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209.43.1.25
In Reply to: RE: I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, it's true posted by Peter H-son on September 30, 2009 at 09:44:08
Then say something now. You attacked us - what is your weapon?
Follow Ups:
"You attacked us - what is your weapon?"
Is that to me? I attacked nobody. I defend.
This thread is an attack on reason, skepticism, critical thinking and science.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
It is a critique of a lunitic fringe that pretends to be skeptics, critical thinkers and scientific.
Being called "lunitic fringe" by your kind is a badge of honor.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
Edits: 09/30/09
Huh?
"My kind?" what would that be?
Who said anything about you? I was refering to the lunitic fringe on Hydrogen Audio. I'm talkin about the folks that would say you suffer from a mental illness and need treatment because of your beliefs about audio. Don't think so? Tell ya what. Go to Hydrogen Audio and post your veiws about the levels of resolution of vinyl vs. redbook CD. I dare you. then after you have been accused of being anti science, a true believer and mentally ill get back to me about how those folks are real skeptics, and defenders of science and rational thought.
"Go to Hydrogen Audio and post your veiws about the levels of resolution of vinyl vs. redbook CD."
Why would I do that? I do not force the issue here or anywhere else. Maybe I have just run into sucky CD players? Maybe the digital fans have only heard sucky CD players?
That's not important.
You have people here making outlandish claims. That is not so bad. But then they resort to name-calling and try to bully people into believing their nonsense. How does that make them different from ANY religious fundamentalist?
They believe their failure is the failure of science.
Passing a DBT is the easiest thing in the world, if there is a difference.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
to get a better understanding of exactly who and what is actually being criticized. You jumped into this thread seemingly thinking it was about you. I assure you it wasn't.
"You have people here making outlandish claims. That is not so bad. But then they resort to name-calling and try to bully people into believing their nonsense. How does that make them different from ANY religious fundamentalist?"
I don't think the claims about some of the folks at Hydrogenaudio are particularly outlandish. I think if you were to get a first hand taste you would find yourself in agreement with much of what is being said here about those folks.
As for name calling... it does not make one a fundamentalist. You have done your fair share of it on this thread.
"Passing a DBT is the easiest thing in the world, if there is a difference."
This thread isn't about passing dbts or about cables or about you. It is about a particular group of lunitic fringe objectivists and their distortions of real science and of subjectivists and of audio in general. We are talking about a group of people that would call *you* mentally ill and in need of mental treatment because of your beliefs about audio. I only suggested you engage them in a conversation about the resolution of vinyl vs. Redbook CD so you could get a first hand taste of what it is we are criticizing in this thread.
"You jumped into this thread seemingly thinking it was about you. I assure you it wasn't."
Two wrongs. I'm not a narcissist. I do not think the world revolves on me.
"I don't think the claims about some of the folks at Hydrogenaudio are particularly outlandish."
Nor do I. I'm talking about the outlandish claims made by the wire fetishists.
"As for name calling... it does not make one a fundamentalist."
Not what I said at all. I said that carcass93 and his ilks are bullies. If you do not submit to their belief system, you are a coward and should go fuck yourself. His words, not mine.
"This thread isn't about passing dbts or about cables or about you. It is about a particular group of lunitic fringe objectivists and their distortions of real science and of subjectivists and of audio in general."
I say pigs can fly. You say No. I then say you are a lunitic fringe objectivist.
I do not think pigs can fly any more than I believe the cable fetishists' claims. The only difference between those claims is BELIEF.
A Christian is likely to believe somebody who says Jesus has talked to him. The Christian is far less likely to believe somebody who says Buddha has talked to him.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
Then you posted to the worng thread. There was no talk about cables until you brought it up. The thread was about some folks on Hydrogen Audio. You jumped in and started slinging insults. Do you walk into a bar and punch someone in the face and then feel outraged and wronged when you get punched back? How is it that you, the guy who fired the first insult, have any business acting all righteous about others insulting you? Were you just in need of some attention? Did you think you were contributing in some way? why are you even posting on this thread?
"Then you posted to the worng thread."
Not at all.
"There was no talk about cables until you brought it up."
