 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
209.137.226.250
In Reply to: RE: Another point of view posted by op48no1 on March 14, 2013 at 07:01:56
Winston-- You can get scoffer-baloney like this first paragraph from anyone who doubts anything on the Planet. It's easy to splat it out there-- it costs them nothing...!! Anyone can barf on anything.It stinks.
The simple truth is-- some things work, some don't. Emotional outbursts like the first paragraph ARE baloney-- and will not help good audio equipment to get built.
Your job-- as someone engaged in making audio electronics work well-- is-- to get it to work well!
Take a look at the SECOND paragraph though-- the man says to get good Industrial parts for your equipment. I agree totally with him on that-- it's part of how it's done right.
"Dress your leads" can mean anything, just don't ty-rap them together to "look neat". Good wiring layout WILL look neat, but each wire will be suspended in 3 dimensions-- not placed near or tied to-- anything. That's also an Art-- it is very necessary to get top performance.
"look to where the money leads" and "avoid demagoguery" are cop-outs that are designed to mislead and confuse-- and are the products of a negative attitude towards honest people. Both have absolutely nothing to do with obtaining the best parts and using them correctly-- which is the subject here.
This kind of attitude being shoved in-your-face IS "demagoguery"-- judging people or objects without having ever met or used them.
The advice concerning obtaining good Industrial parts stands, however, it is good advice.... and is what we do.
---Dennis---
Edits: 03/14/13Follow Ups:
dem·a·gogue
/ˈdeməˌgäg/
Noun
1. A political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
2. (in ancient Greece and Rome) A leader or orator who espoused the cause of the common people.
Winston:
The demagogues do not like it when we call their bluff. In fact, they can get downright ornery.
Take a look around and you can see the world is awash in demagoguery. The world is a subtle and complex place. It's so much easier and more comfortable just to turn off your brain and fall into line behind those -- like Dennis here -- who spin pretty fantasies and try tell you how to think and act. It's so much harder, but so much more rewarding, to take honest stock of what's going on and to use your own mind to come to your own thoughtful decisions.
The demagogue will tell you there is no difference between his methods and those of his opponent. The creationist lies (or maybe he's just too stupid to realize how full of himself he is) and proclaims that evolutionary biology is just another form of religion. But we can do better than that.
There is a fundamental difference between legitimate skepticism and demagoguery. The former is based on reason. It is supported by clearly stated assumptions and consistent chains of argument and inference. The latter is propped up on shabby presuppositions and disingenuous appeals to sentiment. This is why, looking back at the history of this asylum, you see, year after year, the purveyors of audiophool nonsense doing everything in their power to demean, and elevate themselves above, proper audio engineering.
Audio design most definitely has a subjective side, and many cause-and-effect relationships between design and sound are either not well understood at all, or are too difficult for most hobbyists to understand and control. I am not here to pass judgment on Mundorf capacitors or on people who find value in playing with expensive audiophile tweakery. I'm not here to tell you "science" proves the tweakers wrong, or has all the answers, or is even the best foundation for enjoying the DIY audio hobby. Some people talk that way, but not me. The love of hi-end audio is not a rational sentiment, so why should we be forced to pursue it rationally? Do whatever floats your boat.
And I'm not here to order you how to conduct your hobby, or to tell you my stereo is better than yours, or to influence your thinking in any way except one: I want you to think on your own, and not fall into the trap of supplicating yourself to these self-annointed charlatans just because they think highly of themselves and tell pretty stories.
Dennis (and his ilk) are here to sell you something. A fantasy. In return, they hope to get validation, prestige, influence, money -- or maybe a combination of these things. Dennis may or may not be honest. Let's give him the benefit of a doubt and say he is sincere, but reckless. And rude. Because he willfully ignores and dismisses opposing points of view that make him uncomfortable or cast him in a bad light. Because he consistently reminds us that he is better than all of us. And because so much of what he says is demonstrably, objectively wrong.
I have spent years now observing and engaging the Doctrine of Dennis. I am very comfortable saying, no matter how superficially appealing Dennis's ideas may seem, at the core his story is riddled with holes and hot air.
Yes, this is a harsh position I'm staking out. I wouldn't want you to believe me just because I'm friendly. In fact, by going out of my way to be unfriendly, I pretty much insulate myself against any accusation that I'm in this for power and influence. Postings like this are just my way of pushing back a little bit at a world that has clearly lost its senses.
You get to choose what to think, believe, and do. Good luck.
