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In Reply to: RE: Same generation (2016) posted by Davey on October 24, 2017 at 09:29:24
The price is irrelevant for your comparison.
Who said anything about a comparison? I'm responding to your "get a refund" comment. Ok. So I get a refund. I'll ask the simple question again:
Kindly provide a link where I can purchase a "properly mounted" version for $825.
I'm most certainly not going to spend $1200 for the Nord. when a $16 buck fan solves the smallish cabinet issue.
Follow Ups:
If you send me your amplifier I'd be happy to mount the module correctly for you, at no charge.
Dave.
Even then, insured shipping both ways to the NW coast would run at least $75.
Understand that I'm not particularly motivated to *fix* a non-problem. Since the unit lives in a closet, the nominal fan noise is inaudible. Now that fall has arrived, the garage temperature has dropped twenty degrees and pretty much taken care of my original concern.
Maybe one day for aesthetic reasons, I'll pull the board and ask for your guidance on the process. Presumably, it wouldn't be terribly different than when I built a passive attenuator box where I needed to drill holes for the pots and connectors and wire it. Buy the thermal paste from Parts Express or Mouser?
I would encourage you to DIY if you're up for it.
Based on some limited experimentation with my modules, I suspect your mounting plate temperature will decrease approximately 10-15 degrees C. (Much depends upon the mass of your chassis, obviously.) I don't believe you'd experience an audible difference, but I suspect longevity will increase.
The development boards could come out as well since you're not using any of their capability.
That would allow to get rid of the ribbon cables and use a preferable twisted-pair-shielded wiring scheme to the input jacks.
Dave.
this observation:
That would allow to get rid of the ribbon cables
Here is a picture of your recommended Nord implementation of the NC502MP. Did they fail to remove the "developmental boards" as well?
They did remove the development boards. They've implemented their own input boards with XLR connectors, switching scheme, etc.
The Hypex development boards have numerous monitoring spots, LED status indicators, enabling switches, signal routing for a third channel, etc.
Dave.
what did you mean by this?
That would allow to get rid of the ribbon cables and use a preferable twisted-pair-shielded wiring scheme to the input jacks.
Clearly the picture shows that Nord continues to connect their input board to the main board via the ribbon cable.
My amp also uses shielded wire from the input board to the input jacks.
On my setups I go all the way from J7 on the NC module to the input jacks with twisted-pair-shielded. The ribbon cables are completely eliminated.....as well as the OEM development board.
Most of the pins in the J7 connector are instrumentation-related and no longer needed/used in a final amplifier design, since it's all "integrated" with these particular modules.
In the case of the NC500 modules....with separate SMPS supply.....you would use the appropriate ribbon cables. In that case there is important communication back/forth between the NC500 module and the SMPS supply that might need to initiate a shutdown condition. The OEM development board in that scheme is different as it incorporates an instrumentation amplifier (for the extra voltage gain requirement) as well as local power supply regulation, and connectors for SMPS power, Vaux, Vdr, etc, etc.
I have also built a few of those setups, and that's currently my main stereo amplifier for my Magnepan's.
Dave.
(and found) something out of the box under $1k for the garage system that improved upon the Crown's limitations and was willing to try Ncore.
Score.
I wasn't really interested in your application....only that the amplifier implementation was done correctly. Which, in your case, it wasn't.
That's what caught my eye and why I offered to help.
Cheers,
Dave.
Which, in your case, it wasn't.
And yet, a $16 fan saved the day! :)
But that's beside the point, obviously.
It should have never needed a fan.
Dave.
So your modules never get hot driving your Maggies..?
I had priced out modules and dual PSU awhile back off the Hypex site and it was way more that what E-Stat amp was listed for on Ebay.
Regards
No, they run at essentially room temperature in my scheme.
You must of priced out something different. Pricing for the OEM modules is not available on the Hypex website.
Dave.
The NC400 modules
Totally different pricing structure for those modules.Get yourself up to speed on the Hypex products and business model, and then check back.
Dave.
