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Has anyone out there had the experience of totally missing the bass that is supposed to be so prodigous in the Mani 2s? To me they sound shouty, boxy, and bass shy. OK, I don't drive them with huper high end electronics, but the YBA, Haefler, and PS power amps I do own should be good enough to get an honest representation of this speaker. Is the whole bass thing the emporer's new clothes? Does one need to spend another 5000 in amplification to get them to sound any good? Is there a scam out there where people remove the inner woofer?
What the heck?
Follow Ups:
I was driving them with a Classe DR25. I believe it had 275 watts and ran in class A for the first 50 watts. I had to move them 4' from the front wall because the bass was so strong. After moving into a smaller space, about 15'x12', the bass was overwhelming. My guess is, the amps you're driving them with, do not have enough current to drive them successfully, or you have them wired out of phase.
You must have a very rigid stand, filled with sand or buck shot. I was using a Target stand that sold for around $400, anything less and the bass will suffer.
Speakers come at the end of the audio chain, and accordingly, are at the mercy of outside factors. Such as:- Room size
- Wall material
- Stand quality and height
- Flooring material
- Speaker positioning
- Quality of upstream components and cablingAnd make sure you have the polarity correct. If you have the speaker cables out of phase, you will have weird effects in the imaging and bass.
-Lummy The Seahorse
To even get as low as 50 hz i think the retuning of the cabinet would drive the efficiency a lower than 85 dB. More like 82-83 dB. I have not seen the electrical load and phase curves, but my guess is RGA is correct: it would require a high current amp, even if it is a benign but inefficient amp.
"even if it is a benign but inefficient amp. "what is a benign and inefficent amplifier???
The manufacturer quotes -3dB @29Hz and a 4ohm nominal impedance, i.e. the speaker will require a stout amplifier, i.e. one that is very comfortable with low impedances and severe phase angles. 'high current' is a meaningless marketing term, Watts is Watts is Watts, any increase in current is directly reflected in the power ratings.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Benign = Fairly flat electrical load curve plus no reactance. BUT low efficiency = low efficiency: not sensitive.
I didn't read _every_ post, just most.It's a small speaker. The powered Definitive Tech monitors - about the same size - would go lower. Despite the claims from the AN cult, I can't think of similarly sized speakers right at the moment that go lower than the Manis. I haven't heard the Magicos...do they?
- This signature is two channel only -
Isobaric loading does not make drivers actually go louder or lower, it just basically makes the enclosure size smaller for a given alignment/resonant tuning.
"Isobaric loading does not make drivers actually go louder or lower, it just basically makes the enclosure size smaller for a given alignment/resonant tuning."With the end result being deeper bass response in a smaller enclosure albiet with less efficiency.
An Isobarik loading configuration also has the benefit of cancelling the even order harmonic distortion of the drivers if they are configured in opposite placements of each other...IE back to back.
I have never heard an Isobarik speaker I didn't like. Same with TL loading of bass drivers. The bass just seems more flat and extended without the problems that most AS or ported loading disciplines display.
JMHO of course,
~kenster
So...if it's isobaric then - all other things being equal - the monitor speaker will be able to go lower.I'm not sure what your post added.
Did you care to mention a passive speaker of similar size to the Manis that you think goes lower?
- This signature is two channel only -
Well as a member of the AN cult let it be said that they are much larger speakers using a bigger woofer and corner loading -- but the Mani-2 is completely outclassed. This from me (I've heard both and incidentally with 7b monoblocks mentioned below on the Mani) and the AN's merely on those supposed bass shy SET amps.And like I say the actual fr number is less important than the sensation of the bass one hears in the room. plenty of speakers claim and may in fact hit 40hz for example -- and then there are those that actually sound like they have "good" bass. The Mani-2 is one where the numbers are more impressive than the sound in the bass at level region and this poster has told us his experience which I and many others feel -- despite using beastly powerful amplifiers.
