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In Reply to: Example of Why Unions Are Formed posted by Mister Pig on March 30, 2007 at 07:59:33:
Whoa Mister Pig,Your pro-union point of view doesn't ring true to most of us.
I had an opportunity years ago to witness the "value" of unions first hand before I had formulated an opinion on the subject. I was in college and worked in a closed-shop paper mill in the summers. Just to site one example of what labor unions do for business:
We were on a job repairing a machine that was costing the company thousands of dollars for every minute it was off-line. I was the only college kid working with about 7 or 8 "lifers" when a light bulb blew making it too difficult to see to complete the repairs. All of the men sat down! Wanting to prove my worth I asked where the lightbulbs were so I could run to get one. I barely got the words out of my mouth when the supervisor told me to "sit my ass down,replacing the lightbulb was a job for the electricians union. If they caught wind that we were taking work away from one of their unioned electricians there would be hell to pay!" We proceeded to sit there for almost 2 hours as the company not only lost the income from the downed machine, but also the productivity of eight or nine employess who were not allowed to change a freakin light bulb!
Now I ask you, how does that help advance the cause of any business in the U.S.? And would you assert that these men deserved their "acceptable" wage?
You know, my Dad worked for that mill from the time I was a little boy until he retired and the mill shut down. As a young boy I used to feel sorry for my Dad as he walked down the hill through the mill fence to go to work. I thought he was slaving away all day long for meanial wages. All that changed that summer I worked there. These men had it all figured out how to make 2 hours worth of work last all day. And if a young guy like me worked at a faster clip, we were reprimanded...by the bosses! Nobody wanted the company to figure out that they were really only running at 30% efficiency! Now, why do you think there has been "an appreciable loss of middle class and manufacturing jobs in this country"? Could it be because unions found a way to do less and make more, so in effect caused there own demise? Hmmmmmmm.
I also spent some time as a sales manager with Circuit City. Their business philosophy and structure have been flawed for years. When Best Buy started to eat their lunch with non-commissioned employees it finally started sinking in. For years they fought it, but the consumer has spoken...they don't want to be hawked by a salesperson when they can get essentially the same service and answers from an hourly employee.
I agree that labor unions served a purpose. But they had their run. Labor Unions are antiquated and serve absolutely no purpose now.
Follow Ups:
MP--This lightbulb thing is a corporate urban legend, a bit of non-union propoganda I've seen before.Sofla is probably doing a little ballwashing with his boss in hopes of a better spot under the desk. Ingnore the weenie.
Sorry my friend. The incident is true. This is merely one example of many I witnessed. Drew an indelible impression on me.I actually feel sorry for guys like you.
There are thousands of stories just like this about unions and it ain't some grand conspiracy by "big business"! I have seen, first hand, numerous examples of union abuse just like the one Soflaspeed described. In the backward state that I live in, unions are still a power to be reckoned with. And they are a major reason why my state ranks at the bottom in everything from education to public services!The good news is that unions are dying a slow death in this country. The faster the better before they bankrupt more businesses.
Fiddler you hate unions because you hate to be reminded that some people will stand up and not be pushed around; you despise those who remind you of your own cowardice and servility. Every ballwashing, knee-scraping, bootlicking, rubbernecked lickspittle like you wants everyone else to be that way too.
Tom,Your posts always end with the same ole stupid, "ballwashing...ass kissin'...weenie" comments. It's an obvious sign of insecurity and low self-esteem.
Guys like you with a big obnoxious mouth always sit on the sideline. That's why you need a union. You're too insecure, incapable or stupid to represent your self. If you had the "balls" that you predictably and consistently blather about, you would take control of your own destiny. But no, toughguy Tom wants the "big ole union" to protect him and his job.
Give me a break. Quit your whining and accept the fact that the average worker is now more educated, self-reliant and mobile and the day of the stupid, follow-like-sheep dunderheaded "union man" is on the wane.
The good news is that in 10 years unions will be about 5% of the workforce. The days of the obese, lazy, uneducated union worker are coming to an end.
"wants the "big ole union" to protect him and his job."Apparently the point of a union has been lost in this discussion. Unions allow "all" employees to negioate from a position of equality. One person alone does not carry sufficient clout to negioate from an even position with a large company. A union cannot protect a peson's job, only set an agreed upon set of rules that the company AND employee agree to follow. It's called a collective bargaining agreement.
the day of the stupid, follow-like-sheep dunderheaded "union man" is on the wane.
Ah this point of stupid...I have to take issue with this. So all the union members are stupid....
Teachers. Nurses. Firefighters. Police Officers. Electricians. Pipefitters. Just to name a few. I think all of them would take issue with being called stupid.