Edits: 10/26/17
No worries , not interested enuff in power anything weighing less than 10Kg and the size of matchbooks, i was just mentioning EStat amp is much cheaper than the modules listed on their site for a full amplfier ..
500 watts of anything need Iron, heat and sinks , no heat no sound ...... Err , just saying ...
Regards
Not that it should take one to know that you have no idea what you are talking about. IMO.
Must be an EE with an opinion and ears is a damgerous thing ....
Your recommendation for buying the Nord implementation was to spend $400 to solve a $16 challenge. :)
Yet again with the silly baiting. I didn't recommend any such thing.
You asked for photos of properly mounted modules in amplifiers using the NCXXXMP's, and I provided you the Nord example.
It was just an example and I didn't consider price. You brought that up. :)
Dave.
I didn't recommend any such thing.
Sure you did. And acknowledged ignorance on price.
It was just an example and I didn't consider price.
If you'd like to send me $400, I'll be happy to follow your advice. :)
My point was that your guy could have mounted the modules properly and still sold the unit for the exact same price.
Is that unclear????????
Dave.
My point was that your guy could have mounted the modules properly and still sold the unit for the exact same price.
Thus the $825 price for inexperience vs. $1200 for the same amplifier.
Is there anything you don't understand about the pricing differential?
"Is there anything you don't understand about the pricing differential?"
No.
Dave.
As you noted, the $16 cost of the fan could have been saved all together by mounting the modules as Hypex (and you) stipulate.
The Hypex data sheets clearly show the optimum thermal operation of the modules and the need to heat sink them. Who knows if tossing a muffin fan in the box meets the criteria to prevent them from current limiting (or self-destructing).
Guess the builder doesn't think this matters when selling them to unsophisticated audiophiles (who don't own gear long enough to be concerned with things like warranty). That said, the ebay builder of this amp should have known better, but perhaps he's never even tested them or even read the Hypex data sheet.
I don't understand why anybody would buy a product from someone completely unqualified to do even the simplest of things correctly. As Davey pointed out, it doesn't cost a single extra penny to mount the modules correctly.
Apparently the couple hundred bucks savings was enough to persuade this audiophile buyer to put faith in this unqualified ebay seller.
Davey was kind enough to offer to fix the poorly assembled amps for free but his offer apparently wasn't good enough. Some audiophiles are really hard to please. I'm sure you know the type.
Apparently the couple hundred bucks savings was enough to persuade this audiophile buyer to put faith in this unqualified ebay seller.
Since I am DIYer myself, I went in knowing that a four hundred dollar savings over an equivalent Nord amplifier was worth some additional effort - in this case spending $16 for a fan. And from what Davey says (and has offered to do gratis) it would be simple process at zero cost to remount the board.
Sheesh!
Don't know about you, but I'd much rather spend that money elsewhere like a one year subscription to TIDAL HIFI. :)
Just be careful and don't burn your amp up in the process, as there is no warranty from Hypex.
Perhaps you've missed the eight posts of mine that have talked about the fan.
Perhaps you missed my post that included the Hypex data sheet that states in very clear language the thermal characteristics of their modules, operating parameters, how they need to be properly heat sink mounted and that failure to abide by their criteria will result in warranty void.
Do you really think the heat plate *knows* or cares how its temperature is safely regulated?
You must be one of those folks challenged with finding the "any" key on the keyboard.
Have you measured the idle and temperature under load of the heat sink of your module? Is it at or below what Hypex specifies on their data sheet as normal operating temperature? Is the board mounted in a way Hypex clearly states it should be mounted?
If the answer to no to any, and I'm sure it is, you don't have a warranty should you burn out your amplifier due to improper construction.
This thread exemplifies your unwillingness to comprehend and learn. Not that I care. Good luck, regardless.
Its class-D sound , so no need to worry just get another one , BTW he added a fan to cool the unit , not to worry by end of grade school you will learn about cooling ...
Regards
Edits: 10/27/17 10/27/17 10/27/17
Hi Dave,
I read the whole thread and couldn't figure out the "manufacturer" of E-Stat's Hypex-based amplifier. What am I missing?
