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In Reply to: RE: "Can you do better than a pair of big Sound Labs electrostats?" posted by Analog Scott on March 02, 2023 at 11:37:28
Yes....the 'curve' of performance / cost goes FLAT at some point.........No more performance increase or microscopically little......for large increases in cost.
Everyone has to decide on that point for him or her self.......
Too much is never enough
Follow Ups:
"No more performance increase or microscopically little......for large increases in cost.
Everyone has to decide on that point for him or her self"
If we are talking about accuracy the point of "no more performance increase" is entirely objective and measurable. We have long since been there for amplification and digital sources. We have more recently arrived there with DSP. Even with transducers we are pretty much there. Speakers like the Kii system and the Sanders leave very little room for audible improvement when set up to their maximum potential.
And the price point at which there is pretty much no more room for objective improvement in accuracy is well under $100K. And this reality coexists with power cords that are prices at $40K and do nothing to improve the performance of an audio system.
As for personal choices I think they simply involve more than just pure objective accuracy in the performance of the stereo system. I personally have as much money invested in euphonic colorations for my system as I do for the basic system. And that is a far more fuzzy area when it comes to objective performance.
But these half million dollar SS amplifiers offer nothing in terms of accuracy over well designed SS amps costing 1/100th the price. They offer audiophile status and maybe just maybe looks.
Many of the mega buck speaker systems simply perform objectively not as well as the systems I cited. Someone may like them more. Preferences are inarguable. But they will in almost all cases not be as objectively accurate and low in distortion.
"If we are talking about accuracy the point of "no more performance increase" is entirely objective and measurable. We have long since been there for amplification and digital sources. We have more recently arrived there with DSP. Even with transducers we are pretty much there. Speakers like the Kii system and the Sanders leave very little room for audible improvement when set up to their maximum potential."
I had no idea our technology for measuring "accuracy" in audio components, especially speakers, had come so far.
If by "accuracy" you mean the lowest measurable distortion, wouldn't Class D amps be the winners? And DSP?
And speakers - there are so many different designs - are you talking about merely the flattest frequency response?
And beyond measurable distortion, what about "fidelity to the recording', or what sounds most like real music to you, which was what HP and TAS were all about?
JA in Stereophile uses music he's recorded and the measurements he takes don't always agree with what he hears.
I thought the "objective accuracy" arguements died with Arny Krueger.
The Lucky Audiophile
"I had no idea our technology for measuring "accuracy" in audio components, especially speakers, had come so far."
It's not the 80s anymore. It really has come that far
"If by "accuracy" you mean the lowest measurable distortion, wouldn't Class D amps be the winners? And DSP?"
There are many class D amps that fit the bill. Once any component's distortions and non linearities fall below the thresholds of human hearing its mission accomplished. Anything beyond that is overkill. Plenty of amps, preamps, and digital components are there.
"And speakers - there are so many different designs - are you talking about merely the flattest frequency response?"
No! In fact we have reached the point with DSP that frequency response isn't that much of an issue. What is an issue is directionality and changes in frequency response off axis in relation to on axis.
"And beyond measurable distortion, what about "fidelity to the recording', or what sounds most like real music to you, which was what HP and TAS were all about?"
Measurable distortion and fidelity to the recording are in effect the same thing. What sounds like live music is an overly vague and highly impractical reference. It's a misguided philosophy. Particularly when folks like HP who apparently was willfully ignorant on the science of human aural perception make the huge mistake of conflating objective accuracy with the subjective perception of "realism"
"JA in Stereophile uses music he's recorded and the measurements he takes don't always agree with what he hears."
Despite his use of his own recordings his comparisons suffer from the unavoidable unreliabilities of long term aural memory
"I thought the "objective accuracy" arguements died with Arny Krueger."
Arny was a whole who was in over his head with n the subject of audio. There's really nothing to argue about when it comes to what is objectively more or less accurate. What any of us like is subjective. Also inarguable. Most arguments stem from a lack of understanding about how humans hear, process and remember sound. And that is sad
You wrote,
"Most arguments stem from a lack of understanding about how humans hear, process and remember sound. And that is sad."
Geez, it almost sounds like you know something about this. Can you elaborate about your understanding of these things? Or are you just blowing hot air?
it seemed to me that back in the day really high end systems were purchased for ones own enjoyment .... now they are like a Guy with a stray on tan , pearly whitened teeth , purple velvet jacket and paints walking a Leopard down fifth avenue in new york ..... it for show .... its to win a pissing contest.
( Davey any comment ? )
The more things change the more they stay the same.A rich man has about as much chance of getting into Audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle.
Edits: 03/02/23
but I have no idea what I was listening to.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Not everyone shares yours.
Not everyone shares your preferences either. Same goes for your audio reviewer heroes. Preferences vary so no one's preferences are definitive or better than anyone else's. And I really don't care if my preferences line up with any other individual.
OTOH objective accuracy is inarguable. Unfortunately very many audiophiles and audio reviewers fail to understand the difference between objective accuracy and their own personal preferences. HP was a poster child for that failure in basic understanding.
Preferences vary so no one's preferences are definitive or better than anyone else's. And I really don't care if my preferences line up with any other individual.
Exactly my point!
OTOH objective accuracy is inarguable.
