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64.12.116.141
Anyone compare these two speakers for low power 5-Watt Set use?
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if you want modern performance out of a similar design and much better sounds, build a Pi4 with a 2226 and a B&C driver. Great for small SET use and blow the doors off anything K.
the Cornwalls in 'standard-pine' form (15" bass) have only one thing going for them, greater efficiency. I'm not sure that more finished cabinets were any better acoustically.
The Fortes are taller and slimmish by comparison, and IIRC are much better balanced, AND way less shouty, range-deeper, and the enclosure is a lot quieter.
The Cornwalls can be improved, quieten the enclosure* and horns, *can be combined with adding some Vb and rear venting using a 6th order assisted alignment, IE Eq'd at line level, giving mid 30's bass.
Most of these things would also help the Fortes, though the line level bass boost could be down nearer 25hz.
Are the latest big memorial KHorns given quiet cabinets?
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
http://www.theanalogdept.com/tim_bailey.htm
The unfinished "Decorator" Cornwalls (at least the 1974 models I used to have) were ensconsed in fairly nice (albeit unbraced) birch plywood cabinets.
The Cornies are true 3-ways, too... not a whizzer to be found, although both the MR horn/driver (an Atlas PA compression driver in mine) and the HF horn (the somewhat redoubtable EV T-35, AlNiCo in my case) are both seriously flawed IMNSHO. They can sound great with excellent program material and sympathetic amplification, but IME one will find specific recordings that are unbearable to listen to.
Case in point: Allison Krauss' live "Ghost in This House". Oy.
(and it is NOT poorly recorded)
all the best,
mrh
Personally, I prefer the Cornwalls. If you do get a Forte, I do not believe they are as efficient. Also, the original Forte has a better bass than the Forte 2s.
Good Luck
I would have to second Paully on this one. I bought my Choruses from a friend and he had a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of choruses for sale at the same time at close to the same price. At first I thought I wanted the the cornwalls because of the deeper bass. They sounded better at his place, the chrouses sounded a bit dull by comparison. Well, when I got the cornwalls home and set up they nearly ripped my head off they were so bright. My is room smaller and brighter than his. No matter what I did the cornwalls were too bright. I remembered how the choruses were less bright at his place, so I called my friend and explained my problem and asked if I could try the choruses instead. He agreed and I hauled the cornwalls back to his place and the choruses back to mine. They are still here today. A world of difference. They fit the acoustics of my room perfectly.
So...... the moral of this story is take a good look at the room you will be using them in before you decide on one or the other. The choruses are great speakers and deserve serious consideration. The one thing I think the cornwalls do have the upper hand on is the bass. They definetly go deeper than the choruses. Big suckers though. The choruses have a more room friendly foot print if your listening room is small.
My listening room is only 14 x 20 feet. I have sensitive ears & definitely do not need razor sharp & over bright mids & highs. Distortion also drives me up the wall. Mid range fuzziness is a show stopper for me too. Less bass is ok. I do not care for heavy bass, just musical bass.
A SET is more difficult to match up with speakers IMO plus I do not believe the full range single driver route is for me.
Altec 604s is the hot ticket by many, but then the cabs must be found or built. Or, $2000+ with cabs and the cabs are huge. Perhaps the Chorus II is the best bet. I understand original Chorus is flawed in the bass registeres by a poor designed port.
By a good bit so I think on the size factor you will be fine. Any of the Klipsch speakers mentioned should be fine from what I have heard and read. Cornwall, Forte (though I though they were less sensitive), and the Chorus II. As I say when this comes up, shop craigslist, etc... and pick up a pair for $400 to $450. I seriously doubt you would take a loss if you resell. If you had to take a $25-$50 loss on resell (pocket change in this hobby) consider it an audition fee.
Do post on the Klipsch forum. Those guys are rabid and I got to do my first auditioning that convinced me to take the Klipsch plunge by asking if there was someone who would let me listen.
Ya, not so good. I explained the amps I like, sonics desired and stated an example as 12AU7 is a show stopper for me. That person's reply advised 12AU7s are great. So, they don't own quality to be able to reply with any accuracy. In fact, if one tries to reply directly, the forum wont allow it with new members. BS......... I am out of there.
Sorry they didn't meet your expectations. I found them to be a very knowledgeable bunch and the forum worked very well. Quite a few actually tend to favor solid state over tubes there and were friendly and helpful. But everyone forms their own opinion.
The persons are great. The site does not allow a reply. Tried four times and changed password twice. No good.
Of course I've read numerous times of your opinion of the 12au7, but you seem to lose sight of the fact that it is your opinion even if it is a fashionable one in these parts lately. There are/have been plenty of designers who feel differently than you do who have as much or more credibility than you do. You are entitled to your opinion and to share it of course, but to say that someone that feels differently about the 12au7 doesn't "own quality" is taking your own opinion a little too seriously IMO. There is more than one good sound, even if there is only one for you.
