|
General Asylum General audio topics that don't fit into specific categories. |
|
|
|
General Asylum General audio topics that don't fit into specific categories. |
|
In Reply to: The Adequacy of Measurements in Audio Performance posted by Todd Krieger on December 14, 2005 at 07:15:10:
>There are some who claim to be "for science" in audio discussion, but real scientists are *never* satisfied with the current methods of observation and quality of data (measurements).... For real science involves the constant pursuit of improved observation and data. Such improvement is essential for better-understanding how things work. And such improvement may either help explain or further challenge our subjective perception.<Real scientists will not state unequivocally that we know all there is to know about measuring anything. They are all willing to leave that door ajar. The problem is that audio isn't cancer reasearch - not enough call for better measurements to explain what we hear. Instead, it's written off by the pseudo-scientists as placebo - a nice trick that really means they don't know and don't care enough to find out. They offer us uncalibrated "objective" tests to further their unproven claim. We offer potentially biased sighted listening experiences to further ours. Hence, the argument becomes circular and makes for occasionally interesting prose only.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - Saul P 23:46:17 12/13/05 (208)
- Philosopher? Okay, answer this: How many angels can dance on the head of my stylus? - Spinner 11:36:23 12/21/05 (0)
- Are you a philosopher? - Pat D 19:22:36 12/15/05 (0)
- Don't kid yourself -- Science isn't remotely at the level of philosophy... - RGA 15:35:57 12/15/05 (2)
- I think science is one of the few fields not entirely tainted by capitalism. - Saul P 20:09:53 12/15/05 (1)
- Not entirely, but 98% tainted is still pretty close. :0) [nt] - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 09:03:34 12/19/05 (0)
- From a piscatorial perspective - Troutbum 10:14:26 12/15/05 (1)
- Which version of the Trout Quintet I would think might - musetap 11:07:24 12/15/05 (0)
- Take figure skating for example. - Presto 10:02:13 12/15/05 (2)
- Both subjective AND objective processes are used in the figure skating. - Saul P 20:05:22 12/15/05 (1)
- Funny thing about figure skating scores... - Presto 22:29:09 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 10:01:12 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - Woofer15 09:03:02 12/15/05 (0)
- Didn't take you long to figure out how - kavakidd 19:00:47 12/14/05 (2)
- This is the first post I've EVER had that had more than, say, 3 responses. - Saul P 20:00:14 12/15/05 (0)
- It really doesn't take much, does it? Pavlov' dogs come to mind...N/T - musetap 20:06:19 12/14/05 (0)
- Objective vs. subjective not the point. You can measure better than you have can hear. - jsm 14:23:32 12/14/05 (10)
- I Could Not Disagree More.... - Todd Krieger 21:55:29 12/14/05 (5)
- I have never seen anyone so completely misunderstand what I written!!! - jsm 11:59:31 12/15/05 (2)
- Long Posts and Sarcasm..... - Todd Krieger 17:30:04 12/15/05 (1)
- I give up. There was zero sarcasm in my original post. - jsm 11:22:36 12/16/05 (0)
- John Atkinson has written the same thing. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:54:23 12/15/05 (0)
- Todd, the poster might argue your instrumentation was not sensitive enough * - Guy 23:40:34 12/14/05 (0)
- Measureable or Not? - Sommovigo 21:35:53 12/14/05 (2)
- Thanks for an excellent post!...N/T - musetap 11:14:36 12/15/05 (0)
- This is all EXACTLY RIGHT. Read it, EVERYONE. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:56:47 12/15/05 (0)
- I agree. My father is a high-energy physicist. - Saul P 16:35:27 12/14/05 (0)
- This topic must mean that too many have too much time on their hands - Norm 13:49:21 12/14/05 (3)
- True, I'm guilty- it being a slow day at work...You're right & that IS the question of interest...N/T. - musetap 16:06:11 12/14/05 (0)
