one horn allowed

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 10, 2012 at 04:01:15
amioutaline?	Depends on the crossover slope and throat size but up and away from the vocal range, 800 to 1600 Hz.

Synergy, posted on June 10, 2012 at 04:21:35
djk Manufacturer Posts: 6135 Joined: June 17, 2000	A 100+ dB Synergy horn from 150hz and up, on to of one of my PPSL woofers (of course).

hard to believe, posted on June 10, 2012 at 05:23:29
el`Ol Audiophile Posts: 137 Location: Bavarian Forest Joined: May 1, 2006	Does the Synergy really work as a horn from 150 Hz up? Or is it rather a pure bandpass below 1000 Hz?

RE: hard to believe, posted on June 10, 2012 at 05:45:25

tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 9188
Joined: July 4, 2002

If you mean where does the horn begin to provide gain over the direct radiating case, that depends on which one you mean.

A Synergy horn like an SH-50 exhibits gain beginning around 100Hz.
Unlike most loudspeakers with a crossover, the frequency ranges in a Synergy horn combine without the traditional phase shift (time shift).

They sum well enough such that even when you put your head inside the horn mouth, you cannot hear there is more than one driver and an SH-50 can reproduce a square wave over more than a decade wide band, spanning both crossovers.
What radiates appears to be one source in time and space (as if it were a single wide band driver) and does not produce a polar pattern of lobes and nulls (an interference pattern) like normal multi way loudspeakers.

It is a much much more complicated system to design than a direct radiator but it does work.
Best,
Tom

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 10, 2012 at 07:01:24
Kloss	40hz-20khz I would use a giant conical with a coaxial driver oh I already did that.

RE: hard to believe, posted on June 10, 2012 at 07:16:05

djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000

In 1981 I built a pair of of this double 12 design, the same basic horn type that Danley uses, but without the HF drivers.

This design had usable response to 95hz or so, but at 48" was too wide for its intended use.

It did however get people coming up to me and trying to tell me 'that it wasn't on'. Until you got about 4' away and felt you sinus cavities start to ache, then you realized that it was on, and was rotting your face off. The point was that it sounded natural. It was also easy to build.

What I would like to build would be a double 6" with the Synergy principal that would be usable to 200hz or so, and cross at around 300hz or so. I think it only need be about 24" wide to do this.

RE: hard to believe, posted on June 10, 2012 at 08:45:40

drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005

Hello !!

You really should read-up all that is written on Synergy Horns, they are vastly superior, and IMHO most likely "the future".

I have been waiting for someone to offer an affordable DIY project with passive crossovers, for my own home use. Something that is well thought out and well documented, to build without eating into Mr. Danley's patents and his pocket book.

Right now, there seems to be about fifteen brave DIYers building such horns, with wildly differing degrees of understanding, sophistication and repeatability. If you look down in this thread posted below, under the post "Horns & Waveguides/ INDEX of DIY Synergy and Unity Horns" you will see a recent listing of the DIY players, and their efforts to date.

If your audio budget is adequate, by all means, visit a Danley Sound Labs dealer for a demo !!

djk, if you ever come up with something duplicatable, please let me know !! Thanks.

Jeff Medwin

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 10, 2012 at 09:59:22
Saturntube Manufacturer Posts: 331 Location: Austin Joined: April 21, 2006	WE 15a from 100 hz up to 4khz supposedly. But why limit yourself? On a more reasonable level I would use a front horn for the most complicated musical range from 100 hz up to 1 khz.

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 10, 2012 at 11:38:05
claudej1@aol.com Audiophile Posts: 995 Location: Detroit Joined: August 17, 2007	Midrange.........like the K402 from Klipsch Professional Division. Have a pair.......they will got from 300-20K with the right driver and active PEQ.

Would that be a limitation?, posted on June 10, 2012 at 12:17:40

el`Ol
Audiophile

Posts: 137
Location: Bavarian Forest
Joined: May 1, 2006

For domestic use, is it really necessary to have horn dynamics in the frequency range where the human ear is most sensitive, and energy is relatively low, and pay with colorations?
I recently heard an ATC dome and thought, who wants more in the midrange?
Imagine a system with an ATC dome, a RAAL ribbon, a straight bass horn as large as the room can stand and a closed sub.
Most horn lovers who saw such system would intuitively say this is the wrong way round, but is it?

