In Reply to: reply posted by Duke on March 2, 2007 at 10:35:32:
Bass varies in every room -- I can only offer theory (and experience for typical rectangular "plasterboard on 2x4" rooms):YOU WROTE:
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that standing waves are the dominant problem in the deep bass region, and that subwoofers need to be located near the main speakers to integrate properly.RG:
Correct summary of bass theory ... but never forget that measurements of the room and listening rule, not theories.The best sub location for the bass frequency response may not be the best location for excellent integration with the main speakers. My first priority is near-perfect integration with the main speakers. That forces sub locations to "close to the main speakers" (two subs) or between the main speakers "one sub".
There are tricks to allow locating one mono sub near either speaker rather than between them (sharply cutting output over 80Hz.).
And if the sub has very little output over 40Hz. it can theoretically be located anywhere as no experiment I've ever read suggests localization is possible with sound under 40Hz.
... although with loud music content under 40Hz. it is possible to "hear" a sub is located behind you, or to your side, solely from the feel of bass pressurization on the side or back of your body.
That may be okay with surround sound but with two channel I don't want to hear the illusion that a bass player is stnding in front of me and that's not helped by feeling pressurization from the lowest notes on my back from a rear subwoofer.I know I'm extra picky about hearing at home the bassline that the bass musician intended. The bass player almost always plugs his bass into the recording console because even a recording studio is too small a room for a good bass frequency response.
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If standing waves are the dominant problem, then changing the subwoofer's location shouldn't make such big difference because the standing wave patterns are a fxed function of room dimensions.
RG
Sub location determines how strongly a standing wave is excited, and listener location determines how well his ears will couple with the standing wave. Subs and listeners located far from walls/corners of rooms have a much different bass frequency response than subs and listeners located near walls/corners.
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.But as we all know, changing the location of a subwoofer has clearly audible and even dramatic effect. The reason it does is the path-length-induced peak and dip pattern that I've described (and which Roy Allison described long before me, but he focused on the reflections off the wall closest to the speaker whereas I'm assuming the subwoofer starts out up against that wall).
RG
Not true.
Subs tend to be located near walls, or no more than a few feet from walls. This is too close to affect 14 feet and longer wavelengths?
Well ... it wouldn't be a good idea to locate two subs so their drivers were 4 feet from the side walls, 4 feet from the front walls, and 8 feet apart. That could cause a deep narrow null.
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I believe one key to good subwoofer integration with the main speakers is generating a low frequency sound field that is similar to that generated by the main speakers at higher frequencies.
RG
Impossible
Bass is omnidirectional.
Sound gets more directional as the frequencies rise.
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.Scattered multiple subs addresses this. Given that the ear is very poor at judging the direction of a low frequency sound source without upper freqency cues (hence the steep crossover), and that the ear is obviously pretty good at hearing large peaks and dips in bass energy, I place the higher priority on getting the soundfield right.
RG
I wish scattered multiple subwoofers smoothed the bass response.
The soundfield is never right if there are any bass peaks +3 to +6dB from standing waves (because +6dB can means a bass note fundamental tone sounds twice as loud as the bass musician intended!) Add in a null or two and you hear a different bassline than the musician intended in our small rooms (compared to listening to headphones or listening to speakers or a live bass musician in a nightclunb or auditorium.) Very large home listening rooms tend to have reasonably accurate basslines unless the ceiling is under 10 feet tall.Listen to s slow sinewave frequency sweep tone (at least 20 seconds from 20 to 100Hz.) and you'll hear whether the bassline is reasonably flat. It usually is not without many bass traps and/or parametric EQ.
The oddest thing about people experimenting with multiple subwoofers is they tend to place all the subwoofers on the floor where they fully excite the very important floor-to-ceiling standing wave (70 Hz. in 8 foot tall rooms, and I'm assuming the sub has full output at 70Hz). There are theoretical advantages with four subwoofers (left floor, left ceiling, right floor, right ceiling) if the ceiling doesn't rattle from the bass (it will) and the wife doesn't send you to the funny farm (she will) and you can afford FOUR subwoofers.