Also, why is it that you know more about the proper implementation of the Hypex modules than a presumably legitimate "manufacturer"?
It sounds like E-Stat's amps don't have the modules properly mounted to the chassis for heat dissipation, and run the input signal through an extra stage that is part of the "Eval Board" Hypex supplies to show people that the module actually works as advertised. If the "manufacturer" of E-Stat's amp is that dense, I cannot understand why anybody would purchase any product from them. You are not talking about rocket-surgery here - just plain common sense.
Thanks!
It sounds like E-Stat's amps don't have the modules properly mounted to the chassis for heat dissipation
Davey prefers coupling the board's heat sink directly to the case for further cooling capability.
run the input signal through an extra stage
Not an "extra" stage, just using the OEM supplied input board that offers optional functionality.
Hypex (the manufacturer) supplied modules like the NC502MP require little more than a case and connectors. Assemblers fashion those bits.
went to the ncore link ...where is the specifications? like power bandwidth FR? Simple THD figures?
Click the "Product Download" tab for PDF documentation. You must accept their cookie first!
I don't want to accept cookies ....oh well
Your internet surfing is severely crippled if you accept no cookies. Nothing wrong with accepting cookies (or candy) from people and places you know! ;-)
What is the definition of a "legitimate" manufacturer?
Dave.
> > What is the definition of a "legitimate" manufacturer? < <
Not to sound racist, but I would automatically exclude 99% of all Chinese "manufacturers". The bulk of these are just garage (or kitchen-table) operations set up by guys who can barely read English and take advantage of the Chinese government subsidies on postage and shipping to "manufacture" audio products and sell them to suckers in the US who are looking for "bargains". (Well, it has the same Hypex module as one from a US company but is only half the price...)
It was kind of a rhetorical question, but it does highlight the considerable gray area nowadays that might separate legitimate from "legitimate", yes?
Some established, legitimate manufacturers are now outfitting some of their models with third-party innards from Hypex, ICE, etc, etc.
Plus, there are also commercial manufacturers with products built around supplied integrated devices like LM3886's, etc, etc.
If you build valve amplifiers and you source all your tubes from Russia, are you a legitimate manufacturer? :)
Dave.
Well the world has changed a lot over the last 25 years, and things are now possible that should not be (in my opinion).
If some guy in China is "building" Hypex amps on his kitchen table simply because he can read enough English to be able to do so, does not make him a legitimate manufacturer in my opinion.
To me, legitimate covers at least two different areas:
1) Knowing what you are doing. It's not hard to stick some op-amps on a circuit board and make a preamp. Or some Hypex modules in a box and make a power amp. Or even follow the app notes to build a DAC. But there is already so much crap out there, why in the world does the world need *another* manufacturer of crap that is just like everybody else's crap?
To me the only reason to make something is that you have figured out a way to make it better that what already exists. More features, lower price, or better performance. Since high-end audio is about performance, that is the thing that interests me the most. Then the next challenge is to see if that new technology can translate down to lower price points.
2) The other thing that a legitimate manufacturer must be able to supply is some level of support for the things they make. What if it breaks? Can they fix it, or will it cost more to ship it back to China than you paid for it (with the shipping to the US literally subsidized by the Chinese government)? What if it catches on fire an burns your house down? What if it doesn't pass FCC regulations and interferes with your neighbors Wi-Fi network. (I've seen all of these things happen in real life.)
There are often hidden costs associated with low-price equipment, especially things from China. Just because you don't see the costs when you first purchase the item, doesn't mean they don't exist. The OP still has refused to identify the brand of amplifier he bought. Do you know what it is, or the country of origin?
Thanks.
Bruno Putzy's Hypex firm is primarily a DIY oriented supplier which is why everybody and his brother *makes* an Ncore amp. Including presumably "legitimate" manufacturers like ATI and Merrill.
Mine is admittedly an inexpensive implementation of the NC502MP single board amplifier by an assembler in New Jersey.
