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Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany

27.33.131.97
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 21:36:07
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Hello Everyone,

I would like to share my terrible experiences in dealing with Mr Ingmar Drews in Germany, manufacturer of the Odyssey Source Mk V record cleaning machine. In doing so I hope that others will avoid the same financial loss and worry that I have experienced in the past several months.

The story begins back in mid-2010 when a very good friend of mine recommended, in good faith, the Odyssey Source Mk V record cleaning machine as a product for my serious consideration. I was provided with the contact details of the manufacturer, Mr Ingmar Drews in Germany, and I initiated a line of correspondence by email. Since there was no distributor or representative in my country (Australia) I was offered a unit at the local European price (less VAT) plus shipping. At this point all communication was polite and expedient with replies to my questions usually coming within 12-24 hours.

Upon discussing the product with local friends of mine who are involved in both the manufacture as well as distribution of audio products they became interested in offering the Odyssey Source RCM to the Australian and New Zealand markets at a fair price. As such, they initiated a dialogue with Mr Drews and this resulted in an order being placed for four RCMs with the dual brush/fluid pump option. Mr Drews requested full payment in advance and his wishes were met. This was back in late October 2010 and the machines were promised to ship in early December of 2010. Christmas 2010 came and went and communication from Mr Drews rapidly dried up. Attempts to contact him by email were not met with replies and we all feared that he was ill. A phone call managed to get hold of Mr Drews and he apologised profusely for not getting the machines out, citing problems with OEM suppliers and the need to source key parts elsewhere. One can accept this but the lack of communication was certainly poor form. Again days turned into weeks and weeks turned into months but now not only were emails ignored but phone calls also went unanswered.

One day, out of the blue, one of my good friends in Germany made an unrelated enquiry with Mr Drews regarding his Odyssey RCM. He was told that he would have to pay in advance and that the machine would be ready within 6 weeks. Wisely he decided to give it some consideration before pulling the trigger. It was only by chance that he mentioned his thoughts to my other very good friend in Germany (yes, it is a small world), at which point he became aware of our own predicament in dealing with Mr Drews. He then asked me to explain the situation and upon his next dealings with Mr Drews he asked why he had not yet filled the Australian order for four units. To cut a long story short Mr Drews no longer answers phone calls from my friend in Germany. I have since learned that Mr Drews continues to supply completed Odyssey RCMs into his local German market, presumably using our 5 figure payment to fund his acquisition of raw parts. In essence he has stolen from us and has already used that money for other means such as parts inventory, family summer holidays, etc. We are now faced with the prospect of initiating legal action from the other side of the world at a time when everyone here is extremely busy and worried sick given the situation. To add insult to injury I sold my old VPI 16.5 RCM to a friend back in early December in anticipation of receiving the Drews Odyssey Source Mk V RCM and have been without a cleaning machine since. I am reluctant to purchase an alternate product (such as a Loricraft or Keith Monks) until the financial situation with Mr Drews is resolved or he decides to actually supply the product as promised in late 2010.

I have tried countless times to contact Mr Drews and in my last email to him I promised that I would share my negative experiences with every online audio community I could to spare them the potential heartache he has caused me and my friends. He did not reply, so this report is now well overdue.

I am sure you would all agree that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable in any arena and it is certainly not something we wish to see in our niche within a niche hobby of analogue audio playback.

Happy listening to all,

Aaron

 

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RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 26, 2011 at 21:46:04
theJedi
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: September 26, 2011
 If you write an online article about this, it's a good idea to optimize it for search engine results.
I had a problem with doctor and wrote a blog on how he botched my surgery, played games about refunding me and then refused to pay.
I did some basic SEO on my blog and whenever someone looked up that doctor, my blog cam up. Eventually other people who had problems with him found the blog and posted about their bad experiences with him.
The blog become first in all searches on this doctor and his clinic.
A news company found the blog and then did a story on him and his clinic was close to folding.
Anyone who plans on writing about what Drews did, needs include the link to the post, the name of the machine Source Odyssey, Mr Ingmar Drews name and the word fraud and theft. All of these words need to be included in the text at least 12 to 20 times in the article.
That way Google's search bots will spider Inmar Drews name or his record machine with the words "Fraud" and "theft" as keywords and they will end up connected at the top of the searches. Once people click on that link it becomes self perpetuating and will stay at the top of any searches on either Mr Ingmar Drews or his machine.
He may then find it prudent to settle this, rather than risk going out of business.

