 2B and 2C. And at least three other rules close to violation.
My goodness.
Dave.
You are right and I'm closing the thread.
The personal attacks are despicable and resulted in a ban of Cuckoo.
-Rod
I'm trying to avoid personal attacks per se. And I expected this thread to be closed or shut down yesterday. But I generally try to defend people I respect from such personal attacks. And I don't hide my identity.
Although I moved on years ago, I still like and respect AudioAsylum.com and its "inmates" (a term we embraced back in 1999 when we were discussing what to name this new forum after a bunch of us bailed from AudioReview.com).
David van Harn
Retired American Expat
Boquete, Chiriqui, Panama
Yep, +1 on that.Anonymous trolling is a cancer affecting numerous online forums...not just audio ones.
People might not like Amir, but at least he's not hiding behind a moniker like some of the pathetic posters in this thread.
Dave.
Edits: 10/21/19
That's a term I learned from an EE professor in college and I think it's appropriate here.
I work in engineering and it's common for engineers to gather lots of data without gaining any insight, chase numbers that aren't operationally meaningful, optimize things that don't need to be optimized, or go in circles squeezing one side of the balloon after another, only to have the other side stick out.
Getting fixated on numbers is a common engineer's trap that we all fall into at some point. Managers who rose out of engineering tend to fall into it too, spending resources to capture lots of process metrics that are never utilized for process improvement. Having the numbers is like a security blanket that makes managers feel like they know what's going on in their organization.
I haven't spent a ton of time on ASF. I've mostly just followed threads there from other places. But my impression is that it's one big ego stroke where Amir gets to play with toys and everybody drools in anticipation, waiting for another high-end audio product to be deemed unworthy. Among hobbyist measurers, I think Archimago does more interesting work.
rather than tell us how much larger their sound stage grew, how many counties away the significant other, who doesn't care, could hear all the veils removed, etc. etc.... and all this number fetishing is just far too much to take?
A couple measurement guys show up, among the billions of non measurement audio poetry people, and there just aint room for the the measurement people in this town...all one or two of them.
I know. His methods are imperfect and he has more to learn. Since I am perfect, this really bugs me.
But Amir also comes into his forums and attempts to defend his choices. Debates the topics with his detractors and often times modifies his test approach according to those forum discussions.
How is trying to come up with 10 or so tests to try and finally obtain an apples to apples comparison database fixating?
I say we burn this witch asap.
A bit of " man with a hammer......." Not measuring the headroom of a phono stage and instead focusing on SIN(which was well below audible and a lot better than a turntable can produce). It suggested that he did not understand the device under test or its purpose. It is not a failure of his marvelous toy, but the fact that he needs to take time to figure out what the devices do and put together the numbers to come up with an idea of how the device works in terms of measurement and its desired purpose.
Getting an idea about where a normal operating point lies within the range, of what may be possible, all tells a lot that seems important to me. There is the question if his equipment is up to running a test that would show all the results neatly in a graph, if he doesn't realize this info is important to some, or maybe he just doesn't have the time for it. I'd like to see that covered better too. What would be a reasonable expectation in that regard? Edit: perhaps defining arbitrary hard limit such as 1% thd and level gives that is considered the overload? sorry I don't know the typical testing methods...
Edits: 10/28/19 10/28/19
How is trying to come up with 10 or so tests to try and finally obtain an apples to apples comparison database fixating?
How would you select the tests? If they are going to be used to compare and judge audio products, they should be relevant to sonic performance. Otherwise, we're just playing with numbers.
Amir seems to like measuring DACs, and focuses a lot on THD+N/SINAD.
In fact, that is how he ranks them. But why should anybody care about THD+N for a DAC? Even comparatively poor measuring modern DACs have insignificant levels of distortion and noise that are comfortably below other sources and contribute essentially nothing to the system. Filterless DACs are an exception, but they are so "broken" there's really no point in comparing them to a standard DAC.
When questioned about the relevance of certain measurements, he always pulls out the bad engineering card. I think you know what I mean. If measurements of a product show deviation from linearity creeping up below -100 dBFS, or an FFT shows spuria at the -120 dB level when some other products keep them all below -130 dB, the manufacturer will be accused of bad engineering. AS IF it's good engineering practice to spend effort chasing numbers that don't matter.
Another issue I have with trying to use Amir's measurements to judge & rank components is that I don't see him making enough of an effort to give each product a thorough evaluation. He's busy, so he typically performs a "drive by" review and if there are problems with how he did things, or things he should have done differently specific to the DUT, their discovery happens later and its buried in the comments. The review is not updated, and the headline/conclusion and ranking remain the same.
A good example of that was the first time he measured an A/V pre-pro.
The manufacturer specified a rated output of 2.4V for the XLR outputs, and a reference output level of 2V at 0 dB volume setting. Amir missed this when he measured it. Because it's an A/V pre-pro not a DAC and he was measuring the pre-amp output, the logical thing to do would have been to measure at reference volume (0 dB). Instead, he turned it up higher to get 4V from the XLR output with a full scale input. Several pages into the comments section, when the results were cross checked with others, it became evident that exceeding the rated output was highly likely to have generated the higher distortion he measured. But by then it was too late to re-measure.
Hi Dave. I think I'm mostly agreeing with almost all you said but maybe the difference is I am seeing opportunity for improvement and not reason to throw in the towel.But maybe you are overstating his focus on SINAD results in my opinion. I've noticed fairly considerable effort explaining/justifying his stated positions on it's audible significance.
Though, it must be rough satisfying his panel of online judges but at least he seems open to listening to criticism. I was impressed by this, especially during many of his phono preamp tests/reviews and their accompanying forum discussion and how the test process evolved as a result.
Which tests? I say give the people what they want! What is the online forum feedback saying? Maybe look at some of the areas used to market these devices? Start with the spec tables? He seems pretty open to questioning his process.
That we have been seeing the entire broadband plots rather than single points in a table, as an example is like a dream come true in my opinion. I keep pinching myself.
When I was in his forum interrogating him, for a couple posts, about how much weight can be put in using his measurements to evaluate the -120dB mains related spuria type defects, showing up in the various reviews. He seemed completely reasonable in my opinion. He said you can't. He also spent a bit a bit of effort explaining more detail of his process for me and a few of it's shortcomings and basically explaining why not to me. He seemed pretty cool about it.
I agree a professional certified lab would have all the relevant details about the level of environmental control which are in place for these tests such as cable routing, mains power quality, test chamber ambient rfi exposure levels dring testing, etc. etc., stated in bold letters right up front for all to see. There would also be no shifting of the evaluation methodology, the suite of tests performed, etc. midway into the data collection process.
