I suppose, but where do the arguments come from then? - Saul P

Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - Saul P 23:46:17 12/13/05 (208)

Philosopher? Okay, answer this: How many angels can dance on the head of my stylus? - Spinner 11:36:23 12/21/05 (0)

Are you a philosopher? - Pat D 19:22:36 12/15/05 (0)

Don't kid yourself -- Science isn't remotely at the level of philosophy... - RGA 15:35:57 12/15/05 (2)

I think science is one of the few fields not entirely tainted by capitalism. - Saul P 20:09:53 12/15/05 (1)

Not entirely, but 98% tainted is still pretty close. :0) [nt] - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 09:03:34 12/19/05 (0)

From a piscatorial perspective - Troutbum 10:14:26 12/15/05 (1)

Which version of the Trout Quintet I would think might - musetap 11:07:24 12/15/05 (0)

Take figure skating for example. - Presto 10:02:13 12/15/05 (2)

Both subjective AND objective processes are used in the figure skating. - Saul P 20:05:22 12/15/05 (1)

Funny thing about figure skating scores... - Presto 22:29:09 12/15/05 (0)

Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 10:01:12 12/15/05 (0)

Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - Woofer15 09:03:02 12/15/05 (0)

Didn't take you long to figure out how - kavakidd 19:00:47 12/14/05 (2)

This is the first post I've EVER had that had more than, say, 3 responses. - Saul P 20:00:14 12/15/05 (0)

It really doesn't take much, does it? Pavlov' dogs come to mind...N/T - musetap 20:06:19 12/14/05 (0)

Objective vs. subjective not the point. You can measure better than you have can hear. - jsm 14:23:32 12/14/05 (10)

I Could Not Disagree More.... - Todd Krieger 21:55:29 12/14/05 (5)

I have never seen anyone so completely misunderstand what I written!!! - jsm 11:59:31 12/15/05 (2)

Long Posts and Sarcasm..... - Todd Krieger 17:30:04 12/15/05 (1)

I give up. There was zero sarcasm in my original post. - jsm 11:22:36 12/16/05 (0)

John Atkinson has written the same thing. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:54:23 12/15/05 (0)

Todd, the poster might argue your instrumentation was not sensitive enough * - Guy 23:40:34 12/14/05 (0)

Measureable or Not? - Sommovigo 21:35:53 12/14/05 (2)

Thanks for an excellent post!...N/T - musetap 11:14:36 12/15/05 (0)

This is all EXACTLY RIGHT. Read it, EVERYONE. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:56:47 12/15/05 (0)

I agree. My father is a high-energy physicist. - Saul P 16:35:27 12/14/05 (0)

This topic must mean that too many have too much time on their hands - Norm 13:49:21 12/14/05 (3)

True, I'm guilty- it being a slow day at work...You're right & that IS the question of interest...N/T. - musetap 16:06:11 12/14/05 (0)

Re: This topic must mean that too many have too much time on their hands - andy19191 15:48:36 12/14/05 (1)

I should add "technical audio knowledge" to the rhetoric. Again no one will be convinced. nt - Norm 16:22:03 12/14/05 (0)

Audio philosophy... - mkuller 11:26:28 12/14/05 (37)

Good point Mike - let me go a little further - - kavakidd 19:04:47 12/14/05 (0)

Re: Audio philosophy... - andy19191 14:59:35 12/14/05 (8)

Validation - David Aiken 16:58:59 12/15/05 (7)

Re: Validation - andy19191 18:09:56 12/15/05 (6)

au contraireâ€¦ - David Aiken 23:08:20 12/15/05 (5)

Re: au contraireâ€¦ - andy19191 06:51:56 12/16/05 (4)

Validationâ€¦ - mkuller 09:44:33 12/16/05 (3)

Re: Validationâ€¦ - andy19191 11:51:34 12/16/05 (2)

Re: Validationâ€¦ - mkuller 13:31:54 12/16/05 (1)

Re: Validationâ€¦ - andy19191 15:19:01 12/16/05 (1)

Re: Audio philosophy... - Roscoe East 14:23:05 12/14/05 (26)

Re: Audio philosophy... - David Aiken 22:19:44 12/14/05 (13)