- Re: This topic must mean that too many have too much time on their hands - andy19191 15:48:36 12/14/05 (1)
- I should add "technical audio knowledge" to the rhetoric. Again no one will be convinced. nt - Norm 16:22:03 12/14/05 (0)
- Audio philosophy... - mkuller 11:26:28 12/14/05 (37)
- Good point Mike - let me go a little further - - kavakidd 19:04:47 12/14/05 (0)
- Re: Audio philosophy... - andy19191 14:59:35 12/14/05 (8)
- Validation - David Aiken 16:58:59 12/15/05 (7)
- Re: Validation - andy19191 18:09:56 12/15/05 (6)
- au contraire… - David Aiken 23:08:20 12/15/05 (5)
- Re: au contraire… - andy19191 06:51:56 12/16/05 (4)
- Validation… - mkuller 09:44:33 12/16/05 (3)
- Re: Validation… - andy19191 11:51:34 12/16/05 (2)
- Re: Validation… - mkuller 13:31:54 12/16/05 (1)
- Re: Validation… - andy19191 15:19:01 12/16/05 (1)
- Re: Audio philosophy... - Roscoe East 14:23:05 12/14/05 (26)
- Re: Audio philosophy... - David Aiken 22:19:44 12/14/05 (13)
- "[Using] a particular type of test protocol such as DBT/ABX does not guarantee that you have a good test design." YES!! - clarkjohnsen 09:02:19 12/15/05 (12)
- Not using a similar protocol will guarantee it's a bad design, though. (nt) - Pat D 08:50:29 12/16/05 (11)
- Why? - David Aiken 19:44:50 12/16/05 (8)
- They're not gonna listen to you. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:29:57 12/17/05 (0)
- Even for speakers, blind is best. - Pat D 22:04:56 12/16/05 (6)
- Re: Even for speakers, blind is best. - David Aiken 23:16:13 12/16/05 (5)
- You're so right, but they're still not gonna listen. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:30:40 12/17/05 (4)
- Re: You're so right, but they're still not gonna listen. nt - Pat D 10:06:50 12/19/05 (3)
- Comments (lengthy) - David Aiken 15:45:24 12/19/05 (0)
- "It still remains that sighted listening is less reliable than controlled DBTs." That's an assertion; or is there proof? - clarkjohnsen 13:46:43 12/19/05 (1)
- Re: "It still remains that sighted listening is less reliable than controlled DBTs." That's an assertion; or is there pr - Pat D 16:34:48 12/19/05 (0)
- And your proof is...? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:04:38 12/16/05 (1)
- And your "proof" for ANYTHING you write about audio is ..... I guess it is missing -- proof is never required for you - Richard BassNut Greene 08:54:38 12/17/05 (0)
- But don't we *want* to be able to measure what we hear? - Saul P 16:18:51 12/14/05 (11)
- Actually - I don't think many are looking for common ground - kavakidd 21:33:01 12/14/05 (1)
- Common ground - kerr 04:58:10 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: But don't we *want* to be able to measure what we hear? - john curl 16:50:13 12/14/05 (8)
- Re: But don't we *want* to be able to measure what we hear? - Soundmind 04:50:02 12/15/05 (7)
- "Otherwise you will bang your head against the same wall for the rest of your life.Believe me, it isn't going to budge." - bjh 09:53:26 12/15/05 (6)
- Re: "Otherwise you will bang your head against the same wall for the rest of your life.Believe me, it isn't going to bud - Soundmind 13:26:00 12/15/05 (5)
- No doubt, it follows from the preponderance of manure. nt - bjh 14:34:26 12/15/05 (3)
- That would be the advertising of all the me too equipment - Soundmind 15:57:57 12/15/05 (2)
- Let me offer some advice ... lay off the juice before posting. Thanks in advance, Cheers. nt - bjh 16:20:54 12/15/05 (1)
- And you...get a life nt - Soundmind 16:59:40 12/15/05 (0)
- If the grass is greener... - mkuller 13:59:04 12/15/05 (0)
- False dilemma. - Al Sekela 10:35:22 12/14/05 (16)
- I suppose, but where do the arguments come from then? - Saul P 14:21:36 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: I agree, I don't quite see the connection. [NT] - Guy 23:42:26 12/14/05 (0)
- Straw man - Silver Eared John 11:26:09 12/14/05 (12)
- Contiuously revised because scientists used faulty data - lancelot 13:04:34 12/14/05 (3)
- All science is provisional - Silver Eared John 15:32:08 12/14/05 (0)
- Re: Contiuously revised because scientists used faulty data - andy19191 14:02:39 12/14/05 (1)