All his test are not apples to apples. I don't think that means any of it is worthless. It's all relative, man! We just don't know how so. ha. I say, give the man a break since he keeps trying to be improving. There seems like a lot that is good even if it isn't up to the level of what a pro test lab might do or where he may eventually be able to get to after hes been ding it for many years.
Edit: Which review/s does he call out a company for power supply noise issues? I'm asking since I thought it was weird I kind of wondered if he was often possibly ignoring those powers supply frequency problems too much.
Edits: 10/22/19
Edit: Which review/s does he call out a company for power supply noise issues? I'm asking since I thought it was weird I kind of wondered if he was often possibly ignoring those powers supply frequency problems too much.
Sorry, just getting back to this thread. I've seen him comment on it in multiple reviews. The link below is an example.
The FFT shows odd order power supply harmonics at the -120 dB level, which get a mention. The only thing poking above -120 dB is the second harmonic at -90 dB. Amir called that "quite poor". Does anybody think 2nd harmonic at -90 dB is remotely audible?
Yeah I guess I see what you mean. If he is going to pick on a company for that, he needs to tell a little about what he did to try and make sure it wasn't just something peculiar to his setup, ie whether he fiddled around to see if it wasn't just how he had his cables or where he arranged the equipment etc. It's hard to say what happened for sure. Not enough detail given. Maybe some words about whether the SINAD test is noise or distortion limited and how much margin there is from whichever of the two is the dominant effect in each case.
I doubt many would find -90dB 2nd bothersome if they even heard it at all. Though it is very interesting and makes me wonder how they did it. Is it in analog or in software?
the only valuable measurement that one could ever make.....
The rest, - is just trolling and extrapolating another highly subjective opinion.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Because the output of one of the most accurate pieces of professional grade, analog test gear on the planet means nothing?
""Because the output of one of the most accurate pieces of professional grade, analog test gear on the planet means nothing?""
I wouldn't call his comparative listening skills "professional grade."
And the term "accurate" is so relative that it's meaningless....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
That Amir mostly only comments about what he thinks he's hearing when he thinks something is actually audible and he thinks he can hear it is perfect if you asked me. I wouldn't have him change a thing about that.
"And the term "accurate" is so relative that it's meaningless...."
Most of the reviews are commentary about how he's reading back results from his test gear. As long as he runs the tests as directed by the manufacturer, keeps the equipment calibrated, etc, the tests are presumably then completely relative to the gears specs as quoted by the manufacturer, ie terms the entire audio industry seems contented to do marketing with but in a much more traceable manner than most audio equipment manufacturer marketing "specs"....
That is kind of like the opposite of "meaningless" in my opinion.
The ONLY value is comparative listening experiences, and testimonials about longevity.
No component is "good" or "bad" outside of context. Even a Meitner sucks when you hook it up to your Sharp BoomBox. Of course, - no one does this.
These are experiences, and the best test of a "better" experience is to actually listen.....
A manufacturers specs are valuable only in a sense of a rough guideline to assist with the relationship of other components in SYSTEM.....
I wonder the last time Amir had more than one piece of high performance audio equipment on his bench?
I also have my doubts, - given the fact that his work amounts to cowardly trolling, - about his measuring gear. AKM's DAC analyzer cost over $30,000, - I am curious if he has anything like that. His measuring tests on John/Alex's LPS-1 was widely regarded as trolling, and simply put, - a joke. Amir's trolling falls right in line with pseudo-science postulated by that other troll, - Archimago.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"The ONLY value is comparative listening experiences, and testimonials about longevity."
you later supplied a a somewhat believable counter-argument to this statement with the following:
"A manufacturers specs are valuable only in a sense of a rough guideline to assist with the relationship of other components in SYSTEM....."
I say "somewhat" because the only question here is regarding the roughness of the guideline in question. The equipment Amir uses appears to be fairly well specified by it's manufacturer.
That is a nice thing about when reviewers are using a common piece of commercially available test gear we can all download the manuals for and read all about if we want. Not that Amir has controlled for everything in the universe but it sure moves the bar alot higher for us to nit pick at what he's doing.
His measurements mean a quite a bit more than nothing. You said it yourself.
yes, when used by someone who does not even know how to work Windows Media Player or suss out a ground loop.
A Ferrari in the hands of a child is a dangerous thing.
Edits: 10/21/19
It's not as though he is running a calibrated emi lab. There is only so much one can accomplish without spending ultra dollars. But doing as well as possible with the equipment at hand seems a worthwhile conversation...
Amir has seemed open to answering questions about his test jig and methodology on his forum.
I can't recall any blatant intentional seeming hand waving, anyway.
If he is really failing to be diligent in the tests, why not educate him or make suggestions on what he's doing wrong?
What should Amir be doing that he is not already doing in your opinion?
The issues many have with Amir less to do with his technical ability to use the gear, than with his agenda, vigilante attitude, and his incredible over estimation of his skills to interpret the data.
I haven't seen a ton of evidence of much of an agenda than exposing what he's decided is "evil" and "undiscovered talent" in the industry.
The thing that has me wondering is why hasn't he managed to get his hands on any Burl Bombers, or Lavry DAC's etc. Where is the love/hate for the pro market?
He also tests phono preamps but has ironically resisted spending much effort on the many presumably questionable, by his apparent metric of bang for the buck, high priced pieces available in that sector.
I'll give you that he is a bit of a character, probably hard to take for some. What is with the Japanese lady Avatar? If that is, indeed, what that actually is. That one apparently went over my head, I guess.
Some serious whining there, Sr. Andre.
Amir is quite skilled with his analyzer, and works with the manufacturer to help audio designers and manufacturers improve their testing methods. His Agenda is to persuade the audio industry to raise standards and make even better performing audio gear.
How is that a negative attribute?
His analytical skills with are quite good, and a number of respected industry experts participate at ASR.
What are your skills and credentials with respect to audio equipment testing and analysis?
And why do you hide under an umbrella of multiple forum ID's and flail about as a sockpuppet?
Do you still use the handles Fair Hedon/Brinkman Ship/agtp/Ishmael Slapowitz/KeenObserver/Digital Assassin? Or do you need to keep inventing new ones as you display your anger around the audio forum universe?
Thanks for proving my points, Dave VH. Now all can see your true character and agenda.
And if anyone is taken in by Dave VH and his replies, understand that he is employing the dishonest common politician tactic known as a red herring. He does this often, but this most recent reply of his is a prime example. He'll fit in well at ASR.
P.S. I am not Andre, nor do I know who Dave VH is referring to. I shouldn't have to make this disclaimer, but feel that Dave will continue with this particular red herring until his diversion is successful. Please be aware of what Dave VH is engaged in here. Again, it is a common dirty politician trick in order to divert attention and raise doubt against critics.
Interesting tactic, Andre. Perhaps that isn't your real name - just another "pseudonym" that you use.
The again, you end all of this speculation, be a man, and identify yourself.