BTW I use 12au7's and Altec 604's, so you can cross those off your list.
Dave
for quality. I'm using selected NOS JAN 6189's.
Brimar 13D5 are the best I've ever heard, not that there aren't others, mine were close to characterless, and kwyet.
If your stuck with 12.6 volts filament, ie not two lots of 6.3, a 12AY7 might be a better choice - for a CF buffer. Depending on the ratio of input Z to output Z, etc. IIRC a 12au7 Cf'd gives ~ 200 ohms, and a 12ax7 600, so I guess a Y is gonna be in between.
It's not just what people hear, and they're not as bad as some make out mind, but there are other tubes with similar capacities which by design are more linear.
And, it is your system that you're enjoying.
;-)!
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
http://www.theanalogdept.com/tim_bailey.htm
If one likes some non-linearity and a lot of tube warmth go for it. Toss in some ceramic coupling capacitors and experience even more of it.
Well, the folks at Marantz, McIntosh, Brook, Eico, Fisher, Scott, Decware and Bottlehead among many others would disagree with you but WTF do they know? Certainly they're a bunch of hacks that have no idea what "quality" sound is, so aren't we lucky we have you to set them straight definitively.
Dave
It is a fact, the 12AU7 does not perform as well as other more linear tubes and about everyone that performs DIY knows it. It is also a fact many amps are sent out with low grade tubes as a cost consideration. The audiophile community knows this, is perfectly acceptable and will upgrade with other tubes if desired or affordable.
Seeing your are chiming in here as an expert, how many DIY home entertainment amplifiers and upgrades with tubes have you performed?
I am not claiming to be an expert, and I am also not claiming that my opinion is definitive. I am pointing out that you seem to assume that your opinion is more definitive than it is.
Dave
Not being a chump, but my opinion is rather spot on. If I missed the rare exception that has a possibility the 12AU7 is the pinnicle of that low mu lot in one certain application, I missed it.
As for arguing on this site, I prefer not to pursue it.
You said Altec 604s were off the list. The 604's are not off of my list, but I am hesitant of the $2K+ and looking for alternates. I have heard the Altec 604 speakers with a pair of factory stock Heathkit W7s and pair of SP2 pre-amplifiers.
I believe the Altec 604's were not given full opportunity to perform as the SP-2 is not exactly 'Ivy League' here is it Dave.
I said they were off the list since I like them and also use 12au7's, therefore they must produce bad distorted sound just like the 12au7's.
Dave
Again Dave, a less than great amplifier driving a quality speaker will not allow the speaker to perform to its potental. Oh, same for the source. We match tube amplifiers to speakers too.
I have been repairing and modifying Scott, Eico, Fisher and many other amplifiers for years. FM tuners too. Many years, I don't need a schematic to follow. Plenty of DIY amps. Lots of tubes including pentode, tetrode, triode connected, true triode in PP & SET applications. So the fact is I not only do I know what I am talking about, I am quite good at it.
Explain your skills as you are claiming to be an expert & especially so regarding tubes. I await you claimed educated & professional response.
Please support this statement, you've made it twice.Dave
Edits: 11/24/08
I am an expert on 12AU7's. The tube is not a top performer. As for vintage equipment & factory build, I am very good at upgrading the factory performance with a few exceptions. I would not modify McIntosh, but would repair it as close to as possible to factory design & appearance. In fairness regarding the original components, high-end did not have availibility of some, repeat some of the high quality parts available today.
And you Dave? You mentioned Scott, Eico, Fisher, etc. Please explain the design attributes and deficiencies you have apparently noted including the various tubes used in the designs. Comments on the factory audio iron would be interesting as well.
"design attributes and deficiencies you have apparently noted including the various tubes used in the designs"
Putting words in my mouth, apparently because without doing so you have little to say.
My point is simple, hopefully someone with your vast experience could comprehend it. Your thoughts on good sound are your opinion just as anybody else's are. Your idea of "upgrading factory performance" is exactly that, your idea of it. Maybe not mine and quite likely not that of the original designer (or of many others). The suggestion that your opinion is correct and that those whose opinion differs haven't heard "quality sound" is ridiculous. I'm very surprised that in all that experience you have failed to realize something as fundamental as that.
Dave
You have a strong opinion. I want to read about your conclusion of this 12AU7 tube family and I suspect others are getting more interested too although not the question I originally asked about Klipsch speakers.
So, share your experiences you are telling me and to others here at AA. I am also interested in your reference regarding vintage amplifier designers chosing the 12AU7 for superior sonics. I have not dismissed your opinion, but it does appear your are dismissing my opinion and absolutely my original post.
I ask 'what various tubes in the 12AU7 tube types you are familiar with in home entertainment amplifiers'? How do you compare to other similar types?
