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In Reply to: RE: AC Power posted by Lynn on May 07, 2008 at 19:36:47
** What is the technical basis for power conditioning, AC purifiers, etc.? **
Power factor correction, voltage spikes, surges, RFI and EMI. Ironically many of the garden variety products specify their capability in these areas. But as you may have guessed, many audiophile vendors leave their spec's up to the users' imagination.
Compare Furman spec (mainstream )
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=IT-REF_20i
to Shuntaya's (audiophile)
http://www.shunyata.com/Content/technical-HydraVrayspecs.html
** I have also read quite a few posts stating that a high quality power supply should isolate a component from AC issues. **
Some probably do, but as with many other audiophile products with zero (or near zero) specs, there is little guidance. Stuff like power factor correction, and surge suppression are fairly standard stuff that should be specified. I will rather go with mainstream mfr on stuff like this, an ineffective product could prove very costly in the event of real AC issue.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Follow Ups:
There's an interesting web page that shows the internals of a Shunyate Hydra Model-4 here . The manufacturer's literature of this device claims that it contains a "7-element 'Venom filter'". LOL!
The device has a garden variety circuit breaker in series, along with 0.1uF filter capacitors and metal oxide varistors (MOVs) across the outlets. The author of the above site lists the part numbers of the MOVs and capacitors. The Littelfuse MOV data sheet PDF can be found here . The part is in the fourth row under "standard models" (P/N TMOV20R130E). The Vishay capacitor data sheet PDF can be found here . It is in the last row (P/N F1710-410-10XX). The listed value of 0.01uF appears to be a misprint. It should be 0.1uF.
The capacitors are of the type specifically rated for mains operation. They have the property that if their maximum voltage rating is exceeded and they fail, they won't catch fire.
The MOVs act like an open circuit until they reach a critical voltage, above which they begin to act like a short. The original GE MOV application note from 1972 can be found here . Looking at the Littelfuse MOV data sheet, it appears that they begin to conduct (1 mA current) at a minimum peak voltage of 184 Volts. This happens to be the peak value of a 130VAC sine wave (they are rated at 130VAC). Also, it looks like they can withstand peak currents of up to 100A, which occurs at a maximum voltage of 340V peak.
The Furman device that theaudiohobby mentions above looks much more sophisticated. It appears to completely regenerate the AC.
Hi Andy,
This 10 Audio article has come up several times and been answered on these forums before in great detail. However, I will offer another reply here to answer the issues you raise, since you have referenced that article.
> > > "There's an interesting web page that shows the internals of a Shunyate Hydra Model-4 here. The manufacturer's literature of this device claims that it contains a "7-element 'Venom filter'". LOL! < < <
In 2005 I declined Mr. 10's offer of a "review" in exchange for us loaning him products. His response to my decline was clearly one of someone being affronted. He said with emphasis that he would get our product some other way and review it without our cooperation. It doesn't take more than a cursory read to see the effect my decline had on the tone and content of his comments.
He "reviewed" a product that was a long out of spec product by 2005, so there is no surprise that his photo's didn't match what we were producing, or the listed spec's on our web at that time. I wish once in a while people would question just for a moment, and not simply accept web-made-up negative information as accurate without looking a bit further. This fellow plowed ahead without question because we 'failed to accommodate' him.
There have been many advances within our products since the pictured H4 was made in 2002 and an entire board constructed with the multi-element filter array that is both pictured and described in detail on our web. That network did not exist within the first production run model that 10 likely purchased used, and wrote about in '05. Our listed specs and tech have been _exactly_ accurate on our web related to current production every step of the way.
> > "The device has a garden variety circuit breaker in series, along with 0.1uF filter capacitors and metal oxide varistors (MOVs) across the outlets." < < <
This is inaccurate. We use a Carling electro-magnetic breaker and there is nothing cheap or pedestrian about it. It is an extremely expensive part compared to any other type of breaker, thermal or otherwise on the market. And we do not use anybody's shelf capacitors, wiring or outlets. The capacitors are custom designed and bear our name. The outlets are our own design and spec, and the wiring is made for us to spec. out of solid CDA 101 copper. We have our own cryo treatment facility, our own connectors and multiple patents covering materials and technologies. 10 wanted to turn his "review" of a legitimate product into a home-depot project because of his angst.
