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In Reply to: RE: Metal Grain Structure posted by geoffkait on May 16, 2023 at 14:37:01
how about directionality in a semiconductor where the Aluminum Layer is deposited at right angles to the substrate?
When looking at cross sections (SEMs are wonderful that way) there IS asymmetry from side to side of a step and other effects from center of the 'wafer' (6", in this case) to edge.....
Too much is never enough
Follow Ups:
I don't know the answer to that one, but if you are following my logic that the implication of fuse directionality is that all wire is directional then internal speaker wire shoukd be controlled for directionality, so should inductors, transformer wire, capacitor wire, in other words everything. Internal electronics wiring, power cords, HDMI cables, you name it.
Which turns it into an insoluble problem.
Unless wire or cable is manufactured in some known fashion.
I hate to bring it up, but how do you account for directionality in an AC circuit?
Too much is never enough
They are all AC circuits in an audio system.
There are no DC circuits in audio equipment?
:)
Dave.
I just saw that. I always thought the rectifier in the PS yielded DC, but maybe I don't understand rectification.....even after working for IR (International rectifier) for a decade and change?
Too much is never enough
" I always thought the rectifier in the PS yielded DC"
It does but until it is filtered it is "pulsating" DC. It looks a lot like AC but it is all either positive DC (all above the zero volts line) or negative DC (not shown, all below the zero volts line).
It only becomes "smooth" DC (one straight line either above or below the zero volt line) after the PS filter (normally made from chokes and caps).
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Even if there is a DC circuit in audio systems it's only an exception to the rule. All the circuits we are concerned with for the discussions of directionality and fuses are AC. AC power cord coming into the amplifier, speaker cables, interconnects, digital cable, fuse(s) in the amp, fuse in the speaker. They're all AC circuits.
Edits: 05/22/23
No. At least none I can think of. Does that surprise you?Speaker cables, interconnects, digital cable, AC power cord, HDMI cable, they're all AC circuits.
Edits: 05/20/23
Excellent questions. The reason wire is directional is because the symmetrical atomic structure, the lattice structure gets deformed during manufacture. Especially when it's drawn through one or more dies. Microscopically one can see the physical surface of the wire is not smooth, the surface AND the metal below the surface has also been deformed by the drawing through the die(s). The crystal metal lattice.The logic for why wire is directional AC circuits is as follows. Two wires are required to make an AC circuit. For both + and - wires free electrons travel in both directions. Whenever electrons travel in one direction on one wire they travel in the opposite direction on the other wire. That is probably obvious. The electrons change directions according to the instantaneous audio frequency. Since the free electron velocity in a conductor is very slow, electrons don't move much at all. And their net velocity is zero, since the electrons are wiggling back and forth rapidly. Again, sorry if I'm saying something obvious.
The induced electric field E of the signal in the wire interacts with the voice coil and big magnet of the speaker. A moving E field produces a magnetic field. But the interaction occurs only when the "signal" on that wire is traveling toward the speaker. But when the "signal" changes direction, goes away from the speaker, it doesn't affect the speaker. Note that at that instant the other wire is sending a "signal" to the other speaker terminal. That combination of + and - signals is what makes the speaker diaphragm move out and in. With me so far?
So, both + and - wires should ideally be controlled for directionality during the manufacturing process, so that the direction with the lowest voltage drop points to the speaker. You have to control both wires for the best sound.
When a fuse is inserted on one leg of the AC circuit, the fuse should be controlled for directionality so that when electrons travel in the direction toward the speakers they will "see" the lowest voltage drop. That position will also be the best sound. Of course the wire for the other leg of the AC circuit may or may not be oriented correctly, unless the power cord was controlled for directionality it's a 50-50 proposition.
Edits: 05/19/23 05/19/23
Can you have an AC circuit with just one wire?
Dave.
What do you think?
I'm asking you.
Dave.
Homework assignment - find me one audio circuit that's not AC.
That's not what I asked you though. :)
'Try to stay focused.
Dave.
So many questions. Isn't the answer obvious? Would one terminal on the speaker work?
So your answer is "no"? :)
Dave.
