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Audiogon news

64.81.137.157
Posted on January 30, 2012 at 12:45:55
Brian Walsh
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 10768
Location: IL
Joined: December 6, 1999
 I was just informed that Arnie Chinta, co-founder of Audiogon, has resigned. It's also reported that someone's son has been largely responsible for the tide of untested, unwelcome changes, and that most if not all of the people who were on the lookout for the bad guys have been let go as well. More changes for the worse are said to be coming, but time will tell.

The door is open to a site that can fill their shoes. So far it hasn't happened. And I wouldn't look to Arnie to start anything new along these lines, at least any time in the near future. Surely Audiogon has lost nearly all its momentum.
Brian Walsh

 

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If true, that's a very bad news, posted on January 30, 2012 at 12:50:20
avsBuddy
Audiophile

Posts: 696
Joined: March 8, 2010
 Indeed, there are no good alternatives to Audiogon, besides eBay. It would be a shocker if Audiogon is gone and there is no dedicated place to reach targeted audience for hi-fi sales.

 

A local B&M store had that happen, Took them three years to go from great to out of business. nt, posted on January 30, 2012 at 13:04:33
Elizabeth
 .

 

RIP- next))), posted on January 30, 2012 at 13:12:20
Iron Knee
Audiophile

Posts: 955
Location: Middle Florida
Joined: May 17, 2009
 No longer secure from a very well informed source. leave it at that.

 

What can the guys here do to make the classifieds more front and center, posted on January 30, 2012 at 14:01:45
Paully
Audiophile

Posts: 5909
Location: West Virginia
Joined: February 15, 2004
 And attract a wider audience?

 

Well, our Asylum Ads are up 20% and traffic has more than doubled....., posted on January 30, 2012 at 14:50:49
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Go kid!

That's truly sad news. If Arnie isn't there anymore, the disaster at Agon is much more understandable.

Meanwhile, we're discussing upgrades to the Asylum Trader. Better branding, simplified Feedback steps for Sellers and Buyers. If anyone has other suggestions, now is a good time to make them.

-Rod

 

Just copied all of my Audiogon feedback, before they're gon for good *, posted on January 30, 2012 at 15:11:28
gme109
Audiophile

Posts: 17817
Joined: April 3, 2001
 *
------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yikes, a perfect example of something that wasn't broken being done in by fixing it., posted on January 30, 2012 at 15:18:53
Enophile
Bored Member

Posts: 25269
Location: Northern Californistan
Joined: October 15, 2005
Contributor
  Since: August 5, 2012
 Sad thing.







 

RE: Well, our Asylum Ads are up 20% and traffic has more than doubled....., posted on January 30, 2012 at 15:18:57
gme109
Audiophile

Posts: 17817
Joined: April 3, 2001
 Beautify and enlarge the link to the classified section. I know its right there at the top of every page, but it's been there so long, it has become invisible, make it stand out.

Also would it be possible for everyone to copy and paste their Audiogon feedback, into the Audio Asylum feedback section? Most here have not built up any feedback, and we'd be starting from scratch. Having all the years of Auidogon feedback available here would be a huge plus.
------------------------------------------------------------

 

RE: Well, our Asylum Ads are up 20% and traffic has more than doubled....., posted on January 30, 2012 at 15:26:40
Raiderman
Audiophile

Posts: 2129
Location: Silicon Valley, California
Joined: March 14, 2003
 Hey Rod,

Congrats!

As far as suggestions to keep it going, since we seem to like what Audiogon was doing previously, perhaps you can model your classifieds in a similar manner.

One thing you can do, is to re-label your "All Classified Ads" button, to something that tells everyone that these are the "Latest Classified Ads". I think that one thing we all like(d) about Audiogon, was the fact that one can peruse the very latest classifieds as they came in, so as to get a jump on the good deals, (no matter what section they are in).
(The fact that Audiogon had their ads pop up in that matter the instant one logged in, I think helped make that site as successful as it was.)