Why do you hide behind multiple pseudonyms?
And a keyboard in the hands of a sockpuppet is quite annoying...
One can certainly make a fetish of the numbers, and it takes an effort to keep things in perspective. But I think it better to have them than not.
I've got nothing against hobbyists measuring things. I make a lot of measurements myself (mostly acoustic though). The hard part is figuring out whether you're measuring something useful and what it means. The thing I don't like about ASR is watching people pass judgment on products based on arbitrarily selected measures of performance that haven't been demonstrated to be sonically relevant.
cult-of-personality fascism...
Electrical Engineering dogma actually interferes the proper application of the scientific method, and hence any kind of discovery.
FWIW, Excellent post on your part
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I have no idea where this false meme of desiring bad measurements comes from, although it is fostered by some of those whose audio ox has been gored.
Actually, most at ASR "drool with anticipation" at the prospect of another excellently designed and engineered piece of audio gear being tested, and found to be approaching SOTA standards. Many of us were very pleased to see Schiit respond to Amir's testing and evaluation with better engineering - while still keeping their quirky reputation.
Some ASR members have sent their personal gear in for testing, and if it was found to be not so great by the numbers - they accept that and continue to enjoy what their eyes and ears told them was a good component.
I find that level of openness and honesty refreshing.
And yes, it is primarily a technical (science and engineering) forum, and not yet another subjectivist audio forum. One might guess that its appeal would be limited - yet ASR has become incredibly popular among audio enthusiasts - young (the headphone and IEM crowd) and old (the amps and loudspeaker crowd).
Most regulars at ASR seem to believe that we should buy and own what we like, regardless of measurements - but it is interesting to know how a piece of kit measures. We believe that false advertising to the public is wrong, and back the practice of exposing that and sometimes even the outright fraud that is seen in the audio world.
People should participate at as many internet audio forums as they like - the most popular ones offer an interesting spectrum of approaches to the subject.
The fact that the Dear Leader endorsed MQA, which made him the laughing stock to any one but an ASR True Believer, shows how disingenuous he is.
It is not only anti consumer, but measures horribly, and marketed based on outright technical lies.
Yep, ASR apologists should read the main MQA thread. Amir was exposed, he abandoned the thread, then it was was locked. It was reopened, he was exposed even worse, and he abandoned the thread, again.
It will be amusing to see how the ASR fanboys spin this. Hard to claim the Dear Leader is pro science, pro consumer, and unbiased, or gives a damn about the truth.
It's also worth reading the comments section and links provided (of past dishonest Amir interactions) in the Archimago MQA blog.
Excellent references, thanks. The links put things is stark perceptive.
I could not find an endorsement of MQA by Amirm, do you have a link?There is, however, a 68-page discussion on MQA at ASR which I am not going to take time to read. The general attitude toward MQA at ASR is that is a money-making scheme that adds no value for the consumer.
Edits: 10/21/19
It's clear that Dave VH is not interested in honestly assessing any of the information presented. He is an ASR apologist/sycophant and will ignore any and all links presented. He posts cringe-worthy over the top praise/apologetics/promotion, which contradict the links and evidence he's directed to, and then runs off to show Amir what a loyal and devoted ASR member he is, practically begging for acknowledgment of his deeds. You must really want that ASR moderator position, Dave VH.Read the comments section and commenter links/references in the Archimago MQA blog and you'll see your entire position and ASR apologetics defeated. I know you're not really interested in that, Dave, you have a different agenda, but perhaps others will see what's really going on with your disingenuous responses.
Edits: 10/21/19
LOL, Andre. My agenda, like many participants both here and at ASR, is openness and honesty.
Actually, I don't "run off" to ASR, but I do spend a fair amount of time there daily (I'm retired), and hop over here occasionally to joust with a known troll/sockpuppet and visit my former favorite audio forum - AudioAsylum.
Hey people, recognize the complaining and whining style? Intelligent web wizards are aware that srjit is yet another sockpuppet name Andre is using here today.
Andre thinks that insults will frighten me off, but I have witnessed such troll and sockpuppet tactics - and challenged them - since my IT days in the 1990's.
Sorry, Andre, you've been outed.
And post after post after post defending MQA, putting Bob Stuart on a pedestal, trying to position himself as important industry insider, and insulting those who expose MQA based on technical facts.'
We should not be surprised that one charlatan has been duped by another.
Sorry, I am not interested in MQA and believe it to be a passing fad like the Elcassette. I know that Amir has expressed a liking for it, but it is just a fringe attempt at generating revenue and has no real value to music listeners. My collection ranges from simple 128Kbps from my early attempts at ripping, up to 192/24 flac, and I enjoy it all.
And I haven't seen any indication of Amir "pushing" or "promoting" MQA.
Like other occasional threads, when it became a nest of ad-homs and personal attacks, it was closed - but no posts were deleted that I am aware of.
The below quote from Archimago's forum kind of sums it up for me:
BTW, having taken a look at that long ASR thread on MQA, I sure don't see these purported "sheep" following whatever Amir says. Rather, I see something more like a pile-on from many, including ASR regulars, contesting Amir's view on MQA!
This is why, as I said, the characterizations I've seen here of ASR members as some bunch of guru-following sheep struck me as fairly suspicious (I see plenty of people giving different viewpoints there).
I will concede that Archimago documents pushback from the faithful on Amir's MQA love.
It is because he could not measure it or provide any technical data, it was way above his pay grade to do that, unlike Archimago, Paul Miller, or several others at CA.
Wow, I just discovered that I am jousting with the infamous Andre Marc, sockpuppet extraordinaire and veteran of multiple bannings across the spectrum of internet audio forums.
I feel honored to have encountered and gone toe-to-toe such a formidable foe!
How 'ya doin', Andre? Is the below really you?
Excuse me? I have no clue what you are on about.
Here:
NT
By the digits, eh?
As for the rest, I concur. (Bet that made your day!)
See link below.Test of a very modest Sony "amplifier" [ sic ] -- OK, it's a receiver not an amplifier, but that may be too subtle for an engineer. ;)
Sony, apparently, specs the amp for 6 ohm or higher loads. Tester runs it into 4 ohms and smokes it. Blames Sony.
Now, as a scientist, I'll admit that I might do something like that! (i.e., try the amp under proscribed conditions) We're funny that way.* I don't think I'd blame Sony for my hubris .
But an engineer, I would've thought, would respect the work of the engineers who set the limits of performance for a product.
