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In Reply to: RE: Creating vintage sounding speaker using modern elements, Which tweeter to use ? posted by E|ias on August 03, 2013 at 15:35:12
Are you trying to make a two way speaker with one tweeter and a 12" woofer?
That may not work out too well.
charles
Follow Ups:
Yes I'm targeting at 2-way.There has been many 2-way speakers with rather big bass drivers.
For example Stephens Trusonic with 12 inch woofer and bullet(?) tweeter.
Then JBL had many models, like Baron 030 with 15" driver and bullet tweeter, and Dorian S12 with cone tweeter.10" driver and a dome tweeter seem to have been also popular, like in Dynaco A-25 .
So, I think 12" bass combined with a tweeter may not be a total hazard if tweeter is selected properly and cross over is given some thought.
Edits: 08/04/13
because I didn't know there was such a speaker. I have a pair of JBL C51 but the LE14's were shot. Took out the adapter rings and dropped in a pair of 2205. Then I sizzled an LE25 cone tweeter & in went the slots (similar to bullets). Pretty close to Barons now. Go ahead laugh if you want, everybody loves the way they sound. Modded the crossover so my ears are happy. No typical JBL sizzle-bark. Smooth & clear.
Good luck on your project & keep us posted on what you do Elias!
You could do what Stephens, JBL, Altec Lancing and others have done and use a bullet tweeter or horn tweeter (really a tweeter/midrange). You would also need a pro woofer to keep up in both efficiency and loudness. Pro woofer tend to go up higher in the too.
You could also use a Heil tweeter or a small full range driver augmented by a woofer. Fostex and Mark Audio both make suitable small full range drivers.
Dave
do consider Altec 417 (any version). I WAS surprised and delighted to hear one of mine sound terrific in the mono rig. The aluminum dust dome acts as sort of a whizzer cone and transmits a fair amount of high frequencies sounding very clear. Orchestra bass drum comes rolling out with surprising clarity. All driven by a Knight 10W 2xEL84 amp Uncle Harry built @ 1960.
Thanks FenderLover for mentioning the JBL w/Al domes, you reminded me of the Altec 417.
Those who wish to disparage "guitar speakers" (horrors!) in hi fi, 1) don't knock 'em 'til you've tried 'em, 2) Magnavox hi fi "coffins" often included Jensen P12R - astute guitarists & techs keep a scanny eye out for discarded units - they were "hi fi" in the 50-60's so that qualifies as vintage I hope, and 3) Altec 417 were developed by Altec to appeal to the electric guitar market, so try to put that out of your mind while letting your ears feast on luscious tone.
To pull this off, you need a tweeter that is really a mid-tweet that plays really really low plus a paper-cone woofer that plays really really high and then just smoothly rolls off without getting bumpy. Basically, no poly-cone woofer does this.
This is a much easier feat with a 10-inch woofer than a 12-inch woofer. That Seas woofer Madisound carries is a 10 incher that comes close to doing this, and there is a Tweeter that goes low as well. Airtime has all the details. The modern version of the Dynaco A20 is the relatively easy 2-way build, but that is a 10-inch woofer.
So far as I am aware, there is no currently-manufactured reasonably-priced 12-inch woofers that would work in a 2-way design. You are looking at using vintage paper-cone woofers from companies such as Jensen or Utah. These sometimes show up on ebay. Trusonic in later years was part of Utah, and I think a lot of Trusonic speakers prior to that used Utah-sourced drivers. If you measure the original large Advent woofer the right (wrong) way you MIGHT conclude its a 12 incher...its really a 10 inch woofer in a 12-inch frame. And the tweet ie really a mid-tweet, a mid range and tweeter in a single frame. The tricky part in a two-way large woofer design is getting the lower mids right in the transitiona area between the woofer and the tweeter. Even the large Advent didn't get this perfectly.
I would recommend a 10" Seas A26Re4 and Morel 27TDFC tweeter.
charles
I know Seas woofers can be good, I've used some in the past.
But they have too low sensitivity, typically below 90 dB, even for a 10" driver.
I agree with the idea that such big a cone rates to do best in a 3 way setup.
Find a cone midrange of "identical" sensitivity, with good overlap. Use a 1 pole crossover between woofer and midrange. Defintely use the same cone material, ideally paper. Polypropylene coated paper is OK too.
A silk dome tweeter, such as those made by Peerless and ScanSpeak, should be fine. IMO, it's OK to buy a tweeter whose sensitivity is greater than that of the other drivers, as a "L" pad will bring things into alignment.
Eli D.
Does vintage sound mean you are goign to listein to vintage Rock? Thought about a horn?
By 'vintage' I mean generally 'old style' of execution of the speaker design. Not restricted to any specific type of music genre. I don't particularly seek a guitar style of speaker, but it just appeared to me guitar speaker elements still have some oldish characteristics.
Maybe it is relevant also to think how vintage is vintage, since what was in fashion has changed a number of times.
Very simplistic timeline is propably something like:
horn tweeters -> cone tweeters -> dome tweeters -> dome tweeters with waveguide -> ??? back to horn tweeters ???