Do you want to be better at something or do you want to be good?

 

Personally..., posted on September 6, 2011 at 06:48:00
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 I would contact whoever fills the same job that we call the attorney general here in the USA. Each state has an attorney general and their job includes proscuting crimes and investigating fraud. Perhaps their own laws would work in your favor.

If that doesn't work I would ask your German friends if they have the equivalent of a Department of Commerce in Germany. Here in the USA the Dept of Commerce takes a dim view of people who practice fraud. Their point of view includes the execution and continuance of business. The type of behavior that you described should interest them as well...if they exist and can deal with things beyond their borders.

Finally, if none of the above can bring any satisfaction I would write to all appropriate audiophile magazines and see if you can get you story published. Nonething brings about action faster than bad publicity.

Best of luck,
Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 6, 2011 at 01:37:08
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Just to follow up on this. I learned today from Jonathan Monks (son of Keith Monks) in the UK that this is not the first time Mr Drews has conducted himself in this manner. I hope that by sharing my experience on audio forums across the world that it will not happen again in the future.

Regards,
Aaron

 

Disaster with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 6, 2011 at 01:05:31
Stitch
Audiophile

Posts: 736
Location: Camden (New Jersey)
Joined: April 3, 2007
 The Odyssey RCM is based on a improved Keith Monks Design with superior German Parts. Mr. Drews was a Keith Monks Importer in Germany in the 90's (I think). some years ago Keith Monks passed away and none of these RCM were available. Loricraft copied the nozzle System plus one or the other Germany DIY guy but Mr. Drews improved that Design commercially and sold it as Odyssey. It is a well know unit in Germany and a very serious unit. The cleaning result of this machine is unsurpassed, the very best.



It was obvious that Importers or Dealers outside Germany were interested in the Odyssey. I think (I don't know it) their mark ups made the unit more or less unsellable (no one can survive with selling 5 machines per year...). To satisfy all sides he had 2 choices, to sell direct (not easy) or to make the unit cheaper with lousy parts (in comparison) and to hide that with marketing (like all others do).
Well, seems, he is down. Very sad to hear that he even cheated customers and lying to them( He always wanted to have some prepay, so Aaron & friends made nothing wrong (as far as I can comment that). There is no excusion for it. It is criminal. I hope, that you will get back some money, but I have some doubts (empty pockets). It is ok that you write in a Forum how disappointed and angry you are and to protect others for same "experience". All my hope is with you and your friends. Very sad for you enthusiasts who wanted something better than the usual audiophile stuff...


Kind Regards


 

RE: How Not to do Business, posted on September 5, 2011 at 21:49:21
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 3024
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 You say that your associates, "are involved in both the manufacture as well as distribution of audio products" I gather that they are persons in a business of some sort.

Then you write, "Mr Drews requested full payment in advance and his wishes were met. This was back in late October 2010 and the machines were promised to ship in early December of 2010."

This is a terribly naive manner of doing business and I have never before heard of anyone doing business in this way. Not to mention sending substantial money to a person not personally known to you, whom you have never dealt with before and who is 10,000 miles away.

There are plenty of missing parts here, Drew's and others!

The on line audio community has very little experience with or interest in $8000 RCMs. All of its good will won't net you a penny.

Have your good friend in Germany get you a German lawyer, and know that you're not going to get all your money back.

 

RE: How Not to do Business, posted on September 6, 2011 at 01:20:10
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Gee, thanks for the business lesson and words of encouragement, Mel. Mr Drews is well known to me since my friend in Germany has dealt with him before but nobody could have predicted this outcome.

The only lesson that is learned in cases like this is trust no one which means everyone is worse off.