However, the big thing is that you really need to somehow get the word out that your site offers used equipment classifieds. You really need to advertise on other websites, (if not in print magazines).
Especially the review websites, such as, (and in no particular order):

6moons.com
10Audio.com
Audioperfectionsit.com
Audioreview.com
Enjoythemusic.com
Positive-feedback.com
Stereomojo.com
Stereophile.com
Theaudiobeat.com
TNT-Audio.com
Tonepublications.com

I realize that this costs money, so to do this, charge a nominal fee per ad, (a buck or two), which (possibly) can be waived if one is a paid up member of the asylum. (i.e. $25/year gets you a limited, (or unlimited, as it's up to you), number of classified ads. Maybe make the manufacturers who sell here pay a higher rate, say $100 a year, (or more), depending on how much they sell.

And of course a REAL feedback system would be nice.
(Notice I said REAL feedback system, since Audiogon's feedback system need not apply!!
How can a feedback system be real, if both parties have to agree to give negative feedback?! What kind of crap is that?!)

My two cents worth!
Good Luck Rod, I hope this time the site takes off like it should.

 

As it turns out, posted on January 30, 2012 at 15:26:59
Brian Walsh
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 10768
Location: IL
Joined: December 6, 1999
 I learned that Arnie was forced out today.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
Brian Walsh

 

Audiogon now infested with scams, posted on January 30, 2012 at 15:28:58
blakey
Audiophile

Posts: 212
Joined: October 24, 2000
 I have noticed a large number of items from UK sellers that appear to be scams. Tannoy monitor reds, Leak TL12.1, JBL 4350, B&W Nautilus 800, etc. I sent an email to Audiogon voicing my concern but I never heard from them. You have been warned!

 

The buzzards are circling *, posted on January 30, 2012 at 15:34:17
gme109
Audiophile

Posts: 17817
Joined: April 3, 2001
 *
------------------------------------------------------------

 

You don't say?, posted on January 30, 2012 at 16:09:21
J.Mac
Audiophile

Posts: 3553
Location: Colorado
Joined: November 6, 2002
 What is an "on site" administrator? The vast majority of web sites and web servers are administered remotely. Most site operators have never laid eyes on the equipment on which their sites run.

 

RE: You don't say?, posted on January 30, 2012 at 17:05:02
Brian Walsh
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 10768
Location: IL
Joined: December 6, 1999
 Your sarcasm is noted. From someone who ought to know: "A'gon used to be one of the most secure websites on earth. They had experienced admins who recognized threats and eliminated them before they were an issue."

The retailers and small manufacturers who need the site to survive are now in trouble.

I wouldn't be surprised to see their forums go away, and a reliable source said the show reports will be deleted soon.

Put a fork in 'em. They're done.
Brian Walsh

 

RE: Audiogon now infested with scams, posted on January 30, 2012 at 17:07:22
middleground
 Ah yes those lovely Nautilus 800s from the UK and Europe at $8,000 for Diamonds and $4,000 for the older model.

Audiogon has run its course I'm afraid.

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 30, 2012 at 17:07:45
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 Sounds like something akin to dad giving in to his strong-minded six-year-old son to drive the car on a major city freeway..................

 

To see the newest offerings on AA ..., posted on January 30, 2012 at 17:12:40
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13133
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 ...use the "New Today" tab.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

If Arnie Chinta Were Smart.............., posted on January 30, 2012 at 17:18:00
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 ..........he'd start up another audio sales site just like Audiogon prior to the changes............

Of course, the financial end of things might be a major roadblock.........

 

Too True! Dad did not give me the car keys until I was seven, and half!, posted on January 30, 2012 at 17:27:18
Raiderman
Audiophile

Posts: 2129
Location: Silicon Valley, California
Joined: March 14, 2003
 ;-)

 

RE: You don't say?, posted on January 30, 2012 at 17:54:13
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Good God, why? There are other forums, of course, but I would have thought they had commercial value to Audiogon as a way of attracting people to the site and helping potential users with purchasing decisions.

They seem to be intent on shooting themselves in the foot.

 

"Age" Based on How the New Version Came Out..........., posted on January 30, 2012 at 18:01:06
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 Had the new version of Audiogon been a little better, I would have used a higher "age"....... ;-D

 

its good to grow up in a conservative household, posted on January 30, 2012 at 18:10:29
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15387
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 good guidance like that is come to hard by.
...regards...tr

 

Thank you for the update and warnings, Brian. (nt), posted on January 30, 2012 at 19:00:38
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007

 

couple of features I'd like to see . . ., posted on January 30, 2012 at 19:15:52
nsgarch
Audiophile

Posts: 334
Location: Southwest USA
Joined: May 7, 2004
 You know, it's amazing, but AA classifieds are about 90% as versatile as the (old) AgoN ads were.

