This Subjectivist vs Objectivist battle is over for me. But before I begin I want to state that I have great respect for other Objectivists here like tomservo or jneutron to name a couple.
I've come to the conclusion that as much as the proclaim differently, the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists who are constantly demanding Subjectivists provide them with proof they can hear differences in components, wires, tubes etc, DO NOT want to really know the truth on this matter. I don't know if that's because their preferences & expectation biases prevent them from hearing these differences. Perhaps their ears aren't trained well enough--you see despite what the LFO claim, Subjectivists do NOT believe we have super-hearing abilities. We believe everyone with training and no hearing disabilities can hear what we hear. It's even possible their components aren't revealing enough, but truth be told I don't know why they cannot hear these differences.
What I do know is that instead of knowing the truth, these small in number Lunatic Fringe Objectivists (RBG, Pat D, AJinFLA, Phil Tower, Soundmind & andy_19191 to name a few) would rather appear correct at all costs, even if they're not, period. For the record I'd like to say I know this group of Lunatic Fringe Objectivists don't represent all or even the majority of the Objectivists here on A.A. The reasons I've come to they don't want to know the truth are many. Over & over & over again we hear this group making many misleading statements such as:
1) Subjectivists believe EVERY component or wire sounds different. The truth is Subjectivists believe components and wires do indeed sound different and the only way of knowing if 2 components or wires will sound different is to listen. But I have never met a Subjectvist that said EVERY component or wire sounds different.
2) Subjectivists believe that wires make as much difference as speakers. But rather than make a valid comparison that represents what Subjectivists really believe, the LFO will compare a Quad with an AR9 as an example of how great the differences in speakers are. However the reality is an ESL and a Dynamic speaker are completely different technologies. There's not a Subjectivist that doesn't understand you'd probably notice the change in the sound of the different technologies a lot quicker than with wires. But all interconnects are basically the same technology, no? So comparing wires is more like making a comparison between 10 $5K dynamic speakers. Even the Objectivist know the differences between 10 different $5K dynamic speakers isn't night & day. What Subjectivists really believe is the changes in wires could be as dramatic, or more dramatic than, the change in 10 different $5K dynamic speakers! Now it's in that light we see that wires can make as much or more difference than your speakers.
I could go on with other misleading examples but I'll end with this one. The Lunatic Fringe Objectivists want you to believe that Subjectivists run and hide from blind tests, but WE DO NOT! Case in point, I offered to PROVIDE PROOF via "blind tests" by blind test I mean that the wires and the person changing the wires would remain unseen by myself and the witnesses for the duration of the test. I maintain "IF" I cannot see the wires, I cannot know which, if any, wires were changed. If the witnesses and myself cannot see the person changing the wires, they cannot somehow telegraph info in any way, shape or form! That would thus be a valid "blind test."
Did the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists jump on the chance to see a Subjectivist take the test they claim we all run and hide from? NO they did not! Instead of running to see this test they all ran from it. Below are some of their many excuses the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists have to this challenge I offered & my accusations of the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists hiding...
andy_19191 claims: They did not hide. They told you they were not interested in wasting their time and money which is quite different. If you want someone to visit you then you will have to provide a good enough reason to overcome this cost.
(Ok so here's one of the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists stating that coming and witnessing a Subjectivist passing a blind-test is a waste of their time and money! Yet the claim they want to know the truth.)
andy_19191 also claims: Most children realise at quite an early age that simply wanting something and sitting down and screaming until they get it does not always work.
(So why are these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists (of which andy_19191 is a member) CONSTANTLY sitting down, screaming out that Subjectivists need to PROVIDE PROOF, yet when a challenge is extended wherein a Subjectivists offers to take a blind test the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists call witnessing this test a waste of time and money?)
andy_19191 claims: What can you offer "Lunatic Fringe Objectivists" to tempt them to come and visit you? Valid data of something interesting to them?. No you do not have scientifically valid data or a desire to obtain it.
(I've offered: 1) previous witnesses whom they reject, 2) to PROVIDE PROOF to them personally, but they consider that a waste of time and money. Yet now andy_19191 states I need to "tempt" them with valid data I already have? So unless I go back and get a high-level science education to enable me to be able to provide them with audibility data you know - the kind these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists can READ rather than experience, there's nothing I can do, to please these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists! Every Subjectivist here knows that any data presented that didn't line-up with the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists preferences and expectation biases would be rejected outright. That's why I specifically offered to provide proof personally to them, but remember that unfortunately is a waste of time and money according to andy_19191!)