Let's face it: you don't really like monitor type speakers, which makes sense since you are a bass freak. So your advice really amounts to suggesting that Oli consider larger speakers--which several of us have already suggested."but the Mani-2 is completely outclassed."
Not every one thinks so. Now, we do have good measurements of one AN speaker easily available. The $12,000 Audio Note E AN-E Lexus Signatures have a big peak in the lower midrange and a mild depression between 1 and 3 kHz with some roughness, and a peak at 10 kHz (high enough not to matter much), along with mediocre horizontal dispersion. But, it evidently does most of what *you* want it to do.
Bass response in a room is highly dependent on the room acoustics, speaker placement, and listener placement. I have heard the Totem Mani-2 Signatures in a normal listening room and the bass response was excellent. And they sounded great.
____________________________________________________
"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
Firslty the speaker was not measured for its intended position which will seriously effect the end result. You should know that but so should Stereophile's editor - the last technical editor they had does know which is why his results were significantly different.I am not a bass freak but I do like good sounding bass with cohesiveness - and I like it to be textured and dynamic like the rest of the sound.
I know several Totem owners who went to AN and none the other way -- but then unlike you I have done comparisons and actually listened to the speakers rather than guess what it "might" be like when I read the graph of speakers not set-up properly.
I have heard the Mani-2 several times set-up by people who know what they're doing. Including an ex-owner of them. They are good loudspeakers - but I would gladly run a preference based blind session againt the Mani-2 any day.
Corner placement will affect the deep bass response of the $12,000 AN-E Lexus Signature, but the lower end below about 400 Hz will still be elevated, and there still be a mild depression between 1 and 3 kHz with some roughness, and a peak at 10 kHz (high enough not to matter much), along with mediocre horizontal dispersion. As Art Dudley, who also liked the speaker, said, "But people who are sensitive to departures from perfectly flat frequency response should consider themselves forewarned."
____________________________________________________
"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
Well Yeah and the AN E is not perfect - you makes your trades. If for example you want to chuck out all sense of "live" sound for dynamic ineptness like many standmounts and any sense of powerful dynamic bass then yes you can seek perfectly flat frequency response - but none of the Harman Toole Totem Paradigm are perfectly flat. Like anything - to get the more marketable graphs something else gets traded. And what many of these others trade is so vast that it isn't worth it.The only way to really determine if one can tell what is doing a good job is by listening to the speakers in question in the same room. Frequency response is one aspect. Horizontal dispersion is funny but then having heard them - you can sit anywhere you wish and the sound does not fall apart like say the free standing designs of a B&W or Paradigm.
But of course this simply goes nowhere because a person who buys into the Paradigm Studio 20 kind of thing and has not directly compared the AN's is going to look for the graphs to prove whatever point he is trying to prove. Not really sure since there is no evidence of "preference of audible superiority" in the graphs - even Stereophile's editor doing the measurements states that (and he has read the Harman marketing blather).
And even if we ran a double blind level matched preference based test with 100 of the world's most accomplished classically trained musicians and even if 90 of them chose the AN or 90 of them chose the Totem that would still leave the remaining 10 who chose the other. And sure if we go by probable likely-hoods (which is a joke) then we might assume by reading such tests that we would be in the 90 camp -- but then again we may not be and then it's science by probablity which isn't very useful).
The question for me is simple - one sounds like realistic live music and one sounds a lot more like some woofers in a box, boxy sounding, thin, and it is not "perfectly flat" either, and has an upper treble issue that is audible in a bad way. How many dealers carry Audio Note and Totem? Soundhounds - how does each sell when compared to eachother? And Soundhounds carries Sim Audio which supposedly is the right amp choice going by this thread. Yeah But you Patd may still choose the Totem -- in fact you have read the graph first so your mind is made up before you walk in. And looking at the list of the speakers you have heard and think are the best I think I get it.