1.) One feature I'd like to see expanded, is when for instance, you search 'McIntosh' and you get a list of all the Mcintosh classifieds, it would be real nice if the resulting list of McIntosh items were grouped by category.

2.) Another great (old) Agon (search) feature you could maybe incorporate would be a general zip code search -- by which I mean an "area" search where you enter just the first three digits of a zip code and you get all the items in zip codes beginning with those three digits.

Time for AA to come out from "Standin' in the shadows baby . . ."
and to "make a little money too!"

Ain't that right Mick . . . . .

 

He was always arrogant, and more lucky than smart, IMHO. nt, posted on January 30, 2012 at 19:25:41
viridian
 nt

 

this will someday be a case study in MBA school, posted on January 30, 2012 at 20:10:43
rhyno
Reviewer

Posts: 997
Joined: January 10, 2001
 on how to ruin a perfectly good franchise by making strategic blunders in search of incremental profits. and the takeaway lesson will be the value of knowing your customers.

i wont list on them again until i've exhausted every other option. repeatedly.

we're 90-180 days away from a competitor eating their lunch.

rod, get a feedback system going, and a cost / listing to keep losers from reposting too many times!

 

25 pages of new ads in the last five days, posted on January 30, 2012 at 20:35:02
Plinko
Audiophile

Posts: 1708
Location: N East, USA
Joined: July 21, 2005
 Browser set at 50 items per page. Do the math. When you cut through all the bullshit, you realize the second hand market for modern high end audio is Audiogon. Maybe that will change but I doubt it. And I doubt I would want it to change. The site that dominates the market provides the most value for all involved in such a case. Splinter sites and diluted markets don't serve anyone, especially users who want to sell their equipment and people who want to buy it.


 

Unfair, and untrue. He's an extraordinarily bright guy, and he worked his ass off building the site., posted on January 30, 2012 at 20:37:12
Bill Leebens
Manufacturer

Posts: 3578
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Joined: April 4, 2000
 nt

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 30, 2012 at 21:14:26
daleda
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Joined: March 6, 2002
 Being an active member there since 2000 and 146 positive transactions I am so saddened by this news. I do admit that for the last year it had developed into more of a wild west environment but us old timers could usually tell the hustlers from the truly wonderful people I traded with thru the years. I'm really still in a state of shock. I truly hope AA classifieds can pick up the slack.

 

RE: its good to grow up in a conservative household, posted on January 30, 2012 at 22:09:45
JayG
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Location: So. California
Joined: January 22, 2002
 Good seeing you at the LA & OR Audio meeting on Sun.Tom. I completely agree with your comment about growing up in a conservative environment. Seems kind of scarce these days.
Hope to see you next month in La Habra.

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 00:17:22
johnsonad
Audiophile

Posts: 759
Location: Central California
Joined: June 9, 2008
 Account canceled, thank you Brian.

 

RE: Well, our Asylum Ads are up 20% and traffic has more than doubled....., posted on January 31, 2012 at 00:18:33
mingles
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: SF Bay area, Berkeley
Joined: April 9, 2006
 Rod, the suggestions from nsgarch and Raiderman are excellent. Please consider them. I'd like to add that there's no way for AA to gain classified market share without a better feedback system. You have to work on that. A listing fee to support your endeavour is totally reasonable! Just keep it at a flat rate. The mood toward Audiogon took a nosedive when they implemented a percentage fee.

I have a small nit with your camera image in the classifieds. The camera is larger than the font size and this forces the table height to be uneven when a listing has a picture. You can "fix" this by shrinking the image. Call it feng shui or whatever you want. I created a small image that's the same size as the typeface. This allows the table height to remain constant whether or not a listing has a picture. Take a look at the image I've attached.

Mark

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 04:25:17
Dan_ed
 Me thinks their profits are way off as well. They've been having a hard time selling those adds for a while. Hence desperation for change to make things better, in flow of new people from around the world with talk decending into subjects and products never thought of, never will be thought of, as high-end.