- The point I was trying to make - lancelot 16:04:21 12/14/05 (0)
- Practitioners of Scientism - Al Sekela 11:48:44 12/14/05 (7)
- This Kheper person seems confused... - andy_c 20:34:22 12/14/05 (0)
- Y'all got an issue with "provisional"? - Silver Eared John 15:34:08 12/14/05 (4)
- No, but you seem to have a problem with comprehension. - Al Sekela 08:59:52 12/15/05 (0)
- If I may... - kerr 16:00:40 12/14/05 (2)
- Y'all have to show it exists, yes? - Silver Eared John 16:25:44 12/14/05 (1)
- Curious about something - kerr 05:07:43 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: Practitioners of Scientism - kerr 12:15:50 12/14/05 (0)
- Brilliant!! Astute!!... ('nuff said so N/T) - musetap 11:09:11 12/14/05 (0)
- Synergy: The right amount of ingredients in the bread dough. - musetap 10:29:02 12/14/05 (8)
- Then try changing the brand of flour -- still four level cups, but man, the difference! nt - clarkjohnsen 09:23:35 12/15/05 (0)
- This is beautifully stated. - Saul P 16:14:19 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: This is beautifully stated. - musetap 20:30:09 12/14/05 (0)
- Re: Synergy: The right amount of ingredients in the bread dough. - andy19191 12:32:44 12/14/05 (3)
- most cooks... - dave c 14:45:05 12/14/05 (0)
- Most educated, civilised people have no problem accepting people of other persuasions since it makes... - musetap 13:42:55 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: Most educated, civilised people have no problem accepting people of other persuasions since it makes... - andy_c 21:15:05 12/14/05 (0)
- "Science is certainly important, but not always. Art is always important." YES!! nt - clarkjohnsen 11:03:20 12/14/05 (0)
- I see this as the crux of the problem: is synergy really measurable? - Robert Hamel 10:00:15 12/14/05 (1)
- But a conundrum to me is that a "state of mind" is a physical thing. - Saul P 16:05:30 12/14/05 (0)
- We should go back to the good old days when "science" was known as "natural philosophy". nt - clarkjohnsen 09:35:16 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: It's not 'natural' today. * - Guy 21:24:28 12/14/05 (0)
- Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - andy19191 09:18:30 12/14/05 (4)
- This is one of the cool things about audio. - Saul P 16:02:41 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: It was described many moons ago,... - theaudiohobby 08:40:12 12/15/05 (0)
- What about non-linear deviations? (nt) - mkuller 11:11:38 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: What about non-linear deviations? (nt) - andy19191 11:28:00 12/14/05 (0)
- An inmate's perspective on a couple of points - soulfood 09:08:16 12/14/05 (2)
- Do I understand you? - Saul P 15:59:11 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: Do I understand you? - soulfood 16:46:25 12/14/05 (0)
- With all due respect ... - bjh 08:40:04 12/14/05 (14)
- Re: With all due respect ...what you're congenitally incapable of * - Guy 23:46:17 12/14/05 (0)
- Not a difficult question at all - PabloP 21:44:19 12/14/05 (1)
- I see ... - bjh 05:27:38 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: With all due respect ... - andy19191 09:24:42 12/14/05 (10)
- Your "experince" LOL! That's a good one! Your type avoids "experience" like the plague. Anyway, thanks for the laugh. nt - bjh 10:21:50 12/14/05 (9)
- Re: Your "experince" LOL! That's a good one! Your type avoids "experience" like the plague. Anyway, thanks for the laugh - andy19191 11:14:54 12/14/05 (8)
- Re: Andy, just ignore the imposter. * - Guy 23:47:09 12/14/05 (0)
- "Reliable" references - kerr 12:22:32 12/14/05 (6)
- Re: "Reliable" references - andy19191 13:28:23 12/14/05 (5)
- Re: "Reliable" references - kerr 15:36:00 12/14/05 (2)
- "One of us needs to get out more!" Thas' funny, man. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:12:08 12/15/05 (1)
- Well, I didn't specify which one of us! (nt) - kerr 11:10:31 12/15/05 (0)
- Is this you? - mkuller 13:49:12 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: Is this you? - andy19191 16:28:17 12/14/05 (0)