"[Using] a particular type of test protocol such as DBT/ABX does not guarantee that you have a good test design." YES!! - clarkjohnsen 09:02:19 12/15/05 (12)

Not using a similar protocol will guarantee it's a bad design, though. (nt) - Pat D 08:50:29 12/16/05 (11)

Why? - David Aiken 19:44:50 12/16/05 (8)

They're not gonna listen to you. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:29:57 12/17/05 (0)

Even for speakers, blind is best. - Pat D 22:04:56 12/16/05 (6)

Re: Even for speakers, blind is best. - David Aiken 23:16:13 12/16/05 (5)

You're so right, but they're still not gonna listen. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:30:40 12/17/05 (4)

Re: You're so right, but they're still not gonna listen. nt - Pat D 10:06:50 12/19/05 (3)

Comments (lengthy) - David Aiken 15:45:24 12/19/05 (0)

"It still remains that sighted listening is less reliable than controlled DBTs." That's an assertion; or is there proof? - clarkjohnsen 13:46:43 12/19/05 (1)

Re: "It still remains that sighted listening is less reliable than controlled DBTs." That's an assertion; or is there pr - Pat D 16:34:48 12/19/05 (0)

And your proof is...? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:04:38 12/16/05 (1)

And your "proof" for ANYTHING you write about audio is ..... I guess it is missing -- proof is never required for you - Richard BassNut Greene 08:54:38 12/17/05 (0)

But don't we *want* to be able to measure what we hear? - Saul P 16:18:51 12/14/05 (11)

Actually - I don't think many are looking for common ground - kavakidd 21:33:01 12/14/05 (1)

Common ground - kerr 04:58:10 12/15/05 (0)

Re: But don't we *want* to be able to measure what we hear? - john curl 16:50:13 12/14/05 (8)

Re: But don't we *want* to be able to measure what we hear? - Soundmind 04:50:02 12/15/05 (7)

"Otherwise you will bang your head against the same wall for the rest of your life.Believe me, it isn't going to budge." - bjh 09:53:26 12/15/05 (6)

Re: "Otherwise you will bang your head against the same wall for the rest of your life.Believe me, it isn't going to bud - Soundmind 13:26:00 12/15/05 (5)

No doubt, it follows from the preponderance of manure. nt - bjh 14:34:26 12/15/05 (3)

That would be the advertising of all the me too equipment - Soundmind 15:57:57 12/15/05 (2)

Let me offer some advice ... lay off the juice before posting. Thanks in advance, Cheers. nt - bjh 16:20:54 12/15/05 (1)

And you...get a life nt - Soundmind 16:59:40 12/15/05 (0)

If the grass is greener... - mkuller 13:59:04 12/15/05 (0)

False dilemma. - Al Sekela 10:35:22 12/14/05 (16)

I suppose, but where do the arguments come from then? - Saul P 14:21:36 12/14/05 (1)

Re: I agree, I don't quite see the connection. [NT] - Guy 23:42:26 12/14/05 (0)

Straw man - Silver Eared John 11:26:09 12/14/05 (12)

Contiuously revised because scientists used faulty data - lancelot 13:04:34 12/14/05 (3)

All science is provisional - Silver Eared John 15:32:08 12/14/05 (0)

Re: Contiuously revised because scientists used faulty data - andy19191 14:02:39 12/14/05 (1)

The point I was trying to make - lancelot 16:04:21 12/14/05 (0)

Practitioners of Scientism - Al Sekela 11:48:44 12/14/05 (7)

This Kheper person seems confused... - andy_c 20:34:22 12/14/05 (0)

Y'all got an issue with "provisional"? - Silver Eared John 15:34:08 12/14/05 (4)

No, but you seem to have a problem with comprehension. - Al Sekela 08:59:52 12/15/05 (0)

If I may... - kerr 16:00:40 12/14/05 (2)

Y'all have to show it exists, yes? - Silver Eared John 16:25:44 12/14/05 (1)

Curious about something - kerr 05:07:43 12/15/05 (0)

Re: Practitioners of Scientism - kerr 12:15:50 12/14/05 (0)

Brilliant!! Astute!!... ('nuff said so N/T) - musetap 11:09:11 12/14/05 (0)