-Henry
One thing here is certainly clear-- someone has definitely lost his senses.
The things that myself and other good engineers have been able to build outperform-- everyday-- the very best of what has been offered to members of this forum.
People who own and have used this equipment over time have proven-- beyond any possible shadow of doubt-- the superiority of simply thinking originally, and then designing something to be the best at what it does.
Quite naturally, methods have been developed to deliver this high-level performance consistently, over a period of years. These methods were not envisioned, and then developed for anyone to prove anything personally. THEY WERE DEVELOPED TO DELIVER MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE and THEY DO.
There is NO glory to me personally to take the time out to answer a question that was asked of me on the forum. I am busy trying to build a home since fire claimed by own-- and several neighbor's as well.
If you think that I took out valuable time to gain some kind of goodie--when, in fact, I shouldn't be using up valuable time, and recieve NO compensation for it, you're a total idiot, Henry!
I answered the question honestly, and completely, and ALSO took the time to impart extremely valuable know-how as applied to using capacitor banks as wideband pass mediums.
It is true that I wasn't asked to provide all of that, but if you're talking about expensive caps, then you need to know HOW TO USE them!
I realized this, and provided an honest, complete answer.
It doesn't get any better than that, Henry.
You have the right to disagree. You DO NOT have the right to slander honest people.
---Dennis---
Dennis, let's get a few things straight.
First of all you are not a "good engineer." You are not an engineer at all. You have no engineering credentials, you do not understand nor subscribe to engineering methodology, you do not communicate in a way that is recognizable to an engineer as engineering communication. Kindly, out of respect to those of us who ARE engineers, please stop misrepresenting yourself in this way.
Second, anecdotal reports from the incredibly small user base of your narrow-purpose equipment prove nothing about the superiority of your methods and designs. In fact, there are very good arguments to be made that your amplifiers are INFERIOR, if only because they are utterly useless at driving the vast majority of real-world loudspeakers in real-world listening rooms.
Third, you constantly remind us that your amplifiers are the very best in the world. This is a grandiose claim. The only proof you have is vigorous assertion. Personally, I don't believe in the "world's best amplifier" because there is no single use case, and therefore no single best solution. I don't know if I'm more offended by the claim itself, or by the fact that you expect people to believe it.
Fourth, I am confident you wouldn't be posting here if there wasn't some net benefit to you, financially, psychologically, or whatever. I cannot believe you get nothing out of it. My goal is to make the experience less pleasant for you, so you will be encouraged to go away.
Fifth, I dispute that your "know-how" is "extremely valuable." I say the value is questionable at best, and quite possibly a net loss. I have pointed out on many occasions statements you have made that are undeniably misleading and/or untrue. You have never responded satisfactorily. In my opinion, the community is better off without your "know-how."
Sixth, I'm convinced that you sincerely believe what you say. What I consistently observe about you, though, is that you NEVER learn anything. You never adapt or grow from the feedback you receive. You are static and unchanging, and to me that means mentally DEAD. In my opinion, while representing yourself as being so vibrant and creative and alive, your mind is the worst kind of cold, hard stagnation. I don't expect you to understand this, but this is the profound impression you've given me, and I have a lot of experience interacting with smart, vibrant, creative people.
Finally, I haven't slandered you. It's in writing, so it would have to be libel. And to prove libel, you'd have to prove false and malicious defamation. I'll stand by the truth and honestly of everything I've said about you. If I've made a mistake, prove it and I will gladly apologize. Integrity is important to me. Politeness, not so much.
I don't know whether the misinformation you post is intentional or self-delusional, or a bit of both, But you should know better by now. That's why I said you are "reckless." I believe it would be best for you to find another playground to peddle your "incredibly valuable know-how." Like the Tweak asylum. Take Jeff with you.
-Henry
How come you use all those twenty five cent words?
Can anyone trust what you write ?
Dennis Fraker is not full of hot air. His amps bear ample witness to that.
End of topic.
But I do know you know how to balance yourself on a motorcycle.
Oops, wrong Forum.
Jeff Medwin
I thought you were supposed to have a tertiary education? So how come you object to Henry's vocabulary? It shouldn't be too difficult for you, surely?
To be truthful Ray,
I really went well beyond the third grade.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Henry thinks logically, loves to debate, and he writes beautifully, but his whole posting was uncalled for, off-base, and out of order, in my modest opinion.
EOM.
Jeff Medwin
I see my Limey vocabulary has caused confusion, sorry. "Tertiary Education" means college or university education. What I meant was that you have a university degree, AFAIK, so I'd be surprised if Henry's words were difficult for y0ou to understand.