Objective accuracy? I've yet to attend any concert with single file seating!
Clearly, the two inmates who quickly sold or immediately sent back their 10Es would disagree with your assessment. ;)
Then you can lecture me about it. Your passive aggressive superiority bullshit is really transparent. I was just calling you out in it.
As for concerts in single file...-.. do you really not know the difference between stereo recording and playback and a live acoustic concert? Or is this just more of your smarmy passive aggressive bullshit? Sometimes it really is hard to tell when you are being an idiot or when you are being a dick.
In case you really don't understand the difference between a live concert and stereo playback they are in a single file line because the Sanders are highly directional speakers above the bass which is an asset as it reduces room interactions. As someone who owned Acoustats and now owns Sound Labs you should be familiar with the one person sweet spot that comes with them.
As someone who owned Acoustats and now owns Sound Labs you should be familiar with the one person sweet spot that comes with them.
That was true of the 2+2s I owned years ago but not even close with the U790s.
If you don't have a sweet spot with the Sound Labs you have them set up wrong or you are fooling yourself. Curved panels don't change that fact. I know, curved panel electrostatic speakers are all I had before getting the Sanders. My A3s are still in the living room. They have a sweet spot. It's the basic nature of stereo playback.
When you discover some of the modern day DSPs then we can talk about how the sweet spot is affected by that.
A3s were discontinued twenty years ago and are quite different than U790s.
The difference is one of magnitude. The ideal seating area with mine is not measured in millimeters. ;)
The A-3s are not discontinued. They have been "updated" over the years. Read for yourself. Link provided. "Audiophile 745 The A-3PX" Do you see the A-3 there? Same speaker essentially. Same driver dimensions, same specs, same power handling etc.
So here is a challenge to you. Instead of making yet another smarmy obnoxious passive aggressive "I'm better than you" type comment how about explaining to me and any other interested reader exactly what technology or design features makes the U 790 exempt from a sweet spot that does not exist in the A-3s?
Other than a marginal increase in bass extension what exactly are the meaningful differences between the A-3s of the past, the current A-3/Audiophile 745, the Audiophile 945, the U 745 and your U 790?
"meaningful" being the key word. Here is a hint, a change in the transformers won't change the radiation patterns of the drivers and make the sweet spot magically disappear. Neither will using steel poles instead of wood as the frames. As if steel was a better choice...
But anyway, let's see you actually talk about real issues in speaker design rather than displaying your typical smarmy passive aggressive arrogance.
I'm not holding my breath...
Roger West has been selling essentially the same basic design since the incarnation of Sound Lab. Not saying that is a bad thing but your smarmy dismissal of his A-3s is quite indicative of your attitude and lack of understanding of the speaker's design and ironic given your speakers are really not that much different.
It's kinda comforting to know that geezer-audiophile-passion continues to burn bright on AA.
I suppose so. Looks like Estat's tongue ended up stuck to the poll despite not taking my dare.
Sound Labs are very nice sounding speakers for 20th century technology. But none of them magically make the sweet spot a non issue. Not to mention they don't magically make the basic physics of bass in a room go away. There's good reason why just about every other maker of electrostatic speakers moved on to hybrid designs.
Ironically 21st century DSP technology with the Sanders 10E does fix a lot of the inherent problems with stereo playback that relate to the limits and issues of a sweet spot.
Some geezers are stuck in the 1980s and some of us are actually keeping up on cutting edge technology. It's much easier to do when you eliminate the distractions of audio bullshit like magic rocks and $40K power cords.
We have reached a point where we need rubber boots that reach up to our necks to wade through the bullshit that has taken over the high end audio industry. I would compare many of these geezer audiophiles to flat earthers but I don't want to insult the flat earthers. They at least have come up with some elaborate all be it ridiculous explanations for their bullshit. As you can see here, some of these geezer audiophiles don't even make that effort.
I think we reached the rubber boots point many years ago. Reviewers and marketing are intertwined with the manufacturers in very weird way. There is so much dishonesty and self deception that it's extremely difficult for younger folks and/or newly interested people to enter the hobby. Thus we have "geezer audiophiles" (I like that term!) providing the narrative and just making the whole situation worse.
Dave.
When you don't have the knowledge posing is the next best option. Only his hairdresser knows for sure. Oh, wait, he is the hairdresser! Scotty is our very own audiophile hater and part of the QAnon cabal. He thinks if you say something, no matter how ignorant, often enough eventually someone will believe it.Never smarten up a chump.
Edits: 03/04/23 03/04/23
..... thats brutal
Brutal perhaps...- But is it wrong? What makes audiophile rejection of an entire field of science any less dumb than flat earthers' rejection of science? The parallels are substantial. What separates them? Honest question
Nt
"I suppose so. Looks like Estat's tongue ended up stuck to the poll despite not taking my dare."
Touché!
Seriously, over the years I've found both you fellows to be good guys. And I agree with your last paragraph.
The A-3s are not discontinued.
Same driver dimensions...
Nope. Compare again. Many differences in core construction other than outward dimensions.
Live your own fantasy! I'm glad I no longer listen with head-in-a-vise. :)
When it comes to any meaningful knowledge on the speaker design you have nothing to offer. Thank you for proving my point.
Nt
maybe there's one of them tiny audiophiles seated between those two?
Also in a tee.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
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