- The arguments are not about measurements or science: They are about audio beliefs versus audio reality - Richard BassNut Greene 08:29:23 12/14/05 (46)
- No, it's about the 10%... - Rod M 18:28:00 12/14/05 (22)
- Your character attack on blind audition participants and disjointed "logic" are amazing! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:22:53 12/15/05 (19)
- Did you bother to read EGeddes post? - Rod M 09:53:51 12/15/05 (11)
- I responded to the Geddes post 8 minutes before you posted this ! - Richard BassNut Greene 10:18:57 12/15/05 (10)
- You're the only expanding definitions... - Rod M 16:58:12 12/15/05 (9)
- In summary: Your ears are superior (with no proof).. while audiophiles in blind auditions are fools (with no evidence) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:17:06 12/16/05 (3)
- Will you ever answer the question? - Rod M 19:12:01 12/16/05 (0)
- Why oh why.... - mkuller 10:39:00 12/16/05 (1)
- mkuller should be very delighted to know he is now OFF my "Don't take this poster seriously" list . - Richard BassNut Greene 14:38:47 12/16/05 (1)
- Re: You're the only expanding definitions... - Pat D 20:38:44 12/15/05 (4)
- Then where's the positive DBT? - mkuller 10:47:08 12/16/05 (3)
- Re: Then where's the positive DBT? - Pat D 12:07:06 12/16/05 (2)
- Sensitivity data... - mkuller 13:44:04 12/16/05 (1)
- Re: Sensitivity data... - Pat D 11:38:56 12/17/05 (0)
- Re: Your character attack on blind audition participants and disjointed "logic" are amazing! - Brian Cheney 09:46:27 12/15/05 (6)
- He considers many blind audition participants to be "deaf listners" -- so please provide a similar lecture to him - Richard BassNut Greene 10:31:51 12/15/05 (5)
- Re: He considers many blind audition participants to be "deaf listners" -- so please provide a similar lecture to him - Brian Cheney 10:40:34 12/15/05 (4)
- "I suspect the Bored is currently deliberating your continued existence here" - Richard BassNut Greene 11:04:20 12/15/05 (3)
- I shall be your campaign manager for your continued presence - kerr 11:20:35 12/15/05 (2)
- My campaign slogan: "You're in a mess if you don't blind test." - Richard BassNut Greene 11:38:41 12/15/05 (1)
- Or... "Because who else could dance to test tones?" - kerr 12:50:12 12/15/05 (0)
- They never re-test the good ones, after a cull, do they? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:15:35 12/15/05 (1)
- Never is a long time. - Pat D 12:30:38 12/16/05 (0)
- Richard - here's to giving it a try - EGeddes 14:39:31 12/14/05 (10)
- "One in Ten" is a good reggae song by UB40 -- all audiophiles are in the Top 10%, except those in the Top 1% - Richard BassNut Greene 09:45:21 12/15/05 (9)
- I love your posts - EGeddes 11:01:56 12/15/05 (8)
- uh Dad ...... I can no longer afford to keep sending you $10 cash money for each complimentary post ... - Richard BassNut Greene 11:14:43 12/15/05 (5)
- Question - EGeddes 12:08:24 12/15/05 (4)
- In Stereophile's blind amp test 62% of trials where an amp was compared with itself "sounded different" - Richard BassNut Greene 09:45:40 12/16/05 (0)
- Here's the link. - Pat D 16:35:01 12/15/05 (2)
- Thanks - EGeddes 19:24:56 12/15/05 (1)
- Re: Thanks - Pat D 19:50:48 12/15/05 (0)
- Jealous - kerr 11:09:14 12/15/05 (1)
- Not bad, however competing for affections with the 1st borne is futile. (nt) - soulfood 12:04:34 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: The arguments are not about measurements or science: They are about audio beliefs versus audio reality - Brian Cheney 10:56:05 12/14/05 (11)
- The post is a classic golden ear non sequitur - no test is ever good enough unless it has the results you expected ! - Richard BassNut Greene 14:33:08 12/14/05 (9)
- Is that why you're so enamored of DBT's? - kerr 15:56:18 12/14/05 (2)
- Now that's a funny post -- I'll have to put on my "thinking cap" to respond - Richard BassNut Greene 10:40:01 12/15/05 (1)
- Dang it! - kerr 11:02:14 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: The post is a classic golden ear non sequitur - no test is ever good enough unless it has the results you expected ! - Brian Cheney 15:18:55 12/14/05 (5)