Ray,
Yes, I had never seen that, but I figured out what it was, and just made a joke like I was stupid. I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in Business Administration from Penn State University, Class of 1966.
Jeff Medwin
Why?
Nothing will come of nothing: speak again.
-Henry
Criticizing one's opponent for being well-spoken is tantamount to admitting you're out-argued and have nothing to say.
I'm not trying to "talk fancy," Jeff. This is just how I think.
You've embarrassed yourself enough lately. Go away before you shoot off what remains of your feet.
Dennis's amps mean squat to me when the guy can't even carry on a coherent technical conversation. You and your amps, too, only you don't have quite as high-and-mighty an opinion of yourself as Dennis does.
The both of you belong in the Tweak forum.
Bye.
-Henry
PLEASE!
I know all of you mean well towards me, and generally towards the asylum crowd. Each has a view they believe in passionately. Excellent! That creates a dialectic, a process whereby the interaction of these opposite positions (hopefully) elevates us to what Hegel referred to as the 'synthesis', where the supposed differences are integrated into an entirely new understanding that allows us to progress, benefit and improve our collective lot.
But when the conflict between positions becomes overwhelming, personal and extremely bitter, it causes damage, a type of collateral damage to those observers engaged in the process, both directly and on the periphery. With enough negativity, some are lost irretrievably to the process itself. A shame, no doubt.
Thus a call to civility and respect is needed.
I think what everyone has offered has been done in what appears to be very good faith. Perhaps not, but I have no emotional crystal ball to look into the psyches of the contributors and determine who is expressing pure self interest disguised as unbiased opinion, and who is not.
And please understand that I am no 'babe in the woods'. While I may appear very sweet, ignorant and utterly lost in all of this, understand I am a retired litigation partner in a well-known trial law firm in one the largest cities in the world. So I know the value (or lack thereof) of 'expert opinions', as I have hired countless of them, some among the preeminent minds and voices in their fields.
What I learned from this career was simple: always keep an open mind, always listen very deeply but critically, never accept anything at face value, and ALWAYS be kind, courteous and thankful for every bit of help offered. Because life is simply to short to be mean and rude.
That said, I can get into a grouchy mood or two, like everyone else, and I can say things I might regret later. We all can. It happens. Forgiveness and understanding are watchwords of any evolved human existence.
We must always bear in mind that this website, these forums, and those who participate in them, are special. We share. We extend the hand of experience and knowledge we have obtained, and offer it for nothing but the reward of helping others. Some may wish to obtain private benefit through their offerings, and some may knowingly offer bad, disingenuous advice from malice, but I strongly suspect these are very, very few and far, far between. Most are honest, caring, sharing people. Again, this place is special.
What is most important is that participants herein are made to feel welcome, that their egos are not targeted for bruising or ridicule, that contrary opinions are honored rather than openly despised and put upon, and that we all work together to make this a very pleasant experience for those who engage this superb forum. This will insure the growth and longevity of a source for useful information that serves the audiophile community to which we all belong.
With that, I thank you all for your advisements, counsels, warnings, opinions, experiences and all else offered and shared, and hope that a spirit of community prevails here in the future, as it so often has in the past.
Because this place IS special.
Cheers,
WS
Very nicely put, Winston. I respect your sentiment, and the way you expressed it.
I think the essence of the problem here is that a lot of people feel the message coming from Dennis/Jeff, though it may be framed in a superficially positive way, is really quite negative and exclusionary. Of all the people who comment on this subject, I'm probably the most outspoken. I've been doing internet forums for a long time, and my experience has shaped my attitudes.
I apologize if when I said I want you to "use your brain" you took that as a personal slight. Though the posting was addressed to you, I was quite conscious of the fact that I was really preaching to the colloquium, as it were.
You seem like a very smart fellow. Too bad this isn't the real world; it would be interesting to step aside and speak to you in person.
Regards,
Henry
.
Hi Winston,
Intertechnik Audyn capacitors sound good in speakers, but not in electronics. I have tried the Audyn Reference and copper foil.
The Mundorf and Jantzen sound good in both. For your tube preamp forget humblehomemadehifi - speakers. On audiocircle there is a big capacitor-shootout thread for capacitors in electronics.
The Supreme SIO are very heat sensitive, the SGIO a little less - failure. The SIO have more highs, the SGIO more midrange warmth. Both have no deep tight bass. Mundorf told me for tubes inside a cabinet, i should use the Supreme SG without oil. (also bass shy)
You want smoothness + high detail, that's not easy.