 

RE: You don't say?, posted on January 31, 2012 at 04:43:17
Dan_ed
 They AREN'T making money, that is why this all happened. I suspect they haven't made money in 4 or 5 years. If you notice they tried clamping down on the fees from sales a few years ago. The forums are no value add, from a bean counter's perspective, small dealers like me can't afford their ads. Sign of the times, folks.

 

Now is a good time to move forward., posted on January 31, 2012 at 04:51:36
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 There are a lot of folks here who have traded at Audiogon for years and could now be ready for something a little more down to earth and accountable than what that site is becoming. There are many experienced members here that could assist. I would focus on the basics first and then improve as things move forward. Here are some initial thoughts, in addition to the good ideas already posted;
1. Make sure the format will accommodate significant (think 100x or more) growth.
2. Make the classifieds a more prominent feature visually, and easy to identify, since there will be people using the site solely for buying and selling who will not be familiar with, and who may not care about, the standard site format - the Classifieds should pop out visually.
3. Classifieds should be easily readable, and well-formatted for pictures,
4. Search engine should be intuitive, well organized, and easy to activate,
5. The process of buying and selling should be well-established and trackable, but not as exhaustive as at A'gon,
6. An accountable feedback system and dispute resolution are important for longevity,
7. Make sure the components of your economic engine (fees by percent or flat rates, pay up front, collection system) make sense, can be easily administered and will accommodate future fee increases that may be necessary as costs go up over time,
8. Don't start out charging too little - this is a valuable service for folks routinely selling gear costing thousands of dollars,
9. Make sure the AA system and staff are set up to accommodate the anticipated growth,
10. Launch changes/improvements with advertising as noted already.
Good luck.

 

USE THEM!! ntt, posted on January 31, 2012 at 04:53:43
Uncle Mike
 not this time

 

RE: Now is a good time to move forward., posted on January 31, 2012 at 05:02:47
bobschneider8
Audiophile

Posts: 100
Location: Chicago
Joined: August 5, 2008
 Also, have some way to access sales price history, perhaps for a fee. That's one feature I found very useful on the old A'gon. It would take some time to develop the database, but would be worth it in the long run.

 

Another one I thought of.., posted on January 31, 2012 at 05:18:26
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 I agree with you Bob, the "Bluebook" is certainly a valuable reference and enhances the process.

Another one I thought of would be to invite, accommodate and embrace industry as they will draw people to the site and enhance credibility.

 

RE:Excellent suggestions..., posted on January 31, 2012 at 07:10:36
Eldragon@gmx.com
I myself have hundred + feed-backs sitting 'dormant,'

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 07:22:38
geezerrocket
 I just ended my A-gon account......"Though we can't recommend it, your more than welcome to cancel your account". Bwah ha ha ha! So sorry thumb suckers, but obviously you all at AudioGon know nothing about customer service, and deserve any and all failure(s) you have coming. To borrow a Sam Tellig line; Pox on you!

 

RE: You don't say?, posted on January 31, 2012 at 07:36:05
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I can see having to cut back, but at some point you're eating your seed corn. I'm having a hard time figuring out why they can't make ends meet. After all, there are plenty of forums out there that don't have the income from a slice out of sales.

 

They AREN'T making money??? You sure?, posted on January 31, 2012 at 07:56:31
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 On average, it appears that Agon gets about 200 new classified ads per day. Even if you discount the fact that they have a number of dealers that get special bulk pricing and whatnot, one could still assume that just the listing fee on 150 per day amounts to $600 per day. If 25% of the items sell with a $10 transaction fee, that's another $375 per day. Let's call it $1,000 per day or $30K/month.

Costs are no more than $3K/month for infrastructure. But you also have the Agon dealers/stores and auctions plus advertisers that more than cover those costs.

It strikes me that it could easily be run as a 2 person operation, 3 max, so unless there some investor siphoning off a big chunk of the profits, I'd say they're making plenty of money. Not that Agon is any internet giant money maker, but it's surely capable of providing a nice living for a few folks.