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Duke
Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
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Follow Ups
- I'll put on my thinking cap and offer a long-winded reply to the reply - Richard BassNut Greene 14:57:17 03/02/07 (51)
- Long-winded reply to, ah... your reply to my... um... reply - Duke 17:13:38 03/02/07 (50)
- scattered multiple subwoofer system - Richard BassNut Greene 09:27:01 03/03/07 (49)
- Re: scattered multiple subwoofer system - Duke 11:36:00 03/03/07 (48)
- The Welti paper is not worth the paper it is printed on if good bass at one seat is your goal - Richard BassNut Greene 09:45:03 03/05/07 (24)
- While I don't agree with some of Welti's conclusions... - Duke 10:08:59 03/05/07 (23)
- Welti averages 16 seating positions -- this is worthless for two-channel audio -- many are confused by his priorities - Richard BassNut Greene 11:19:13 03/06/07 (22)
- Re: Welti comments - twelti 15:48:53 03/11/07 (1)
- Duke caused the commotion by quoting your paper at a primarily two-channel audio website - Richard BassNut Greene 14:33:25 03/13/07 (0)
- The acoustics does not change in the bass region. - Duke 11:42:36 03/06/07 (19)
- If you think computer simulations in one virtual room results in conclusions for ALL rooms, you're a lost audiophile! - Richard BassNut Greene 10:07:21 03/07/07 (18)
- Acoustic principles don't change from room to room - only the specific application of those principles changes - Duke 10:32:08 03/07/07 (17)
- Did it ever occur to you that every so-called "expert" you cite has a DIFFERENT sub location recommendation !!!!!!!!!! - Richard BassNut Greene 08:38:46 03/08/07 (16)
- It is the data I am most interested in; I draw my own conclusions. (nt) - Duke 09:22:19 03/08/07 (15)
- It's the sound quality in a real room that I'm interested in -- not computer simulations never tested by real ears! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:52:24 03/08/07 (14)
- So... if I tell you that I've tried both and my way works best, will that convince you? - Duke 11:36:37 03/08/07 (13)
- Adding a third or fourth subwoofer may improve bass at your seat in your room ... or maybe make it worse! - Richard BassNut Greene 08:26:52 03/09/07 (12)
- Adding additional subs almost always results in smoothing. - Duke 09:29:21 03/09/07 (11)
- $10,000 says my one subwoofer + parametric EQ will be smoother than your three or four subwoofers in 9 out of 10 rooms - Richard BassNut Greene 13:40:32 03/09/07 (10)
- Depends on parameters of the contest - Duke 14:13:09 03/09/07 (9)
- Three or four "scattered subwoofers" all located on the floor = sonic disaster - Richard BassNut Greene 09:23:41 03/10/07 (8)
- not true - Duke 13:58:37 03/10/07 (7)
- Re: some comments - twelti 15:54:39 03/11/07 (6)
- Your paper applies to surround sound but many readers assume 4 subs are best for two-channel - Richard BassNut Greene 08:31:20 03/12/07 (2)
- Re: Your paper applies to surround sound but many readers assume 4 subs are best for two-channel - twelti 21:45:37 03/12/07 (1)
- My mind is open on a third or fourth subwoofer for two channel audio. You seem to have only conclusions. - Richard BassNut Greene 08:53:53 03/13/07 (0)
- Re: some comments - Duke 16:22:24 03/11/07 (2)
- Re: some comments - twelti 19:12:15 03/11/07 (1)
- "Heated exchange"??? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:12:33 03/12/07 (0)
- A more accessible source or two - Duke 14:18:30 03/04/07 (21)
- Earl Geddes' advice is for surround sound home theaters -- it does not apply to two-channel stereo - Richard BassNut Greene 09:52:37 03/05/07 (20)
- Not true - the acoustics does not change. - Duke 10:12:56 03/05/07 (19)
- A comparison of two subwoofer alternatives in one room proves nothing and Earl should be the first person to admit that - Richard BassNut Greene 11:38:55 03/06/07 (18)
- A mistake you consistently make - Duke 11:46:25 03/06/07 (17)
- Still clueless Duke (home theater computer simulations don't identify best sub location for ALL 2-channel audio rooms!) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:15:32 03/07/07 (16)
- It takes one to know one ... ;o) - Duke 10:13:33 03/07/07 (15)
- Average the frequency response at multiple seats "smooths" the bass (average enough seats and standing waves disappear!) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:47:21 03/08/07 (14)
- No, that's NOT what I'm saying. Average the output of multiple subs at any ONE seat. - Duke 12:56:05 03/08/07 (13)
- Duke Duke Duke Duke of Earl .... If I charged you for corrections to your posts, I'd be rich! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:24:58 03/09/07 (12)
- If we both charged we'd both be rich - and I could afford an equalizer and you could afford another sub! - Duke 10:19:41 03/09/07 (11)
- "I am suggesting an alternative that will offer a significant improvement throughout the room," = baloney - Richard BassNut Greene 13:58:53 03/09/07 (10)
- baloney - Duke 01:07:54 03/10/07 (9)
- Not only are you wrong about "scattered subwoofers" for two- channel audio, but your Mother also wears Army boots! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:40:57 03/10/07 (8)
- Time for some quotes - Duke 12:22:59 03/10/07 (7)
- Quotes can be BS too. Where are the two-channel audio listening tests with real human audiophiles? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:45:46 03/12/07 (6)
- "Quotes can be BS too" is not an argument - Duke 11:03:20 03/12/07 (5)
- You've got "experts" -- I've got "experts" But none of them agree on sub locations (the right answer is "I don't know!") - Richard BassNut Greene 09:14:57 03/13/07 (4)
- My turn to question - Duke 14:02:08 03/13/07 (3)
- I think I have just enough steam left to get in the last word - Richard BassNut Greene 15:10:18 03/13/07 (2)
- Show's over folks. Move along. - Duke 15:23:28 03/13/07 (1)
- They were all snoring after my third post ! - Richard BassNut Greene 08:49:18 03/14/07 (0)
- Duke - Craiger56 18:25:25 03/03/07 (0)