Yes, there was. "Some poor soul decided it would be good idea to post results of his positive test of power cords on HydrogenAudio."
"The thread was about some folks on Hydrogen Audio."
Almost. The thread is about the folks on Hydrogen Audio WHO DO NOT SHARE THE BELIEF OF THE CABLE FETISHISTS. If the folks at Hydrogen Audio would have bought the cable fetishists' superstitious beliefs, there would have been no thread.
I could go to the Hydrogen Audio forum (I assume it's a forum) and start a thread saying pigs can fly. I'm sure the folks there would call me an idiot. Then I could come here and bitch about it. Same thing and just as retarded.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
> > > Then you posted to the worng thread.> > >
> > Not at all.> >
> > > There was no talk about cables until you brought it up.> > >
> > Yes, there was. "Some poor soul decided it would be good idea to post results of his positive test of power cords on HydrogenAudio."> >
yeah, that is what they do there. but apparently it's only OK if the results match the beliefs. Apparently this is something you have in common with the nut jobs on Hydrogen Audio. no wonder you took it personally. here is a clue about real science. There is no cherry picking based on whether or not one *likes* the results.
> > > The thread was about some folks on Hydrogen Audio.> > >
> > Almost.> >
Nope. It was exactly about them.
> > The thread is about the folks on Hydrogen Audio WHO DO NOT SHARE THE BELIEF OF THE CABLE FETISHISTS. If the folks at Hydrogen Audio would have bought the cable fetishists' superstitious beliefs, there would have been no thread.> >
In a way you are right. It was about them pretending to be scientific when if fact they were acting like religious zealots who only embrace science when it conforms to their religious beliefs. Apparently you endorse such behaviour.
> > I could go to the Hydrogen Audio forum (I assume it's a forum) and start a thread saying pigs can fly. I'm sure the folks there would call me an idiot. Then I could come here and bitch about it. Same thing and just as retarded.> >
Or you could go there and post your beliefs about vinyl resolution vs. Redbook CD and see what it is like to be faced with someone like you. I think you owe to yourself to walk a mile in the other guy's shoes. Maybe you will learn a thing or two about arrogance and self righteousness.
"yeah, that is what they do there. but apparently it's only OK if the results match the beliefs. Apparently this is something you have in common with the nut jobs on Hydrogen Audio. no wonder you took it personally. here is a clue about real science. There is no cherry picking based on whether or not one *likes* the results."
False. There is no such result. Hydrogen Audio has all the science on its side. The only thing you cable fetishists have is your superstitious belief. You lose.
"Or you could go there and post your beliefs about vinyl resolution vs. Redbook CD and see what it is like to be faced with someone like you. I think you owe to yourself to walk a mile in the other guy's shoes. Maybe you will learn a thing or two about arrogance and self righteousness."
That makes no sense at all. That's like asking me to become a Creationist so I can experience what it feels like to get my ass handed to me by science. I have no more issues with science than I have with Hydrogen Audio.
You are committing the same fallacy as all the other wackjobs on this forum.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
"False. There is no such result. Hydrogen Audio has all the science on its side. The only thing you cable fetishists have is your superstitious belief. You lose."
You sound like a creationist talking about radiometric dating. There *was* such a result. It was reported on the thread at Hydrogenaudio. How do you like them cherries? We know which one's you are picking.
What sicence is on their side? Do tell us what at Hydrogen audio has ever been published in a scientific peer reviewed journal. Do you know how real science actually works? Your assertion that they have real science on their side strongly suggests otherwise.
"It was reported on the thread at Hydrogenaudio."
By the likes of you.
Wackjobs on this forum have given us "Scientific evidence of power cables reducing signal distortion."
That is NOT science.
"Do tell us what at Hydrogen audio has ever been published in a scientific peer reviewed journal."
You really are that stupid, aren't you?
You do not need science to reject claims that pigs can fly or that the earth is flat. That is not how science works.
YOU are the ones making outlandish claims. The burden of proof is on your side. The rest of us have no reason to believe you until you do. Why would anyone believe you more than the people in the Penn & Teller videos? You are all the same as far as I'm concerned. Neither one of you has a skeptical bone in his body.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
as well as any religious zealot ever argues their position. Let's review some of the highlights of your insightful arguments.