Try the great Clarity Cap MR - 630V. Neutral from top to deep bass, high resolution and great dynamics in micro + macro. A friend has used them for tube output.
Well if you want all the best - the ice on the cake, there's nothing like Duelund.
If your DC voltage is around 150VDC you may use the VSF speaker version. Duelund says they are safe up to 200VDC. Ask them.
All capacitors have a direction. Burn them 200 hours and swap direction.
Johann
In the real world (you, a graduate EE, and a college teacher)..if YOU had to build an amp to power a high efficiency speaker, never in a MILLION YEARS could you ( or would you ) come close to the performance Dennis has obtained, for decades now !!! Particularly Dennis' work in recent years.I am more interested in results and techniques that work, ( especially if its not in the old textbooks ), than reading your mean posts.
In the real world, if your LIFE counted on building a high performance amp for efficient speakers, we'd be playing one of my favorites for you, Mozart's Requiem .
Cheers,
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 03/14/13
Of course I could build an amplifier as good as Dennis's, especially if I had a million years to work on it. The question is why I would want to waste ten thousand lifetimes doing something so trivial. I don't even want or need a puny 200mW amplifier.
But why in the real world would my life ever depend on building a high performance amp for high efficiency speakers?
This debate is pointless because it's predicated on two giant fallacies:
1) That Dennis's amplifiers really are as exceptional as the two of you think.
2) That your subjective perceptions and preferences actually represent those of the audiophile public at large.
Take away the two fallacies, and the whole thing just collapses. And that doesn't even take into account all the other objective fallacies the two of you spout.
Jeff, you're outmatched. Take it to the tweak forum.
-Henry
You so casually call things a fallacy when they are not - and when you have NO clue at all. Also, don't take liberties, it is not 200 mW in power.
I am not here to debate you, you have a pretty good mind for that. And you ride a Ducatti.
I am more interested in making better audio amplifiers. I made a statement to the effect, " that you could not build an equal, if not better low powered amplifier than Dennis ". This holds true. Nothing has changed. That is no fallacy.
This thread's discourse between us reminds me of the old saying :
If you can't DO IT, (make it in the real world) become a Teacher !!!
Jeff Medwin
It's a kind of mindless mental exercise, oxymoronically speaking.
Anyway, regarding the 200mW thing, there was a discussion recently about the current limits of Dennis's driver and Dennis himself explained that he sacrifices large-signal linearity for better sonic performance at low power. I floated the notion of 200mW being the limit of the sweet spot for this amp, to which Dennis did not disagree. Hence my comment above.
Now, you said I couldn't build an amp as good or better than Dennis's in a million years. I think it's perfectly plausible that I could, in fact, do exactly that, given so much time to experiment. So I dispute your claim to the contrary. As always, though, I would be happy to see you try to prove me wrong.
Concerning the two logical fallacies, I claim it's obvious by inspection that both are untrue. I welcome your rebuttal, but kindly request something more than proof by vigorous assertion. Precisely how do you demonstrate that a) Dennis's amps are the best in the world, and, b) you and Dennis are the final arbiters of subjective taste? I say you can't. Prove me wrong.
I believe the expression you're trying to quote is, "Those who can't do, teach." I find this to be an extraordinarily stupid and cynical saying, that is largely a reflection of the paradoxically low standing teachers have in society on account of their low salaries. This, in turn, IMHO, is due to the extremely short shrift children and their caregivers receive (e.g., pediatricians, to one of whom I am married), and also to deeply entrenched historical/religious traditions that dictate that teachers are obliged to be poor and live on handouts from their students.
All of which is completely ass-backwards in my opinion, since good teachers are some of the smartest, most hard-working, and most valuable members of society.
There is another saying, popular in the medical profession: "See one, do one, teach one." And the message there (ignoring the controversial issues of how medical training is conducted) is that you don't really understand something until you can teach it effectively to others. In my opinion, a much smarter and more relevant expression.
But what I think what you're really saying is that you're so overawed by Dennis that it's impossible to conceive of anyone matching what you perceive to be his skill and accomplishment. This, of course, is nonsense. I think what you really need to be asking yourself is why you have such a deep psychological need to attach yourself to dubious authority figures. Surely this reflects some kind of personality disorder. I would be interested to hear the details of your childhood, especially of your relationship with your father.