Calling Hydras "Audiophile" products clearly skips the fact that they are more widely used in prominent professional recording, film and mastering studios than any other product of their kind--though Equitech has many applications in Pro as well.
Our industry reference list, professional endorsements and listed technologies are as well documented and explained as any product on the market could be. Yet all it takes is some ill-informed blogger with a chip on his shoulder to provide fodder for those eager to support their own perceptions.
Anyone with legitimate questions of any sort are always welcome to contact us directly. We have a well earned reputation among even the most (previously) skeptical engineers and electronics manufacturers who use and endorse our products. Our patents and tech are there for all to review and critique.
Regenerative products work great in theory. We don't believe they are as effective in practice. That said, I think both Furman and Equitech make excellent transformer based products. However, they are no more nor less technically legitimate than the products we produce without them.
Regards,
Grant
Shunyata Research
Power Plant Premier
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Power Products > Power Plant Premier
PS Audio Power Plant Premier
Dimensions
- 17" W x 16.5" D x 4" H
Weight
- 35 lbs
Nominal Input Voltage
- 105-135 (US) 215-245VAC (Europe/Asia)
Maximum Continuous Load
- 1200VA (US) 1500VA (Europe/Asia)
Dynamic Power Delivery
- 0.5 second > 3600VA (US) 5000VA (Europe/Asia)
Voltage Regulation
- +/- 0.5V (US) 1Vac (Europe/Asia)
Output Distortion Input 220-240VAC
- 1200VA Resistive load <0.9%
Output distortion 230V
- 240VAC 1200VA Reactive* load <0.9%
Output Distortion Input 110-130VAC
- 1200VA Resistive load <0.5%
Output distortion Input 110-130VAC
- 1200VA reactive load <0.5%
Output impedance
- <0.015 Ohm
Noise reduction (all zones)
- 100KHz-2MHz > 80dB
Efficiency @1200VA
- Resistive load > 80% Reactive load > 85%
Input Frequency
- 45-65Hz
Under voltage limit
- 90VAC (US) - 175VAC (Europe/Asia)
Over voltage limit
- 145VAC (US) - 275VAC (Europe/Asia)
Protection Modes
- L-N, L-G, N-G
Energy dissipation
- 2160J (US) 2142J (Europe/Asia)
Peak Current surge
- 144,000A (US) 84,000A (Europe/Asia)
Max Surge
- 6,000 Volts
Clamp level
- 330V (US) 800V (Europe/Asia)
Telco protection
- 320 Joules 395 volts
Coax insertion loss
- <1dB
DC trigger config
- Tip positive
DC trigger Voltage
- 5-15 volts dc
From Equitech
Model Q Specifications
.
Model #
Model
Name Load
Capacity
Input Line
Frequency
LIne Cord Plug
Chassis Inlet **
Output
Voltage
Circuit
Breakers
# Outlets
Type
Chassis
Dimensions
Weight
1RQ Q1000
1 kVA 15A 120V
60Hz
NEMA 5-15
C14
120/60V
1-10A 12-15A
16"x16"x3.5"
60 lbs
27 kg
1RQ-E
Q1000E
1 kVA
10A 230V
50/60Hz See Table
C14
230/115V
1-5A
12-C13 16"x16"x3.5"
40 x 40 x 8.75cm
60 lbs
27 kg
1.5RQ 1.5Q
1.5 kVA 15A 120V
60Hz
NEMA 5-15
C14
120/60V
1-15A 12-15A
16"x16"x3.5" 80 lbs
38 kg
2RQ 2Q
2 kVA 20A 120V
60Hz
NEMA 5-20
C20
120/60V
1-20A 10-15A
2-20A
16"x16"x3.5" 85 lbs
40 kg
2RQ-E
2QE
2 kVA
10A 208/240V
50/60Hz
See Table
C14
230/115V
1-10A
12-C13
16"x18"x5.25"
40 x 45 x 12.75cm
91 lbs
42 kg
2RQ-EA
2QEA
2 kVA
10A 208/240V
50/60Hz
See Table
C14
120/60V
1-20A
10-15A
2-20A 16"x18"x5.25"
40 x 45 x 12.75cm
91 lbs
42 kg
3RQ 3Q
3 kVA 20A 208/240V
60Hz
NEMA 6-20
C20
120/60V 1-10A
1-20A 10-15A
2-20A
16"x18"x5.25" 105 lbs