Regards,
Aaron

 

RE: How Not to do Business, posted on September 6, 2011 at 06:42:21
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 3024
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 You NOW write, "Mr Drews is well known to me since my friend in Germany has dealt with him before".

But that's not what you wrote in your initial post, where you wrote only that, "a very good friend of mine recommended, in good faith, the Odyssey Source Mk V record cleaning machine as a product". You didn't write that you knew anyone who had dealt with Drews.

So the story seems to get even more confusing.

A PRUDENT process would have been a small deposit and full payment upon delivery, or shipment, to be verified by one of your many friends in Germany. Drew's insistence upon full payment before any machine was built should have been a warning sign that something was amiss (or that Drews was not financially solvent) and the buyers should have walked away.

You and your associates could have bought a machine on the German market and pay upon delivery (less VAT if you could prove export). Apparently you were looking for a wholesale price on a quantity purchase, rather than a retail transaction, so it was to be a business deal and it had to be handled in a business-like manner.

This is not a CONSUMER complaint of the kind that is ordinarily posted here from time to time.

I don't know what good words of encouragement would do for you. It's time to get real.

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 15:29:26
Monchi
Audiophile

Posts: 576
Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: June 4, 2007
 Like John, I had never heard of this RCM until saw your post. I attend the High End Show in Munich, Germany most years and I have never seen this RCM exhibited there. I have seen other Euro RCMs (German and Austrian, I believe) at the show, Loricraft etc. but not this one.

Is there any point in contacting the High End Society in Germany if only to get some information on this despicable individual? He doesn't seem to be in any financial trouble or anything from what you say so it seems a deliberate act to deprive you of your money, because you are thousands of miles away and unable to take decisive action, such as a personal visit.

This is a little out of character for Germans, I would say? They are usually very honourable people.

 

Re: This is a little out of character for Germans, I would say? They are usually very honourable people., posted on September 5, 2011 at 21:39:04
rindolini
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Munich, Bavaria
Joined: August 9, 2007
 Monchi: Thanks. And in general it's true - but we've got the one or other black sheep, too (just like everywhere else, I'd say).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: Maybe it would be a good idea for the thread starter to post another thread over on Analog-Forum.de...

 

Re: This is a little out of character for Germans, I would say? They are usually very honourable people., posted on September 6, 2011 at 05:31:38
KLechterO78s
Audiophile

Posts: 703
Location: Lake Cumberland, KY
Joined: September 26, 2009
 I agree. I once sold something to a guy in Germany and, as it was my first time shipping internationally...I allowed the FedEx employee to assist me in filling out the paperwork. Big mistake...as they checked the box saying that I would pay the VAT myself instead of the recipient. Long story short, about three weeks after shipping it, I get a bill for $330 from FedEx for the VAT. I pretty much thought "I'm screwed" since the guy in Germany had already received his package. FedEx told me to simply ask him to pay the VAT...and I'm like "yeah, right he's gonna pay extra money even though he's under no obligation"...but in the end, he actually volunteered to pay it. I was shocked...and as much as I hate to say this, things wouldn't have turned out so well if the buyer had been an American.

 

Re: This is a little out of character for Germans, I would say? They are usually very honourable people., posted on September 6, 2011 at 01:17:41
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 That is a good idea Manfred but I am not a member there and I am afraid that much will be lost in a google translation from english to german. I would be happy for one of our german friends to do the honours on my behalf since I feel this would have more impact and hopefully stop the practice of stealing large sums of money under the pretence of taking foreign orders and then happily selling units into the local market.

Regards,
Aaron

 

My suggestions, posted on September 5, 2011 at 08:55:08
Amphissa
Audiophile

Posts: 2717
Location: Zardoz
Joined: March 9, 2004
1. Talk to a law firm in Australia that handles international business law. Since your Australian friends are a business, their legal expenses should be tax deductible (if Aussie law is like US law in these matters). Your Australian law firm should have an office in Germany, who will send Drews a nice letter. The letter can include you as a customer.

Or alternatively,

2. Have your very good friends in Germany identify a good business law firm. Have the firm send him a letter on your behalf. This route should also be tax deductible for your business friends.

