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In Reply to: Cumulative Effect of Tube Rolling posted by jhorowitz128 on August 31, 2004 at 09:02:46:
if we knew what equipment you had and the tubes it used. For example if you have a bunch chinese driver tubes in assorted gear then yes perhaps it would be best to replace all of them with a decent quality tubes. You don't need to go with ultra-high priced tubes to get good sound.Okay...I just looked and saw you had your equipment listed...nice stuff.
The preamp is reported to have a somewhat lean/neutral sound tilted towards the bright side. So in the end you my be happier with a preamp that uses something like a 6SN7 tube. I find 12AT7's can sound bright and thin. For all of these reasons I strongly encourage you try a GE 5star 6201 in place of the 12AT7's. You should be able to find them for about 10 bucks each. The Sylvania GB6201 is a great tube, about 3 times the price, but a little brighter on the top end...not harsh mind you...a truly lovely top end but for you start with the GE. Do this change first as it might be all you need!
The 12AX7 is used in the other gear. I know the Jolida ships with chinese tubes. Some of the current production russian tubes are rather good. I'd say give the 12ax7lps a try. My favorite was an older, before 2000, Ei 12ax7 but they are on the bright side of normal so try the russian ones. Or treat yourself and try a 50's vintage black plate 12AX7. I think tele's are over rated. I like Mullards the best. But you want to knock off a little top end so try an american vintage black plate.
The KT88's if stock are I think EH's. I like the EH house sound but it does have more "pop up top" and for some might be too aggressive. But a bunch of KT88/KT90/6550's is going to cost a bit so lets see if you can't get by with them for now. The same comments extend to the 12AX7's in the Rouge as in the Jolida.
If you are still using Monster cable that could be a BIG part of the problem. IMHO Kimber PBJ is the cheapest good cable for interconnects. Beldon 89259 isn't bad either. I like the Radio Shack gold line much more than any Monster cable also but they are a tad bright.
I don't see the speakers as a problem at all.
Russ
Follow Ups:
Russ,As you may have guessed, my original post was not purely hypothetical. My "brightness problem" began when I purchased the Rogue Monoblocks a few weeks ago. Keep in mind that it replaced a 20 yr. old Perreaux SS amp that was obviously getting old in the tooth. Evidently, I got used to the Perreaux's sound (listener break-in!) during that time, so the Rogues were somewhat of a revelation. Incredible amp but, oh, that brightness!
At the recommendation of Mark O'Brien at Rogue, I replaced the stock Sovtek 12AX7LPS input tube with RCA long-blackplates. After break-in, everything fell into place....almost, and hence, my original post.
The Jolida: Stock Chinese were replaced with JAN GE 12AX7WA's that Bill Baker from Response Audio sent me. Much better than the Chinese...very listenable, but felt something was missing. Took the Sovteks from the Rogues and put them in the Jolida. That was better, but still.... Since Baker is now recommending the JAN Phillips 12AX7's (GE's not available at agood price anymore), I decided to put them in the Jolida. They sounded better than the LPS's.
Ok, so now where to tweak? Let's try the pre-amp. So I ordered a pair of both the Mullard and SylvaniaGB 6201's. Didn't think of the GE 5 Stars. Also have on order some RCA 12AX7 Long Greyplates that I'd like to try in the Jolida. I hear they're very similar to the blackplates.
Am not going to mess with the Rogue KT88's Like you said, too expensive and Rogue doesn't think that will have as great an effect as the RCA's.
My IC from the pre-amp to the amp is the Tara as well as the speaker cables. Am not about to change the IC's between components. Too confusing, too expensive (to change all), and am not a firm believer
in great differences among IC's (but that's another story).So you seem to have a pretty good feel about this tube business, and as it works out, you are not too far off with your recommendations.
Thanks,
Jeff
warm and romantic. To me that is old unrestored and/or badly engineered stuff. Good tube gear will have highs that are much better than solid state. So IMHO if the highs are more detailed and brighter without causing listening fatigue then I think your ears need to adjust.Actually the interconnects may be more of a factor than you think otherwise I would not of mentioned them. The Radio Shack ones are only about 15 bucks I think.