48 kg
3RQ-E
3QE
3 kVA
16A 208/240V
50/60Hz
See Table
C20
230/115V
1-5A
1-10A
10-C13
2-C19 16"x18"x5.25"
40 x 45 x 12.75cm
112 lbs
51 kg
3RQ-EA
3QEA 3 kVA
16A 208/240V
50/60Hz See Table
C20
120/60V 1-10A
1-20A 10-15A
2-20A 16"x18"x5.25"
40 x 45 x 12.75cm
112 lbs
51 kg
5RQ 5Q
5 kVA 30A 208/240V
60Hz
NEMA L6-30P
120/60V 1-10A
2-20A 14-15A
4-20A
17.25"x18"x7"
175 lbs
80 kg
5RQ-E
5QE
5 kVA
30A 208/240V
50/60Hz NEMA L6-30P 230/115V
1-5A
2-10A
13-C13
4-C19 17.25"x18"x8.75"
43 x 45 x 22cm
195 lbs
89 kg
5RQ-EA 5QEA
5 kVA 30A 208/240V
50/60Hz
NEMA L6-30P
120/60V 1-10A
2-20A 14-15A
4-20A
17.25"x18"x8.75"
43 x 45 x 22cm
195 lbs
89 kg
7.5RQ
7.5Q
7.5 kVA
40A 208/240V
60Hz
California Style
2P3W 50A 250V 120/60V 4-20A 16-15A
8-20A 17.25"x18"x8.75"
220 lbs
100 kg
7.5RQ-E 7.5QE
7.5 kVA 40A 208/240V
50/60Hz California Style
2P3W 50A 250V 230/115V 4-10A
14-C13
6-C19 17.25"x18"x8.75"
43 x 45 x 22cm
235 lbs
107 kg
7.5RQ-EA
7.5QEA
7.5 kVA
40A 208/240V
50/60Hz California Style
2P3W 50A 250V 120/60V 4-20A 16-15A
8-20A 17.25"x18"x8.75"
43 x 45 x 22cm
235 lbs
107 kg
10RQ 10Q
10 kVA 50A 208/240V
60Hz
California Style
2P3W 50A 250V 120/60V 5-20A 20-15A
10-20A 17.25"x18"x8.75" 245 lbs
111 kg
10RQ-E
10QE
10 kVA
50A 208/240V
50/60Hz California Style
2P3W 50A 250V 230/115V
5-10A
17-C13
8-C19 17.25"x18"x8.75"
43 x 45 x 22cm
260 lbs
118 kg
10RQ-EA 10QEA
10 kVA 50A 208/240V
50/60Hz California Style
2P3W 50A 250V
120/60V 5-20A 20-15A
10-20A
17.25"x18"x8.75"
43 x 45 x 22cm
260 lbs
118 kg
It's like you've been fed this line so long you actually believe that there isn't a higher standard which could/should be strived for. To me your logic is the equivalent of the following: as long as we are still making money as a lumber mill it is OK that bandsaw operators are lopping off fingers on our bandsaw that had the safety guard removed to improve throughput since we can always send them to the hospital to be rpaired as long as we dig the finger out and sew it back on quick enough.
Don't you think the problem of "grid issues" would be more effectively solved by redirecting the efforts of designing the worlds most perfect band aids toward designing equipment which doesn't require a band aid in the first place?
I have to ask if you even know who you are responding too here and why?
> > Lumping power conditioner manufacturers into the group called "audiophile vendors" sounds like a sick joke to me.> >
Where did *I* do that?
> > It's like you've been fed this line so long you actually believe that there isn't a higher standard which could/should be strived for. To me your logic is the equivalent of the following: as long as we are still making money as a lumber mill it is OK that bandsaw operators are lopping off fingers on our bandsaw that had the safety guard removed to improve throughput since we can always send them to the hospital to be rpaired as long as we dig the finger out and sew it back on quick enough.
Don't you think the problem of "grid issues" would be more effectively solved by redirecting the efforts of designing the worlds most perfect band aids toward designing equipment which doesn't require a band aid in the first place?> >
All I did was show that a few manufacturers of Power conditioners that are marketed toward the high end did in fact list relevant specs contrary to what the previous poster was asserting. Why are you babbling about band saws, band aided and grid issues?