Personally, I only make purchases abroad using a credit card. That way, I have an avenue for dispute and the credit card company will deal with it. If a company does not accept credit cards, I walk away.

"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

Were you planning to pay retail to your friends for this item?,,,nt, posted on September 5, 2011 at 08:15:37
Steve Parry
Audiophile

Posts: 2544
Location: No. California
Joined: August 19, 2002
 ,

 

RE: Were you planning to pay retail to your friends for this item?,,,nt, posted on September 5, 2011 at 16:38:50
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Hi Steve,

Not that it is at all relevant to the points I raised in my post, or anyone else's business, but in this instance I would be paying the same for the product as if I dealt direct with Mr Drews. Fair enough since I was the one who identified the product and made the intitial enquiries (purely on my behalf). Thus, apart from amortising freight costs over four units instead of one, there is no real value add here for me. Then again, when you buy anything from most audio retailers in Australia there is little to no value add since most do not keep display stock let alone stock for immediate dispatch and their knowledge of the product or what is possible in audio reproduction more generally leaves much to be desired.

Regards,
Aaron

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 05:48:58
Shane from AUS
Audiophile

Posts: 1669
Location: Sydney
Joined: December 26, 2000
 That is a real PITA Aaron. Sorry to hear of this prick. Stuart and Harry must be pissed as well. It looks like a Monks./Loricraft copy of some sort.

It is getting to be a sad world with the lack of integrity around. I have always had good dealings with hifi, but I am starting to think I have just been lucky.

Does Thomas live close to Drews?

Cheers. Shane

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 16:53:18
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Hi Shane,

Yes, it is a bloody mess thanks to Mr Drews and the guys in Melbourne are certainly pissed off as you might imagine.

As I understand it Thomas does not live close to Mr Drews, otherwise I am sure his imposing physical frame would give the guy the right kind of scare. In the modern world nothing is more intimidating to most than a letter from a solicitor/lawyer and that is the approach one must reluctantly pursue in order to force any kind of result in this instance.

Can you imagine being without your RCM for 10 months and not being able to clean and play any of your new vinyl purchases during that time? The brand new pressings are not a big issue but the used ones from ebay and elsewhere really can use a good spruce up.

Cheers,
Aaron

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 19:49:46
Mercury Boy
 Hi Aaron,

This is a terrible story to read, though I share Laudanum's concerns regarding the SGR website, where the machine remains listed with no hints whatsoever of the troubles outlined in this thread. Perhaps it remains listed in the hope commercial dealings will ultimately go ahead, though if it were me, I probably would have taken it down from the site by now.

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 6, 2011 at 01:15:14
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 You are right, gentlemen. I believe the product is still listed in the hope that a resolution can be reached peacefully and business can be resumed but that is looking highly unlikely at this stage.

Regards,
Aaron

 

Can I suggest, in the light of your unfortunate experience, ..., posted on September 5, 2011 at 19:28:58
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12661
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 that your search this Forum:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/forumdisplay.php/49-Turntables-amp-Vinyl-Discussion

... where, earlier in the year, there was discussion about an NZ RCM. There was a group buy (of about 30), which I participated in. I see you're in Sydney - there were certainly some Sydney people who also bought one, so you should be able to see one in action before deciding to buy one yourself. :-))

Regards,

Andy

 

RE: Can I suggest, in the light of your unfortunate experience, ..., posted on September 6, 2011 at 01:13:28
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Thanks for the very kind suggestion Andy but I am looking for the best possible product for removing the cleaning fluid from my LPs and not the cheapest or something which is inferior to the VPI 16.5 which I sold to a friend back in December of 2010.

Cheers,
Aaron

 

"I am looking for the best possible product for removing the cleaning fluid from my LPs" ..., posted on September 6, 2011 at 02:11:01
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12661
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Hi Aaron,

I'm wondering what your thought process was to come to the conclusion that the NZ RCM is definitively inferior to a VPI 16.5? Just price?
Remember, you have to buy a vacuum cleaner to use the NZ RCM and if you buy, say, a Dyson:
a) you've immediately doubled your cost, and
b) you've got a much better vacuum device than what's in most RCMs - VPI included.