Richard BassNut Greene in an amazingly wise post claims: "No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed."
(Yet after posting those very words RBG dismisses 1) everything I say, 2) the witnesses I provide and 3) the offer to provide the proof personally the scientific data he states he's never seen. How does RBG respond? He refuses to come and claims my offers of hospitality are actually DEMANDS being made apon him. How can it be a DEMAND, when a) I offer and b) He states it's proof he wants?)
Richard BassNut Greene claims: All experiment data must be published, including the temperature and humidity in the listening room measured at five-minute intervals, and experiment results must also please Phil Tower.
(I hope he's joking a tad. But now I must be published & Plus Phil Tower must approve (isn't that an appeal to authority?) What happened to RBG's words of: No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed?)
Richard BassNut Greene claims: "Another great benefit to audio is to claim that all components sound different when not one out of hundreds of brave audiophiles who have tested this belief over three decades was able to come close to validating the belief."
(Actually RBG the real great benefit to audio is for you Lunatic Fringe Objectivists to claim that components don't sound different, and then dismiss an offer from a Subjectivist to PROVIDE YOU PERSONALLY the PROOF you claim you want, only to have you refuse to come to the test, because you interpet the offer of hospitality as a DEMAND!)
Richard BassNut Greene claims: Let the audio fantasies continue -- attack all objective experiements when their results don't support pre-existing beliefs. It's all about the ego-building fantasy: "I know what I hear and I don't have to prove it to anyone else."
(RBG how you mislead everyone. The ONLY one with an ego-building fantasies are those you of Lunatic Fringe Objectivists like yourself who state: No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed. Yet you outright reject my personal tests, the witnesses of these tests and the offer to see these tests performed for you in person! It would appear it's you Lunatic Fringe Objectivists who attack all experiements when their results don't support your pre-existing beliefs, not us Subjectivists.)
Richard BassNut Greene claims: My posts claim that blind test results can not identify the existence of even one real golden ear. I do not claim all components sound the same. It is the golden ear wackos who claim all components sound different ... but have no proof beyond "I know what I hear".
(RBG you claim, 1) No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed & 2) blind test results can not identify the existence of even one real golden ear. Yet you REFUSE to accept my challenge that I will detect via blind tests, that wires sound different. It's real easy for you to make these "supposed" facts when 1) You won't test my hearing abilities BEFORE rejecting them and 2) I offer to allow blind tests to identify & provide the existance of someone (me) who can detect differences in wires. You make so many different claims yet don't even follow your own words, i.e. NO MATTER HOW FOOLISH THE CLAIMS SEEM AT FIRST, THEY NEEDTO BE TESTED BEFORE BEING DISMISSED. Instead in my case you jump straight to dismissing, my tests, my claimed results, my witnesses of these tests and finally my offer to allow you to personally witness me taking said tests.
AJinFLA states in response to my offer of proving I detect differences in wires etc: "So no, I won't be coming to your house of worship anytime soon. Sorry, I'm agnostic remember? Thanks for the offer though. I don't get to hear tube distortion and low rez uncontrolled directivity speaker box sound very often anymore. Artifical flavoring ain't for me. Just not my bag."
(Apparently in this particular Lunatic Fringe Objectivist's mind he has to like the sound of the system, in order for a valid blind test to be performed!)
AJinFLA claims: You don't own an ABX or a clue about science or scientific proof, nor will you ever. There is simply no need to go further.
(So AJinFLA ONLY accept results via an ABX. He will NOT accept the valid data obtained via other blind testing?)
AJinFlA stated in response to my offer of proving I detect differences in wires etc: "...why (do) I need to be there to watch you imagine hearing differences, which I was going to suggest - could easily have been done with a web camera - and save me the drive."
(So this particular Lunatic Fringe Objectivists won't accept my tests, my claimed results, my witnesses of these tests or even my offer to allow him to personally witness me taking said tests ( AJinFLA lives pretty close to me) Yet he'll accept the results via a webcam? We all know AJinFLA & the rest of these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists would claim someone outside the view of the webcam (if I had one) was providing me clues!)
Notice these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists claim, it Subjectivists who refuse to PROVIDE PROOF, yet when I offer to do that very thing via blind tests, they come up with a myriad of excuses ranging from:
andy_19191 claiming unless I tempt the Lunatic Fringe Objectivist's with valid data, which would require my going back and getting a high-level science education and then providing them audibility data, my blind tests are a waste of time and money!