"By the likes of you.
Wackjobs on this forum have given us 'Scientific evidence of power cables reducing signal distortion.'"
> > Do tell us what at Hydrogen audio has ever been published in a scientific peer reviewed journal.> >
"You really are that stupid, aren't you?
You do not need science to reject claims that pigs can fly or that the earth is flat. That is not how science works."
"YOU are the ones making outlandish claims. The burden of proof is on your side. The rest of us have no reason to believe you until you do. Why would anyone believe you more than the people in the Penn & Teller videos? You are all the same as far as I'm concerned. Neither one of you has a skeptical bone in his body."
Why should I bring a sword to this battle when you are some eager to fall on your own?
I can't say I have seen any better examples of the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Bravo!
... is fine, as long as it's him doing the swinging.
Truly selective perception and memory, in best objectivist tradition...
"Nobody is dumber that the idiots here" was a response. Before that I tried to figure out what this thread is about. The initial post made little sense to me. More precisely, why on this forum? The true believers on the cable forum would surely be much more receptive.
But you knew who the "idiots" were.
You come here and insult the intelligense of everybody with your outlandish claims and superstitious belief. Then you get insulted because we are not stupid enough to buy your nonsense.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
> Is that to me? I attacked nobody. I defend. <
Ok. What's your defense?
> This thread is an attack on reason, skepticism, critical thinking and science. <
How so? You seem to be ok with sonic difference in amps and preamps but stop at cables? As mkuller asked, are you saying that it is physically impossible to change the sound of a working cable? Your claim regarding this thread is noted but unsupported. So, support it. I'm listening.
N/T
First, I do believe everything should sound different. That being said, I suspect some differences are below human audibility. Of course, this threshold varies from person to person. I personally have heard greater differences among preamps and amplifiers than cables and accordingly, have spent greater resources towards them.
Donald North
...some might even say "scientific".
> > ...some might even say "scientific".> >
Then they would be wrong.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
...no sense of humor or the ability to recognize sarcasm.
Oh, but you know "science" when you see it...
> > Oh, but you know "science" when you see it...> >
No, I do not know science when I see it. Plato was a bore, to quote Nietzsche.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
"How so? You seem to be ok with sonic difference in amps and preamps but stop at cables? As mkuller asked, are you saying that it is physically impossible to change the sound of a working cable? Your claim regarding this thread is noted but unsupported. So, support it. I'm listening."
Putting words in the mouths of people show extremely bad taste. I have said NONE of those things. I have made NO claim.
I stop nowhere.
It can be hard telling any difference between amplifiers in blind tests: The Blind leading the Deaf
If you want to sell me that cables make a difference, all you have to do is prove it.
If you do not want to prove it, fine.
I don't go to the cable forum proving to them they are wrong. All I ask in return is that you do the same and post this thread where it belongs.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
> All I ask in return is that you do the same and post this thread where it belongs <
It belongs where it is. I'm asking you if there are scientific reasons that prove that no working 10 ft speaker cable or 1 m interconnect can ever sound different from another working 10 ft speaker cable or 1m interconnect. I say "working" to stipulate that the cable in fact moves the signal from point A to point B to differentiate from others using the word "broken"... as in that oft-heard declaration, "all cables sound alike unless one is broken".
How is this not a technical/scientific question? I'm not stating here that cables absolutely make a difference; I'm asking if you believe that they cannot.
> If you want to sell me that cables make a difference, all you have to do is prove it. <
I don't. It makes no difference to me if you believe it or not. Even if I posted my proof, you wouldn't believe it (not that you necessarily should). It's up to you to prove it to yourself if you have any interest.
One cannot prove a universal negative with statistics. The problems are to show that audible differences exist and under what conditions.
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
> One cannot prove a universal negative with statistics. <
Where's the evidence that it's a universal negative? That's what I'm asking. Why do you need proof of audible differences? There must be some reason that your fallback position is that cables can't sound different (excluding length, guage and the usual suspects). What is that reason? Why is it so hard to believe that different cables affect sound in different ways?