-Rod

 

LOL! Audiogon isn't big enough to even be a blip on an MBA program's radar, posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:02:18
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 They would be as well off discussing how little Jimmy's lemonade stand went downhill because he started scrimping on the lemons he buys.

 

RE: Well, our Asylum Ads are up 20% and traffic has more than doubled....., posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:16:24
jqunac
Audiophile

Posts: 2920
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: April 26, 2011
 I'd like to throw this out there to see if it sticks. May be a bad idea but I'll leave it for you to decide.

Make Classifieds a hub for everyone who is looking for Audiogon alternatives by including links to all other audio buy/sell sites. Maybe partner with other sites to list each others' links. This way AA becomes the place where we begin our search for used gear and a portal to other sites.

 

Would you, perchance, be "Audiogon Bill"? if so, I have a few bones to pick with you as well. nt, posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:19:12
viridian
 nt

 

RE: couple of features I'd like to see . . ., posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:20:51
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Those ideas should be fairly easy to do. We'd looked at doing a range for a location, like within 50 miles, but it gets complicated and requires renting a database with longitude and latitude for every zip code. A simple partial zip is easy though not real accurate all the time.

My programming wizard will be on vacation until mid-February, so we might be able to get some new features done by early March.


-Rod

 

RE: Now is a good time to move forward., posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:23:55
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 We've got nearly 60,000 old ads. Searches are just limited to active ads. Accessing old ones is just adding a UI to get at them.

Whether we have enough data to be useful is another question.

-Rod

 

I was "Audiogon Bill"; haven't had that role since last May. Pick away, dude! (nt), posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:24:25
Bill Leebens
Manufacturer

Posts: 3578
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Joined: April 4, 2000
 nt

 

You really think that? It used to be the most-heavily-trafficked audio site in the world. (nt), posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:26:38
Bill Leebens
Manufacturer

Posts: 3578
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Joined: April 4, 2000
 nt

 

RE: Now is a good time to move forward., posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:26:43
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Don't worry about scaling up, we've got plenty of horse power with the new server that we just installed. I'll work on branding over the next week or so and then we'll start on enhancements in a couple weeks. I believe most of what you've mentioned is there already.

-Rod

 

So you come to Arnie's defense without mentioning that you had..., posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:43:17
viridian
 .....a financial relationship with him. That's pretty high integrity stuff there.

As far as your feelings about Arnie, clearly I dealt with him as a customer of Audiogon, and you saw a different side of him as a colleague. That's fair enough. Most people are multi dimensional and there's no sense in having an argument about Rashomon.

And I take no issue with you saying that he was a hard worker, but that doesn't equate to intelligence or a lack of arrogance, not that he did not evince either in your relationship with him.

 

Search by zipcode feature no longer works, posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:45:44
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 10282
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
 I hate the new Audiogon. I hope someone fills the void with a secure and user friendly site.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:47:15
acres verde
Audiophile

Posts: 723
Location: Big Easy
Joined: November 13, 2004
 Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say "...to borrow a line from Sam Tellig that he borrowed from someone else...". Just nitpicking.

 

RE: They AREN'T making money??? You sure?, posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:49:26
Jsawyer09
Audiophile

Posts: 554
Location: Midwest
Joined: January 2, 2008
 Here, here. Agreed on the numbers. I've thought about this a bit lately and cannot reconcile the rationale...apart from what's been explained here recently, whether by conjecture or fact-based information.

It is all really unfortunate; however, there simply doesn't exist a viable alternative. I post ads here and NEVER get a response. I post the same ads on A'Gon and it's sold anywhere from a few hours to a few days on average.

I'd love to come exclusively to the Asylum Ads, but the traffic and interest just isn't here (at least not just yet).

With that said, I look forward to upcoming changes on this site. I, too, have lots of feedback on A'Gon, but after my last ad is sold there, sadly I think I'll be moving on as well; these changes they've come up with just aren't worth it to me. I enjoyed point-to-point communication and user-friendly features. I don't mind the idea of change, but there's right way and a wrong way. Consensus seems to be pointing in the latter direction.

I'm with many here: I hope AA can pick up the pieces to a defunct(ing) A'Gon and make something worthy to call an audio community in the strictest sense.