Thanks for the link to the "manufacturer" of your amplifier. Clearly the guy knows just enough to be dangerous. I certainly would not count on him to be around to give support for any longer than a few months - in that time he may decide to either:
a) Move out of his parent's basement.
b) Realize he is at best making $2 per hour in the "manufacturing" business and get out.
c) Be inundated with customer complaints (such as overheating).
Linked below is a an article worth reading. Can you imagine buying a McIntosh that needed you to buy a muffin fan to keep it from overheating?
I certainly would not count on him to be around to give support for any longer than a few months - in that time he may decide to either:
Since he did little other than to wire the Hypex module, I would turn to them for any real problems.
Can you imagine buying a McIntosh that needed you to buy a muffin fan to keep it from overheating?
Davey advised an *alternative* to my $16 solution for only $400. :)
Indeed, if I were to spend $18k for one of your components, I would expect more. For $825, not so much. I spent far more on the interconnects than to fret over sixteen dollars.
> > Since he did little other than to wire the Hypex module, I would turn to them for any real problems. < <
So now Hypex has to do warranty support for all of the kitchen-table "manufacturers" out there? I wouldn't expect *anything* from Hypex if you have any problems. They will almost certainly tell you to contact the "manufacturer".
> > Davey advised an *alternative* to my $16 solution for only $400. < <
And Davey also said he would do the proper mods for free. And Davey told you exactly how to do the proper mods yourself. Davey clearly knows FAR more about the Hypex modules than your "manufacturer".
> So now Hypex has to do warranty support for all of the kitchen-table "manufacturers" out there?
> > Since they do not produce finished products and determine for themselves who sells their OEM modules, their answer is clearly "Yes".
Since reading comprehension doesn't seem to run in the OP's geenpool, I'll spell it out again as a courtesy for him, and even supply a picture. Also, in case he's interested here's the thermal white paper Hypex is referring to .
So now Hypex has to do warranty support for all of the kitchen-table "manufacturers" out there?
Since they do not produce finished products and determine for themselves who sells their OEM modules, their answer is clearly "Yes".
"You have a standard warranty of two years on a Hypex product (one year for OEM products). We consider ourselves to be very flexible when it comes to this subject. However, when we find extensive modifications made by yourself which prevents us from repairing the module or is even the cause of the failure itself, we may charge you for the repair or even decide not to repair the module at all."
If any of the connectors fail used by the assembler, I would replace them myself.
And Davey told you exactly how to do the proper mods yourself.
After thanking him, I indicated that one day I might well *fix* the non-problem.
As for purchasing things, Hypex has a good track record for reliability and many have raved about its sound quality. I'm able to experimentally purchase components at a given budget point where if I don't like them, I resell them. There are some inmates who do this on a regular basis. I would not do that, however, for a $2500 amplifier.
Well John did have a big Mac shut off on him after about 5 mins of preconditioning ...
Touché!
That is pretty funny, in at least a couple of ways:
1) It is only the recent McIntosh team that would dare release a product with such piss-poor heat dissipation capabilities that it would shut off after only 5 minutes of what is admittedly a ridiculously demanding load.
2) At least the Mac had the good graces to detect that it was overheating and shut off without damage. That may or may not be true about the Hypex module amplifier that E-Stat bought. I don't know if he bought a fan because it was running super hot, or because it shut itself off.
3) It's sad to see what was once one of the best engineering companies in all of audio amplifiers be reduced to a pale artificial imitation of what it once was. I guess if it has a black glass front panel and blue meters, then it's good enough to be a McIntosh. Capitalism eating itself once again.
That may or may not be true about the Hypex module amplifier that E-Stat bought. I don't know if he bought a fan because it was running super hot, or because it shut itself off.I'll be happy to answer both questions.
1. Yes, the Hypex board does provide for overheating and will presumably shut down if necessary. Their "Thermal Design" document considers 80 degrees C a reasonable maximum temperature.
2. Never have experienced a shutdown - just observed that it ran "toasty" when run 24/7 shut up in its garage closet home. Using an infrared thermometer, I measured a high value of 57 C. Which is why in an abundance of caution, I elected to match what Crown did with the XLS1500 it replaced and spent the princely sum of $16 to alleviate any concerns with a low speed fan.