I'm waiting for you to give me an exception to the rule. I never say never. Cable manufacturers would undoubtedly be elated to hear they couid now make audiophile cables using only one wire. Audiophiles would rejoice, prices would be cut in half.
"Two wires are required to make an AC circuit." Was that not your quote?
Dave.
You're hot dogging me, right? If you're pretending to be obtuse you're doing an excellent job.
It only appears obtuse, to you.
Dave.
So, Mr. Smarty Pants, have you found anything to dispute what I've said? No, of course you haven't.
Isn't an antenna a single wire AC 'source'?
Too much is never enough
An Antenna uses a ground plane, that's your second wire.
"In antenna theory, a ground plane is a conducting surface large in comparison to the wavelength, such as the Earth, which is connected to the transmitter's ground wire and serves as a reflecting surface for radio waves."
DC circuits also require a second wire.
For work to be done, a complete circuit is required.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
You don't need two wires to have a circuit....technically. :)
You need two potentials to create a source, but you can connect those two with a single wire/circuit.Your house has numerous appliances that consist of single wire element that operate on AC.
In fact, the standard amplifier/speaker interface is actually a single wire series circuit. It might not look like one, but it is. (Ignoring the minor intrinsics of the connection cable.)
The illustrious Mr. Kait will accuse me of semantics, but I don't give a shit what he says.
Dave.
Edits: 05/22/23
But we're talking about audio, not home appliances. Duh! Pseudo skeptics will try to argue any absurd point.
It's all basic electricity dude. It doesn't matter whether it's audio or not.
Get thee to an Electronics 101 class, pronto.
Dave.
That's what all pseudo skeptics say, dude.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"...is actually a single wire series circuit"
Yep.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"But when the "signal" changes direction, goes away from the speaker, it doesn't affect the speaker."That is not true. The "signal going away from the speaker" affects the speaker just as much as the "signal going towards the speaker".
The signal going away from the speaker, in one of the two wires, IS the signal going towards the speaker in the other wire. And that signal can only flow towards the speaker as good as it is allowed to flow away from the speaker and visa versa. Any obstruction to the signal flow in the wire flowing the signal away from the speaker will obstruct the signal flowing towards the speaker and visa versa. And that is obvious to the rest of us. Just not you for some reason.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/20/23
Each wire transmits 1/2 of the signal. Each time the speaker diaphragm moves out it's 1/2 of a cycle, when it moves back in that's the other half of the cycle. The only time the diaphragm moves either in or out is when a signal travels to the speaker terminal on either + or - wire. Follow? It I takes two wires to push/pull the speaker diaphragm.
"Each wire transmits 1/2 of the signal. "That is totally wrong. Each wire transmits the whole signal.
Each wire is of equal importance at all times.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/20/23
No, you're way off. Get thee to a library pronto!
A complete circuit is a circle. The current that flows, flows around the circle and through every part in the circle. You can't have one part of the circle doing a bad job allowing the current to flow and still have good current flow in the other parts of the circle.
The current that flows through the voice coil flows through all of the other parts of the circuit including both wires. When the current flows one direction, the speaker voice coil moves out and when the current reverses direction, the voice coil moves in. For that to happen all of the parts of the circuit (circle) have to have that same current flowing through them. Any part that is not properly flowing the current, in either direction, will directly affect the current in the voice coil and therefore affect the movement of the voice coil. And affect the sound of the speaker.
This is basic stuff.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The fact that wire is actually directional means that my description is correct and that yours is wrong. Pseudo skeptics, those who do not believe wire is directional, have always claimed that the current flows in both directions therefore fuses or cables cannot be directional. That the current flowing away from speaker affects the sound. But that cannot be true. The reason it can't be true is because, as I stated, only the current flowing toward the speaker on both terminals + and - affects the sound. You are in fact talking in circles.
Furthermore, current doesn't actually flow in a wire, current is a calculated quantity, it has no direction or speed. It's a scalar quantity. The only thing moving in an AC circuit is the free electrons, and they move very slowly. It's easier if you consider the wiggling back and forth of electrons as a push pull. That is how the speaker diaphragm moves - pushed pull according to the "signal" coming into the + terminal and pull by signal coming into the - terminal. The motion OUT and IN of the speaker diaphragm is produced by the wiggling electrons alternating direction at the instantaneous audio frequency. The electrons only move about a millionth of an inch at a time. Does that surprise you?