I have met some people in my life that if their friend tells them that Joe is a a big jerk that they will take their friend's word for it and Joe will be a jerk in their eyes too. And their friend probably provided "evidence" of why Joe is a jerk to boot - only maybe it was their friend all along that had the problem and the the "evidence" wasn't infallible.The reason I suggest the AN E or J is because when the speaker is placed in the corner the biggest differences are in the midrange not the bass. The Bass is deepened yes of course but supposedly no affects will occur in the lower midrange up -- but the midrange is affected for the better. And of course bass is an issue for the original poster - will the AN E have enough SLAM maybe not so he would need a much larger loudspeaker - but if we're talking standmounts the J or E has more.
The J in fact I would be quite comfortable running up against the Wilson Sophia or N802 in terms of bass depth. The other two will play louder though but then they cost 4 times as much and have more problems.
when you try to get more bass out of small enclosures.Let that be a sonic penalty or efficiency.
Can't have a cake and eat it, too sadly.Even then, they are still two-way standmounts ( even they are isobarik ). Anyone looking for a real impact of larger speakers in a decent size room will be disappointed.
Well, the Totem Mani-2 is a very nice speaker, one of the nicest I've heard, it has a very flat frequency response down to 30 Hz, not to mention excellent horizontal dispersion. You do pay for the bass response in a small speaker, not only in price, but in efficiency. And, of course, you cannot reasonably expect super high output in the bass with smallish woofers.A friend of mine drives his Mani-2 Signatures with a pair of Bryston 7B monoblock amplifiers, but my dealer thinks a 4B would be fine and has even seen them work well enough with a 3B.
It must be said that the bass response of a speaker in a room is highly dependent on placement.
Of course, if you expect really high volumes of bass, I suggest you look at larger speakers.
____________________________________________________
"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
nice bass for what it is....try a large speaker
I just tried a pair at home with a couple of different amps, ranging in price from $1k to $6k. I thought the bass performance was outstanding. They certainly didn't emphasize the bass at all, but it was there when needed.Specifically, with compressed pop and rock recordings, bass was passable but not emphatic or emphasized (which is really how it should be). However, play a good clean recording like some Ray Brown and the bass was awesome, tuneful and forceful and amazingly extended. I would describe the Mani-2 as an honest speaker, but not painfully so.
OliTotem speakers love high current amps.
On a very large showroom floor too.
I have heard them on Arcam and Simm amps.
Simms are very high current and
they provide excellant bass.
The Arcam have high current but
even then you need the higher powered
models to really bring out the bass.
None of those you mentioned are high current amps.
So they are NOT good enoufh for the Mani 2s.
Sorry for the bad news.DanL
Do you really think he Mani 2 has deep bass at high levels even with high powered amps -- I have heard the Mani 2 with big 350watt SS into 4 ohms from the likes of Bryston and Adcom. I think the YBA and Arcam gear are able to run the Mani-2 just fine (well not their small integrateds like the Integra and alpha amp lines).The first though I had listening to the Totem Mani-2 was nice speakers -- where do I buy the matching sub.
Yes Mani 2s have deep strong bass.
Maybe they weren't broken in yet or
they were not driven by the right amps.
I said high current not high powered amps.
BIG difference because Bryston and Adcom
are NOT high current amps, neither is YBA.
Upper Arcam amps can do it - higher the better.
Simm is what the Totem owners use in their systems.
I have heard them with Simm and awesome bass.
I am sure Krell amps could drive them too.
The "big 350watt SS into 4 ohms" specification
means absolutely NOTHING these days but stable
into .5 ohm continuous load would mean something.
That is high current not "big 350watt SS into 4 ohms".
As far as tubes - go with 845/211/805 SE or PP.
These will power anything if driven decently.DanL
I'm pretty sure the Totem here does not go below 3ohms - that is no problem for Bryston or Adcom. The Totem's had more than a year on them.Let me clear - they have deep bass for a standmount of this size - but in overall terms - well it's no surprise that Totem makes bigger speakers and subs.
by the way anything that Arcam can run - a Bryston can run.
RGAThere are several speakers that have
"normal" impedance curves that perform
better with high current amplifiers.
The notorious ones are Dynaudio and Maggies.