There is one other "biggie" I would mention. Consider looking into a balanced power transformer Tice not withstanding and also individual isolation transformers for each piece of digital gear.
If you feel some of my tube suggestions have proven to be close to your desired goals then please give thought that my other suggestions might be too even if that presently seems hard to believe:)
How many hours do you have on the equipment? If less than a couple/few months old it may settle in some.
Russ
The highs were more detailed and brighter, but the problem was that they caused a tremendous amount of listener fatigue. I hope this doesn't sound simple-minded, but I use a simple test when listening to new equipment. Namely, I do some reading while listening. If something extraordinary happens, either good or bad (sound-wise), I'll look up and take note. With the original brighness, I couldn't even get back to reading.Have a few hundred hours on the components.
Also, I don't want to make you think that things are absolutely terrible now. Putting the RCA's in the Rogues make listening very pleasurable. Am just looking to fine-tune.
Hmmm. Your replies have me thinking in two directions.One; the guy has put down some serious coin on some newer stereo stuff, maybe moving to tubes for the first time, and isn't used to the profound difference he is hearing in the way better tube gear "demands" your attention and refuses to allow that book a rat's ass chance of holding your attention.
Two; something ain't right.
So: Radio shack had a dB meter....guess they still do....there are some web sites on needed changes. It will give you a baseline. Is it your ears or the equipment/room/etc? Perhaps the answer might be acoustical treatment....who knows(besides a nice oriental rug might score points on WAF). Point is it might be cheaper/faster/etc. to test and find out. If results show a problem you can then decide to test further or address the symptoms. A tone generator, scope, and dummy load resistor along with looking at the dB meter readings in room (using a test CD or tone generator) will pin point equipment problems and let you see if your system doesn't have a flat response.
I know all of this sounds like a lot to go through....and it is...but something seems rather wrong here if you are experiencing listener fatigue. But do be advised that some tube gear grabs you by da balls and demands your attention. On the right music it makes the hairs stand up on your neck, gives you goose bumps, and makes even the most macho men occasionly have to wipe a tear:)
I wish you the best of luck in finding satisfaction with your system.
Russ
"One; the guy has put down some serious coin on some newer stereo stuff, maybe moving to tubes for the first time, and isn't used to the profound difference he is hearing in the way better tube gear "demands" your attention and refuses to allow that book a rat's ass chance of holding your attention."Russ,
I think I may have made myself misunderstood. When I FIRST got the amps, I was truly amazed at the depth, dynamics, quietness, all that really good stuff that is supposed to come with tubes. The difference was astounding...it really was! The "brightness thing," tho, was getting to me. NOW, NOW since I rolled the tubes, the brightness has settled down and I no longer look up from the book in disappointment, but rather in wonder. I am not NOW experiencing listener fatigue. My original post had to do with where to start to fine tune the system.I do own the Radio Shack SPL meter and just for the heck of it, tested the response from my listening position from 250Hz to 10KHz just before this post.
There was no more than a 4db difference thruout that range, the largest difference being a 3db rise at 8KHz.Below is a link to picture of my system (with the old amp). As you can see, room treatment is not too much of an issue.
Just as a side note: The amazing thing about this forum is that folks like you are willing to stick with someone and offer valuable help. That is truly appreciated.
As you said I was just trying to stick with you and help as much as I could. It looks like you made wise choices on what tubes to replace with what. And yes, this asylum is an awesome resource and can save one a lot of time, money, and effort. Occasionally it's hard to tell which advice to take but that's audio for ya.
Russ
Yes, am very happy now:) At least now I have a baseline to do comparisons.
Thanks again Russ
and the third option: some tube gear just sounds crappy with the wrong set of inputs, and surroundings.I'd rather have the PM900 than the MC75's I traded for them. THe Mc's were just plain. The Carver at least had tungsten-carbide balls under its hood. Now I rather still the sack of green I got for the Mc's, which funded some truly awesome stuff.
regards,
Douglas
Are you running the Rogue in Ultra-linear or are you using it in triode? If you are using it in UL I have heard many KT88 amps that can sound a bit bright. Switch to triode and see if that helps.
Yes, am running it in Triode mode. You are correct, UL mode was unacceptable in my situation.
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