Synergy: The right amount of ingredients in the bread dough. - musetap 10:29:02 12/14/05 (8)

Then try changing the brand of flour -- still four level cups, but man, the difference! nt - clarkjohnsen 09:23:35 12/15/05 (0)

This is beautifully stated. - Saul P 16:14:19 12/14/05 (1)

Re: This is beautifully stated. - musetap 20:30:09 12/14/05 (0)

Re: Synergy: The right amount of ingredients in the bread dough. - andy19191 12:32:44 12/14/05 (3)

most cooks... - dave c 14:45:05 12/14/05 (0)

Most educated, civilised people have no problem accepting people of other persuasions since it makes... - musetap 13:42:55 12/14/05 (1)

Re: Most educated, civilised people have no problem accepting people of other persuasions since it makes... - andy_c 21:15:05 12/14/05 (0)

"Science is certainly important, but not always. Art is always important." YES!! nt - clarkjohnsen 11:03:20 12/14/05 (0)

I see this as the crux of the problem: is synergy really measurable? - Robert Hamel 10:00:15 12/14/05 (1)

But a conundrum to me is that a "state of mind" is a physical thing. - Saul P 16:05:30 12/14/05 (0)

We should go back to the good old days when "science" was known as "natural philosophy". nt - clarkjohnsen 09:35:16 12/14/05 (1)

Re: It's not 'natural' today. * - Guy 21:24:28 12/14/05 (0)

Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - andy19191 09:18:30 12/14/05 (4)

This is one of the cool things about audio. - Saul P 16:02:41 12/14/05 (1)

Re: It was described many moons ago,... - theaudiohobby 08:40:12 12/15/05 (0)

What about non-linear deviations? (nt) - mkuller 11:11:38 12/14/05 (1)

Re: What about non-linear deviations? (nt) - andy19191 11:28:00 12/14/05 (0)

An inmate's perspective on a couple of points - soulfood 09:08:16 12/14/05 (2)

Do I understand you? - Saul P 15:59:11 12/14/05 (1)

Re: Do I understand you? - soulfood 16:46:25 12/14/05 (0)

With all due respect ... - bjh 08:40:04 12/14/05 (14)

Re: With all due respect ...what you're congenitally incapable of * - Guy 23:46:17 12/14/05 (0)

Not a difficult question at all - PabloP 21:44:19 12/14/05 (1)

I see ... - bjh 05:27:38 12/15/05 (0)

Re: With all due respect ... - andy19191 09:24:42 12/14/05 (10)

Your "experince" LOL! That's a good one! Your type avoids "experience" like the plague. Anyway, thanks for the laugh. nt - bjh 10:21:50 12/14/05 (9)

Re: Your "experince" LOL! That's a good one! Your type avoids "experience" like the plague. Anyway, thanks for the laugh - andy19191 11:14:54 12/14/05 (8)

Re: Andy, just ignore the imposter. * - Guy 23:47:09 12/14/05 (0)

"Reliable" references - kerr 12:22:32 12/14/05 (6)

Re: "Reliable" references - andy19191 13:28:23 12/14/05 (5)

Re: "Reliable" references - kerr 15:36:00 12/14/05 (2)

"One of us needs to get out more!" Thas' funny, man. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:12:08 12/15/05 (1)

Well, I didn't specify which one of us! (nt) - kerr 11:10:31 12/15/05 (0)

Is this you? - mkuller 13:49:12 12/14/05 (1)

Re: Is this you? - andy19191 16:28:17 12/14/05 (0)

The arguments are not about measurements or science: They are about audio beliefs versus audio reality - Richard BassNut Greene 08:29:23 12/14/05 (46)

No, it's about the 10%... - Rod M 18:28:00 12/14/05 (22)

Your character attack on blind audition participants and disjointed "logic" are amazing! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:22:53 12/15/05 (19)

Did you bother to read EGeddes post? - Rod M 09:53:51 12/15/05 (11)

I responded to the Geddes post 8 minutes before you posted this ! - Richard BassNut Greene 10:18:57 12/15/05 (10)

You're the only expanding definitions... - Rod M 16:58:12 12/15/05 (9)