 

I suddenly recall why I hated dealing with forums. , posted on January 31, 2012 at 08:52:29
Bill Leebens
Manufacturer

Posts: 3578
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Thanks for pointlessly and without cause impugning my integrity. I suppose you'd say that because I don't point out that I spent thousands of hours running a charity auction on AA, I've failed to disclose an insider relationship with this site.


Good luck, and have a good life.

 

RE: Now is a good time to move forward., posted on January 31, 2012 at 09:33:52
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 Glad to hear it. I have a few for-sale ads to post so I will try them here.

 

True - but there's also a question..., posted on January 31, 2012 at 09:40:45
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 ... of how many things that made your site successful you can fuck up, before it becomes unsuccessful.

Dropping the ad as soon as seller accepts an offer, but before (and without real guarantee of) a payment, is REAL fuck-up for the sellers.

That's not mentioning non-existent search functionality, which is a problem for buyers (hopefully that will be taken care of).

 

Hey Rod!, posted on January 31, 2012 at 10:02:07
Raideman
 Have you ever considered revamping your site so that the classifieds pop up first, and foremost, and the forums are behind them?

(Yes, similar to what Audiogon was like.)

I think that until your site becomes a classified ad site first, and a forum site second, that your classifieds will never be as successful as they could be.

Just a thought.

Good Luck!

 

Asylum Trader?, posted on January 31, 2012 at 10:26:54
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31878
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Need a stronger and more AUDIO marketable name than that, for one thing.

It may mean something to us inmates/users, but we're a small bunch numbers wise and we're already here, a captive audience so to speak.

Even Asylum AUDIO Trader would be a step up to broaden the appeal of bringing in new blood, if only to sell or buy stuff through this site.

Need to push the AUDIO aspect of the Trader/classifieds to a brandable and marketable name to ingrain on web searches for those interested in such.

Also, charging a reasonable fee for a 30 day ad and investing that money back into the process seems like a solid thing and would give you some funds to grow it.

I really feel the potential for a very successful selling site hear is basically unlimited.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 10:49:55
nairb
 Be careful what you wish for.

Although I'm irritated as well by some of the changes 'over there', a Shadenfraud pile-on is counterproductive. Sending a letter/email with your complaints and suggestions as a registered member for improvements will be better for everyone involved. If your complaints/suggestions 'over there' are ignored then by all means pile-on.

That said I'm all for competition.

 

RE: You really think that? It used to be the most-heavily-trafficked audio site in the world. (nt), posted on January 31, 2012 at 11:24:15
Quadzilla
Audiophile

Posts: 4163
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Joined: July 31, 2003
 When I was in business school before the turn of the century, case studies had a challenge to them. The Audiogon meltdown would hardly challenge even mediocre minds. It seems pretty straightforward to me.




I am not allowed to have a signature line.

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 11:33:28
tnairb
 Let them hear from you:

http://support.audiogon.com/customer/portal/emails/new

 

RE: They AREN'T making money??? You sure?, posted on January 31, 2012 at 11:33:39
Dan_ed
 never said it was run properly. ;-)

I know what you're saying. I've talked with large dealers who do close to $1M in a year across agon in used equip. It could be a new group of investors who have more pull in what direction things go.

If this is all to pump the tires of some kid who just figured out what a database is I'd be real surprised.

 

Sad, actually., posted on January 31, 2012 at 12:18:00
shamburg
Audiophile

Posts: 340
Joined: June 26, 2002
 Audiogon is what made the high end possible for me, which is I'm sure true for lots of folks. So sad to see it wrecked.

 

That is worthless......, posted on January 31, 2012 at 12:18:10
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 ....I tried a few times. Goes down a black hole....


Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

"figured out what a database is" - that's the thing... looks like he didn't., posted on January 31, 2012 at 12:54:46
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Not entirely, at least.

Replicating search functionality of old Audiogon is NOTHING of a task for an experienced developer - alas, it's still not there, after all this time.

 

RE: 25 pages of new ads in the last five days, posted on January 31, 2012 at 13:07:53
docw
Audiophile

Posts: 8115
Location: So. California
Joined: July 23, 2004
Contributor
  Since: November 29, 2004
 I saw that this weekend, since I am trying to sell some items, and I backed out until I had more commentary and research from you folks!

What is the security issue?