FWIW, I once used a NAD 326BEE in there and that sucker ran downright hot! Which was one of the motivations for trying out a switcher for that closed unregulated environment.
Edits: 10/27/17
My C-356BEE runs pretty warm at idle on an open shelf. Mostly I use it as a preamp, but it still gets surprisingly warm. It doesn't seem to get all that warmer when pushed a little bit but with my current speakers, it's not called upon to do that much. I think it's the NAD way, like, maybe inadequate heat sinking. The warmth is felt on the top of the unit.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
My C-356BEE runs pretty warm at idle on an open shelf. .
A challenge with the garage system is that the electronics are closed up in a small closet and don't get good ventilation. In that environment, I don't have any problem using a fan since it is inaudible with the door closed - especially with a diminutive 600 watt amplifier.
When I first got it, the weather was still summer-like and ambient temperature in the closet was about 85 degrees. With the fan running, it ran slightly warm.
Now that fall has arrived, I really don't need the fan at all. It's currently about 48 degrees. :)
I was just commenting about NAD integrateds and their tendency to run warmish.
No worries about fans or diminutive 600 watt amplifiers.
Enjoy!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
even under ideal circumstances. They likely run the output stage at a relatively high bias level. Their preamps like the C-162 do as well.
nt
Just Drill out the back and mount the fan , this way you can say the fan is there to evacuate the unit , not cool the amp ..
This should calm the Class-D herd ... :)
Regards
PS: I was told by other's owning the NC400, they found the crown to be the better sounding amp and its a lot cheaper ..
Edits: 10/27/17 10/27/17
much wrist wringing and all the snarky comments have been generated over this inexpensive project - which works just fine.
Just Drill out the back and mount the fan
That would take far more effort than to bolt the card's heat carrier to the case. The fan's location is strategically placed to blow directly across the existing heat sink.
I was told by other's owning the NC400, they found the crown to be the better sounding amp and its a lot cheaper.
If by "the Crown", you mean the XLS1500, I strongly disagree. The Crown's top end is missing in action. While neither images particularly well in terms of reproducing the acoustic space, the Ncore is clearly superior at the top.
They used to be focused on diy but things have changed.
Hypex sells one nCore module (NC400) to diy and six versions including your NC502MP, only to manufacturers.
While I don't dispute anything you've said, it sure seems that anyone can become a *manufacturer* from their perspective.
By his level of unpreparedness and whining, I'm thinking the guy who assembled mine is a millennial with grandiose plans. :)
I think OEM in this case merely means that you have to buy the modules in numbers
I suspect that if you buy 10 identical ones you'd be ok.
I also seem to remember that Hypex specified a minimum retail price for amps built with their modules but it appears that has gone out of the window.
The OP was clear that he purchased his amplifier from Merrill Audio. Maybe you're referring to a different OP?
The Merrill amplifiers are all based around Hypex modules.....either Ncore or UcD.
Whether Hypex and/or Merrill are considered a legitimate manufacturer by you, I don't know.
Dave.
Apologies, I was confused. I meant E-Stat and I inferred from your dialog with him that you knew both knew the manufacturer of E-Stat's amps. When I inquired directly, both of you dodged.
Now E-Stat has linked to the US-based E-bay seller of his amplifier. I would definitely not consider him a legitimate manufacturer. He is exactly as I described my hypothetical Chinese manufacturer, except that he doesn't have the excuses of:
1) Not being able to understand English well due to the language barrier (unless he is a recent immigrant, which doesn't seem to be the case based on the E-bay copy).
2) Being so poor and desperate that he will do anything to feed his family for the few dollars a day he makes "manufacturing" Hypex amplifiers.
The guy clearly knows just enough to be dangerous, just enough to give Hypex a bad name (needs a fan to stay cool?!), and screw up the value proposition for legitimate manufacturers.
If he is still "in business" in the same location to provide support for his customers, it will be a miracle. He currently is likely working out of his parents basement. How long will it be before he tires of living at home make a couple of hundred dollars per month "manufacturing" amplifiers?
Check out Veritas,
No other comment on this from me. I am done with all of this, really.