Good luck with your search, anyway.

Andy

 

RE: "I am looking for the best possible product for removing the cleaning fluid from my LPs" ..., posted on September 6, 2011 at 02:17:04
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Hi Andy,

This thread is not about the NZ RCM so I will keep this brief. All vacuum slot/lips style machines are fatally compromised by design. It does not matter what vacuum source you hook up to them (the Dyson is a good vacuum cleaner and ours is now in its 13th year) they will never remove the cleaning fluid as thoroughly as a point-nozzle design (Odyssey, Monks, Loricraft) and they will slowly send you deaf in the process, probably no great loss for most audiophiles anyway.

Cheers,
Aaron

 

All vacuum slot/lips style machines never remove cleaning fluid as thoroughly as a point-nozzle design ..., posted on September 6, 2011 at 02:38:25
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12661
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 I beg to differ. Perhaps you have been reading point-nozzle RCM advertising blurb, rather than experimenting yourself? :-))

I've had a manual Nitty Gritty (slot style) for over 20 years. Now, your comment may well be true for fully automatic RCMs (where you have no control over the suction time) but I can assure you, after 3 slow (manually driven) revolutions of the LP over the Nitty Gritty's suction slot, there is no liquid left in the grooves. If there was ... I would use 4 revolutions! :-))

And if I was writing the advertising blurb for a slot-type RCM, I would say something like: "Having the slot pass over the full groove diameter simultaneously ensures the liquid - with its suspended dirt particles - is vacuumed off at the same time (with the inference being that by the time a point-nozzle RCM reaches the inner grooves, the liquid has evaporated ... which is what you don't want to happen, as this leaves the crud in the grooves!). :-))

Likewise, the NZ RCM is a manual machine.

And yes, the NG right beneath my bent-over head is loud enough for me to wear earmuffs whilst cleaning ... but a Dyson situated a couple of metres away will not be as loud.

Regards,

Andy

 

RE: All vacuum slot/lips style machines never remove cleaning fluid as thoroughly as a point-nozzle design ..., posted on September 9, 2011 at 03:49:05
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Andy, I felt that some clarification was in order here with regards to some of the points you made.

You would never know whether the three slow revolutions of your NG slot-type RCM left the groove completely dry since your eyes are not that good. You can see that the LP is superficially dry. What is more important is that the cleaning fluid containing the suspended or solubilised "dirt" is completely removed from the deepest grooves. The only way to scientifically assess this is with electron micrographs of the grooves both before and after each cleaning methodology. Alternatively, one could subjectively assess the level of surface noise, assuming the groove walls are not already damaged due to a worn stylus or incorrect setup.

I do recall with my VPI 16.5, many times when the slotted vacuum wand would not make uniform contact across the entire surface of the LP if there was even the slightest hint of warping (and that would include most new LPs available today). In these cases the air rapidly rushing through the vacuum slot would cause the solvent component of the cleaning fluid to evaporate leaving the "dirt" behind in the groove.

As for your point relating to evaporation of the cleaning fluid in the time it takes for a point nozzle suction device to track from inner to outer groove I have rarely heard anything quite so ridiculous. In order to effectively solubilise baked on "dirt" in the grooves it is essential that this fluid sit on the LP for an extended period of time. This applies regardless of which machine is used to remove the fluid at the end of the day. Given that most commercial cleaning fluids do not contain alcohol due to problems with international shipping regulations their volatility is a non-issue. Just leave a glass of water out at night and see how much has evaporated at room temperature the next day. While you are at it, do the same experiment with a glass of pure ethanol or isopropanol.

I have purchased used LPs which were allegedly cleaned using a Nitty Gritty machine and if the level of surface noise is anything to go by I would have to doubt either the efficacy of the machine or the user's ability. What I am seeking with a point-nozzle machine is a superior result to that which I could previously obtain with the VPI 16.5. I am not interested in side-ways steps, although this does seem fashionable in audiophile circles.