- Okay Cheney this time I'm taking off the gloves and charging to the center of the ring ... - Richard BassNut Greene 10:57:36 12/15/05 (4)
- Re: Okay Cheney this time I'm taking off the gloves and charging to the center of the ring ... - Brian Cheney 11:29:16 12/15/05 (3)
- I can't compete with this - kerr 12:55:57 12/15/05 (0)
- An amusing and well written post, or maybe I need new glasses ... leading me to the most obvious question ... - Richard BassNut Greene 11:49:45 12/15/05 (1)
- Re: An amusing and well written post, or maybe I need new glasses ... leading me to the most obvious question ... - Brian Cheney 15:28:12 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: The arguments are not about measurements or science: They are about audio beliefs versus audio reality - Todd Krieger 13:51:04 12/14/05 (0)
- It's all art. - njjohn 08:17:26 12/14/05 (14)
- Music is art, reproduction is science - EGeddes 14:41:01 12/14/05 (9)
- Music is art and ... - mkuller 19:21:09 12/15/05 (2)
- Ahh Yea! - EGeddes 19:41:20 12/15/05 (1)
- I would say... - kerr 07:16:20 12/16/05 (0)
- Re: Music is art, reproduction is science - tcain 16:54:37 12/14/05 (1)
- Yes, but who's listening? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:19:24 12/15/05 (0)
- Reproduction (transmission line) is not the end product (audio). (nt) - soulfood 16:32:26 12/14/05 (2)
- Re: What is the end product, then, if I may ask? * - Guy 21:34:41 12/14/05 (1)
- Audio! The possible inference being, audio is singularly, a myopic view of science. (nt) - soulfood 08:15:46 12/15/05 (0)
- Re: Music is art, reproduction is science - Brian Cheney 15:26:42 12/14/05 (0)
- Re: It's all art. - andy19191 09:41:07 12/14/05 (3)
- Re: It's all art. - kerr 16:19:24 12/14/05 (2)
- Re: It's all art. - andy19191 09:02:57 12/16/05 (1)
- Re: It's all art. - kerr 09:31:53 12/17/05 (0)
- "To the things themselves" - hartwerger 08:05:18 12/14/05 (10)
- "The objective audiophile is one who describes experience through scientific measurements." Would that were true! - clarkjohnsen 09:34:21 12/14/05 (9)
- For clarification - hartwerger 14:15:13 12/14/05 (8)
- "Not to stray into epistimology..." I was with you until that! Hey, why not stray? - clarkjohnsen 08:46:03 12/15/05 (7)
- I see your point - hartwerger 12:29:36 12/15/05 (6)
- Yeah, plus I had meant to make that "other" point myself. Thanks! By the way... - clarkjohnsen 14:28:39 12/15/05 (5)
- No. What is Personal Knowledge? -nt- - hartwerger 04:18:17 12/16/05 (4)
- Re: No. What is Personal Knowledge? -nt- - clarkjohnsen 09:11:57 12/16/05 (3)
- Another Michael Polanyi fan here. Read the book years ago. Excellent! (nt) - vacuous 16:57:47 12/16/05 (0)
- Thank you - hartwerger 12:11:12 12/16/05 (1)
- Re: Thank you - clarkjohnsen 12:18:22 12/16/05 (0)
- Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - Magpie 08:04:50 12/14/05 (0)
- The Adequacy of Measurements in Audio Performance - Todd Krieger 07:15:10 12/14/05 (2)
- Re: The Adequacy of Measurements in Audio Performance - andy19191 09:57:02 12/14/05 (0)
- Very true - kerr 09:23:12 12/14/05 (0)
- Re: A philosopher's perspective on this forum: - Soundmind 06:20:15 12/14/05 (0)
- It is what it is.... - Audiopolous 05:52:54 12/14/05 (0)
- Look at the language of subjectivist audio. - vacuous 04:23:02 12/14/05 (3)
- My wife has two terms subjective terms... - John B 11:46:34 12/14/05 (0)
- Other sense domains too borrow the language of other sense domains. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:40:06 12/14/05 (0)
- Re: Look at the language of subjectivist audio. - gymwear5@hotmail.com 07:35:57 12/14/05 (0)
- even a slight flash of the eyes over your post... - dave c 03:31:00 12/14/05 (1)
- I agree, I was trying to be unbiased. - Saul P 14:17:16 12/14/05 (0)
- attempts at unification... - Tom Schuman 02:29:10 12/14/05 (1)
- Re: attempts at unification... - rocky raccoon 04:19:58 12/14/05 (0)
Follow Ups
- Very true - kerr 09:23:12 12/14/05 (0)
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
