 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
104.129.198.54
In Reply to: RE: Yes, - the products are designed to produce ""good sound" posted by Sordidman on April 19, 2019 at 09:17:13
Don't confuse an open mind with an empty mind subject to input from charlatans.Many years ago. I chose to learn how this gear works. How to design and build it. How to quantify it's performance.
What qualifies you to dictate what is scientific practice. I see nothing listed in you back ground that shows any scientific education or experience.
You are defining science to be what you want it to represent, not what the established scientific community has defined for 1000 years so far.
You think that random uncontrolled listening tests full of external influences are scientific. Hardly. Listening tests certainly be a scientific and to have any real value that have to be. That's not what you seem to be doing. You read consumer blog and press articles that lack any accreditation and form your opinions of gear from that. Yes, you do ultimately listen, but you go into that armed with the idea the gear is something special based on what you read. It's called BIAS.
How abut a DBT where we switch between a USB isolator in and out or between two different USB cables and tally the results using the rules of statistics and probability. Do you have a problem with a test like that and if so why?
Because that is the true scientific test, not a wine and cheese event sponsored by the local audiophile shop intorducing a new vendor.
Edits: 04/19/19 04/19/19 04/19/19Follow Ups:
It might help your gross lack of understanding of what the scientific method is, and how we come to reach conclusions through a process of hypothesizing, varied testing with controls, and the gathering of evidence. Additionally, understanding this, may help you to also understand that science is dynamic, always changing, and conclusions and results change over time with better and more thorough testing.
Namely that science is fluid and you can have GOOD science and bad science.
By the way, this is all being performed by the people that you are so criticizing, (with zero data and evidence on your part: read: WILD speculations). John is developing measuring tools to analyze high frequency current leakage and noise that feeds into the digital file player as well as back into the AC mains.
"What qualifies you to dictate"
I am not dictating anything, and no one needs to have qualifications to correct you on the definition of what science and the scientific method is. If you'd like, - you can go ahead and look it up here and post it, - but a practitioner of science and the scientific method is decidedly something that the typical electronics engineer doesn't normally do in their work. An EE who is a designer may or may not.... But certainly even a practitioner of science has no right to re-define an established definition that is universally accepted and excludes everything that is not science.
"You are defining science to be what you"
That is a lie. The scientific community doesn't define science, it practices it. Again, - the scientific community as individuals in practice may or may not conduct good science. As we've seen with in the USA especially, - there's a lot of bad science being conducted.
Why don't YOU DO SOME SCIENCE yourself and test the product instead of speculating.
From your posts, you are so incredibly closed minded. YOU are making claims about products that YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT!! This is simply ignorance. I challenge you to back up your CLAIMS with scientific evidence.
You have never heard this product, you have never held this product in your hand, you've never opened up the case, - you have ZERO experience with this product and yet, - you're making claims about it's efficacy.
You're calling the designer a charlaton and making a claim that these products don't work. So I ask you, - in many ways the isoRegen is similar to the Intona USB isolator designed for the computing industry. It also has an added power supply on the output stage to send 5v of "cleaner" DC power wherein the Intona does not. Anyway, - are you also calling the Intona ineffective in it's application(s) outside the audio industry?
Of course I would have no problems with a DBT on the isoRegen.
And please, - stop it with your childish sarcasm re: wine and cheese and the local audio shop bull...... This kind of ridiculous hyperbole only undermines your arguments.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
You claim to be a musician.So again what is your technical or scientific background?
Just because some audiophile rag states a technical claim you believe it?
Yep, keep drinking the Koolaid!
Edits: 04/20/19
""So again what is your technical or scientific background?""
Is there one needed? Is it not possible to follow the scientific method without technical degrees? Is a speculation from a chemical scientist more valuable here than an experienced evidence gathering listener who has engaged comparative analysis and research?
Your wild claim that none of these products can possibly work is based on what evidence? Are you just blindly following other mad speculators?
""Just because some audiophile rag states a technical claim you believe it?""
Do you have a quote from an audiophile "rag" that you'd like post? Do you have any evidence of someone making a "technical claim." Just because some EE in an unrelated area shouts some crazy speculating remarks about audiophile products in general, - (absent of any EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER), you're going to believe them?
Anytime your "so called" scientists render an opinion about anything, - they are somehow more reliable and trustworthy over anybody else, - even if they have no evidence, have not researched, and have done no testing?
Yes, - you need help understanding the difference between science, and then speculative opinions: heresay from a few naysayers.
Underlying any scientific investigation is curiosity: you should be asking yourself, - "why does almost everyone who uses these products, assert that they are effective? What tests can I run that would either prove or disprove their effectiveness? What is inside these boxes, and how do they work?