In summary: Your ears are superior (with no proof).. while audiophiles in blind auditions are fools (with no evidence) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:17:06 12/16/05 (3)

Will you ever answer the question? - Rod M 19:12:01 12/16/05 (0)

Why oh why.... - mkuller 10:39:00 12/16/05 (1)

mkuller should be very delighted to know he is now OFF my "Don't take this poster seriously" list . - Richard BassNut Greene 14:38:47 12/16/05 (1)

Re: You're the only expanding definitions... - Pat D 20:38:44 12/15/05 (4)

Then where's the positive DBT? - mkuller 10:47:08 12/16/05 (3)

Re: Then where's the positive DBT? - Pat D 12:07:06 12/16/05 (2)

Sensitivity data... - mkuller 13:44:04 12/16/05 (1)

Re: Sensitivity data... - Pat D 11:38:56 12/17/05 (0)

Re: Your character attack on blind audition participants and disjointed "logic" are amazing! - Brian Cheney 09:46:27 12/15/05 (6)

He considers many blind audition participants to be "deaf listners" -- so please provide a similar lecture to him - Richard BassNut Greene 10:31:51 12/15/05 (5)

Re: He considers many blind audition participants to be "deaf listners" -- so please provide a similar lecture to him - Brian Cheney 10:40:34 12/15/05 (4)

"I suspect the Bored is currently deliberating your continued existence here" - Richard BassNut Greene 11:04:20 12/15/05 (3)

I shall be your campaign manager for your continued presence - kerr 11:20:35 12/15/05 (2)

My campaign slogan: "You're in a mess if you don't blind test." - Richard BassNut Greene 11:38:41 12/15/05 (1)

Or... "Because who else could dance to test tones?" - kerr 12:50:12 12/15/05 (0)

They never re-test the good ones, after a cull, do they? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:15:35 12/15/05 (1)

Never is a long time. - Pat D 12:30:38 12/16/05 (0)

Richard - here's to giving it a try - EGeddes 14:39:31 12/14/05 (10)

"One in Ten" is a good reggae song by UB40 -- all audiophiles are in the Top 10%, except those in the Top 1% - Richard BassNut Greene 09:45:21 12/15/05 (9)

I love your posts - EGeddes 11:01:56 12/15/05 (8)

uh Dad ...... I can no longer afford to keep sending you $10 cash money for each complimentary post ... - Richard BassNut Greene 11:14:43 12/15/05 (5)

Question - EGeddes 12:08:24 12/15/05 (4)

In Stereophile's blind amp test 62% of trials where an amp was compared with itself "sounded different" - Richard BassNut Greene 09:45:40 12/16/05 (0)

Here's the link. - Pat D 16:35:01 12/15/05 (2)

Thanks - EGeddes 19:24:56 12/15/05 (1)

Re: Thanks - Pat D 19:50:48 12/15/05 (0)

Jealous - kerr 11:09:14 12/15/05 (1)

Not bad, however competing for affections with the 1st borne is futile. (nt) - soulfood 12:04:34 12/15/05 (0)

Re: The arguments are not about measurements or science: They are about audio beliefs versus audio reality - Brian Cheney 10:56:05 12/14/05 (11)

The post is a classic golden ear non sequitur - no test is ever good enough unless it has the results you expected ! - Richard BassNut Greene 14:33:08 12/14/05 (9)

Is that why you're so enamored of DBT's? - kerr 15:56:18 12/14/05 (2)

Now that's a funny post -- I'll have to put on my "thinking cap" to respond - Richard BassNut Greene 10:40:01 12/15/05 (1)

Dang it! - kerr 11:02:14 12/15/05 (0)

Re: The post is a classic golden ear non sequitur - no test is ever good enough unless it has the results you expected ! - Brian Cheney 15:18:55 12/14/05 (5)

Okay Cheney this time I'm taking off the gloves and charging to the center of the ring ... - Richard BassNut Greene 10:57:36 12/15/05 (4)

Re: Okay Cheney this time I'm taking off the gloves and charging to the center of the ring ... - Brian Cheney 11:29:16 12/15/05 (3)

I can't compete with this - kerr 12:55:57 12/15/05 (0)

An amusing and well written post, or maybe I need new glasses ... leading me to the most obvious question ... - Richard BassNut Greene 11:49:45 12/15/05 (1)