How about me? I am a rank and file union member. I work in a paper mill. Operate heavy equipment. Also have a degree in Business Administration from Eastern Washington University. B.A in Sociology from EWU. Graudiated with a 3.39. Care to call me a stupid union member also?
One thing I have discovered about working with these blue collar. "stupid, follow-like-sheep dunderheaded "union man" that you call them. Is that they can be every bit as smart and intelligent as an educated engineer. Many cases they would have made an excellent mechanical, electrical, chemical enginner, but their life path did not allow them the opportunity to go to school. NEVER assume they are stupid. All you are doing is exposing your own ignorance.
"The days of the obese, lazy, uneducated union worker are coming to an end."
Unions ar enot the powerhouse they were in the post WWII era, that is true.It is a symptom of what has gone wrong with this country. Too many manufacturing jobs have been lost oveseas. The goods being produced there are still needed by this economy, and should be made within our borders. The loss of these jobs cannot be the sole fault of union labor. (Actually with union labor you get better trained employees and a stable work force. Things that are needed to be successful in the manufacturing process.) Companies no longer take a long term look to the future. The value of the stock share can have more relevance than the product being produced today. Multi-national companies have no concern about what the effects of thier action are on individuals, states, or even the countries economy. Yet their charter is still in the US. Shouldnt they be held accountable for their actions?
You talk of the damage that unions have done to businesses, and how they handicap them. But business is more than capable of damaging themselves. It is white collar managers who are responsible for
Enron
Halliburton No-Bid contract awards
Anderson-Lay accounting scandles
the S&A disaster of the 80's
the Love Canal incident on the East Coast
the latest pipeline problems in Alaskaand the list can go on. Costs millions if not billions of dollars. All by their own hand.
I honestly believe that only organized labor is capable of negioating with large businesses on an equal footing. Companies do not want to pay a respectalbe wage if they don't have to. Thats why they make use of cheap foreign labor. It's easier to exploit another countries poor people. Organized labor is the only way to obtain a living wage from a company consistently.
Regards,
Mister Pig
Mister Pig,Keep drinking the Koolaid.
You and I see the working world from polar opposite perspectives. The good news is - my side is winning. The sooner unions are gone the better.
Please address if the issues brought up. Leave the rhetoric at home. If you can't discuss the points of contention intelligently, then don't post.Regards
Mister Pig
Who are you to dictate what my response should be. I have no obligation at all to respond to your union brainwashing.The truth of the matter is that I know your position and you know mine. Neither of us is going to change the other's mind. So I'm not going to waste a lot of my time with some long, time-consuming response to your issues. I have a business to run and if I spend too much time here and ignore the needs of my business and my employees, they may get the dumb idea that they should "organize".
"I have no obligation at all to respond to your union brainwashing."It is interesting to note that your comments consist of name calling and rhetoric.
Yes I know your position, i have a degree in business admin, and I have been a manager.
I had high hopes that an intelligent discussion could take place. I guess I was wrong.
Regards,
Mister Pig
Wow Tom, so much hate. You see, guys like Fiddler and I decided long ago that we want to drive our own bus through life. If you need someone to represent you, that's fine...sad...but fine.
Just A couple of questions here.I would have to assume that this was not a single 60 watt incadescent bulb just hanging from the ceiling.
More than likely it was a 250 watt or higher metal halide bulb. High power fixtures have their own risk.
So as a summer employee do you have the necessary training to open a high voltage electrical panel and throw the breaker? Do you have the necessary equipment to measure and verify that the breaker is open?
Do you have the training to determine if there was a reason why this bulb failed?Now if this was a regular 100 watt bulb these questions do not apply. But even something as simple as lighting in the industrial work place can have it's own inherent dangers.
Regards
Mister Pig
Oh, and the bulb failed because it got wet.Your points are valid, and if it was a more complicated situation than I described it would not have left such an impression on me. Quite literally it was a matter of running to get another light bulb and screwing it in.
There are more stories I could share, but won't, that really made me shake my head. I was absolutely amazed at what I learned there.
Just a regular ol' lightbulb
i am currently employed in the paper industry. things like that have occurred in the past, thats true.Ah but you see there is one line that stands out.....
"if a young guy like me worked at a faster clip, we were reprimanded...by the bosses!"
This is due to improper management. A union cannot protect anyone who does not do thier job. they can be reprimanded, and terminated...as long as an agreed upon set of procedures are followed.
"These men had it all figured out how to make 2 hours worth of work last all day."
Once again, foreman or supervisors not doing what their jobs require. It is human nature in ANY occupation for some people to do nothing, if supervision does not enforce their expectations.