-Henry
It is my opinion that those who'd follow such ridiculous pronouncements as made by Dennis can not be saved from themselves. I have yet to see a counter example...:) let alone be responsible for one.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I'm truly sorry, Winston, that a simple, honest question about using capacitors could not be answered completely and honestly on this forum without the source for that answer being viciously attacked, maligned and lied about.
This forum is a wonderful thing, but unfortunately, it has become a haunt of Jackals. Because common decency is being destroyed, and common sense is viciously attacked, conventional electronic engineering mistakes that worked only partially-- in the past-- are all that will be tolerated on this forum.
New ideas and newly proven methods are not only eschewed, but anyone daring to mention them gets a full-blown attempt at inciting Mob-Rule thrown at him.
It is with great sorrow, and a broken heart that I witness the decline and take-over of this outherwise great forum.... one of the best on the Internet-- if you consider only the rational members.
These no longer have any voice here unless they lace their explanations in feather-smoothing absurdities, laced with old, obsolete "proven proofs" methods that barely worked in the past.
In order to placate the Attack Squad that uses this obsolete technology in a vain attempt to "prove" that they can "build" equipment that easily outperforms good commercial gear, members are expected to bow down, salute, praise, and shower these members with accolades and personal awards.. for their careful study of methods that at best-- produced barely mediocre results 50 years ago!
I can state flatly, and with total honesty, that almost any GOOD commercial gear today has their efforts badly beaten. VERY badly.
Yet, they cling to outmoded design beliefs that simply don't produce the best equipment-- because they have mastered the FORMULAS and PROOFS for these almost worthless methods..
WHAT DOES produce the best equipment is NO mystery among good commercial audio engineers, but they are few and far between-- there are plenty of them that are also stuck in the same old moldy, mildewing, rotting rooms as the "Detractors Inc."-- (my idiom) people who have invaded this forum, and routinely accuse its most rational and sincere members of being irrational, deluded, and even insincere.
When you are medoicre and have little else to offer, then attacking someone else who is honest may seem like the way to go. IT IS NOT.
A far better way to go would be to find out what the performance levels of the new ideas and equuipment really are--- now that would make some sense.
Most of this could easily be observed at various Audio Shows-- where honest vendors actually allow the public to see and hear their equipment.
It is to these fine people that I give my appreciation. To continue to pay homage and give extremely valuable information to an artiface that has been invaded by people with no empathy and no moral standing, and extremely poor engineering talents to boot-- has become counter-productive in the extreme.
Maybe some of you can save this once wonderful forum.
Unfortunately, quite a few of us have been forced to finally admit it-- it has become violently ill!
---Dennis---
nt
Ya' gotta get up to get down!
"This forum is a wonderful thing, but unfortunately, it has become a haunt of Jackals. Because common decency is being destroyed, and common sense is viciously attacked, conventional electronic engineering mistakes that worked only partially-- in the past-- are all that will be tolerated on this forum.
New ideas and newly proven methods are not only eschewed, but anyone daring to mention them gets a full-blown attempt at inciting Mob-Rule thrown at him."
Ridiculous, melodramatic and dishonest attempt to gain sympathy. You have the gall to vilify established engineering principles and practice, of which you manifestly understand very little, and yet you claim that you represent modern ideas in this field. You try to present yourself as a persecuted prophet.
"A far better way to go would be to find out what the performance levels of the new ideas and equuipment really are--- now that would make some sense."
Publish pictures and a schematic of your amplifier Dennis then we can find out what the performance level is.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Dennis, I flatly disagree with just about everything you say. But I'm so glad you posted this because together you and I have created such a remarkable dichotomy! Congratulations! The contrast is a beautiful thing to behold. And I mean that sincerely.
You know, in one way you are infinitely superior to Jeff. Jeff has nothing to say for himself whatsoever. You, on the other hand, have stood up and created this point-for point mirror image of everything I believe in. It's almost like staring into a pool of water and seeing the real world reflected in this incredibly twisted and dark way. I'm so glad you haven't just curled up in a fetal position and started to cry like Jeff does.
I would also say the beauty here is that there can be no synthesis. Like matter and antimatter, if we tried to combine these two perspectives, it would result in complete annihilation of both. I see this as pure, irreconcilable conflict. And I like that, because the battle lines are clearly drawn and there is no weaseling or ambiguity.
No, I don't respect you for your knowledge or opinions or experience or accomplishments. But somehow, all of a sudden I realized that because you exist, I am all that much surer of who I am.
Good work, Dennis.
-Henry
Post a Followup:
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