You stand with the religious zealots, who are shouting "the sun revolves around the earth," forming opinions about so much you are unwilling to investigate. This is zealotry and cult-of-personality charlatanism.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"Your wild claim that none of these products can possibly work is based on what evidence?"It's called an education and many years of experience in electrical engineering. Specifically professional audio and video systems. Most of the claims made by these audiophile accessory vendors are in conflict with well proven established theory and practice.
They can fool the non technical types but not the knowledgeable. Tell me why is the EE community as a whole always against these products. Just look on any open forum and see who the naysayers are. The only so called "engineers" who support these disputed ideas are those who make and sell the products.
And then where is the technical evidence these products do work? I'm not interested in placebo or expectation biased reports. If John is such a great engineer, why can't he show us some calibrated measurements of the improvements at the end of the chain where it counts?
Edits: 04/22/19 04/22/19
""It's called an education and many years of experience in electrical engineering.""
And you think that that constitutes EVIDENCE??
You're even more bamboozled than i thought....
""Most of the claims made by these audiophile accessory vendors are in conflict with well proven established theory and practice.""
That is a lie, and I have demonstrated such in previous post. As I stated previously, - these products are highly inspired by, and are almost the SAME THING as long established and proven products in computer networking and the computing industries.
So why did you repeat this again, after i already demonstrated that you are wrong? Why do you continue to assert the same thing, - without offering any counter argument to that point? AHHHH, - because you're religious zealot, a tool of a naysaying pseudo-scientists who also preach and don't follow any principles of good investigation.....
""They can fool the non technical types but not the knowledgeable. Tell me why is the EE community as a whole always against these products""
No one is fooling anyone. The EE community is not "against" these products, - they're used everyday, and enjoy a great following. You should investigate the Intona, EMO Networking isolators, Linear power supplies...
""The only so called "engineers" who support these disputed ideas are those who make and sell the products.""
The only people who dispute these ideas are a few religious zealots who are not researching the products, - and certainly don't understand them.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
All you do is claim they work. You further claim others agree. This is not evidence but rather an opinion.
And you are twisting around what I am saying. I am not saying isolation devices are not valid products. I am not saying linear power supplies are not of a benefit in sensitive analog devices.
What I am saying is the application of these products by Uptone Audio and Empirical Audio are taking a legitimate engineering problem way out of context to sell unnecessary products.
Show me proof of improvement on a typical home HiFi system. That means a measured improvement in what ever the product is claimed to improve. Noise, distortion, whatever.
Anectodotal evidence is evidence......
Murderers go to jail... yes, - piled up anectodotal evidence.
I have compared an isoRegen with it in place, and with it out. I have compared it with 3 different sources. I have listened to and compared to 4 different of John's sources, both in my systems and in others.
There you go, - see above.....
""What I am saying is the application of these products by Uptone Audio and Empirical Audio are taking a legitimate engineering problem way out of context to sell unnecessary products""
What is the engineering "problem?" please be specific. Your statement makes the "claim" that these products are unnecessary. How do you know? How have you applied these products in this context? I am glad that you have finally admitted that these "types" of products applied elsewhere, - (like the medical industry), - are very effective. So, - if they are effective in the medical industry, - why not experiment further with them and TRY them in another area?
This is what HUNDREDS of audiophiles have found. They have bought these cheap little USB boxes that have been very effective in Galvanic Isolation in the medical industry, - deploying them in their USB chain has improved the overall sound in their system.
""Show me proof of improvement on a typical home HiFi system.""
Nope, - you show me proof. You are the one making the claim. Intona, for example, is making the claim that these provide galvanic isolation in the USB chain.
""typical home HiFi system"
That depends on what you mean by typical hi-fi system. Most of the posters here are talking about a high-performance hi-fi system. I don't call that typical. I call a Sony/NHT floor standers, a typical hi-fi system, - where no one would ever buy an Intona or a isoRegen as they cost more than their CD player.......
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"Intona, for example, is making the claim that these provide galvanic isolation in the USB chain."And they do. That is an accurate claim.
Now what about the claim that it improves audio reproduction. How exactly does it do that. What is the attribute it is improving on. What is the particular distortion it is reducing? Than can all be measured and quantified. But they, the audio specific vendors, all fail to show it. Why?
Edits: 04/22/19 04/22/19
""And they do. That is an accurate claim.""
Whew.... that took like 20 posts.....
""Now what about the claim that it improves audio reproduction."
That's not the claim: what you wrote above is untrue.
"What is the particular distortion it is reducing?"
See above, - it is not reducing any.
""Than can all be measured and quantified"
Yes, - it is, and it does, - after all, - (now get this), it is an USB signal.
""But they, the audio specific vendors, all fail to show it.""