Actual content from the review of this component:
" There is a "hot" symbol on top of the amp for a reason: even at modest output power this thing gets really warm and toasty on top. For this reason, and wanting to pass UL certification with respect to heat generated, Sony only specs the STR-DH190 for 6 ohm speaker load and higher. Don't worry, it works "fine" at 4 ohm as well as my measurements show. "
" Couldn't run this test at 4 ohm because the amp would either shut down or when I reduced the level, not achieve 1% THD. More on this in a bit. "
" At this point, I decided to run the 20 to 20 kHz power sweep, regulating the output to 1% THD. This involves the analyzer at each frequency point, raising and lowering the input level until distortion equals 1%. I kept failing to get there at all frequencies with the amp shutting down or not getting to high enough distortion. Needing to play with the parameters a lot, I put a fan on top the amplifier heatsinks and kept playing around. Next thing I know, it shuts down but no longer powers up. The power LED lights up but the rest of the display does not. And after about 8 or so seconds, it shuts itself down.
Left it to cool overnight but this morning still does not power up. Nothing is smoked in there but there is a smell of burnt varnish which points the finger likely at the power transformer. "
" The beheaded pink panther is making a showing here naturally due to the unit failing. The protection circuit should have saved this product but it did not. Likely it doesn't look to the power supply getting overburdened. "
* 2019 Nobel Laureate William Kaelin: "Engineers live for expected results. Scientists live for unexpected results."
source: https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2019/10/09/dr-william-kaelin-nobel-prize-physiology-medicine
all the best,
mrh
Edits: 10/21/19
Anyone who spends time at ASR will see for themselves that the attitude is brutal honesty - even if it means publishing truth as in the post to which I am responding. Whether or not a component works and tests well, or is a miserable failure - the truth will be told - and criticism supported by logic and evidence will not only be tolerated, but is encouraged. I don't expect Sony to respond to that review. Many of their current products are decent, but they left their obsession with quality in the last century.
Regarding the Sony, Amir tested the amplifier section only and not the tuner section, but I agree that the error in the description is careless writing. Many, many loudspeakers today are 4Ω, so I just posted a question about the choice of testing at 4Ω. )OTOH, even JA at Stereophile has blown up very expensive amps running normal amplifier "stress-tests" that any well-designed amplifier should be able to pass.)
Below is what ASR members really, truly look forward to - not more engineering disasters...
Headphone Listening Tests
I started with my very low impedance (25 ohm) closed back Drop Mrspeakers Ether CX. In high gain there was plenty of volume to get loud. I was however able to push the Archel2 into distortion and cutting out. Mind you, I would not be listening at this level but this is a test that other high performance amplifiers pass.
The situation turned around completely with Sennheiser HD-650 headphones. There was incredible amount of power, detail, authority and fidelity to die for. It is as if this amp and the headphone are made for each other.
Conclusions
Yes, we have another state-of-the-art audio product. Not just headphone amplifier but audio product. And from a company with a one-person designer. Yet we have much larger companies making excuses for the performance of their unit.
You now have no less than 5 choices in high-performance headphone amplifiers that are provably transparent in sound reproduction. They respect the content you play by not polluting it with noise and distortion, letting its fidelity to shine through.
Headphone users are living the golden age of amplification. It is so gratifying to see companies like Geshelli putting performance first rather than some mythical story as to why their device sounds better.
The only weakness here is that you can't drive low impedance headphones to deafening levels.
It is my pleasure to strongly recommend the Geshelli Labs Archel2 headphone amplifier.
Sorry, it took me a while to read this whole darn thread. I followed your link, read the review, and he reaches the wrong conclusion.The volume control on this amp is effectively "broken". It only offers 10-15 dB of usable attenuation before the channel level imbalance reaches an audible level, and beyond 30 dB of attenuation it really goes off the rails. No product with a potentiometer volume control should ever be considered state of the art, but this one is much worse than most. Amir glossed over this problem and declared it "provably transparent in sound reproduction." ROTFLMAO
As usual, he spends the bulk of his review on distortion and noise, and the thread is full of acolytes oohing and ahhing over the harmonic distortion performance. In that particular respect, the product IS state of the art, but it also doesn't matter. The majority of head amps he's measured have distortion levels way below audible.
How can you justify fetishizing one aspect of measured performance way beyond the point of no return, while ignoring the obvious audible problem?
Edits: 10/24/19
Understanding of Alpha and Beta as the tests - for all hypothesis testing - might be a bit of an issue.
BTA I could be wrong.
;-)!
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
As an electrical/mechanical product a system is ultimately measurable if you define what you expect from the output given the input. Normally this is no change. We can't do it now.
But this doesn't mean there aren't measurements that are significant clues to performance some times. I saw a friend pick a cartridge not knowing what it was from a square wave and frequency response and it turned out to be exactly what he expected. I saw the same man design 'conventional speakers where he chose the response of each driver/crossover combination and get to the 95% point he wanted before listening.
The point is we aren't at a totally scientific point in design but we do know something and it is foolish to ALWAYS say just listen and that there are no useful measurements. It is unfortunate that often the standard measurements such as harmonic and intermodulation distortion don't correlate to results.
nt
all the best,
mrh
If "Amir" tested a Ferrari and a KIA, he'd rate the latter higher if he found that the lug nuts' torques on the KIA were all closer to their factory specs than they were on the former vehicle.They are farking clueless as to what is important in the reproduction of audio* -- but their drivel is danged fun to read, and read it I do.
__
* e.g., I wonder if Amir and his sycophants realize that most dynamic loudspeakers have harmonic distortion levels of 1 to several percent... how the fug could there be an audible difference in components of, say, 0.1% vs. 0.02% THD? The two components could well have audible differences -- but not due to the levels of THD per se .
all the best,
mrh
Edits: 10/18/19 10/18/19
Let alone what drives those two critical indicators for bullshit.
P usually set to .95, insufficient number of trials aka 'n'
NO mention of Beta, the Bullshit indicator.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
The truly goofy part of this is that a *lot* of the basic theory of distortion was described back in the middle of the 20th century. Pretty well ignored for more than a half century now.
McDonald's has sold over 250 billion, with a "b", burgers in that time...
avoid this site at all costs.
the founder is a sociopathic, mean spirited nut. He has a very specific agenda which is to disparage and tear down gear he "reviews" by respected brands.
he has been outed as a charlatan numerous times.
pure rubbish.
New user, eh? What a coincidence. I wonder which piece of gear, measuring poorly in Amirs tests, you own or are selling.
Nt
:) Good one!
/
And yet, a kind man I'm sure.
Not really. Very few narcissists are.
However, he does have nice test gear. :8^)
true. with no clue how to use it. :)
nt
all the best,
mrh
Wait - isn't it all done automatically?? Just plug the gear in, press the right button, and the display will tell you exactly how the device under test sounds.
and the display will tell you exactly how the device under test sounds.
Not how it sounds. How it measures using uncorrelated sine waves.
Anyone here a sine wave fancier? ;)
I cannot even speculate as to why , however.
I should mention that I spent my career as an analytical biochemist, so I am reasonably measurement-savvy... which is probably why my opinion of ASR is a negative as it is.