I am sure there are others but
those are the ones I am familiar with.
Like there are speakers that thrive on
higher on output impedance amplifiers.
Matching amplifier to speakers is normal.
Mani 2s use modified Dynaudio bass drivers so
they NEED high current amplifiers to drive them.
Read ANY review of Dynaudio speakers
and they say the same thing.
Nothing new here.> > anything that Arcam can run - a Bryston can run
Listen to Maggies or Logans with
Arcam and Bryston amplifiers and
you will realize that's incorrect.
Don't get me wrong I like Bryston
with the right speakers though.DanL
Actually the dealer selling ML says that Bryston works better than Arcam.I'm sorry but every time someone complains about an amplifier mismatch like this I roll my eyes. It is 100% Totem's responsibility that when THEY choose a dealer that they MAKE SURE the dealer is connecting an appropriate amplifier. According to you there are only a handful of amps that will drive their speakers properly so IMO that is terrible speaker design or a speaker maker making excuses for their sound.
They need to either start building CD players, turntables and amplifiers and sell complete systems (which they should be doing) or at the very least compile a list of gear that they believe is BEST for their speakers and post it on their website.
I mean if Totem doesn't care about what gets mated it with them in the showroom - why on earth should any consumer care about Totem speakers? But then they are now all sold at big box outlets and not in high end dealers so I guess they said it all.
RGA#1 I have heard Bryston and Arcam on Maggies.
I think Bryston does indeed sound better but
Arcam has much better drive for more extended bass.
ML are even harder on amps than Maggies so ...#2 It is your money so you are responsible
for an educated/proper choice in amplification.
If you shirk your responsibility you get burnt.#3 Totem responsibility is honest dealership PERIOD
Dealers are trying to sell product PERIOD
We are responsible to be sceptical at dealerships.
Research and listening are our responsibility.#4 Many amps can make good sound from the Mani 2s
but we were discussing what it needs for deep bass.#5 Totem is NOT sold in big box stores AFAIK.
DanL
1. Bryston can sound lean I'll give you that. They are about Brute force not subtlety.2. #2 and #3 It is your money so you are responsible
for an educated/proper choice in amplification.
If you shirk your responsibility you get burnt.Sorry don't agree. Companies like to pawn the responsibility off so that if you e-mail them to wonder why their product sounds poor they can say or the dealer can say - "gee it's the amp maker's fault." Dealers may deliberately mix and match garbage to the speakers so that buyers will be in an endless upgrade mode -- but I prefer to deal with companies who at least try to ensure that their speakers are matched with gear they think is acceptable.
If Totem does not care then why should I care about Totem? Simple as that PERIOD.
i'm curious to see it.
KumaThe impedance curve is in the UHF magazine
http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue76/UHF76.pdf
Page 31 has the graph. Link Below
Impedance curves don't tell the whole story.
There seems to be an undefined (as of now)
factor(s) involved in driving real speakers.
I have designed/built many speakers with
Dynaudio and other drivers and realize this.
My favorite tweeter is the D260 - I have 4.
My brother prefers Morel tweeters and mids
and Dynaudio as the woofers in his bedroom.
He has Maggie 2.7s in the living room.
Maggies have a fairly flat impedance curve but
many have found using the Zero autotransformer
does wonders for the bass by increasing the
impedance seen by the amplifier.
This is the same factor I am proposing.
Amps Current Capabilty vs Speaker Impedance Load
Higher current capability of the amp and
higher impedance of speaker are two ways
of accomplishing the same results.
Some speakers are more susceptable to this variable
while others seem to care less about it.DanL
Having tried the speakers, I was just curious.I agree that the impedance plot alone does not determine how successful speaker/amp pairing would be. There are lot more factor involved.
http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/462/index7.htmlIn keeping with this thread's discussion I would post John Atkinson's Note as well, from the same page:
"In my original review, I concluded that while Totem's Mani-2 appears to cost a lot for a conventional-looking if well-finished minimonitor, its combination of clean treble, transparent midrange, natural dynamics, and powerful, extended bass allowed the music to communicate in a most effective manner. Although the current sample is a little more forward-balanced in the upper midrange, the Mani-2 is still enthusiastically recommended, particularly if you have a smallish room, value bass extension, and are prepared to pay for it. A solid Class B loudspeaker in this magazine's "Recommended Components."
