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In Reply to: RE: Thanks for the kind offer! posted by Davey on October 24, 2017 at 18:42:48
Hi Dave,
I read the whole thread and couldn't figure out the "manufacturer" of E-Stat's Hypex-based amplifier. What am I missing?
Also, why is it that you know more about the proper implementation of the Hypex modules than a presumably legitimate "manufacturer"?
It sounds like E-Stat's amps don't have the modules properly mounted to the chassis for heat dissipation, and run the input signal through an extra stage that is part of the "Eval Board" Hypex supplies to show people that the module actually works as advertised. If the "manufacturer" of E-Stat's amp is that dense, I cannot understand why anybody would purchase any product from them. You are not talking about rocket-surgery here - just plain common sense.
Thanks!
Follow Ups:
It sounds like E-Stat's amps don't have the modules properly mounted to the chassis for heat dissipation
Davey prefers coupling the board's heat sink directly to the case for further cooling capability.
run the input signal through an extra stage
Not an "extra" stage, just using the OEM supplied input board that offers optional functionality.
Hypex (the manufacturer) supplied modules like the NC502MP require little more than a case and connectors. Assemblers fashion those bits.
went to the ncore link ...where is the specifications? like power bandwidth FR? Simple THD figures?
Click the "Product Download" tab for PDF documentation. You must accept their cookie first!
I don't want to accept cookies ....oh well
Your internet surfing is severely crippled if you accept no cookies. Nothing wrong with accepting cookies (or candy) from people and places you know! ;-)
What is the definition of a "legitimate" manufacturer?
Dave.
> > What is the definition of a "legitimate" manufacturer? < <
Not to sound racist, but I would automatically exclude 99% of all Chinese "manufacturers". The bulk of these are just garage (or kitchen-table) operations set up by guys who can barely read English and take advantage of the Chinese government subsidies on postage and shipping to "manufacture" audio products and sell them to suckers in the US who are looking for "bargains". (Well, it has the same Hypex module as one from a US company but is only half the price...)
It was kind of a rhetorical question, but it does highlight the considerable gray area nowadays that might separate legitimate from "legitimate", yes?
Some established, legitimate manufacturers are now outfitting some of their models with third-party innards from Hypex, ICE, etc, etc.
Plus, there are also commercial manufacturers with products built around supplied integrated devices like LM3886's, etc, etc.
If you build valve amplifiers and you source all your tubes from Russia, are you a legitimate manufacturer? :)
Dave.
Well the world has changed a lot over the last 25 years, and things are now possible that should not be (in my opinion).
If some guy in China is "building" Hypex amps on his kitchen table simply because he can read enough English to be able to do so, does not make him a legitimate manufacturer in my opinion.
To me, legitimate covers at least two different areas:
1) Knowing what you are doing. It's not hard to stick some op-amps on a circuit board and make a preamp. Or some Hypex modules in a box and make a power amp. Or even follow the app notes to build a DAC. But there is already so much crap out there, why in the world does the world need *another* manufacturer of crap that is just like everybody else's crap?
To me the only reason to make something is that you have figured out a way to make it better that what already exists. More features, lower price, or better performance. Since high-end audio is about performance, that is the thing that interests me the most. Then the next challenge is to see if that new technology can translate down to lower price points.
2) The other thing that a legitimate manufacturer must be able to supply is some level of support for the things they make. What if it breaks? Can they fix it, or will it cost more to ship it back to China than you paid for it (with the shipping to the US literally subsidized by the Chinese government)? What if it catches on fire an burns your house down? What if it doesn't pass FCC regulations and interferes with your neighbors Wi-Fi network. (I've seen all of these things happen in real life.)
There are often hidden costs associated with low-price equipment, especially things from China. Just because you don't see the costs when you first purchase the item, doesn't mean they don't exist. The OP still has refused to identify the brand of amplifier he bought. Do you know what it is, or the country of origin?
Thanks.
Bruno Putzy's Hypex firm is primarily a DIY oriented supplier which is why everybody and his brother *makes* an Ncore amp. Including presumably "legitimate" manufacturers like ATI and Merrill.
Mine is admittedly an inexpensive implementation of the NC502MP single board amplifier by an assembler in New Jersey.