One point we have not touched on is the contamination of the vacuum slot "lips" following a single use. It gets mighty tedious to clean them with distilled water after every LP side. I had a bit of a solution to this problem with the VPI 16.5 which involved separate vacuum wands for stages one and two of the cleaning cycle. A point-nozzle design always has a clean section of thread between the vacuum opening and the LP surface.

I take issue with your inference that I am influenced by marketing in audio. My choices are motivated only by knowledge, science and the desire to achieve a particular pre-determined result. It is for that very reason that I use a Basis turntable and not a Linn, for example ;-)

Regards,
Aaron

 

RE: All vacuum slot/lips style machines never remove cleaning fluid as thoroughly as a point-nozzle design ..., posted on September 9, 2011 at 04:10:39
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12661
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Love your comment "It is for that very reason that I use a Basis turntable and not a Linn, for example", Aaron. :-))

There are LP12s ... and then (a la Croc Dundee) there are LP12s! :-)) I'm not interested in the absolute cost of each but have you compared your Basis with a top-spec LP12? By which I mean:
* Keel, and
* Radikal PS.

Of course, both decks have to have:
* the same arm
* the same cartridge, and
* the same phono stage,

... to make a valid comparison. :-))

But, yes, I accept your rebuke about the cleaning fluid remaining on the LP. I use a 50:50 IPA mix so evaporation is an issue.

But I disagree with you statement that "You can see that the LP is superficially dry. What is more important is that the cleaning fluid containing the suspended or solubilised "dirt" is completely removed from the deepest grooves".

AFAIAC, the suction force is sufficient to get the grooves dry, if the surface is dry. You would have to show me said "electron micrographs of the grooves both before and after each cleaning methodology" before I would change this belief. But if you can ... I will change, I assure you. :-))

Regards,

Andy

 

RE: All vacuum slot/lips style machines never remove cleaning fluid as thoroughly as a point-nozzle design ..., posted on September 9, 2011 at 04:32:46
Stitch
Audiophile

Posts: 736
Location: Camden (New Jersey)
Joined: April 3, 2007
 ****..have you compared your Basis with a top-spec LP12...****

This is a thread about problems with a Manufacturer who cheated some customers.
But to answer this Question, yes, I did it.
LP12 in the absolute maximum constellation to a Basis Debut vac.
To make the story short, LP12 performance can be rated as acceptable as best. But no more.
What a joke compared to something serious from Design. I did listen to LP12 for more than 15 years in countless demos, LINN Shops, LINN demos. I stopped that now because I want money for my time there.
Some never get it, that is an Audiophile Karma, it has something to do with the ability to understand what is going on. Same with the technical side of RCM's.
For some, even a primitive solution is more they ever need and that is ok. When you spend a horse to a beggar, it is useless, he has no idea what he should do with it.
It is nothing personal, but blubbering is the blood which keep a lot of Audiophiles alive, but sometimes there are some serious threads. It's not for everyone.


Kind Regards


 

Que?? :-)) nt, posted on September 9, 2011 at 04:45:54
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12661
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 .

 

RE: All vacuum slot/lips style machines never remove cleaning fluid as thoroughly as a point-nozzle design ..., posted on September 6, 2011 at 02:56:46
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 As long as you are happy Andy. Don't waste your energy trying to convert me to better sound, I am a lost cause and prefer to be in the minority. Next thing you will be telling me that selling my Basis 2800 and buying a Linn LP-12 will represent an upgrade. I am too stuck in my ways to see good sense my friend.

Cheers,
Aaron

 

It's not a matter of being "happy", mate ..., posted on September 6, 2011 at 03:27:33
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12661
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 The problem, as I see it, is people who cannot see the wood for the trees (and who can't be bothered to experiment, to prove/disprove for themselves what is correct).

If you want the best RCM - go seek out a Keith Monks. :-))

I'm happy with my NG ... and when it wears out, I will try the NZ RCM. :-)) (Which I purchased 3 months ago but not used, yet.)