Also, - untrue. They demonstrate it clearly.
Thank you for playing....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I pointed out way back these the engineering terms used by these audio vendors are legitimate. It didn't take 20 posts. But it remains fact there is no published test data that proves effectiveness in audio reproduction.
That fact that you "hear it" is proof to you but no one else. That's why we measure any technology by science and mathematics.
If Uptone or Empirical audio could show evidence of audio improvement don't you think they would? What is the downside to that. The fcat is they can't because it's not there.
"But it remains fact there is no published test data that proves effectiveness in audio reproduction."
But there is in the medical industry....
And that is the same claim made, - that it provides galvanic isolation.
And it may POSSIBLY work in audio reproduction....
It is not universalizable. Like the great Ayre company does, this isolation is provided in the DAC itself, - so the effectiveness of the Intona may be mitigated due to that fact. Also, - of course, - low performance audio reproduction will not benefit as well.
""That's why we measure any technology by science and mathematics.""
First, - these devices are measured, - the noise level is measured and reduced. Second, - just because that is the case, - whether that noise reduction makes it's way into the sound that comes out of the speakers is not certain. Do we really need to go over why?
And again, - we take this back to the point of making measurements: in that the measurements we have now do NOT ACCURATELY reflect the efficacy of the product, - that's why we use other tools to judge!!!
""If Uptone or Empirical audio could show evidence of audio improvement don't you think they would?""
It's up to the listener to properly apply: see above. The evidence has been demonstrated by the comparative listening done by the testers.
Uptone or Intona or Audioquest don't know what their devices are going to be used with. The recognize that there will be a difference if their devices are used with MacMini's or Sonore's ultraRendu. They will behave differently, - and they will behave much differently with a MacMini and a Meitner than they with a MacMini and Sony piece-of-junk.
"" What is the downside to that. The fcat is they can't because it's not there.""
Again, they have, they've gone through extensive testing. And with many of their products, - before they ship, they are well tested and used.
As I said they do publish their measurements. These are easily found on the interwebs. But again, these things don't keep planes in the air. They are made to possibly improve the listening experience, - and they're so ridiculously cheap, - and of such great value, - try it, - then sell it if you're not running a noisy computer.
In any case, - John's is developing a much more comprehensive set of measuring tools that will be MORE REFLECTIVE of performance. Those will be out soon. And then you will be presented with more evidence that you will close your mind too and stomp around shout about angrily.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"But there is in the medical industry....
And that is the same claim made, - that it provides galvanic isolation.
And it may POSSIBLY work in audio reproduction...."
Galvanic isolation again? Do you know why that is done in the medical industry? It has nothing to do with signal integrity. It's for safety! Study UL60601-1.
Again you are just regurgitating what you read in audiophile magazines.
Talk about appeal to authority! How about appealing to the right authority! Not some consumer audio magazine!
LOL
Your post is just hilarious in its level of ignorance...
""It's for safety! Study UL60601-1.""
of course it is, as are the ENO RJ-45 isolators in networking....
"" It has nothing to do with signal integrity.""
Of course not!! And i never said it did.
""Again you are just regurgitating what you read in audiophile magazines. ""
Why would you assume that my statements about the Intona would come from audio magazines that I do not have or read?
HOW many times do I need to spell it out for you??? I AM TESTING THE PRODUCTS, I HAVE DIRECT EXPERIENCE and anecdotal evidence of their efficacy
""Talk about appeal to authority""
LOL, - how is testing for myself appealing to authority? Explain it to me please? If you'd like, - I can help you with logic, deductive statements, reason, formulating arguments...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
A home audiophile?
The best to judge the effectiveness of the equipment.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
z
You? Obviously not.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
You are making a fool of your self. Just look at my video. Do you run an active crossover system? Try that for starters.
I am not going to watch your video.....
""You are making a fool of your self""
nothing compared to just about all the posts you've made here.
I was asking about your system cause I didn't know what it was made up of, - because, - again, - you're making judgements about something that you know nothing about.
You can see all of the details in my system easily by clicking on the A.
I hope that things get better for you, carrying all this vitriol must get pretty heavy after a fashion...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
+10 enough close-minded vitriol.
Bi-wired right? I see dual cables going to that speaker! I don't see multiple power amps so that rules out true active biamping?What's with the old utility pole insulators under the speaker cables? Art statement? That's fine. But I hope you don't think they provide any technical benefit! If so please explain how a wood floor against a fractional amp output impedance has any significant capacitance effects. At that low of an impedance even a steel conduit that length would have negligible effects.
Edits: 04/22/19
Then don't watch it. That doesn't change the facts presented within which are still on public display.
And I sincerely doubt anybody watching that would consider the author a fool except perhaps another fool.
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