:)
all the best,
mrh
I was going to joke, but instead I'll just offer that all, as in every single music signal is composed of sine waves. That's fundamental physics as mathematically described, and really not the crux of the measurement problem.Almost all of the tests that are talked about in the magazine reviews and in manufacturer's literature are incredibly simplistic and don't represent the same level of sophistication found in other fields where large numbers of complex signals are transmitted. On the basis of this alone, it's no wonder that test results can't correlate to sound quality.
I'm not saying that the more elaborate testing already available from instrument companies like Audio Precision is yet able to accurately predict how any or every person will perceive sound reproduction. But, the tests that are argued about now are barely basic. It's about equivalent to a doctor basing his or her entire diagnosis on your temperature. Not enough.
There's actually an impressive amount of good, useful information available on the internet. Yet, it's pretty much ignored. Just this week, I was looking at the late Siegfried Linkwitz's web site. There's a wealth of well researched information there. And, it's free! Very few people seem to care about investing time to understand what he wrote. Instead, the same old discussions like the sound of second harmonics get thrown around.
I suppose in the end, it doesn't matter because for most people, because this is only a hobby. But, coming back around to the original subject, higher resolution tests of simple system characteristics don't really tell you very much.
Edits: 10/18/19
I'll just offer that all, as in every single music signal is composed of sine waves. That's fundamental physics as mathematically described, and really not the crux of the measurement problem.
Evidently, we have very different musical tastes. Mine are composed of content with complex harmonic structures and chords, not uncorrelated sine waves.
But, coming back around to the original subject, higher resolution tests of simple system characteristics don't really tell you very much.
This is what I'm saying.
Wait - this is not a question of musical taste. Not at all. It's a matter of the physics.
Even "content with complex harmonic structures and chords" is a mathematical summation and multiplication of sine waves. A fellow by the name of Joseph Fourier described this in detail over two centuries ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_analysis
http://sites.music.columbia.edu/cmc/MusicAndComputers/chapter3/03_03.php
One other thing... Even if you have two violins playing nominally the same piece, their sinusoidal outputs are not always correlated. For that to happen, they'd have to be phase locked. Now, it happens that this actually does often take place in real life - though it's often not considered in equipment design; another long story - due to how musicians' brains work when they perform with each other. But, this is not guaranteed by any means.
It's a matter of the physics.
Absolutely. Music is far more complex than simple uncorrelated sine waves, aka "test tones".
Achieving great numerical results with the latter tells you nothing about how it handles the former. Ask Crown. ;)
Yeah, but...
In a simple harmonic distortion test, there is one tone and the harmonics are by nature correlated. For a bunch of other reasons, a simple harmonic test doesn't tell you much.
In an IMD test, it is possible to correlate the tones, especially if you have enough of them.
Whether the tones are correlated to each other or not is only a detail that isn't the crux of the situation.
The critical point, I think anyway, is that in actual systems that try to reproduce many tones, the power in all the intermodulation distortion products just completely swamps any simple harmonics. That is true in a home audio system as much as it is in a modern CATV or wireless transmission system. This was also described in great detail in the middle of the 20th century or thereabouts. Guys at Bell Labs and the BBC churned out papers on the subject.
Pretending that this doesn't matter is only fooling oneself.
In addition, the audio world tends to be a too blasé about interfering signals that are running around the system through the power line connections and so on. The general idea is that "if it's out of the audio band, you can't hear it", etc. Whether you can hear the stuff outside the band isn't the important part. These signals can and will mix (mix in the mathematical sense, not the usual audio engineering term) with other signals to create yet more distortion products within the audio band.
This problem has gotten worse over time with digital audio becoming a big part of home systems plus the garbage spread everywhere by various microprocessor based computing systems like you might find in your alarm clock and by poorly filtered switching power supplies.
The usual response to a comment like this is that the feedback system found in most amplifying devices cleans that right up. Not so! In order for the feedback to work you need adequate open loop gain at the frequencies you're trying to reject for the feedback to work. Guess what! The open loop gain drops dramatically in most amplifying devices aimed for audio use outside the audio band. So, this rejection mechanism doesn't work. This isn't some secret mystery either - people just choose to ignore it.
Anyway, I've gotten way off topic and have probably pissed off most people who had the bad fortune to stumble into this thread. So, fini.
Pretending that this doesn't matter is only fooling oneself.
Your welcome to your opinion, but I find zero correlation with THD or IMD telling you anything valuable as to how an audio component sounds. You need not present any more logical fallacies.
The usual response to a comment like this is that the feedback system found in most amplifying devices cleans that right up. Not so! In order for the feedback to work you need adequate open loop gain at the frequencies you're trying to reject for the feedback to work. Guess what! The open loop gain drops dramatically in most amplifying devices aimed for audio use outside the audio band. So, this rejection mechanism doesn't work.
Agree 100%. As does Nelson Pass . Which is why I'm not a fan of op amps which require ~40 db of corrective feedback due to their large open loop gain. Great numbers. Mediocre sound.
First, please point to where I suggested in any way that the existing tests have been shown to correlate to musical enjoyment, realism, or whatever floats your boat. In fact, I specifically said that was not the case.
Second, if you don't believe that corruption of the original musical waveform - which was in fact variations in air pressure - through noise and distortion in the electrical transduction of same is the cause for inaccurate or unsatisfying musical reproduction, just what is the cause? Evil leprechauns casting spells over the listener?
And, although I am not a fan of opamps in audio, I think you misunderstand just how feedback works. Or, you didn't spell it out right. Open loop gain is not what needs to be corrected - that can be done with a resistor or two. Large open loop gain is what allows feedback to work in amplifiers. It is part of the correction mechanism.
Maybe feedback has been used as a magical cure-all where it's not. People who design and build open loop amplifiers might specifically address problems that designers who've used feedback have chosen to ignore. Some pretty smart people believe that feedback has not been applied suitably in audio products. They could be right - I try to keep an open mind for the possibilities.
I wasn't going to continue here, and will not after this post, but since you chose to throw derogatory terms in my direction, I felt I should reply so that everybody is clear on what I am saying. You can agree or disagree with me if you like, even in a public forum such as this one. You can call me stupid, ignorant, and whatever else you want, too, but please don't twist around what I said or did not say.
despite what appears to be now a tongue in cheek response which began this exchange.
but since you chose to throw derogatory terms in my direction...
The logical fallacy you employed is Argument from Authority . Unnecessary.
Large open loop gain is what allows feedback to work in amplifiers.
Conversely, inherently linear designs that don't require corrective feedback need not possess such.
The exact quote:
"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing." Daniel R. von Recklinghausen
..if it measures badly it will have a character that many prefer.
Regards,
13DoW
just because you CAN; something that has no impact on SQ.