Richard BassNut Greene who claims: "No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed. Yet he refuses to accept my tests, my results, my witnesses of these tests and finally my offer to allow RBG to & personally witness me taking said tests, rather he dismisses them outright and claims I am DEMANDING he come to FLA.
Lastly there is the most Looney of all the when it comes to making excuses, I present...
AJinFLA. He'll only accept blind tests if an ABX comparator is used! In his mind no other blind test is valid and then he says why (do) I need to be there to watch you imagine hearing differences, which I was going to suggest - could easily have been done with a web camera - and save me the drive? So he won't accept a blind test without an ABX as being scientific, but he'll participate via webcam and accept those results as scientific? Or to even offer the excuse that because he doesn't like tubed equipment, we cannot perform a vaild test using tubed components is really assinine!
As I've stated many times before these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists DO NOT really want to know the truth. They don't really care "IF" Subjectivists can or cannot detected differences in components & wires. All they want is to appear correct and espouse their audio religon, even when they're incorrect. Otherwise why would they need to be tempted (like andy_19191 says) into wanting to learn the truth? The Lunatic Fringe Objectivists misleadingly claim Subjectivists won't take blind tests, yet when I offer to do so eveyone can plainly see it's these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists who want no part of it, not this Subjectivist.
I now, nothing will ever please them, the two parts can NEVER meet. These Lunatic Fringe Objectivists believe wires sound the same they want to use just any wires. But even worse because they don't believe components sound different unless they are broken or faulty, so they see my objection to using an ABX comparator as an excuse. Wherein as I believe wires make a differences I want at least decent quality wires used and because I know components sound different, I only want the wires changed NOT the insertion of an ABX comparator into the system.
As far as I'm concerned they don't want the truth otherwise they'd accept a blind test wherein the wires and the person changing the wires would remain unseen by myself and the witnesses for the duration of the test. To me that's a vaild blind test. So concerning the Subjectivists vs Objectivists debate, for me the battle is over! I cannot debate someone who doesn't want to know the truth...
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Topic - Subjectivists vs Objectivists, For Me The Battle Is Over! - thetubeguy1954 13:45:06 10/23/06 (112)
- Re: Subjectivists vs Objectivists, For Me The Battle Is Over! - twitch54 18:11:38 10/25/06 (0)
- It shouldn't be a battle, a debate sure. - Robert Hamel 09:46:03 10/24/06 (60)
- Ye gods! Such a lot of wasted time and effort... - feet's too big 04:15:29 10/25/06 (3)
- "staggering personal arrogance ..." - robert young 14:41:50 10/25/06 (0)
- Ah, but there are souls to be saved. - markrohr 13:50:06 10/25/06 (1)
- I see... - feet's too big 14:25:30 10/25/06 (0)
- Re: It shouldn't be a battle, a debate sure. - thetubeguy1954 10:39:13 10/24/06 (55)
- Re: It shouldn't be a battle, a debate sure. - Robert Hamel 12:35:37 10/24/06 (1)
- Re: It shouldn't be a battle, a debate sure. - thetubeguy1954 12:52:50 10/24/06 (0)
- Phil Tower Redux - Soundmind 12:01:03 10/24/06 (52)
- Re: Phil Tower Redux - Phil Tower 18:19:24 10/27/06 (0)
- Unsoundmind, My Response - thetubeguy1954 13:08:07 10/24/06 (39)
- Re: Unsoundmind, My Response - john curl 20:15:33 10/24/06 (29)
- Quite. But take heart, it only betrays a deep insecurity within himself. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:50:32 10/25/06 (0)
- Re: Unsoundmind, My Response - Soundmind 04:36:16 10/25/06 (27)
- Re: Unsoundmind, My Response - john curl 06:57:49 10/25/06 (26)