Re: An amusing and well written post, or maybe I need new glasses ... leading me to the most obvious question ... - Brian Cheney 15:28:12 12/15/05 (0)

Re: The arguments are not about measurements or science: They are about audio beliefs versus audio reality - Todd Krieger 13:51:04 12/14/05 (0)

It's all art. - njjohn 08:17:26 12/14/05 (14)

Music is art, reproduction is science - EGeddes 14:41:01 12/14/05 (9)

Music is art and ... - mkuller 19:21:09 12/15/05 (2)

Ahh Yea! - EGeddes 19:41:20 12/15/05 (1)

I would say... - kerr 07:16:20 12/16/05 (0)

Re: Music is art, reproduction is science - tcain 16:54:37 12/14/05 (1)

Yes, but who's listening? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:19:24 12/15/05 (0)

Reproduction (transmission line) is not the end product (audio). (nt) - soulfood 16:32:26 12/14/05 (2)

Re: What is the end product, then, if I may ask? * - Guy 21:34:41 12/14/05 (1)

Audio! The possible inference being, audio is singularly, a myopic view of science. (nt) - soulfood 08:15:46 12/15/05 (0)

Re: Music is art, reproduction is science - Brian Cheney 15:26:42 12/14/05 (0)

Re: It's all art. - andy19191 09:41:07 12/14/05 (3)

Re: It's all art. - kerr 16:19:24 12/14/05 (2)

Re: It's all art. - andy19191 09:02:57 12/16/05 (1)

Re: It's all art. - kerr 09:31:53 12/17/05 (0)

"To the things themselves" - hartwerger 08:05:18 12/14/05 (10)

"The objective audiophile is one who describes experience through scientific measurements." Would that were true! - clarkjohnsen 09:34:21 12/14/05 (9)

For clarification - hartwerger 14:15:13 12/14/05 (8)

"Not to stray into epistimology..." I was with you until that! Hey, why not stray? - clarkjohnsen 08:46:03 12/15/05 (7)

I see your point - hartwerger 12:29:36 12/15/05 (6)

Yeah, plus I had meant to make that "other" point myself. Thanks! By the way... - clarkjohnsen 14:28:39 12/15/05 (5)

No. What is Personal Knowledge? -nt- - hartwerger 04:18:17 12/16/05 (4)

Re: No. What is Personal Knowledge? -nt- - clarkjohnsen 09:11:57 12/16/05 (3)

Another Michael Polanyi fan here. Read the book years ago. Excellent! (nt) - vacuous 16:57:47 12/16/05 (0)

Thank you - hartwerger 12:11:12 12/16/05 (1)

Re: Thank you - clarkjohnsen 12:18:22 12/16/05 (0)

Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - Magpie 08:04:50 12/14/05 (0)

The Adequacy of Measurements in Audio Performance - Todd Krieger 07:15:10 12/14/05 (2)

Re: The Adequacy of Measurements in Audio Performance - andy19191 09:57:02 12/14/05 (0)

Very true - kerr 09:23:12 12/14/05 (0)

Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - Soundmind 06:20:15 12/14/05 (0)

It is what it is.... - Audiopolous 05:52:54 12/14/05 (0)

Look at the language of subjectivist audio. - vacuous 04:23:02 12/14/05 (3)

My wife has two terms subjective terms... - John B 11:46:34 12/14/05 (0)

Other sense domains too borrow the language of other sense domains. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:40:06 12/14/05 (0)

Re: Look at the language of subjectivist audio. - gymwear5@hotmail.com 07:35:57 12/14/05 (0)

even a slight flash of the eyes over your post... - dave c 03:31:00 12/14/05 (1)

I agree, I was trying to be unbiased. - Saul P 14:17:16 12/14/05 (0)

attempts at unification... - Tom Schuman 02:29:10 12/14/05 (1)

Re: attempts at unification... - rocky raccoon 04:19:58 12/14/05 (0)

Follow Ups

I suppose, but where do the arguments come from then? - Saul P 14:21:36 12/14/05 (1)

Re: I agree, I don't quite see the connection. [NT] - Guy 23:42:26 12/14/05 (0)