...I borrowed a pair of Veritas amps for a month or so from Merrill and didn't like them at all with my speakers.
They sounded so clean as to sound sterile - no air and little sense of harmonics or space.
Myles Astor in Positive Feedback takes a more positive view.
I think you are listening to aluminum speakers then.
It is interesting what you said, thanks a lot for the insight with your Thiels. Very good speaker for traditional solid state amps.
...actually I've found Thiels do much better with tubed amps.
The only ss amp I've liked with them is the Pass X-350.
Many speakers are very good at hiding the defects of upstream equipment. The Thiels tend to be more revealing, with their very best design of all time being the CS-5 (a close second is the CS-3.7 with the CS-1.6 in third place). Some of the later Thiels would *magnify* the defects of upstream equipment, making them very picky about what you could drive them with.Have you ever tried a zero-feedback solid-state amp with your Thiels? Whan model are you using?
In my experience negative feedback (more so in solid-state than in tubes for some reason) tends to sound "etched", "brittle", "clear", "detailed" and things like that - the exact same way that many poorly executed metal diaphragm drivers do.
But when you get a *properly* executed rigid diaphragm speaker (eg, the Vivid Giyas) and a *properly* executed zero-feedback amplifier (solid-state or tube), something approaching magic will happen. Unfortunately both animals are avis rara indeed. The best zero feedback tube amps I know of came from the late Allen Wright (RIP) of Vacuum State Electronics, although there are probably more in the world of SETs. There are only two brands of zero feedback solid-state power amps I know of - the Thetas and the Ayres - both designed by me. Actually the original zero feedback solid-state amp was made by the late Steve Wingate (RIP) of Wingate Audio in the mid- to late-'80s. But he only produced a couple of dozen before going out of business. Then there is the Aesthetix Atlas hybrid amps that are zero-feedback, with a tube gain stage and a solid-state output stage.
Any of these will likely sound superb with your Thiels.
Edits: 10/26/17
Hello Charles, I can agree that most engineered sand amps are NOT designed for music but more designed laboratory instrument (very very low distortion) most sound A-musical and Pointed!not like real music we hear in life for sure, In real music there is no bandwidth limiting, no bass no treble no 3d, its just all there without a thought.
anyways where can someone who has some skills find some lower power 25wpc real zero feedback SS amplifier schematic?
Thank you sir
Lawrence
> > anyways where can someone who has some skills find some lower power 25wpc real zero feedback SS amplifier schematic? < <
The rumor I heard was that the original Krell KSA-50 schematic was taken straight from the Motorola app notes of the day. The only changes were to turn up the bias so that it ran in true class A and to beef up the power supply to handle the required idle current and the heatsinking to handle the constant 100 wpc of heat dissipation.
If you don't know enough to do those things, you can likely either search on the DIY Audio forums. There was a much better article in The Audio Amateur many years ago about a 20 wpc class A amp. I can't recall the name, but I think it started with "Ch". Maybe the "Chatam" or the "Chater" or similar. Much nicer schematic that the standard Lin-based design used in the Motorola app notes.
If you are serious about it, start with Bob Cordell's book. The latest version of Doug Self's book is also a good resource, although many things he says are wrong in my experience. Still there is a lot of fundamental information that is helpful to build a foundation of knowledge.
Good luck and have fun!
There are only two brands of zero feedback solid-state power amps I know of...
Nelson Pass' First Watt with the SIT amps.
Single ended zero feedback Class A using a single active device!
Yes, that would sound far better than most. The design is inherently compromised by the need for two coupling capacitors, one each at the input and the output.
The input cap can be a fairly low (and relatively pleasant) coloration polystyrene or polypropylene (I really dislike the the colorations of all the Teflon caps I've tried). But at the output stage you are pretty much stuck with an electrolytic capacitor as you are driving a very low impedance load - especially with a Thiel.
Electrolytic caps are horribly colored, with the possible exception of the long discontinued Blackgates. I've never heard one, but have heard enough about them from people whose ears I trust (eg, Ken Stevens of CAT) that they are excellent. Of course buying just one of those of the proper value (many thousands of microfarads) when they were still in production would cost several hundred dollars each.