- Every time you open your mouth, you just stick both of your feet in it deeper and deeper - Soundmind 07:08:26 10/25/06 (25)
- Re: Every time you open your mouth, you just stick both of your feet in it deeper and deeper - john curl 08:15:08 10/25/06 (24)
- You just don't get it. The time for the technical discussion of this topic ended three and a half weeks ago - Soundmind 08:26:57 10/25/06 (23)
- Re: You just don't get it. The time for the technical discussion of this topic ended three and a half weeks ago - john curl 11:49:57 10/25/06 (22)
- You can't change history that easily, silly. - jneutron 09:50:59 10/26/06 (0)
- John, John - E-Stat 08:49:08 10/26/06 (16)
- Re: John, John - john curl 10:01:53 10/26/06 (0)
- "We should rejoice in this continuing source of levity." There ya go! nt - clarkjohnsen 09:00:42 10/26/06 (14)
- I know I can, just by re-reading John Curl's "serious discussion" with May Belt about cables - Soundmind 14:25:54 10/26/06 (13)
- No surprise here - E-Stat 05:43:43 10/27/06 (10)
- You would be best off..... - Soundmind 06:11:01 10/27/06 (9)
- Why certainly - E-Stat 06:31:04 10/27/06 (8)
- Re: Why certainly - Soundmind 06:48:35 10/27/06 (7)
- R-E-A-D---M-O-R-E---S-L-O-W-L-Y - E-Stat 06:59:23 10/27/06 (6)
- T-H-I-N-K---M-O-R-E---C-L-E-A-R-L-Y - Soundmind 07:12:42 10/27/06 (5)
- Still missing the point - E-Stat 07:52:56 10/27/06 (4)
- You're wrong as usual - Soundmind 08:36:01 10/27/06 (3)
- Exactly - E-Stat 09:01:24 10/27/06 (2)
- Re: Exactly - Soundmind 09:12:57 10/27/06 (1)
- Gotcha. Have no idea as to the meaning of "qualitative" (nt) - E-Stat 09:24:23 10/27/06 (0)
- Re: I know I can, just by re-reading John Curl's "serious discussion" with May Belt about cables - john curl 21:35:32 10/26/06 (1)
- Re: I know I can, just by re-reading John Curl's "serious discussion" with May Belt about cables - Soundmind 05:22:06 10/27/06 (0)
- Normally I'd ignore your obsessive focus on this topic but I have a question for you - Soundmind 12:36:06 10/25/06 (3)
- Re: Normally I'd ignore your obsessive focus on this topic but I have a question for you - john curl 14:35:11 10/25/06 (2)
- Re: Normally I'd ignore your obsessive focus on this topic but I have a question for you - Soundmind 07:26:27 10/26/06 (0)
- Re: Normally I'd ignore your obsessive focus on this topic but I have a question for you - john curl 15:46:13 10/25/06 (0)
- Re: Unsoundmind, My Response - Soundmind 13:27:56 10/24/06 (8)
- EVERYONE Should Read This & Unsoundminds Previous Posts. - thetubeguy1954 13:53:39 10/24/06 (7)
- Been there, didn't do that - Soundmind 14:12:26 10/24/06 (6)
- Re: Been there, didn't do that - Pat D 12:28:40 10/25/06 (5)
- Re: Been there, didn't do that - Soundmind 12:56:02 10/25/06 (4)
- "I do admit I did a lot of fighting with a lot of people..." - robert young 14:11:56 10/25/06 (3)
- I don't have a vendetta. That has nothing to do with not putting up with bullshit from morons - Soundmind 14:19:16 10/25/06 (2)
- Did you read the part about Tubeguy's "mobility?" - robert young 12:41:02 10/24/06 (10)
- Lack of mobility only means lack of a life if you want it that way - Soundmind 13:11:59 10/24/06 (9)
- Bully for you, Soundmind. - robert young 13:57:53 10/24/06 (8)
- Re: Bully for you, Soundmind. - thetubeguy1954 14:24:34 10/24/06 (2)
- At the end of the day... - robert young 14:41:13 10/24/06 (0)
- Re: Bully for you, Soundmind. - Soundmind 14:34:12 10/24/06 (0)
- Re: Bully for you, Soundmind. - Soundmind 14:19:30 10/24/06 (4)
- Tubular sez::::::: "Lunatic Fringe Objectivists (RBG, Pat D, AJinFLA, Phil Tower, Soundmind & andy19191 to name a few) " - Richard BassNut Greene 08:07:09 10/24/06 (6)
- Unfortunately I didn't make Nixon's enemies list. This isn't much but it's at least slight consolation nt - Soundmind 08:54:20 10/24/06 (5)
- We should all apologize to TubeGuy because I think we hurt his feelings - Richard BassNut Greene 09:23:06 10/24/06 (4)
- No Apologizes Needed & Thanks For The Kind Words. - thetubeguy1954 10:16:15 10/24/06 (3)