As for your reference to what I preceive is good sound is and has been only my opinion. I find you are trying to change the subject again or 'there You go again'.
You missed the direction my original post. I do not seek the sonics of the 12AU7. Others may identify with that and help me carefully chose a speaker system based on their experiences with that tube. I am reading with great interest Timbo in Oz's reply.
Your posts have nothing to do with my original question regarding Klipsch speakers, but answer the questions now that you assumed the position of an authority on 12AU7 tubes. I simply stated I do not care for them.
No you didn't, not in the post that I replied to anyway.I've quoted you several times, but one last time-
"That person's reply advised 12AU7s are great. So, they don't own quality to be able to reply with any accuracy."I have no problem with your opinion and I am not dismissing it. I have a problem with the suggestion that your opinion represents "quality" and differing opinions mean people "don't own quality". It's that simple (yet you don't seem to get it yet).
My reference was to vintage and modern amplifier designers that chose/choose to use 12au7's. I'm sure in your vast experience you know which models I am referring to. If your contention is that they chose/choose the 12au7 because they agree with you that it is categorically a bad tube but want bad sound in their products, please feel free to support that. Otherwise it's fair to assume that they have a different view than you.
Okay, time for you to change the subject and/or suggest that I'm saying something different again...
Dave
Edits: 11/25/08 11/25/08
12AU7's in the signal path will not represent what I am seeking to hear thru the speakers. So, why would I use that 12AU7 post as a reference?
I do not consider 12AU7's the ultimate performer as the tube performs with slight smearing of the audio- more so in very common RC coupling, less so in not so common cathode follower. Some call it warm sounding. Not so great in a home entertainment amplifier & especially so for voice. I like to hear accurate & clear open sonics with being musical at the same time. This does not dismiss others do not like 12AU7s and if they hear greatness, I am pleased they are in high spirits. I seek a different direction with my experience.
I have performed A/B tests with five listeners over the years in different amplifiers. All reported the 12AU7 from various manufactures was veiled vs the E80CC. Same with a few 6SN7's with an octal to 9-pin adapter. That is interesting, but I do not normally post findings like that. Kind of unscientific, you think? The 12AU7 tube was in part developed for Collins Radio back in about 1946-47. It is interesting Collins Radio requested RCA to improve the tube for lower distortion and that resulted in the 5814 tube. But, whatever. Perhaps the Collins engineer was wrong along with RCA as applied in certain audio amplifiers.
You still have not explained why you think the 12AU7 is a high quality tube as applied by vintage amplifier designers with 'high credibility'. That is because you can not explain it and apparently have not established other points of reference. For you to apparently suggest establishing a point of reference that can serve the many is impossible is rediculous.
How about your credibility sir.
"You still have not explained why you think the 12AU7 is a high quality tube as applied by vintage amplifier designers with 'high credibility'. That is because you can not explain it and apparently have not established other points of reference. For you to apparently suggest establishing a point of reference that can serve the many is impossible is rediculous."There have been and still are plenty of highly successful designs using the 12au7, produced by people with, yep, higher credibility than you. I'm not suggesting you lack it, I'm just pointing out the obvious. I'm not going to make a list, I know you know what they are. They did/do not make those designs while holding the opinion you describe of the 12au7. Therefore a contrary opinion does exist, and in fact enjoys a wide acceptance based on the successes of those designs. Are you going to dispute that?
Dave
Edits: 11/25/08
Contrary opinions are what helps makes the world a better place.
Illogical. The Altec 604's are no 12AU7 like performer. Tannoy & Altec 604's are without question some of the best speakers ever manufactured from what I read.
You mean with those terrible distorting horns? Only people that don't know "quality" sound would like those.
Dave
You may also want to consider the Quartets. These are slightly shorter than the Choruses with the same footprint. I own these and the Forte's; the latter has deeper base but the mid and uppers are nearly the same. Since the construction, size and drivers of the Chorus are nearly the same as the Quartets, they may fit your needs as well as the Chorus. Have fun!
I second the Quartet. I'm using a pair in my second system. The bass doesn't go down as deep but has good slam. The mids can get squawky but some plumber's putty will help that.
The Forte is not as efficient at the Cornwall, I would estimate 5dB less.
Klipsch raised the claims on the Forte to 98dB, but I think not. The Forte goes deeper in the bass, and is less than half the interior volume, so it has to be less efficient than they claim.
I'm sure someone will jump in here and claim to get room filling levels with his SET #45 amplifier on his Forte, but it won't be me.
But don't forget the Chorus II. That was the "sucessor" to the Cornwall and is a pretty good speaker. I enjoy mine and might be worth throwing into the mix. I have seen them for $400 on Craigslist and when you feel like it you can upgrade the crossover. I can run them with 2 watts no problem.Post this, or do a search, on the two-channel forum at Klipsch.com and you will get some more answers.
Edits: 11/22/08
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