I may settle at the counterpoint between a cone tweeter and a dome tweeter :-)
Horn tweeters could be used, BUT they tend to have too narrow beam for home living room use.
I don't like small sweet spot.
Elias, although they're pricey, Jensen/Recoton's P12R-RI and/or P12Q-RI alnico 12" drivers will give you instant vintage vibe. Just like David LD intimated. P12R-RI is rated up to 50 watts, with 60 hz-8 khz frequency range & 93.6 dB sensitivity. P12Q-RI ups the wattage to 80, & sensitivity to 96.1 dB. Replaced stock woofs in ESS Model 10s with Mesa/Boogie's P10R-RI drivers, along with replacing stock Philips tweets with Motorola piezos. Easily emulates seductive auld-skool alnico sweetness. 73s para Sactown !!!
These are musical instrument speakers, with small magnets, high Fs and high Q. They are not high fidelity speakers.
They sure have a nostalgic look, though.
Elias, have used 12" Utah Cadences, in Hafler configuration, for close to three decades (with a Jensen 1204 providing occasional centre channel duty). Wanted to switch to Celestion's G12H-30s back in '81, because of Jimi. Ron Rader, of Rader's Music, said stay the course with the Utahs because G12H-30s would blur bass response. A decade ago, switched to Mesa's V30s for Hafler front channel presentation. Had Brown Soun hemp recone them several years later. Brown Soun's late owner John Harrison said he received several other customer requests for hemp-reconed V30s for hi-fi use, too. He was told those V30s delivered the best midrange they'd ever elicited from their multi-kiloback rigs. Switched to hemp-reconed Mesa MC-90s (G12H-80 variants) a few years ago because that V30 mid-spike was exacerbated via Carver amplification. Still use Utah Cadences for rear-channel delivery, though. BTW briggs, Ron Neal of Neal's Speakers said many of those Jensen speakers, which made Fender amplification legendary, started out as hi-fi speakers. Same same for Celestion's legendary G12 alnico Blue, too. 73s para Sactown !!!
FRG7SWL,
Sounds interesting. I also believe guitar elements can be used in home hifi, when implemeted properly.
Are your speakers 2-ways, too ?
Can I know what did you use for tweeter ? That is the question :-)
Indeed, I've been looking at guitar drivers :-)
Those Jensen vintage style reproductions are made in italy
http://www.sica.it/en/products.html?page=shop.browse&category_id=13&parentCategory=2
end they certainly have appealing vintage appearance
However I think they have a slight problem of rather high resonance frequencies, 90 Hz for P 12 Q, and 80 Hz for P 12 R.
This 12" Celestion Heritage Series G12H(55) has got my attention. 55 Hz resonance which is very good for a driver of this kind. 30 W of power handling indicates something 'vintage' is built in ;-)http://celestion.com/product/25/heritage_series_g12h55/
Crossing this at 1.5 kHz would do nicely, I think.Having sensitivity of about 100 dB at 1 kHz gives a great challenge to find a matching tweeter.
The highest sensitity domes I know are around 95 dB.
Edits: 08/04/13
At least, for guitar use, to get that classic Bluesy tone.As for the Re-issued Jensens (Made in Italy), I don't think they have the vintage "Made In Chicago" Jensen alnico tone. Maybe, the re-issued C12K get close to the original C12N's in the blackface Twin Reverb. Maybe...
In general, the bigger the magnet the better the power handling capacity. I'd prolly go for a Concert Series P12P (often labeled Bell & Howell). These give the best classic tone and were used in many hi-fi units, of its time.
Ever thought about chrome-doming a JBL woofer? Chrome peeking out of the grille is pretty retro-looking.
8^)
Edits: 08/04/13 08/04/13
Just loaded a 4 X 10-inch cab with these. Nice vintage "tweed" tone.
.
.
Edits: 08/04/13
Salutations para Sactown once again, FenderLover. Sweet lookin' quartet! 'Tis rumoured Mesa's P10R-RI's have different cone than "stock" Recotons. Kinda like how Mesa's V30s have a different voicing than "stock" V30s. That 1204 came from Skip's Music's original 24th & Florin Road store. Replaced in a Fender amp by a G12H-30, oddly enuff (tech forgot which model, & that's moi's alibi). Heard Webers were the way to go for authentic Chicago Jensen nowadays. Those are some sick-lookin' stacks ya got goin' on, too! Got that chrome-dome jones outta me bones with them Utah Cadences back-in-da-late 70s on into da 80s. BTW, Berkeley's Sound Well currently has a pair of near-mint JBL D123's. ... Elias, have been a two-way proponent since Air Force tech sarges converted impressionable brat into efficiency fiend. Tweets are different in each system, though. ESS Model 10s have Motorola piezos. Cerwin Vega's have horn tweets partnered with 12" EVH Forces. MC-90s have dynaudio D28-AFs. All tweets have 4.7 uf Dayton poly-prop crossovers, except for Utility Advents & their 12uf Dayton poly-props. Which means, Elias, there are various avenues to vintage aurality. 73s para Sactown !!!
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