You're the one that wanted proof for a universal negative. I quote from above:
"I'm asking you if there are scientific reasons that prove that no working 10 ft speaker cable or 1 m interconnect can ever sound different from another working 10 ft speaker cable or 1m interconnect."
As I pointed out, the problems are to show that there are any audible differences and under what conditions.
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
I guess we all have our crosses to bear. This is not a "problem" for me. I enjoy my perceptions despite the lack of scientific support for them. If you can't do the same I feel sorry for you.
I do point out that Kerr asked a scientific question.
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
"Why do you need proof of audible differences?"
That's easy: to see if claims of audible differences can be substantiated.
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
Kerr asks:
"Why do you need proof of audible differences?"Pat answers:
"That's easy: to see if claims of audible differences can be substantiated."
I guess we all have our crosses to bear. This is not a "problem" for me. I enjoy my perceptions despite the lack of scientific support for them. If you can't do the same I feel sorry for you. You seem to "need" scientific validation for your subjective perceptions. Or is it you think others "need" to prove these things to you? They don't.
gosh I feel like I am repeating myself here.
Edits: 10/06/09
What has a desire to see if claims of audible differences can be substantiated have to do with how one enjoys music, performs music, and so on?
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
yeah right. Is this just your last word fettish rearing it's ugly head? You aren't even trying to fake having an argument.
That's what this forum is supposed to be about. Do you have a problem with that?
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
i do have a problem with your dishonesty though. If you ever decide to stop the bullshit and actually have a technical or scientific discussion about audio it would be quite refreshing.
But you are not, are you?
I am too busy listening to music, performing music, doing philosophical research, taking courses, as well as helping out with the house work, cooking, lawn work, shopping, and so on.
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
Let me guess - right between doing philosophical research and taking courses, right?
If you interpret that as a demand, that's your problem.
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
N/T
.
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
Imagine the time requirement to provide proof! Untold multitudes of tests run by Tom Nousaine personally, an AES peer reviewed paper etc etc. That's a major investment in time. I guess it's really silly to make demands for proof, since nothing short of the above will suffice.
I'm comfortable in the knowledge that not everything sounds the same and I guess the "objectivists" are comfortable with their beliefs. All's right with the world.
rather than finding out for yourself.
.
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
What is extraordinary about hearing differences in cables? Maybe you don't have "proof" you can hear the difference but I am sure that even you have experimented with cables and found at least subjectively that there is a difference, no? Time for you to pony up and tell me what you "think" you hear. I am not interested in you proving what you can or cannot hear at this point.
What CAN you hear the difference between?
I will go first if it makes it easier for you:
I can hear the differences clearly between speakers, room treatments, amps, preamps, sources (eg. different DACS/transports or different phonostages/cartridges/turntables), interconnect cables, speaker cables, digital cables, power conditioning or none but not so much with power cables and therefore I have about zero invested there. I don't hear conclusive evidence about tuning feet or racks either and so I have very little invested there as well.
Does what people think they hear qualify?
"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
Why not?
> What is extraordinary about hearing differences in cables? <
That's the question I was trying to ask earlier. Why is this considered extraordinary? Either there are thousands of "extraordinary" people that can hear differences in cables, or it's simply not an extraordinary feat.
I'll take your list and add the words "in some instances" to almost all of them. I can't always discern differences between certain components. That doesn't mean they aren't there; it just means I haven't been able to pick them out (talking about sighted auditions here).
...that forced choice DBTs do not remove small audible differences?
Validation and sensitivity.
If it was real science, you could.
Audio DBTs are at best pseudoscience and at worst parlor games to make audible differences disappear.
"Can you show me evidence that forced choice DBTs do not remove small audible differences?"
What?
"If it was real science, you could."
Gibberish.
"Audio DBTs are at best pseudoscience and at worst parlor games to make audible differences disappear."
You are a wackjob.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
--Charles Darwin
(nt)
If it's attack on anything - that would be on ignorance, closed-mindedness, pathological cheapness, and stupidity. All demostrated by cretins like yourself.
a fanatical devotion to the catholic church! Start again..... among our weapons....
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