I've found it is far, far better to use a more complex circuit to allow true DC coupling and elimination of coupling capacitors. Servos color the sound just as capacitors do (only worse), as they amplify the coloration of the capacitor used in the feedback loop of the servo.
It seems counter-intuitive, but the least colored components I've found are certain brands and models of resistors and properly designed transistor stages. The result is that Ayre's more recent designs with dozens of transistors sound far more transparent than the original V-3 of 25 years ago with only 3 MOSFETs in the signal path and a small amount of DC feedback just around the output stage to avoid DC offset at the output. The feedback colored the bass region significantly, making it warmer an plumper than a true DC amplifier with no feedback, no servos, and no coupling caps that is perfectly flat with zero phase shift all to way down to 0 Hz.
that it works using a single device!
I'm sure you understand that Nelson is not content designing amplifiers using only one approach - between Threshold, Pass Labs and First Watt, he has used quite a few different topologies.
These amps are little low power 10wpc....reading the making of this little amp, why on earth did nelson make such small devices?! make a bigger transistor for crips sake!!!
I mean if your going to have some made why limit yourself with such (regular) devices and there current(bias) limits....I just don't get it.
When will there be REAL music amplifiers made with Power!
If Nelson made First Watt amps with power, it would likely infringe heavily on his business with Pass Lab amps. I think his designs for First Watt are deliberately "crippled". It's a way for him to have fun and "connect" with the DIY crowd.
I find it odd that he only works on power amps. I really don't get the difference between designing a class A power amp and designing a line stage. What ever works for one should work for the other - just scale the dissipation of the active devices.
Ayre uses the same basic schematic for the moving coil phono stages as the highest powered power amp. Just different device selection to fit the job. A good, linear zero-feedback circuit is a good linear zero feedback circuit, regardless of the voltage levels required.
Many amplfier designers dont like doing pre-amps , most have told me its far more difficult than doing power amps, layout is king , Nelson favors Wayne's work here ...
Regards
> > Many amplfier designers dont like doing pre-amps , most have told me its far more difficult than doing power amps, layout is king < <
Really?
That is a bizarre attitude to me. "I'm not gonna try to do that because it might be too hard".
Which specific amp designers have told you that?
Nope , its more like I'm not going to as there are others better at doing it , anyone designing amplifiers can do pre-amps, obviously to do one absolutely, requires more than just know how..
Regards
I think Nelson Pass is just having fun.
I think that's OK.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
While my stats don't qualify, there are quite a few SET fanciers about who use efficient speakers where 10 watts is just fine.
Many speakers that will play fine with 10 Watts really have there own real issues so what's the point ?!
Horn speakers suck imo
Although I have not auditioned one, the most intriguing horn designs to me are from Danley Labs. As a full range electrostat coherency freak, I am sensitive to the challenges posed by multiple drivers especially when their directivity patterns differ.
With this approach, all the drivers "speak" from the same mouth with controlled directivity. That should ensure coherency and like my stats, can be used in arrays either horizontally or vertically.
Quote: With this approach, all the drivers "speak" from the same mouth with controlled directivity. That should ensure coherency and like my stats, can be used in arrays either horizontally or vertically.
This is NOT correct for the simple FACT most electrostatic speaker SPEAK with 2 mouths (front and back) ...definitely NOT coherent, on top of this THEY ARE POINTED, NO live acoustic music sounds this way..end of story again.
musical IQ can be a learned trait, I suggest you take some time to really evaluate how live acoustic music really sounds, you will eventually learn what I have been trying to explain.
I can go on and on...and on, If you still to refuse to get it, then we will have to agree to disagree, life if full of these kinds of disagreements, and its ok you like what you like, I will stick to what is closer to the real thing.
Lawrence
This is NOT correct for the simple FACT most electrostatic speaker SPEAK with 2 mouths (front and back) ...definitely NOT coherentMy point is that unlike most multi-way speakers, the directivity is consistent from top to bottom as opposed to each range having differing radiation patterns.