Regards,

Andy

 

RE: All vacuum slot/lips style machines never remove cleaning fluid as thoroughly as a point-nozzle design ..., posted on September 6, 2011 at 03:04:36
Stitch
Audiophile

Posts: 736
Location: Camden (New Jersey)
Joined: April 3, 2007
 ****...telling me that selling my Basis 2800 and buying a Linn LP-12 will represent an upgrade...****

Without doubt, there are even worse disasters possible in the audiophile World compared to Drews Audio...
This would be one of them :-)

Kind Regards


 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 01:12:23
AlbumAddictED
Audiophile

Posts: 2317
Location: Sacramento CALIFORNIA
Joined: January 3, 2008
 Aaron, my sincere sympathy in this business transaction gone horrifically wrong. How in the world some people can live with themselves while scamming, shamming and shafting honest people out of their hard earned money is beyond me. I could never go through life, as an adult, and more importantly as a MAN and rip people off. It happenes, people steal from the elderly and take a blind man's walking stick if they could make a quick buck off of it.

Surely, Germany must have some sort of BBB or an attorney general, ect. in resolving these matters?

Whether it's a penny or several thousand dollars, nobody deserves to have their money outright stolen from them.

I wish you well in hopefully getting your money back or a complete, working RCM that you ordered in good faith.

Man, I hate theives!

Ed
"Some Folks Need An Education ... Don't Give Up Or We'll Lose The Nation" C. 1970 MARK FARNER of Grand Funk Railroad from "Sin's A Good Man's Brother"

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 04:30:45
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Thanks for the kind post Ed. I only hope that others do not fall into the same predicament, either with this particular fellow or others like him. He has had ample opportunity to do the right thing and everyone has been more than patient with him but there does come a point where enough is enough. Mr Drews will be facing legal action through the German system. I feel sorry for his family in all of this and do wonder what sort of a role model he is providing for his own children. I guess ignorance is bliss for some.

Regards,
Aaron

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 4, 2011 at 23:10:28
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24048
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Sorry to hear about your disaster. I hope you eventually resolve the problem, but it doesn't sound good.

I had never heard of Drew's Audio Odyssey RCM MKV. It must be the most expensive RCM ever at over $5000. I can't imagine how it could clean any better than other machines with more reasonable price tags.

Apparently, SGR Audio handles the Drew's Audio Odyssey RCM MKV in Australia and New Zeland. Are you familiar with SGR Audio?

Good luck in resolving your problem.

John Elison

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 00:07:00
Tao


 
tom port has it on his site for $7500....maybe he throws in a couple of hot stampers :)

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 00:12:57
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Hi Tao,

It is exactly that kind of pricing practice which makes good products unavailable to a much wider but otherwise discerning audience.

Along comes a distributor, here in Australia who wants to do the right thing and add only a very small margin and the stupid manufacturer steals their money, stops all communication and fails to supply the product.

Regards,
Aaron

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 4, 2011 at 23:32:54
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Hi John,

Thanks for your reply. SGR Audio are the friends referred to in my post and the ones who have lost in excess of $10k to Mr Drews so unfortunately no help on that front.

The price you will typically find on the internet for the Odyssey RCM reflects the over inflated dealer markup. In Germany, the Odyssey RCM sells for 2500 Euros including 19% VAT for the two brush/fluid pump model. It would have been similarly priced here in Australia and New Zealand if only the manufacturer had actually supplied the units for which he received a considerable amount of money up-front.

As for whether it cleans better than other lower priced machines, well I believe that like all point-nozzle type machines (Loriscraft and Keith Monks) it does a superior job of removing the cleaning fluid and solubilised/dissolved grease/dirt/fungus/etc therein than ANY vacuum slot-type machine regardless of cost (e.g. Clearaudio double matrix to cite one expensive example).

