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In Reply to: RE: Metal Grain Structure posted by Tre' on May 20, 2023 at 10:18:49
No, you're way off. Get thee to a library pronto!
Follow Ups:
A complete circuit is a circle. The current that flows, flows around the circle and through every part in the circle. You can't have one part of the circle doing a bad job allowing the current to flow and still have good current flow in the other parts of the circle.
The current that flows through the voice coil flows through all of the other parts of the circuit including both wires. When the current flows one direction, the speaker voice coil moves out and when the current reverses direction, the voice coil moves in. For that to happen all of the parts of the circuit (circle) have to have that same current flowing through them. Any part that is not properly flowing the current, in either direction, will directly affect the current in the voice coil and therefore affect the movement of the voice coil. And affect the sound of the speaker.
This is basic stuff.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The fact that wire is actually directional means that my description is correct and that yours is wrong. Pseudo skeptics, those who do not believe wire is directional, have always claimed that the current flows in both directions therefore fuses or cables cannot be directional. That the current flowing away from speaker affects the sound. But that cannot be true. The reason it can't be true is because, as I stated, only the current flowing toward the speaker on both terminals + and - affects the sound. You are in fact talking in circles.
Furthermore, current doesn't actually flow in a wire, current is a calculated quantity, it has no direction or speed. It's a scalar quantity. The only thing moving in an AC circuit is the free electrons, and they move very slowly. It's easier if you consider the wiggling back and forth of electrons as a push pull. That is how the speaker diaphragm moves - pushed pull according to the "signal" coming into the + terminal and pull by signal coming into the - terminal. The motion OUT and IN of the speaker diaphragm is produced by the wiggling electrons alternating direction at the instantaneous audio frequency. The electrons only move about a millionth of an inch at a time. Does that surprise you?
With this concept of how the AC circuit works, all cables and fuses in the system can be manufactured to produce the best sound. All that is required is to keep track of the direction of the wire that sounds best, as it comes off the spool. As I stated both + and - wires should be controlled for directionality.
Pseudo skeptics could prove this concept that wire is directional to themselves very easily but of course they never do. I guess they would rather fight about it.
"only the current flowing toward the speaker on both terminals + and - affects the sound." So is there current flowing away from the speaker?What affect would there be from placing a 100 ohm resistor (just for every other half cycle) in the wire leading away from the speaker? I guess by your logic, none?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/21/23
Why would I address your question? You little pseudo skeptics are working overtime to come up with every absurd idea you can think of. Plus you put words in my mouth. Excellent examples of logical fallacies. You want to talk but you don't want to listen. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason.
Edits: 05/21/23
Anything you do to either wire will affect the signal flowing through the speaker's voice coil. The wire leading away from the speaker is just as important as the wire leading to the speaker and just because you say otherwise doesn't make it true.
I don't know where you got this crazy idea that the wire leading away from the speaker doesn't affect the sound of the speaker but that idea is just as wrong as it can be.
If you put a 100 ohm resistor in one lead of the speaker it will affect both halves of the wave form flowing through the speaker's voice coil equally and I can prove it and so can you. Just get an o-scope.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I never said that. You keep putting words in my mouth. Try to follow the conversation. What I said was that when electrons move in the direction away from the speaker - anywhere in the system - they don't affect the sound. That is true for both + and - wires. As I've stated the electrons hardly move at all while they wiggle back and forth.and their net velocity is zero.
Edits: 05/21/23 05/21/23 05/21/23
You said,"only the current flowing toward the speaker on both terminals + and - affects the sound."You also said. "All of these quantities arise from the moving charges, i.e., current, inside the conductor itself. That's why the conductor and dielectric properties are important. "
The current (electrons) have to flow through something. You have been concerned about the directionality of wire so when you say "only the current flowing toward the speaker on both terminals + and - affects the sound." I assumed you meant that the wire being used was only good in one direction. That is why I assumed that you meant that the wire that has the electrons flowing away from the speaker does not, can not, affect the sound of the speaker so it is OK if that wire, in that direction, is not great.
so which is it? Does the direction or quality of the wire make any difference when it is carrying electrons that are flowing away from the speaker?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/21/23
The electrons move inside the copper conductor. Their motion is affected by the direction of deformation of the crystal lattice structure, among other things. Electron motion is also affected by other factors like purity of copper, dielectric material, connector materials, etc.The Poynting vector energy flux density moves inside the dielectric material and points in the direction of the moving electrons. The E and B fields follow one another along the axis of the wire and are oriented perpendicular to the axis of the wire, and to each other. So, things are more complicated than just electrons moving.