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 13:11:05
docw
Audiophile

Posts: 8115
Location: So. California
Joined: July 23, 2004
Contributor
  Since: November 29, 2004
 Todd what are the supposed security issues?

I have to sell some stuff (we moved, smaller place).

 

To Arnie's defense with an apology from the forum community on viridian's behalf to Bill, posted on January 31, 2012 at 13:50:18
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4772
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Arnie composed the vast majority of code originally on that site. It was quite secure; he reported that attacks from Russian and other countries (looking for the usual passwords, cc info and the like) were on-going, and he could even discern the individual attackers coming from various IPs. Sometimes they would piss him off, so he would devise counter-attacks that were not only ingenious but also quite effective.

His code did a lot of other things, like parse your zip code and the like to minimize the work you had to do to set up an ad as one tiny example.

In my own interactions with Arnie he never came off as simply average intelligence; it was obvious from our first meeting that he was quite brilliant.

If you think that setting up a site that was as effective as Arnie's was is a simple matter, you are of course welcome to show us how its done.

 

RE: As it turns out, posted on January 31, 2012 at 14:02:29
Inmate51
 Does this mean we'll all have to type with an Indian call center accent?

Just askeeng.

:)

 

Bill Leebens is..., posted on January 31, 2012 at 14:16:23
Jim Smith
Industry Professional

Posts: 1097
Location: Atlanta, GA area
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Bill Leebens is one of the classiest people I know in audio.

How he could come under your radar is a complete mystery.

Best regards,

Jim Smith

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 14:31:17
3fd
Audiophile

Posts: 597
Location: Northeast
Joined: November 2, 2001
 You really think they aren't following all other sites threads about them?

 

Ralph my feelings are based on direct e-mail communications with Arnie......., posted on January 31, 2012 at 15:21:03
viridian
 so feel free to circle the wagons. I stand by my judgement based on, as I said, my personal interaction. Everyone has had an interaction with someone, at some time, that left a bad taste in their mouth. For me it was clearly with Arnie and for others here I may be leaving a bad taste in their mouth with my posts.

As far as my belief that one should identify themselves when they have had a financial relationship as Bill has, there are certainly no rules to this effect, however it is my personal feeling that not doing so does bring one's motivations into question. Of course, others will feel differently, as Jim Smith has so clearly articulated, and that is fine as well. We can certainly agree to disagree, charity auctions and helping old ladies across the street aside.

Ralph, I have the greatest respect for you based on our exchanges on Audiogon, but hey, if you want me out of your club, just say the word. I really have no problem with it. And I will no longer post here. However, I would greatly appreciate it if, in future, you do not appologize on my behalf when I have no intention of appologizing for myself.

 

Good point. I'll grant you that. (nt), posted on January 31, 2012 at 15:30:19
Bill Leebens
Manufacturer

Posts: 3578
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Nt

 

RE: True - but there's also a question..., posted on January 31, 2012 at 16:12:25
Plinko
Audiophile

Posts: 1708
Location: N East, USA
Joined: July 21, 2005
 Well the point was that if you want to go to the market, you go to Audiogon. Everyplace else pales in comparison. Can post web stats or whatever but the best stat to notice is whether ads are being bought.

People can bitch and whine about esoteric features like searching on three digits of a zip code (just search on the whole zip code lazy ass), the font, etc...but they will realize the true value of the site are not features to overcome their laziness but rather *the market* wherein *everyone* participates. Key words market and everyone. I would be shocked if the ridiculous comments about an impending demise come to fruition.

I do agree about taking down a seller's ad. That happened to me and I was pissed. They need some solution, however, to counteract all the dishonest audiophiles cheating them out of their fees.

 

Thinking along the same lines..., posted on January 31, 2012 at 16:18:37
clio09
Dealer

Posts: 1153
Location: San Rafael, CA
Joined: January 29, 2006
 I have always equated AA as a forum, with the classifieds sort of the red headed step child. I never gave much thought to selling on here, but always found the forums much more useful than Audiogon. Especially for technical advice.

Like others I'd welcome a new place to sell equipment, especially since I'm ramping up as a dealer/manufacturer. I was ready to go with Audiogon, but have put on the brakes for now to see how everything shakes out.

