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In Reply to: RE: Demagoguery posted by op48no1 on March 14, 2013 at 13:32:20
PLEASE!
I know all of you mean well towards me, and generally towards the asylum crowd. Each has a view they believe in passionately. Excellent! That creates a dialectic, a process whereby the interaction of these opposite positions (hopefully) elevates us to what Hegel referred to as the 'synthesis', where the supposed differences are integrated into an entirely new understanding that allows us to progress, benefit and improve our collective lot.
But when the conflict between positions becomes overwhelming, personal and extremely bitter, it causes damage, a type of collateral damage to those observers engaged in the process, both directly and on the periphery. With enough negativity, some are lost irretrievably to the process itself. A shame, no doubt.
Thus a call to civility and respect is needed.
I think what everyone has offered has been done in what appears to be very good faith. Perhaps not, but I have no emotional crystal ball to look into the psyches of the contributors and determine who is expressing pure self interest disguised as unbiased opinion, and who is not.
And please understand that I am no 'babe in the woods'. While I may appear very sweet, ignorant and utterly lost in all of this, understand I am a retired litigation partner in a well-known trial law firm in one the largest cities in the world. So I know the value (or lack thereof) of 'expert opinions', as I have hired countless of them, some among the preeminent minds and voices in their fields.
What I learned from this career was simple: always keep an open mind, always listen very deeply but critically, never accept anything at face value, and ALWAYS be kind, courteous and thankful for every bit of help offered. Because life is simply to short to be mean and rude.
That said, I can get into a grouchy mood or two, like everyone else, and I can say things I might regret later. We all can. It happens. Forgiveness and understanding are watchwords of any evolved human existence.
We must always bear in mind that this website, these forums, and those who participate in them, are special. We share. We extend the hand of experience and knowledge we have obtained, and offer it for nothing but the reward of helping others. Some may wish to obtain private benefit through their offerings, and some may knowingly offer bad, disingenuous advice from malice, but I strongly suspect these are very, very few and far, far between. Most are honest, caring, sharing people. Again, this place is special.
What is most important is that participants herein are made to feel welcome, that their egos are not targeted for bruising or ridicule, that contrary opinions are honored rather than openly despised and put upon, and that we all work together to make this a very pleasant experience for those who engage this superb forum. This will insure the growth and longevity of a source for useful information that serves the audiophile community to which we all belong.
With that, I thank you all for your advisements, counsels, warnings, opinions, experiences and all else offered and shared, and hope that a spirit of community prevails here in the future, as it so often has in the past.
Because this place IS special.
Cheers,
WS
Follow Ups:
Very nicely put, Winston. I respect your sentiment, and the way you expressed it.
I think the essence of the problem here is that a lot of people feel the message coming from Dennis/Jeff, though it may be framed in a superficially positive way, is really quite negative and exclusionary. Of all the people who comment on this subject, I'm probably the most outspoken. I've been doing internet forums for a long time, and my experience has shaped my attitudes.
I apologize if when I said I want you to "use your brain" you took that as a personal slight. Though the posting was addressed to you, I was quite conscious of the fact that I was really preaching to the colloquium, as it were.
You seem like a very smart fellow. Too bad this isn't the real world; it would be interesting to step aside and speak to you in person.
Regards,
Henry
.
Hi Winston,
Intertechnik Audyn capacitors sound good in speakers, but not in electronics. I have tried the Audyn Reference and copper foil.
The Mundorf and Jantzen sound good in both. For your tube preamp forget humblehomemadehifi - speakers. On audiocircle there is a big capacitor-shootout thread for capacitors in electronics.
The Supreme SIO are very heat sensitive, the SGIO a little less - failure. The SIO have more highs, the SGIO more midrange warmth. Both have no deep tight bass. Mundorf told me for tubes inside a cabinet, i should use the Supreme SG without oil. (also bass shy)
You want smoothness + high detail, that's not easy.
Try the great Clarity Cap MR - 630V. Neutral from top to deep bass, high resolution and great dynamics in micro + macro. A friend has used them for tube output.
Well if you want all the best - the ice on the cake, there's nothing like Duelund.
If your DC voltage is around 150VDC you may use the VSF speaker version. Duelund says they are safe up to 200VDC. Ask them.