Edits: 05/21/23
I get that but the the E and B fields are affected by the wire and by all the wire equally, not just the wire leading to the speaker but also the wire leading away from the speaker.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The Poynting vector is most likely an electromagnetic wave which explains how the actual signal produced by the amplifier gets to the speaker instantaneously, the E and B fields are not like the electrons, which don't really move. It's the E and B fields that control the diaphragm not the electrons. Electrons may be a bit of a red herring. A better way to view this is the moving E and B fields coming into and away from the speaker. We now realize electrons only move a millionth of an inch at a time so they can't suddenly appear a meter or two downstream from the amp. The E and B fields are variable in terms of length and amplitude so the speaker diaphragm can play long notes and adjust to dynamics. The E and B fields contain the energy. The Poynting vector is the energy flux density. The Poynting vector and the E and B fields are a function of the physical and electrical characteristics of the metal wire. The speed of the Poynting vector through the dielectric is near lightspeed.
Edits: 05/21/23
"The Poynting vector and the E and B fields are a function of the physical and electrical characteristics of the metal wire."
Yes. A function of all the wire in the complete circuit, all at the same time, in the moment. Moment by moment.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
That's why ALL wire in ALL circuits in the system should be controlled for directionality, including all wiring in the electronics, the transformer wire, internal speaker wire, fuses, power cord, etc. because they are ALL operating *simultaneously." What happens with the AC power cord and the AC power fuse affects the final sound, and so forth.
Edits: 05/22/23 05/22/23
Yes, but you say to face the "good" direction of the wire "towards" the speaker.
That means the bad direction of the wire is facing away from the speaker.
The bad direction of both wires is being used to flow the electrons away from the speaker and I am trying to explain to you that that is just as bad as the bad direction of the wire flowing the electrons towards the speaker.
The voice coil doesn't know the difference. All the wire matters exactly the same. It makes no difference if the electrons are going towards the speaker's voice coil or away from it.
Anything bad that is happening in either wire, at any point along the length of either wire, in either direction, will directly affect what is happening in the voice coil wire.
The two speakers wires and the voice coil wire should be thought of as one contentious piece of wire. Because electrically they are.
You talk about the electrons flowing "towards" the speaker and 'away" from the speaker. What exactly do you mean by "towards" the speaker? Where do you draw the line? At the speakers wire terminal on the back of the speaker box? Or the speaker terminals on the frame of the speaker driver itself?
I say the electrons are flowing towards (or away) from the electrical center of the voice coil wire. That would make more sense from an engineering stand point. So now your whole theory falls to pieces.
You need to think of audio electronics this way, everything that happens in a circuit happens at the same time everywhere in that circuit.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. A weakness anywhere in a audio circuit affects the whole circuit.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
We have have just discussed the electrons really aren't moving in the conductor, just a millionth of an inch at a time, on average. So in reality electrons in the fuse or cable or wherever upstream never advance beyond that point. Net velocity is zero. They just wiggle back and forth at audio frequency. The E field (and B field), on the other hand, is affected by all wire and cables upstream and is part and parcel of the Poynting vector, which is an electromagnetic wave. You haven't been paying attention to my last few posts. We're off electrons. They are a distraction, a red herring. It's the E field that is the "audio signal" not the electrons. The E and B fields contain the energy as has been pointed out, and are located entirely outside the conductor.
Edits: 05/22/23 05/22/23 05/22/23
"It's the E field that is the "audio signal" not the electrons."
That is correct and that E field is affected by both wires. The wire going away from the speaker just as much as the wire going towards the speaker.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
But only one wire works at a time. When one wire is doing the work you can ignore the other wire and what's happening on it. That's why the direction of both wires matters. Are you about to have a breakthrough?
It takes both wires or nothing happens.You have to understand that, don't you?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/22/23
As Randall McMurphy said in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest after he failed to lift the 300 lbs water cooler by himself, at least I tried. Good luck in your quest for mediocrity.
Tre - are you trying to convince him, refute him, or are you letting him drag you along and endlessly confuse you. This discussion has i.e. done little good and only entertained him. He always gets a thrill out of that because this is only on a conceptual level - "relating to or based on mental concepts"
otherwise he should have included a link to at least one reference paper or book to verify and confirm it
"Polemics" - "the art or practice of engaging in controversial debate or dispute" usually ends up with no definitive conclusion. If I am in err, then let it continue
I don't know what his game is but it is clear he has no understanding of audio electronics.
Unless this is all just a silly game?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The audiophiles who bought more than 150,000 advanced audiophile fuses, all of which are directional, or...-. You?
A whole lot of people like the Bose model 901s speakers driven by 1970's Japanese SS receivers. That only proves that people, in general, are stupid.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
My game is to educate you. But you think you know it all. Typical pseudo skeptics game. Straighten up and fly right. Don't be a mossback.
Edits: 05/22/23
I am telling you that if I changed your wire direction without your knowledge you would never hear the difference.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
it's his game, he thinks he's calling the shots and thinks he can lead anyone around on a leash. Don't forget to look up Machina Dynamica and Geoff Kait on Bing, don't use Google. There's a bunch of stuff there which may answer a few questions about who you're dealing with
I have seen his website.
It all a bunch a BS
but you know hat they say about a fool and his money?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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