Obviously you measure what you can. You are correct that poor objective performance does not preclude good subjective acceptance. But, I think it far more likely we are all tolerant of, or even prefer poor performance rather than the existence of an unidentified element that causes good sound.
13DoW
If you find that tests of noise and THD using uncorrelated sine waves provide complete insight to what you hear, his tests are meaningful.
OTOH, he did find a minor flaw in the LPS-1 power supply I use which was later rectified. :)
I do find it more useful than the Vogon-poetry listening impressions we usually get.
nt
all the best,
mrh
I learned it was an utterly useless metric when I was a teenager. Information that conveys no knowledge.
I learn far more from those who understand music and its subtleties. To each his own.
But I don't like to see a lot of high order harmonics, or worse, an-harmonic peaks. I don't see why THD+N should be above -80 dB or so. Also, I don't like to see a lot of mains noise, shows bad design and workmanship IMO.
And, yes, speakers have a lot more distortion, but I don't see that as a reason to accept a lot of noise and distortion from our electronics. I think some people just want to justify a pure oenophile-like approach to audio where there sense impressions won't be contradicted by some propeller-beanie with a voltmeter.
But I don't like to see a lot of high order harmonics, or worse, an-harmonic peaks. I don't see why THD+N should be above -80 dB or so. Also, I don't like to see a lot of mains noise, shows bad design and workmanship IMO.
On what basis?
A pure numbers man would note that the noise floor of a typical listening room is far above the level of noise, distortion, and other artifacts produced by any digital source with a reconstruction filter, even the poorest measuring ones. By the numbers, the only digital sources that should have audible problems are filterless NOS, which are intentionally designed to pollute the audio band with images and noise.
Despite that, most of us perceive differences in sound quality from different digital sources. Some audiophiles insist they are huge. Personally, I find them small, but often meaningful. I've never found an objective metric that could help me pick a digital source.
Speakers are at the other end of the spectrum. I find a very strong correlation between what I see in a full suite of measurements and what I hear. If Amir wants to contribute to audio science, he should start there. But he seems to prefer measuring DACs, perhaps because they are the easiest things to measure.
so, for a long time, audio designers did -- many (not all!) of them succeeded in producing marginally stable, bad sounding amplifiers that measured great (at least with respect to THD and also, sometimes,in terms of bandwidth).
You know what HH Scott's Daniel von Recklinghausen said, I reckon. :)
If not, see link below.
all the best,
mrh
...and we all know what happens to those poor souls that suck up to Vogon poets.
Totally incorrect. There was no such flaw. Perhaps you missed Uptone's rebuttal?The product update to Mach 2 had absolutely zero to do with ASR.
Edits: 10/18/19
Totally incorrect. There was no such flaw. Perhaps you missed Uptone's rebuttal?
Perhaps you're referring to something different than I. The original Meanwell energizer was exhibiting "high-impedance leakage" and a wire running from AC to DC output ground was installed. All subsequent models contained that enhancement.
I just purchased the updated version directly from them.
Post #59
Notice the dates involved. The audioscience post was in August.
In September, John Swenson (the designer) acknowledged the observation in September with this post
The fact is Amir @ ASR had no clue what he was measuring and made several confirmed incorrect amateurish technical observations.
Out of sheer envy and mean spirited intent he starts out with an agenda which is to tear down successful companies like Schiit and Sonore because he is a failed engineer, failed business man, and a total loser.
nt
all the best,
mrh
..actually he does...he was an "admin" at the horrific WBF site, and he made it clear that was his agenda.
in fact, he fully admitted to not owning a SINGLE piece of music when he started ASR. None.
He had a serious complex after being exposed as a failed "technology" executive at Microsoft when the many of the internal emails were leaking from the DOJ anti trust suit. It showed Bill Gates strongly reprimanding him and his team for allowing Apple to take them by surprise with iTunes and the iPod. He then started an audio related business which failed miserably.
I'll bet he or she is a bitter, wounded SOB.
;)
all the best,
mrh
I have no idea...
all the best,
mrh
The place is vile. He was ousted after an uprising..that may tell you thing, he was even too insufferable for this place.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Some farkin' Einstein he, then!
Why not blame the underling!
jm
The thing is, it actually worked for him. I don't think Bill is especially concerned about having enough money to retire on.
Amir has suffered one humiliation after another. He was forced out of Microsoft after he backed HD-DVD or Blu Ray..(LOL!!!), failed to come up with a download store (with 5 years and unlimited billions allocated)....
The Zune, Windows Media Player..all laughable failures in the scrap heap.
Sounds like you've been doing oppo research on the guy. Wait'll they find out about his emails!
I have no idea what any of that has to do with measuring electronics with an Audio Precision analyzer, but that does seem to freak people out in unusual ways.
Ok, let me spell it out.Anyone can measure with the best equipment on the planet. Knowing how to interpret the results and what conclusions to draw, ALL this assuming you have your testing set up correctly, is a different matter.
Amir has zero credibility, zero engineering chops and is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. Is that clear?
Here is an example He "measured" the Sonore microRendu streamer, claiming it caused a "6 dB rise" in the output of the DAC. No it did not. He was using the WMA which was not outputting bit perfect data. He made several other bufoonish mistakes in that debacle. He has to suffer the public humiliation of admitting his mistake after denying it vehemently.
Another example is he measured "noise" in one product that turned out to be a ground loop in his own setting.
He should be shut down.
Edits: 10/19/19
I disagree with your assertions and character attacks. There are a lot of experienced engineers, scientists and audio technicians on ASR and Amirm's work is essentially peer reviewed in real time on the site. That is the scientific method in action.
DK.RoK
Ah, one of the faithful appears to defend the honor.
Sorry, but someone who starts a site called AUDIO Science Review and does not listen to or know the first thing about music defines the term absurd.
Ah, more ad hominem attacks, I'm one of the faithful and he doesn't listen to music. I raised the topic of scientific method and peer review which you ignored. I have to leave this discussion now, I'm out of troll biscuits.
DK.RoK
....nice try with trying to float the notion of "real time" peer review
That was a good one.
His history at Microsoft has nothing to do with anything. This is the attitude that anything you can dig up about the "other team" is grist for the mill, and it indicates a level of investment in destroying the "opposition" by just slinging whatever schiit you think will stick that is very telling.
And yet, he used his Microsoft gig as the vita for his supposed expertise in measuring and passing judgement on equipment.
IMO, he came across as a bitter guy with an agenda. What was scarier, however, were his 'followers,' who hung on his every word.
Hey Daverz, looks like you were here back in the days when I was active here and moderating the tubes forums. After being away from audio forums for 15 years, I got back into audio forum participation when I discovered ASR.