Regards,
Aaron

 

RE: Disaster in Dealing with Drews Audio in Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 05:26:34
Laudanum
Audiophile

Posts: 1031
Joined: March 1, 2003
 Im not doubting your story in any way and I am sorry that both you and your Dealer friends at SGR are out the money and have been the victims of fraud and theft. But I am curious as to why SGR is still listing the Drews machine for sale on their website. I can imagine the possibility that they may be hoping that keeping the machine listed shows a good faith gesture to Drews audio thus giving him every opportunity to do the right thing and no excuses not to. But I think that's a bit of a stretch. Again, Im very sorry to hear about your nightmare of an experience with Drews.

 

RE: But I am curious as to why SGR is still listing the Drews machine for sale on their website., posted on September 6, 2011 at 06:59:44
Cpk
Audiophile

Posts: 1518
Location: PA
Joined: May 13, 2005
 exactly

 

RE: Fly to Germany, posted on September 5, 2011 at 05:26:27
KLechterO78s
Audiophile

Posts: 703
Location: Lake Cumberland, KY
Joined: September 26, 2009
 It'd be cheaper and much faster to fly to Germany and pay the guy a "personal visit" to discuss your grievances. An email from another country 10,000 or more miles away is ignorable...while a knock on the door from a flesh-and-blood human is something that cannot be ignored.

 

A knock on the door from a lawyer might be even more effective, posted on September 5, 2011 at 07:35:57
Paully
Audiophile

Posts: 5911
Location: West Virginia
Joined: February 15, 2004
 Maybe not cost effective but sometimes its worth the money just to force compliance. Of course a knock on the door from a large man with a Jersey accent can have an even bigger effect but its tough getting those guys to fly to Germany.

 

RE: A knock on the door from a lawyer might be even more effective, posted on September 5, 2011 at 08:08:46
zako
Audiophile

Posts: 935
Location: Mo.
Joined: March 29, 2004
 A KNOCK ON THE DOOR IS NOW WARRENTED,,,I LOVE THE SOUND OF CRACKING BONES..THAT WOULD CLEAN HIS DECK

 

RE: A knock on the door from a lawyer might be even more effective, posted on September 5, 2011 at 08:04:57
Fred J
Audiophile

Posts: 21808
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Sounds like an ass kicking is definitely in order here, doubtless cheaper than a Lawyer

 

Hey Ferd, how 'bout sending your cousins Guido and Carmine? /nt\, posted on September 5, 2011 at 10:17:44
Opus 104

 

RE: Hey Ferd, how 'bout sending your cousins Guido and Carmine? /nt\, posted on September 5, 2011 at 10:33:35
Fred J
Audiophile

Posts: 21808
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Great minds think along the same lines ;-)

All kidding aside when someone deliberately reams me like that I
look upon it as they're thinking they can punk me out, it seems obvious this
individual hasn't fallen on hard times, but simply assumes the buyer in Australia
has no recourse, a definitive " Fuck you very much " deal.
Under these circumstances I'd get in touch with the German riders that spent last summer with our club, and have them give the bastard an attention getting tune up.

 

RE: Mail him a dead fish nt, posted on September 5, 2011 at 11:13:16
KLechterO78s
Audiophile

Posts: 703
Location: Lake Cumberland, KY
Joined: September 26, 2009

 

RE: Mail him a dead fish nt, posted on September 5, 2011 at 16:48:01
DrAJReynolds
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Joined: July 5, 2004
 Thanks for the vote of support and the suggestions gentlemen. I will not let the matter rest and if it comes to it then a visit to Germany will be in order.

I do feel that legal intervention will have the desired effect at the end of the day. I guess I am more disappointed that Mr Drews did not make use of the ample opportunities afforded to him to do the right thing.

Regards,
Aaron

 

RE: A knock on the door from a lawyer might be even more effective, posted on September 5, 2011 at 08:21:33
KLechterO78s
Audiophile

Posts: 703
Location: Lake Cumberland, KY
Joined: September 26, 2009
 LoL everyone. I wasn't advocating violence...then again, I wasn't discouraging it either. A good old fashioned scare works no matter what language the parties speak. An email from halfway around the world is negligible...yet a surprise knock on the door from the person you screwed is bound to send a shiver up the guys spine. Since they're Aussies..they should take that "Donk" guy from Crocodile Dundee with them.

 

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