All capacitors have a direction. Burn them 200 hours and swap direction.
Johann
In the real world (you, a graduate EE, and a college teacher)..if YOU had to build an amp to power a high efficiency speaker, never in a MILLION YEARS could you ( or would you ) come close to the performance Dennis has obtained, for decades now !!! Particularly Dennis' work in recent years.I am more interested in results and techniques that work, ( especially if its not in the old textbooks ), than reading your mean posts.
In the real world, if your LIFE counted on building a high performance amp for efficient speakers, we'd be playing one of my favorites for you, Mozart's Requiem .
Cheers,
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 03/14/13
Of course I could build an amplifier as good as Dennis's, especially if I had a million years to work on it. The question is why I would want to waste ten thousand lifetimes doing something so trivial. I don't even want or need a puny 200mW amplifier.
But why in the real world would my life ever depend on building a high performance amp for high efficiency speakers?
This debate is pointless because it's predicated on two giant fallacies:
1) That Dennis's amplifiers really are as exceptional as the two of you think.
2) That your subjective perceptions and preferences actually represent those of the audiophile public at large.
Take away the two fallacies, and the whole thing just collapses. And that doesn't even take into account all the other objective fallacies the two of you spout.
Jeff, you're outmatched. Take it to the tweak forum.
-Henry
You so casually call things a fallacy when they are not - and when you have NO clue at all. Also, don't take liberties, it is not 200 mW in power.
I am not here to debate you, you have a pretty good mind for that. And you ride a Ducatti.
I am more interested in making better audio amplifiers. I made a statement to the effect, " that you could not build an equal, if not better low powered amplifier than Dennis ". This holds true. Nothing has changed. That is no fallacy.
This thread's discourse between us reminds me of the old saying :
If you can't DO IT, (make it in the real world) become a Teacher !!!
Jeff Medwin
It's a kind of mindless mental exercise, oxymoronically speaking.
Anyway, regarding the 200mW thing, there was a discussion recently about the current limits of Dennis's driver and Dennis himself explained that he sacrifices large-signal linearity for better sonic performance at low power. I floated the notion of 200mW being the limit of the sweet spot for this amp, to which Dennis did not disagree. Hence my comment above.
Now, you said I couldn't build an amp as good or better than Dennis's in a million years. I think it's perfectly plausible that I could, in fact, do exactly that, given so much time to experiment. So I dispute your claim to the contrary. As always, though, I would be happy to see you try to prove me wrong.
Concerning the two logical fallacies, I claim it's obvious by inspection that both are untrue. I welcome your rebuttal, but kindly request something more than proof by vigorous assertion. Precisely how do you demonstrate that a) Dennis's amps are the best in the world, and, b) you and Dennis are the final arbiters of subjective taste? I say you can't. Prove me wrong.
I believe the expression you're trying to quote is, "Those who can't do, teach." I find this to be an extraordinarily stupid and cynical saying, that is largely a reflection of the paradoxically low standing teachers have in society on account of their low salaries. This, in turn, IMHO, is due to the extremely short shrift children and their caregivers receive (e.g., pediatricians, to one of whom I am married), and also to deeply entrenched historical/religious traditions that dictate that teachers are obliged to be poor and live on handouts from their students.
All of which is completely ass-backwards in my opinion, since good teachers are some of the smartest, most hard-working, and most valuable members of society.
There is another saying, popular in the medical profession: "See one, do one, teach one." And the message there (ignoring the controversial issues of how medical training is conducted) is that you don't really understand something until you can teach it effectively to others. In my opinion, a much smarter and more relevant expression.
But what I think what you're really saying is that you're so overawed by Dennis that it's impossible to conceive of anyone matching what you perceive to be his skill and accomplishment. This, of course, is nonsense. I think what you really need to be asking yourself is why you have such a deep psychological need to attach yourself to dubious authority figures. Surely this reflects some kind of personality disorder. I would be interested to hear the details of your childhood, especially of your relationship with your father.
-Henry
It is my opinion that those who'd follow such ridiculous pronouncements as made by Dennis can not be saved from themselves. I have yet to see a counter example...:) let alone be responsible for one.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I'm truly sorry, Winston, that a simple, honest question about using capacitors could not be answered completely and honestly on this forum without the source for that answer being viciously attacked, maligned and lied about.