With this concept of how the AC circuit works, all cables and fuses in the system can be manufactured to produce the best sound. All that is required is to keep track of the direction of the wire that sounds best, as it comes off the spool. As I stated both + and - wires should be controlled for directionality.
Pseudo skeptics could prove this concept that wire is directional to themselves very easily but of course they never do. I guess they would rather fight about it.
"only the current flowing toward the speaker on both terminals + and - affects the sound." So is there current flowing away from the speaker?What affect would there be from placing a 100 ohm resistor (just for every other half cycle) in the wire leading away from the speaker? I guess by your logic, none?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/21/23
Why would I address your question? You little pseudo skeptics are working overtime to come up with every absurd idea you can think of. Plus you put words in my mouth. Excellent examples of logical fallacies. You want to talk but you don't want to listen. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason.
Edits: 05/21/23
Anything you do to either wire will affect the signal flowing through the speaker's voice coil. The wire leading away from the speaker is just as important as the wire leading to the speaker and just because you say otherwise doesn't make it true.
I don't know where you got this crazy idea that the wire leading away from the speaker doesn't affect the sound of the speaker but that idea is just as wrong as it can be.
If you put a 100 ohm resistor in one lead of the speaker it will affect both halves of the wave form flowing through the speaker's voice coil equally and I can prove it and so can you. Just get an o-scope.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I never said that. You keep putting words in my mouth. Try to follow the conversation. What I said was that when electrons move in the direction away from the speaker - anywhere in the system - they don't affect the sound. That is true for both + and - wires. As I've stated the electrons hardly move at all while they wiggle back and forth.and their net velocity is zero.
Edits: 05/21/23 05/21/23 05/21/23
You said,"only the current flowing toward the speaker on both terminals + and - affects the sound."You also said. "All of these quantities arise from the moving charges, i.e., current, inside the conductor itself. That's why the conductor and dielectric properties are important. "
The current (electrons) have to flow through something. You have been concerned about the directionality of wire so when you say "only the current flowing toward the speaker on both terminals + and - affects the sound." I assumed you meant that the wire being used was only good in one direction. That is why I assumed that you meant that the wire that has the electrons flowing away from the speaker does not, can not, affect the sound of the speaker so it is OK if that wire, in that direction, is not great.
so which is it? Does the direction or quality of the wire make any difference when it is carrying electrons that are flowing away from the speaker?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/21/23
The electrons move inside the copper conductor. Their motion is affected by the direction of deformation of the crystal lattice structure, among other things. Electron motion is also affected by other factors like purity of copper, dielectric material, connector materials, etc.The Poynting vector energy flux density moves inside the dielectric material and points in the direction of the moving electrons. The E and B fields follow one another along the axis of the wire and are oriented perpendicular to the axis of the wire, and to each other. So, things are more complicated than just electrons moving.
Edits: 05/21/23
I get that but the the E and B fields are affected by the wire and by all the wire equally, not just the wire leading to the speaker but also the wire leading away from the speaker.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The Poynting vector is most likely an electromagnetic wave which explains how the actual signal produced by the amplifier gets to the speaker instantaneously, the E and B fields are not like the electrons, which don't really move. It's the E and B fields that control the diaphragm not the electrons. Electrons may be a bit of a red herring. A better way to view this is the moving E and B fields coming into and away from the speaker. We now realize electrons only move a millionth of an inch at a time so they can't suddenly appear a meter or two downstream from the amp. The E and B fields are variable in terms of length and amplitude so the speaker diaphragm can play long notes and adjust to dynamics. The E and B fields contain the energy. The Poynting vector is the energy flux density. The Poynting vector and the E and B fields are a function of the physical and electrical characteristics of the metal wire. The speed of the Poynting vector through the dielectric is near lightspeed.
Edits: 05/21/23
"The Poynting vector and the E and B fields are a function of the physical and electrical characteristics of the metal wire."