This thread is a perfect example....
Your response to theaudiohobby's complaint
"But as you may have guessed, many audiophile vendors leave their spec's up to the users' imagination. "
is nothing but power conditioner specs to which I respond (quoted below), obviously jumping to the conclusion you were posting examples of audiophile vendors truly supplying complete specs on their audio equipment by supplying very complete specs to some power conditioners as a counterargument to theaudiohobby's original claim:
"Lumping power conditioner manufacturers into the group called "audiophile vendors" sounds like a sick joke to me."
to which you've responded with the intelligence revealing gem:
"Where did *I* do that?"
LOL! good stuff just like the other thread you bring up! Unfortunately, for me the comedy has likely now played its course. At least others who read this will understand why I stop responding here in the absence of the addition of at least a small kernel of an intelligent argument even if you don't Scott.
Cheers buddy. Thanks again for a good chuckle. Seriously.
Ugly
> > This thread is a perfect example....
Your response to theaudiohobby's complaint
"But as you may have guessed, many audiophile vendors leave their spec's up to the users' imagination. "> >
Dude, seriously, what are you sniffing? More to the point who are you quoting? This is audiohobby's post to which i responded in whole.
"In Reply to: RE: AC Power posted by Lynn on May 07, 2008 at 19:36:47
** What is the technical basis for power conditioning, AC purifiers, etc.? **
Power factor correction, voltage spikes, surges, RFI and EMI. Ironically many of the garden variety products specify their capability in these areas. But as you may have guessed, many audiophile vendors leave their spec's up to the users' imagination.
Compare Furman spec (mainstream )
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=IT-REF_20i
to Shuntaya's (audiophile)
http://www.shunyata.com/Content/technical-HydraVrayspecs.html
** I have also read quite a few posts stating that a high quality power supply should isolate a component from AC issues. **
Some probably do, but as with many other audiophile products with zero (or near zero) specs, there is little guidance. Stuff like power factor correction, and surge suppression are fairly standard stuff that should be specified. I will rather go with mainstream mfr on stuff like this, an ineffective product could prove very costly in the event of real AC issue."
Dude, get a clue!!!!!!
> > Dude, get a clue!!!!!! < <
Scott, in order to have a clue, you need to have ACTUAL AUDIO experience, and considering that Ugly always bases his "opinions" on nothing more than speculation ... well ... your asking far too much of him.
TB1
Whatsa matta loser? You hafta resort to personal insults since you have nothing to offer in the form of technical input? Classy! At least Scott is trying....
your instantly defensive, perhaps I struck a nerve.
OK ... Mr. Ugly, the subject is AC based noise reduction within an audio environment, so exactly how many PLCs have you heard to form your 'em ... informed opinion?
trying
TB1
OOOoo. Whos getting defensive?No need to ruin my sound and listen to your crappy PLC's. I am achieving rated SNR and have no known noise issues beyond what is expected from the equipment I use during normal low volume listening sessions. Why would I insert something guaranteed to have a negative impact on signal quality if it isn't needed? The only issues that mys system won't filter by design are extreely low frequency, ie brown outs, etc and show up more as a temporary reduction of dynamic range capabilities rather than a noise you might hear. I could help you design a system that allows you to reach your noise goals too but it'll cost you about $120 an hour including tax, and then you could use your PLC's for boat anchors like they are better at doing.
To put it another way. You can't afford the PLC setup I'd need to make an actual improvement in my system and neither can I. It would probably be cheaper to set up an alternative power source in my case as the power draw can approach several KW during peak transients. The ways I am often inclined to listen, while sipping a beer on the neighbors porch for example, will often require nearly that in RMS power as well.
> > To put it another way. < <
Well, Ugly, thats the beauty of living in your complete fantasy world, you can "put it" anyway you want.
TB1
I can see that your technical prowess will just be too much for me to overcome. Uncle.
As I suspected, not only are you stuck with trying to communicate using babay talk, it appears that any sentence more complex than a few words will throw you for a loop. Here is a hint: read my posts slowly and several times. What I said makes sense to those who understand English. Is English even your native language?
I'd rather be water boarded.
Suit yourself.
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