Looking with my old "AA moderator's eyes" the antagonist here registered two days ago and started ranting and raving and attacking AmirM and ASR with a couple of cherry-picked negatived from a large body of excellent science and testing. Looks like someone in a fit of rage because some product he likes tested poorly.
OTOH, I see a number of longer-registered AudioAsylum inmates posting reasonable responses only to get smacked down with angry babbling. Apparently a lot of the "old-timer" good-guys are still hanging out here.
I enjoy ASR these days because of my many years working in science - and a lifelong hobby of audio. Amir's stated agenda - which is supported by his actions - is for audio honesty and truth. In some ways, he has facilitated a new competition to see who (from around the world, big and small) can make the best performing audio electronics, although a lot of the focus is on headphones and IEMs, which I am not into.
(While hanging out here tonight, I noticed that one of the discrete AA ads was for Rich Brkich's Signature Sound . I bought a David Belles tube preamp from Rich many years ago, and more recently, a used 1993 Classé Model Seventy power amp in excellent condition. I had the amp shipped to Miami from New York, and then forwarded to me here in the mountains of Western Panama, where I have lived as a retired expat since 2012. Even though Rich is an upstate New York dealer, he was excellent to deal with both from California and from Panama. (He is also an engineer, and thoroughly tested the amp, and then ran it driving his office system for a week before shipping it to me.)
"...back in the days when I was active here and moderating the tubes forums. After being away from audio forums for 15 years, I got back into audio forum participation when I discovered ASR." Dave VH
Are you looking for a moderating job at ASR and proving your loyalty and unquestioning dedication to Amir by offering up your fanboi defenses? You actually went to him and bragged about your posts here? "Look at me, Amir, I'm a good boy! I will be loyal, dedicated and unquestioning in defending you." LOL.
We know Thomas left ASR for a brief period after discovering his boss is less than honest. He went over to Computer Audiophile/Audiophile Style looking for a new home, but after realizing they weren't interested in his moderating duties, he went crawling back to Amir, promising renewed unquestioning loyalty and dedication.
Here's an example of the character of Amir. On his site there are a few Trump supporting Christian nationalists who would like nothing more than to see Amir's people and home country eliminated. Travel bans, sanctions, wars, etc. These are people Amir would consider his ASR friends and he's perfectly aware of their views. Does Amir care about their views and support on such matters? Of course not. As long as you give him support on his site and give money he's perfectly okay with it. A total sell out and proven liar. His ancestors should be proud.This site linked might consider removing Amir's name (#28) if they're purpose is to promote positive perception of their country and people.
Edits: 10/20/19 10/20/19
My, my, my. More whining and lashing out desperately with unfounded personal insults by an anonymous AudioAsylum inmate who registered yesterday - October 20. (I carefully checked the date this time.)
Those who know me - in person and online - know that I am honest and forthright, and dislike bullschiit. Although ASR is owned and run by Amirm, it hosts an incredible collection of intelligent, educated and rational participants from around the globe. Although ASR is a relatively young internet audio forum, is already very popular and web traffic - the number of visits to the site - is increasing as its popularity grows steadily. Many people like the atmosphere of honesty and the encouragement of transparency in business and advertising shared by the owner and the regular participants at ASR.
Those of us who participate regularly there appreciate all of the hard work Amir does to test audio gear, and the way he not only praises those who offer products with excellent design and engineering, and criticizes those who don't - and won't. People who come to ASR to defend poorly designed and manufactured audio gear are met first with reason, and later criticism and ridicule if they persist in defending shoddy design, workmanship and lousy performance. We (the regular participants at ASR) feel good when companies like Schiit acknowledge issues and address them. Schiit products that are well made and perform as they should are lauded. Amir demonstrates that he certainly does not want to "destroy" any company, but would rather "hold their feet to the fire" and encourage them to improve their engineering efforts and perhaps become even more successful.
I have absolutely no interest in moderating any internet forum, and as a voluntary participant at that forum, I am a peer to Amir and the many science-minded and audio technology professionals who visit ASR. Even though some of the visitors there are internationally-known and respected pro- and home-audio professionals, we all participate in discussions as equals, and give respect to those persons have demonstrated technical expertise and shared it with us.
When you say "You actually went to him and bragged about your posts here? "Look at me, Amir, I'm a good boy! I will be loyal, dedicated and unquestioning in defending you." you are displaying a great deal of ignorance about human nature and interactions. Just like here at the Asylum, regular participants bond as a community of people with common interests. Many of the ASR regulars are knowledgeable about psychology and human nature, and find the frantic antics of the "Amir-haters" to be amusing and worthy of ridicule.
I have nothing against AudioAsylum.com. I enjoyed my years here and hope that the Asylum's unique collection of participants including many DIY'ers and "subjectivist" audiophiles will continue to serve that audience. Like most regular participants at ASR, I feel that if people want to fool themselves with sighted texts only, and wax eloquently using their unique collection of flowery subjective terms - go for it. However, false claims or the promotion of unverifiable performance characteristics, will lead to becoming a subject of ridicule if you cannot support your claims with hard evidence.
I absolutely enjoyed my years with SET amps, horn speakers and other esoteric audio components that would likely measure quite poorly - but I never claimed that those systems were "accurate" or "transparent." And I still might get another single-ended amp from a Chinese company - Meixing Mingda - that is endorsed by Polish tube guru Lukasz Fikus Lampizator. Don't feel embarrassed if audio gear you like doesn't measure well - just go for what you like and be honest about it. That attitude is a core value at ASR.
Bottom line - if Amir and the participants at ASR criticize products from one of your favorite audio companies, you should, rather then engaging in destructive campaigns of personal attacks, encourage those companies or persons to address the technical issues raised by rigorous and accurate testing and measurements. Yes, there may be debate about some testing methods or results, but you can expect differences to be settled by further testing of communication with other certified experts. That's the nice thing about science - it is self-correcting.
Like some other companies who have done so recently, your favored companies might to be able to improve their reputation, and likely gain new customers. And that is what the ASR'ers really like to see.
My goodness. A 2000 word lecture. Thanks professor.Where you can't defend is engaging in product evaluation via test equipment with an agenda, wearing a white hat as a self crowned consumer advocate, where you have no qualifications what so ever to do so.
You may or may not know that for years Amir tore down and panned gear via web photos with out ever hearing, touching, seeing that equipment. That stakes a staggering amount of arrogance. He was constantly trying to show he was smarter than everybody else.
Couple that with a serious narcissistic streak (as well as pathological liar), and the propensity to revise history, shows why no company with any common sense would have him within 1000 miles of their stuff.
Edits: 10/21/19 10/21/19 10/21/19 10/21/19
I am a retired buy with lots of time to counter b.s. and personal attacks - how it that bad? And it's not a lecture - it's part of a discussion - are their particular points I made that you disagree with?