RE: Would that be a limitation?, posted on June 10, 2012 at 15:21:21

Saturntube
Manufacturer

Posts: 331
Location: Austin
Joined: April 21, 2006

I would say 100hz horn is almost as big as a room can stand!
Unless you fold it or not time align them.

WE 15A cannot be time algined to bass and so they seem to use "accesory" bass.
It is alread very complicated to get a bass solution to behave like a horn, lets call it speed: For WE15a it seems the best solution fr Bass is OB:

I understand what you are saying and that is why I didnt say 500hz to 8khz with your typical compression driver or even try to extend it to say 400-300hz.

Likewise, I dont think ATC will match up good to a horn, maybe some nice green cones...

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 10, 2012 at 21:50:32
Wojciech Audiophile Posts: 5414 Joined: June 23, 2009	Midbass/upperbass ..., nothing else sounds as good as horn in this range. I own speaker with ATC dome midrange (Proac EBS ). Yes ,the sound is very transparent and lovely detailed but it's also slightly lacking tone or color which of course makes it great professional tool but at home it may lack a little of human touch.Rgrds, W

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 10, 2012 at 22:31:08
claudej1@aol.com Audiophile Posts: 995 Location: Detroit Joined: August 17, 2007	I guess I'd like to change my answer to a Synergy horn, since it's all in one horn. When I get the cash, I'd like to buy a pair and hear. A pair of SH-60's or 96's with a DTS-10 sub would be the ultimate.

RE: Would that be a limitation?, posted on June 11, 2012 at 21:03:21

claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 995
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007

"Most horn lovers who saw such system would intuitively say this is the wrong way round, but is it?"

I spent some time talking with Klipsch's Chief Engineer in their commercial division about this. He says the BASS is where there is the MOST cone movement. If a cone moves, it distorts. A midrange doesn't move much and a tweeter even less, yet, this is where people put horns first rather than last.

I would say your thinking is correct. I have ALL horns in my system and there is very little coloration in the K402 with the Klispch K1133 driver.

But yes, I have a tapped horn sub from 15-70 and an EQ'd FH-1 with Klipsch woofer from 70-400 Hz. I'm very spoiled by the impact, low group delay, definition and overal "track every note" bass that I get, especially on kick drums.

Danleys Unity Horn of course :), posted on June 12, 2012 at 09:27:16
Pro Sound Guy	.

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 13, 2012 at 05:34:17
Larry I Audiophile Posts: 2266 Location: No. Va. Joined: June 28, 2000	I like various Western Electric midrange horns-15A, 16A, etc. I currently run a Western Electric 713b driver into a 12505 horn. This combination has a rated range of 500 - 15,000 hz, though I use it for 800-8,000 hz (or something like that).

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 15, 2012 at 08:20:23
TubeBuilder	+1 what I thought midbass with coax in it.

RE: one horn allowed, posted on June 30, 2012 at 08:32:16
coolhandjjl Audiophile Posts: 8 Location: Appleton Joined: June 9, 2012	I just received a pair of Dave's Eliptrac 400 as the DIY kit. I'm planing on doing the two-way method using the DE85TN driver. I will be bi-amping using a TDM 24CX-2 Crossover (24db/octave) crossed at 500Hz. The sanding would make for a great winter project, so it may be a while before I report back with results.

RE: one horn allowed, posted on July 18, 2012 at 10:35:55
paulfairall Audiophile Posts: 137 Location: garden of england uk Joined: January 16, 2011	auto tech 200Hz tractrix with BMS 4592 mid driver 350Hz - 2000Hz does it for me in my simplified open box 15" bass, 200Hz tractrix and Raal ribbon speakers. Tri-amped with DEQX PDC 2.6 crossover, a stress free none obsesssive zone of musical pleasure.

RE: one horn allowed, posted on July 18, 2012 at 19:27:04

bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 245
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006

I've posted more or less full plans for a Synergy 3way at diysoundgroup forum. I think they (even in my low cost diy rendition) are fabulous sounding speakers. Tom's Synergy/Unity designs do really "speak with all one voice". If one speaker does it all it would be a Synergy Horn. Unless you need small size!
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

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one horn allowed

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