Thanks for the link to the "manufacturer" of your amplifier. Clearly the guy knows just enough to be dangerous. I certainly would not count on him to be around to give support for any longer than a few months - in that time he may decide to either:
a) Move out of his parent's basement.
b) Realize he is at best making $2 per hour in the "manufacturing" business and get out.
c) Be inundated with customer complaints (such as overheating).
Linked below is a an article worth reading. Can you imagine buying a McIntosh that needed you to buy a muffin fan to keep it from overheating?
I certainly would not count on him to be around to give support for any longer than a few months - in that time he may decide to either:
Since he did little other than to wire the Hypex module, I would turn to them for any real problems.
Can you imagine buying a McIntosh that needed you to buy a muffin fan to keep it from overheating?
Davey advised an *alternative* to my $16 solution for only $400. :)
Indeed, if I were to spend $18k for one of your components, I would expect more. For $825, not so much. I spent far more on the interconnects than to fret over sixteen dollars.
> > Since he did little other than to wire the Hypex module, I would turn to them for any real problems. < <
So now Hypex has to do warranty support for all of the kitchen-table "manufacturers" out there? I wouldn't expect *anything* from Hypex if you have any problems. They will almost certainly tell you to contact the "manufacturer".
> > Davey advised an *alternative* to my $16 solution for only $400. < <
And Davey also said he would do the proper mods for free. And Davey told you exactly how to do the proper mods yourself. Davey clearly knows FAR more about the Hypex modules than your "manufacturer".
> So now Hypex has to do warranty support for all of the kitchen-table "manufacturers" out there?
> > Since they do not produce finished products and determine for themselves who sells their OEM modules, their answer is clearly "Yes".
Since reading comprehension doesn't seem to run in the OP's geenpool, I'll spell it out again as a courtesy for him, and even supply a picture. Also, in case he's interested here's the thermal white paper Hypex is referring to .
So now Hypex has to do warranty support for all of the kitchen-table "manufacturers" out there?
Since they do not produce finished products and determine for themselves who sells their OEM modules, their answer is clearly "Yes".
"You have a standard warranty of two years on a Hypex product (one year for OEM products). We consider ourselves to be very flexible when it comes to this subject. However, when we find extensive modifications made by yourself which prevents us from repairing the module or is even the cause of the failure itself, we may charge you for the repair or even decide not to repair the module at all."
If any of the connectors fail used by the assembler, I would replace them myself.
And Davey told you exactly how to do the proper mods yourself.
After thanking him, I indicated that one day I might well *fix* the non-problem.
As for purchasing things, Hypex has a good track record for reliability and many have raved about its sound quality. I'm able to experimentally purchase components at a given budget point where if I don't like them, I resell them. There are some inmates who do this on a regular basis. I would not do that, however, for a $2500 amplifier.
Well John did have a big Mac shut off on him after about 5 mins of preconditioning ...
Touché!
That is pretty funny, in at least a couple of ways:
1) It is only the recent McIntosh team that would dare release a product with such piss-poor heat dissipation capabilities that it would shut off after only 5 minutes of what is admittedly a ridiculously demanding load.
2) At least the Mac had the good graces to detect that it was overheating and shut off without damage. That may or may not be true about the Hypex module amplifier that E-Stat bought. I don't know if he bought a fan because it was running super hot, or because it shut itself off.
3) It's sad to see what was once one of the best engineering companies in all of audio amplifiers be reduced to a pale artificial imitation of what it once was. I guess if it has a black glass front panel and blue meters, then it's good enough to be a McIntosh. Capitalism eating itself once again.
That may or may not be true about the Hypex module amplifier that E-Stat bought. I don't know if he bought a fan because it was running super hot, or because it shut itself off.I'll be happy to answer both questions.
1. Yes, the Hypex board does provide for overheating and will presumably shut down if necessary. Their "Thermal Design" document considers 80 degrees C a reasonable maximum temperature.
2. Never have experienced a shutdown - just observed that it ran "toasty" when run 24/7 shut up in its garage closet home. Using an infrared thermometer, I measured a high value of 57 C. Which is why in an abundance of caution, I elected to match what Crown did with the XLS1500 it replaced and spent the princely sum of $16 to alleviate any concerns with a low speed fan.