It should be obvious to anyone with the ability to read and comprehend, and a desire seek truth, that Amir's "agenda" is to expose shoddy design and engineering, and he clearly - and quite often - states that he encourages companies and engineers to do their work to higher standards so everyone can benefit. And he has demonstrated his "qualification" to do such evaluations many times, and has an excellent technical background to support his efforts.
That Amir has negative and destructive agenda is a figment of your imagination, apparently after one of your favorite oxen was gored. You have no evidence to back it up.
Many aspects of industrial design and engineering can indeed be evaluated and criticized from photographs. How can you not comprehend that?
Just out of curiosity, what are your qualifications with regards to psychology, audio hardware engineering and manufacturing methods?
Why get so upset about a guy who likes women wearing lamp shade hats? :)
"2 days ago"
Are you being disingenuous or just not reading correctly? Registration was 2 weeks before this thread. False narratives seem to be an ASR trademark.
OMG - my glasses are quote old, and I misread October 7 as October 17. The horror of it all!
And please, kind sir, explain how that 10 day discrepancy on a 7,200 day-old forum is significant!
But then again, you have provided another opportunity to demonstrate that ASR and it's regular visitors admit and correct their mistakes.
...the way your post read is that I registered here just to join the ASR thread...which clearly is not true.
For the record, I don't believe this was intentional, but needed to be corrected.
You can pretend that his past incompetency has no bearing. Your prerogative.
His agenda, deep rooted bias, and technical blunders, however, cannot be ignored.
Your post reminds me of this Global Warming cartoon...
False equivalency.
The ASR charlatan came to false conclusions and made rank amateur mistakes
in procedure. There is no science there. Just an agenda.
LOL! An dedicated technical expert makes a couple of errors among hundreds of procedures and corrects them when they are discovered and pointed out to him. How is that bad? Isn't that the way science works? Like all good science-minded people, Amir accepts corrections, and continues to make serious efforts to do science properly - unlike the people who pass off lousy signal-to-noise and high distortion as high-fidelity at outrageous prices.
Even Schitt bought a new audio analyzer after being called out for poor engineering by Amir - and they have since improved the performance of their cool and trendy offerings. What, in your opinion - is wrong with striving for low distortion and a high signal to noise ratio?
OTOH, PS Audio has been defensive, and are trying to justify their poor performance with respect to true high-fidelity electronics. But give them credit for publishing some of their lousy specs - hidden somewhere in the advertising copy.
Audio electronics used as fixed (non-variable) upstream tone controls or signal modifiers seems rather silly to me. Doesn't it make more sense to keep the character of recorded music flat and accurate as possible from source all the way to the speakers and then do whatever you want to the signal with DSP? Does it really make sense to randomly adjust the audio signal via sound-altering electronic components and cables.
And don't get me started on listening sessions where people can only hear differences if the know in advance or during the session what they are listening to. Ever hear of psychoacoustics - another branch of science? Are you aware of the proven fallibility of acoustic memory for moderate differences, much less small and subtle differences?
I am aware of the technical "flaws" in some of the gear I've owned over the years, but still thoroughly enjoyed it. In 2003 I owned a 2A3 Italian-made SET that was hand-built by Attillio Caccamo of Tektron. It was fed by a custom 6sn7 transformer-coupled preamp from Australian Mick Maloney, and the speakers back when I had a nice big living room were Klipsch Forte II's. Most of the components probably would have measured poorly, but I did not care.
Like most of the regulars at ASR, I believe that people can - and should - listen to whatever sound system and music they enjoy. But I just don't like "charlatans" who pass off amateur-level design and implementation as SOTA. Seeking truth while acknowledging errors when they do occur is perhaps why ASR is more than twice as popular as AudioAsylum in terms of WEB traffic.
Ok, I can see what is going on here. It is clear you have a passive aggressive attitude towards successful audio companies and their "trendy" offerings. I can see this is exactly the ASR target audience.It is also clear that the vast majority of ASR disciples have no zero listening skills and need a false charlatan prophet to tell them what they are hearing.
Quite telling that no company will send this tone deaf clown any gear, and he has to buy it outright, or beg or borrow.
Edits: 10/19/19
Quote: Quite telling that no company will send this tone deaf clown any gear, and he has to buy it outright, or beg or borrow.
Actually, companies that make well engineered components do indeed send units to Amir for testing. Apparently you don't know much about the website that you are disparaging. Many people drop ship new and ship old components to Amir for testing, willing to delay receiving or using those electronics for a couple of months just because of Amir's stellar reputation for honesty and accuracy.
Amir welcomes challenges, and if proven wrong, will admit it - but significant errors are infrequent - the forum itself is the peer-review platform - that's a good thing - wouldn't you agree?
Have you even noticed that companies whose products test poorly often attack the method but don't deny the data? Or they declare the bad results irrelevant and insist that the lousy engineering, designs and sub-par performance is not important.
Audioasylum ranks #240,000 in the world according to Alexa. WBF has sunk to #400,000. AudioScienceReview is at #104,000 - much more popular than both.
Clearly, there can be no rational discussion with members of a cult.
Amir is a dishonest, incompetent, and pseudo engineer with hate in his heart.
I'm sorry that you are unable to continue and respond to my honest and forthright comments and questions.
Anger and unjustified personal attacks can wear a person down. Perhaps another time - after you've actually become familiar with ASR and its rational, science-based approach to audio.
Nice circle jerk you have going on in that thread at ASR.
One brain dead ASR Zombie even posted about your dear leader:
"He's got fantastic values , has been courageous and unbelievably generous in his life. His story from start to now is inspirational and his true success in family and life is way beyond what most could even imagine."
LOL! I laughed so hard I got a belly ache.
Fascinating to watch angry losers flail about. Male egos are incredibly resistant to rationality and truth when they have been bruised.
Ego? Nice use of psycho babble.
I appreciate all the quotes at ASR.
I am on my way to being famous.
Now go ahead back to your circle jerk.
I think the applicable term is "infamous," not "famous." As in being infamous for opposing openness, honesty, rational thinking, and productive discussion.
Also, most people understand the meaning of the word "ego" and to refer to that as psychobabble, and then close with yet another childish insult is further evidence of irrelevance in the real world.
You want to get into the psychobabble?
Here is distinct proof that ASR not only not rational, but dishonest to the core.
The thread starter already knows, magically, that it won't "measure well" and that is is a scam product. And of course the scum slurping sharks circle the waters.
Then Amir, who Uptone won't even sell a product at FULL PRICE, a stance numerous companies have teken....encourages someone to buy it then return it within 30 days. This is border line fraud.
Then the whole thing spirals into a lynch mob...FOR A PRODUCT THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN, TOUCHED, OR HEARD....
Pre determined narrative...as usual. Despicable.
You talk about science? Let's see some of it from you instead of personal insults and senseless blather.
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