I find that dipolar line sources create a more realistic acoustical environment and couple better with the room. They also "breathe" like instruments do.
I suggest you take some time to really evaluate how live acoustic music really sounds, you will eventually learn what I have been trying to explain.
I have been doing that longer than you've been alive. Once again, our priorities clearly differ.
I can go on and on...and on,
And yet haven't said anything constructive. Instead, you've just projected your imagination about me ( "your in the audiophile A-musical ...detail detail detail camp ") as though that has any bearing on reality.
If you'd like to have a realistic dialogue instead of simply making stuff up, I'm here.
Good day.
edit: If you have a genuine interest in my preferences and systems, why not look to my AA profile where you'll find lots of information? And perhaps, you might do the same as well since you do not choose to communicate your preferences and system(s).
Edits: 10/29/17
Not the place to debate what is more coherent or not...but I will say EVERY transducer has many issues like full range stats ....no one talks about IM distortion! there is plenty as Rodger majesky about the beverage FULL range and he will tell you there is plenty of IM.Horn speakers are are fantastic for what they do, project into a crowd and at hi volumes ..they are pointed in nature you cannot get around it! they are limited in FR also..esp the bottom end, where the fundamental music lies
Like I said above if your interested in REAL reproduction of acoustic music whatever that maybe music IS NOT POINTED, It has real horizontal dispersion, if your system is pointed in any Freq range, its NOT Real end of that story
the best that has ever been done musically and technically is the multi way (9) FULTON they are very coherent, very low distortion NOT POINTED and super wide FR 13-100kc! low IM ...not only do you have to worry about IM in speakers but my fultons can be tetra wire(quad) wired!!!!! low IM in the wires :) fulton did it first! in the 1970's, like everything he did first, but received very little credit!
I have owned or heard almost everything. but as always to each there own.
Lawrence
Edits: 10/27/17 10/27/17
for what constitutes coherency.
the best that has ever been done musically and technically is the multi way (9) FULTON
I used to sell the boxy sounding FMI80s back in the 70s. Adding woofers and an RTR tweeter array didn't fix that for me.
yes we can agree to our differing criteria, I am in the realistic music camp and your in the audiophile A-musical ...detail detail detail camp that sounds nothing like the real thing.
all good each to his own, but at least we now have established OUR priorities.
Lawrence
Edits: 10/27/17
I am in the realistic music camp and your (sic) in the audiophile A-musical ...detail detail detail camp that sounds nothing like the real thing.
You couldn't be more mistaken about me or my system. My reference is live, unamplified music. I'm a season holder at our local symphony and get to hear wifey play her baby grand on a more frequent basis.
Bob did, however, make some valuable contributions back in that day. One of my reviewer friend mentors knew him well. He would tell stories of Fulton driving up in his truck unloading all manner of gear for evaluation and used his cables for a while. Even in that day, I found that Dayton-Wrights delivered a more natural sounding presentation despite their somewhat rolled off top end. I have very fond memories of hearing the Michel Beroff rendition of Prokofiev Piano Concertos on them which remains a favorite of mine to this day.
I don't doubt you one bit about your hearing the dayton electrostatics bettering the fultons, for a simple reason the fulton speakers they are not easy speaker to get to play right, most amplifiers really suck for music and the fultons demand a real musical amplifier otherwise fall apart, Mr fulton often mentioned that his speakers were better then any amplifiers and I find this true today, IMO its why people sell off the fultons lucky for me I know how to make them play, the large fultons are an easy easy 8ohm load.
Lawrence
Mr fulton often mentioned that his speakers were better then any amplifiers and I find this true today
You and RGA should meet someday. :)
...to check out:
Daedalus
Devore
Tannoy
Klipsch
Zu
Thiels sound exceptionally nice driven by a good tube amp with sufficient power. But you know that! I had a pair of Manley Neo Classic 250 driving my Thiel CS2.4. Wow! I'm presently running a Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated amp. Not quite up their with the Manleys but still very nice. My other success story is similar to yours. In my case the smaller Pass X150.5 driving the Thiel CS2.4
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