This forum is a wonderful thing, but unfortunately, it has become a haunt of Jackals. Because common decency is being destroyed, and common sense is viciously attacked, conventional electronic engineering mistakes that worked only partially-- in the past-- are all that will be tolerated on this forum.
New ideas and newly proven methods are not only eschewed, but anyone daring to mention them gets a full-blown attempt at inciting Mob-Rule thrown at him.
It is with great sorrow, and a broken heart that I witness the decline and take-over of this outherwise great forum.... one of the best on the Internet-- if you consider only the rational members.
These no longer have any voice here unless they lace their explanations in feather-smoothing absurdities, laced with old, obsolete "proven proofs" methods that barely worked in the past.
In order to placate the Attack Squad that uses this obsolete technology in a vain attempt to "prove" that they can "build" equipment that easily outperforms good commercial gear, members are expected to bow down, salute, praise, and shower these members with accolades and personal awards.. for their careful study of methods that at best-- produced barely mediocre results 50 years ago!
I can state flatly, and with total honesty, that almost any GOOD commercial gear today has their efforts badly beaten. VERY badly.
Yet, they cling to outmoded design beliefs that simply don't produce the best equipment-- because they have mastered the FORMULAS and PROOFS for these almost worthless methods..
WHAT DOES produce the best equipment is NO mystery among good commercial audio engineers, but they are few and far between-- there are plenty of them that are also stuck in the same old moldy, mildewing, rotting rooms as the "Detractors Inc."-- (my idiom) people who have invaded this forum, and routinely accuse its most rational and sincere members of being irrational, deluded, and even insincere.
When you are medoicre and have little else to offer, then attacking someone else who is honest may seem like the way to go. IT IS NOT.
A far better way to go would be to find out what the performance levels of the new ideas and equuipment really are--- now that would make some sense.
Most of this could easily be observed at various Audio Shows-- where honest vendors actually allow the public to see and hear their equipment.
It is to these fine people that I give my appreciation. To continue to pay homage and give extremely valuable information to an artiface that has been invaded by people with no empathy and no moral standing, and extremely poor engineering talents to boot-- has become counter-productive in the extreme.
Maybe some of you can save this once wonderful forum.
Unfortunately, quite a few of us have been forced to finally admit it-- it has become violently ill!
---Dennis---
nt
Ya' gotta get up to get down!
"This forum is a wonderful thing, but unfortunately, it has become a haunt of Jackals. Because common decency is being destroyed, and common sense is viciously attacked, conventional electronic engineering mistakes that worked only partially-- in the past-- are all that will be tolerated on this forum.
New ideas and newly proven methods are not only eschewed, but anyone daring to mention them gets a full-blown attempt at inciting Mob-Rule thrown at him."
Ridiculous, melodramatic and dishonest attempt to gain sympathy. You have the gall to vilify established engineering principles and practice, of which you manifestly understand very little, and yet you claim that you represent modern ideas in this field. You try to present yourself as a persecuted prophet.
"A far better way to go would be to find out what the performance levels of the new ideas and equuipment really are--- now that would make some sense."
Publish pictures and a schematic of your amplifier Dennis then we can find out what the performance level is.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Dennis, I flatly disagree with just about everything you say. But I'm so glad you posted this because together you and I have created such a remarkable dichotomy! Congratulations! The contrast is a beautiful thing to behold. And I mean that sincerely.
You know, in one way you are infinitely superior to Jeff. Jeff has nothing to say for himself whatsoever. You, on the other hand, have stood up and created this point-for point mirror image of everything I believe in. It's almost like staring into a pool of water and seeing the real world reflected in this incredibly twisted and dark way. I'm so glad you haven't just curled up in a fetal position and started to cry like Jeff does.
I would also say the beauty here is that there can be no synthesis. Like matter and antimatter, if we tried to combine these two perspectives, it would result in complete annihilation of both. I see this as pure, irreconcilable conflict. And I like that, because the battle lines are clearly drawn and there is no weaseling or ambiguity.
No, I don't respect you for your knowledge or opinions or experience or accomplishments. But somehow, all of a sudden I realized that because you exist, I am all that much surer of who I am.
Good work, Dennis.
-Henry
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