- This is getting really disgusting. I'm putting my boots on, before you know it we'll be waist deep in it..... nt - Soundmind 12:03:56 10/24/06 (2)
- people who do objective experiments find they can't hear as well as they previously assumed - Richard BassNut Greene 07:52:53 10/24/06 (6)
- The Nut loves his 'parlor tricks'.- "they're proof"...LOL!..(nt) - mkuller 10:58:40 10/24/06 (1)
- Taunt All You Want - thetubeguy1954 12:51:31 10/24/06 (0)
- Re: people who do objective experiments find they can't hear as well as they previously assumed - thetubeguy1954 08:00:04 10/24/06 (3)
- You "walk away" from a debate on wires = you lose the debate - Richard BassNut Greene 08:25:47 10/24/06 (2)
- Re: You "walk away" from a debate on wires = you lose the debate - kerr 08:48:33 10/24/06 (1)
- What does that mean, don't go away mad, just go away? There's plenty more to argue with where he came from - Soundmind 08:52:39 10/24/06 (0)
- Well, you tried! - kerr 06:43:15 10/24/06 (16)
- Yes, I Tried - thetubeguy1954 07:12:20 10/24/06 (15)
- You've been trying for the longest time. Some of us hope you've finally given up... - Soundmind 07:46:48 10/24/06 (14)
- Re: You've been trying for the longest time. Some of us hope you've finally given up... - thetubeguy1954 07:55:32 10/24/06 (13)
- Re: You've been trying for the longest time. Some of us hope you've finally given up... - Soundmind 08:39:05 10/24/06 (12)
- "Real" audiophiles use speaker magnets on their refrigerators - Richard BassNut Greene 09:04:52 10/24/06 (1)
- Re: "Real" audiophiles use speaker magnets on their refrigerators - Soundmind 12:12:47 10/24/06 (0)
- Re: You've been trying for the longest time. Some of us hope you've finally given up... - thetubeguy1954 08:45:24 10/24/06 (9)
- You know what your problem is tube boob, you have no sense of humor, no none at all nt - Soundmind 08:55:45 10/24/06 (8)
- Not True - thetubeguy1954 10:46:50 10/24/06 (7)
- It seems to me you've done plenty of your own share of mud slinging here too - Soundmind 12:09:44 10/24/06 (6)
- Unsoundmind Would Rather Argue Than Build A Bridge So He Continues His Mud Slinging! - thetubeguy1954 13:12:11 10/24/06 (5)
- And here I thought only your physical mobility was restricted - Soundmind 13:15:25 10/24/06 (4)
- My New & Improved ONLY Unsoundmind Response - thetubeguy1954 14:00:47 10/24/06 (3)
- My goal in life . . . - markrohr 03:42:43 10/24/06 (0)
- Have a nice life. (nt) - Pat D 18:59:35 10/23/06 (1)
- You As Well Pat (nt) - thetubeguy1954 08:01:05 10/24/06 (0)
- Yeah, until your next ranting post in about 5 minutes or so - AJinFLA 14:31:08 10/23/06 (10)
- Believe What You Will -- That's Ok With Me! - thetubeguy1954 08:29:59 10/24/06 (0)
- Truly below the belt and completely unnecessary. - robert young 19:39:29 10/23/06 (8)
- Do you notice how he's *still* posting? - AJinFLA 14:57:22 10/24/06 (1)
- I guess I'll have a go at responding to you. - robert young 15:39:40 10/24/06 (0)
- "The arrogance and rudeness demonstrated by the holders of the audio 'truth'." The really funny part is... - clarkjohnsen 09:19:24 10/24/06 (5)
- Yes Clark Kent - AJinFLA 15:10:38 10/24/06 (0)
- I think both sides are to blame, even though... - robert young 14:22:56 10/24/06 (1)
- "... to be lectured to by a prick." Makes my day! And I can tell the story later. - clarkjohnsen 09:38:45 10/25/06 (0)
- So that's your real problem Clark, and here I thought you were just deaf nt - Soundmind 13:39:13 10/24/06 (0)
- "Regular guys" = people who agree 100% with you? (nt) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:27:49 10/24/06 (0)
- Thank God! Now be silent, I pray. - clifff 13:51:59 10/23/06 (4)
- Accepted Clifff - thetubeguy1954 14:20:59 10/23/06 (3)
- Forget all this stuff and go and enjoy your system and music! - clifff 15:26:38 10/23/06 (1)
- Re: Forget all this stuff and go and enjoy your system and music! - thetubeguy1954 09:46:45 10/24/06 (0)
- Ooops - AJinFLA 14:33:13 10/23/06 (0)
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