FWIW, I once used a NAD 326BEE in there and that sucker ran downright hot! Which was one of the motivations for trying out a switcher for that closed unregulated environment.
Edits: 10/27/17
My C-356BEE runs pretty warm at idle on an open shelf. Mostly I use it as a preamp, but it still gets surprisingly warm. It doesn't seem to get all that warmer when pushed a little bit but with my current speakers, it's not called upon to do that much. I think it's the NAD way, like, maybe inadequate heat sinking. The warmth is felt on the top of the unit.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
My C-356BEE runs pretty warm at idle on an open shelf. .
A challenge with the garage system is that the electronics are closed up in a small closet and don't get good ventilation. In that environment, I don't have any problem using a fan since it is inaudible with the door closed - especially with a diminutive 600 watt amplifier.
When I first got it, the weather was still summer-like and ambient temperature in the closet was about 85 degrees. With the fan running, it ran slightly warm.
Now that fall has arrived, I really don't need the fan at all. It's currently about 48 degrees. :)
I was just commenting about NAD integrateds and their tendency to run warmish.
No worries about fans or diminutive 600 watt amplifiers.
Enjoy!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
even under ideal circumstances. They likely run the output stage at a relatively high bias level. Their preamps like the C-162 do as well.
nt
Just Drill out the back and mount the fan , this way you can say the fan is there to evacuate the unit , not cool the amp ..
This should calm the Class-D herd ... :)
Regards
PS: I was told by other's owning the NC400, they found the crown to be the better sounding amp and its a lot cheaper ..
Edits: 10/27/17 10/27/17
much wrist wringing and all the snarky comments have been generated over this inexpensive project - which works just fine.
Just Drill out the back and mount the fan
That would take far more effort than to bolt the card's heat carrier to the case. The fan's location is strategically placed to blow directly across the existing heat sink.
I was told by other's owning the NC400, they found the crown to be the better sounding amp and its a lot cheaper.
If by "the Crown", you mean the XLS1500, I strongly disagree. The Crown's top end is missing in action. While neither images particularly well in terms of reproducing the acoustic space, the Ncore is clearly superior at the top.
They used to be focused on diy but things have changed.
Hypex sells one nCore module (NC400) to diy and six versions including your NC502MP, only to manufacturers.
While I don't dispute anything you've said, it sure seems that anyone can become a *manufacturer* from their perspective.
By his level of unpreparedness and whining, I'm thinking the guy who assembled mine is a millennial with grandiose plans. :)
I think OEM in this case merely means that you have to buy the modules in numbers
I suspect that if you buy 10 identical ones you'd be ok.
I also seem to remember that Hypex specified a minimum retail price for amps built with their modules but it appears that has gone out of the window.
The OP was clear that he purchased his amplifier from Merrill Audio. Maybe you're referring to a different OP?
The Merrill amplifiers are all based around Hypex modules.....either Ncore or UcD.
Whether Hypex and/or Merrill are considered a legitimate manufacturer by you, I don't know.
Dave.
Apologies, I was confused. I meant E-Stat and I inferred from your dialog with him that you knew both knew the manufacturer of E-Stat's amps. When I inquired directly, both of you dodged.
Now E-Stat has linked to the US-based E-bay seller of his amplifier. I would definitely not consider him a legitimate manufacturer. He is exactly as I described my hypothetical Chinese manufacturer, except that he doesn't have the excuses of:
1) Not being able to understand English well due to the language barrier (unless he is a recent immigrant, which doesn't seem to be the case based on the E-bay copy).
2) Being so poor and desperate that he will do anything to feed his family for the few dollars a day he makes "manufacturing" Hypex amplifiers.
The guy clearly knows just enough to be dangerous, just enough to give Hypex a bad name (needs a fan to stay cool?!), and screw up the value proposition for legitimate manufacturers.
If he is still "in business" in the same location to provide support for his customers, it will be a miracle. He currently is likely working out of his parents basement. How long will it be before he tires of living at home make a couple of hundred dollars per month "manufacturing" amplifiers?
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