NO wonder! :0Thanks Nathan!
The Mani 2 has good bass for a stand mount but don't expect it not to seriously get compressed at level. This is maybe the best I have heard from Totem for sound quality but in the end I went with a stand mount that I felt did everything better (much better in the bass), except looks. Totem has a premium value placed on looks and therefore marketing and that is why generally I find something better or at least as good for half the price...IF and only if you can live without the sexy cabinets and small size.Lots of stand mounts claim 40hz which is what my floor standers claim - You won't mistake which ones "feel" like they are producing 40hz.
OK. I'm fine with whatever looks. What kicks mani's butt in a stand mount. No Rock. Only classical and Miles, Coltrane, Ella, etc. Totally acoustic ( I'm a cellist, already).
Thanks,
rt
For a start and to be blunt my speakers - Audio Note J's or E's. Both go deeper but IMO it is not the depth that is really that important but avoiding the one note bass line that so many speakers have. Acoustic piano and acoustic instruments in general have layers and IMO the AN J and E are vastly better in this regard than the Mani-2. The AN's are far more dynamic being of a high efficient design perhaps this is why they sound faster more open and far less boxy sounding.In my town in Nanaimo I met a guy who trade his lived with for several years Mani-2's for AN E's and he said it took him one track to make the decision and a few hours to be sure he wasn't wrong. Which was my experience against some B&W N801s and Paradigms and several others.
It's not necessarily how deep the bass is but how the bass sounds when it's there - transients and decay. When I listen to a cello, or piano or guitar I want to hear the sound of the instrument's box resonating as well as the transient of the next note all at the same time. And frankly I get the sense that large chunks of music are being truncated and hacked off with a lot of speakers/SS gear.
I can;t say that I like standmount speakers in general because a lack of bass and nasality seem to be rule the sound too much. AN standmounts J and E are very large really and are somewhat of a floorstander production from a two way with the advantages of both. They are what I think the best of a lot of worlds of design but that is why I bought them and that is my bias.
The AN E will produce very deep bass, is high sensitive (which allows a much wider array of choices and upgrades in amplifiers), can play loud but not to ridiculous levels of some beastie floorstanders, can be shoved in the corners where they like it best, and are easily trasported and room friendly. To me there is a practical element here as well. They work in small medium and medium large rooms well. They play everything well and are all day listenable and non-fatiguing.
But the most fun for me is when I have friends over and play their blaring rock Guns and Roses stuff to room shaking with bass in the chest thumping levels and they look at the big beast of an amp and ask about the watts and I tell them it's a whole 10 watts I love that look of disbelief when they go home to their slim line multiple stacked 6 inch plastic woofers and their big 150 watt amps and wonder why my system needs no sub and their's does and their's sound all muddy and dead.
And the funny thing is my speakers cost me a fair chunk less than the Mani-2 to boot. And that to me is the truly sad bit. My dealer carried both and I cannot see anyone listening to the two in the same room walking out with Mani-2s and paying more money. The speaker is physically smaller and sexier but because they have that silly demand of needing to be out into the room 3 feet and 3 feet from the walls - the big fat AN's take up far less room by being shoved back into the corners needing less room space. To me it was a no-brainer. All the people running around trying to get huge power just to drive a little speaker - and of course no matter what power amp you own someone will tell you it's not enough.
I would rather buy amps on how they sound, quality wise, than buying on whether they have 800 watts into 1 ohm or not. It's about sound quality not sound power if quality reproduction is the goal (1st watt being right than 1 million lousy watts). The AN E will play louder with less congestion with far better bass and requires flea amps to do it and costs less. It's not as pretty, but some makers are more about appearance and creating furniture with High WAF.
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