Todays workforce has changed. Contracts have flexibility clauses installed to stop events like you describe. Pipeefillters,millwrights, and electricians are crosstrained in order to be more efficient.
while your example is a classic one used in describing the deficiencies of unions....heres another thought. What happens when unqualified/untrained individuals attelpt to repair a piece of equipment? there is a significant risk they will be hurt....and industrial machinery is quite unforgiving. In my career i have seen several summer students or new employees injured due to their lack of experience, or inability to understand their surroundings. Sometimes there is a division of labor for very good reasons.
Regards
Mister Pig
"In my career i have seen several summer students or new employees injured due to their lack of experience, or inability to understand their surroundings." Yeah, changing the lightbulb would have put me at risk for injury. Only joking.I think the overriding impression I took away from working in the closed-shop is the culture of doing as little as possible, and being proud of it. That was the philosophy of the entire place, heck, the entire town!
And you are absolutely right regarding the shortcomings of the supervisors and "bosses". You see, the supervisors were still union, while the managers or "whate hats" were salaried. All of the supervisors were in on the deception. They acted like high school kids pulling the wool over the teachers eyes. It frankly was embarrassing.
I did work in management for a company who "suffered" a union campaign. We successfully beat the union effort. You know that without exception, the employees who supported the union were the same employees that I had the most trouble with! The employees who took extra long breaks, who hid from customers, who avoided 'volunteering' to assist in projects outside of their immediate area of responsibility but were still required of them periodically, who were the last in yet the first to want to go home. The same employees who never understood the meaning fo teamwork, and were forever trying to get something for nothing were the staunchest union supporters. Kind of fell right in line with what I had experienced as a college kid in that mill.
I know my perceptions are probably scewed a little too far right. And I do believe there are some union members who are industrious and strive for better relationships with the companies they work for in pursuit of greater market share, more profits for everyone on the team, and better working conditions, wages, etc. They are just in the minority.
"I do believe there are some union members who are industrious and strive for better relationships with the companies they work for in pursuit of greater market share, more profits for everyone on the team, and better working conditions, wages, etc. They are just in the minority."in the private sector, I believe this is mor of the norm. To survive in todays market, unions and management have to work towards the same goal. The rank and file recognize this, and the majority of them do attempt to look out for the comanies(and their own)self interest.
However, there are lazy workers, just as there are bad managers. And the union really can't protect them. Although management may choose to tolerate them. For instance I have seen employees who disregard safe work practices admonished by their fellow employees. When properly implemented the system can work.
Regards,
Mister Pig
"The employees who took extra long breaks"I am making these posts from home while on vacation.
Are you doing the same? It would be unethical to use company time to surf the net and post to AA.
Of course if you are salary, it would be possible to justify the time you surf from work.
Just a question.
Regards,
Mister Pig
I own the company.
Glad to hear it. I amdire individuals who have the willingness to take the risk and do the work of running a company. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.Regards,
Mister Pig
There are valid observations on both sides.But in the case of Circuit City. Imagine asking those 3000+ employess how well their efforts were rewarded. they might have a different opinion about the value of a negioated work contract.
And just how well were they rewarded for being a team player? Working outside thier field of specialty, or coming in on their days off? Thats a nice reward, being replaced by lower paid workers....heck their jobs wern't even eliminated.
Regards,
Mister Pig
I must say though that it sounds like you have well formulated ideas based on your own life experiences. As you said there a valid points on both sides.Hey, maybe we'll meet across the negotiating table some day?
Oh not likely. I am just a rank and file member. Do not hold an office. My thoughts are just based on my life experiences, and the Business Administration degree I earned from Easern Washington University.Regards,
Mister Pig
Oh, I agree with you more than you think regarding CC. It really is a bonehead PR move, but one that unfortunately is necessary due to the competitive disadvantage they put themselves in. I do feel that many of the employees probably deserved better. I hope most of them saw this coming and prepared themselves for their next position.But I can't help but wonder what a union could have done for them. Hold on to their compensation plan while the company went under? You see, a company with poor management that fails to act in a timely manner to remain competitive is better off than one who cannot act because of a collective bargaining agreement because they still can make necessary changes to "right the ship". Even if those changes are unpopular.
I tried before I left Circuit City to shed some light on what I believed to be a flawed management style, cumbersome employee review process and lack of a proper recognition and reward system for the salespeople who did have passion for what they did. Ultimately I left because I could not embrace their management culture, and could not effect any meaningful change.
That's the beauty of our free enterprise system. You can choose to be proactively involved in your own development and future and make your own decisions, or you can choose to pay someone to represent you. Personally I think you'd be better off "driving your own bus."
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