Yes. A function of all the wire in the complete circuit, all at the same time, in the moment. Moment by moment.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
That's why ALL wire in ALL circuits in the system should be controlled for directionality, including all wiring in the electronics, the transformer wire, internal speaker wire, fuses, power cord, etc. because they are ALL operating *simultaneously." What happens with the AC power cord and the AC power fuse affects the final sound, and so forth.
Edits: 05/22/23 05/22/23
Yes, but you say to face the "good" direction of the wire "towards" the speaker.
That means the bad direction of the wire is facing away from the speaker.
The bad direction of both wires is being used to flow the electrons away from the speaker and I am trying to explain to you that that is just as bad as the bad direction of the wire flowing the electrons towards the speaker.
The voice coil doesn't know the difference. All the wire matters exactly the same. It makes no difference if the electrons are going towards the speaker's voice coil or away from it.
Anything bad that is happening in either wire, at any point along the length of either wire, in either direction, will directly affect what is happening in the voice coil wire.
The two speakers wires and the voice coil wire should be thought of as one contentious piece of wire. Because electrically they are.
You talk about the electrons flowing "towards" the speaker and 'away" from the speaker. What exactly do you mean by "towards" the speaker? Where do you draw the line? At the speakers wire terminal on the back of the speaker box? Or the speaker terminals on the frame of the speaker driver itself?
I say the electrons are flowing towards (or away) from the electrical center of the voice coil wire. That would make more sense from an engineering stand point. So now your whole theory falls to pieces.
You need to think of audio electronics this way, everything that happens in a circuit happens at the same time everywhere in that circuit.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. A weakness anywhere in a audio circuit affects the whole circuit.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
We have have just discussed the electrons really aren't moving in the conductor, just a millionth of an inch at a time, on average. So in reality electrons in the fuse or cable or wherever upstream never advance beyond that point. Net velocity is zero. They just wiggle back and forth at audio frequency. The E field (and B field), on the other hand, is affected by all wire and cables upstream and is part and parcel of the Poynting vector, which is an electromagnetic wave. You haven't been paying attention to my last few posts. We're off electrons. They are a distraction, a red herring. It's the E field that is the "audio signal" not the electrons. The E and B fields contain the energy as has been pointed out, and are located entirely outside the conductor.
Edits: 05/22/23 05/22/23 05/22/23
"It's the E field that is the "audio signal" not the electrons."
That is correct and that E field is affected by both wires. The wire going away from the speaker just as much as the wire going towards the speaker.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
But only one wire works at a time. When one wire is doing the work you can ignore the other wire and what's happening on it. That's why the direction of both wires matters. Are you about to have a breakthrough?
It takes both wires or nothing happens.You have to understand that, don't you?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/22/23
As Randall McMurphy said in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest after he failed to lift the 300 lbs water cooler by himself, at least I tried. Good luck in your quest for mediocrity.
Tre - are you trying to convince him, refute him, or are you letting him drag you along and endlessly confuse you. This discussion has i.e. done little good and only entertained him. He always gets a thrill out of that because this is only on a conceptual level - "relating to or based on mental concepts"
otherwise he should have included a link to at least one reference paper or book to verify and confirm it
"Polemics" - "the art or practice of engaging in controversial debate or dispute" usually ends up with no definitive conclusion. If I am in err, then let it continue
I don't know what his game is but it is clear he has no understanding of audio electronics.
Unless this is all just a silly game?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The audiophiles who bought more than 150,000 advanced audiophile fuses, all of which are directional, or...-. You?
A whole lot of people like the Bose model 901s speakers driven by 1970's Japanese SS receivers. That only proves that people, in general, are stupid.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
My game is to educate you. But you think you know it all. Typical pseudo skeptics game. Straighten up and fly right. Don't be a mossback.
Edits: 05/22/23
I am telling you that if I changed your wire direction without your knowledge you would never hear the difference.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
it's his game, he thinks he's calling the shots and thinks he can lead anyone around on a leash. Don't forget to look up Machina Dynamica and Geoff Kait on Bing, don't use Google. There's a bunch of stuff there which may answer a few questions about who you're dealing with
I have seen his website.
It all a bunch a BS
but you know hat they say about a fool and his money?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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