I would definitely welcome a more prominent classified area, even more so a newly branded classifieds/auction site that is operated by Rod & Co. I'd be willing to pay advertising and sales fees as well to help support it. However, I'm not certain what amount of effort is required to achieve this.

 

RE: 25 pages of new ads in the last five days, posted on January 31, 2012 at 16:21:53
Plinko
Audiophile

Posts: 1708
Location: N East, USA
Joined: July 21, 2005
 I dunno. It never really was explained...probably because the person making the claim appears to be clueless about internet security. The comment about it no longer being done centrally (and how awful that was) was the giveaway.

Then someone else said some shady ads were posted. Gee, when has that ever happened? I have never seen shady ads on Audiogon or Ebay, have you?

 

RE:Bill Leebens is one of the classiest people I know in audio. ?!?, posted on January 31, 2012 at 17:25:53
Cpk
Audiophile

Posts: 1518
Location: PA
Joined: May 13, 2005
 Really?!? God that is a letdown.............;-)

Seriously he was nice even to the little people like me when he was there. It is too bad things have run amok. Unfortunately perhaps a foreshadowing of the industry as a whole…..crap.

 

RE:Bill Leebens is one of the classiest people I know in audio. ?!?, posted on January 31, 2012 at 18:02:52
Brian Walsh
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 10768
Location: IL
Joined: December 6, 1999
 "Unfortunately perhaps a foreshadowing of the industry as a whole?"

No, merely a sign of changes at Agon which appear to be for the worse and from which they may not recover.

I agree with you, Chris. Bill is one of the good guys, championing the cause of what's best for consumers and the industry alike and never too busy to listen.
Brian Walsh

 

RE: A'gon security in the good old days/goodbye to Arnie, posted on January 31, 2012 at 20:09:24
Duke
Dealer

Posts: 4429
Location: Princeton, Texas
Joined: March 31, 2000
 A couple years ago someone apparently hacked my Audiogon account and accessed it from a foreign web address without me knowing about it. The first I heard of it was, someone from Audiogon called me up on my cell phone to tell me about it! (I was on a long road trip so I didn't know they'd e-mailed me.) Audiogon had locked my account as a precaution.

After speaking with me, the Audiogon person re-enabled my account long enough for me to log on and change my password, and no harm was done. Needless to say, that degree of security and customer care made a very good impression on me.

* * * *

I wish you well, Arnie. You always treated me like a friend, even the first time at Rocky Mountain, when we'd never met before.

Duke

Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.

 

RE: Sad, actually., posted on January 31, 2012 at 20:18:40
Duke
Dealer

Posts: 4429
Location: Princeton, Texas
Joined: March 31, 2000
 As a dealer, Audiogon was a key part of my business; probably half of my customers needed to sell something they currently owned in order to afford the new thing they wanted from me. Audiogon made that relatively easy.

Duke


Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.

 

Good firsthand info, posted on January 31, 2012 at 20:34:23
Brian Walsh
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 10768
Location: IL
Joined: December 6, 1999
 It matches what others have said, but your direct experience you've shared above is helpful. By all reports it was Arnie's know-how and hard work that made the site what it was, notably including security. Now that it seems somebody left the barn door open for who knows what to wander in. A pity.
Brian Walsh

 

RE: If true, that's a very bad news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 20:34:45
ErikM
Audiophile

Posts: 96
Location: New Jersey
Joined: November 13, 2004
 There are a LOT of issues at Audiogon.. I recently tried to start advertising there.. it was a disaster.. After a week of asking where my ad was I emailed them to let them know I wouldn't continue, since I couldn't ever see my ad and they couldn't even show me a screen shot of my ad, of course I kept getting some mumbo jumbo about how it works and how it's controlled by an outside server system.. Surprise the next day after letting them know I wouldn't be going forward my ad started to appear.. when I asked about it in a nice non confrontational way I was slammed.. the next day I was presented with a bill for the time my ad was supposedly running, but that wasn't correct and didn't abide by the terms of their own agreement.. they weren't real happy about being called out on that either, I'll now have to dispute it via the credit card company.. A'gon is so f'ed up..

I can see how all of these problems could be tied up with Arnie Chinta leaving, there is some serious turmoil going on behind the scenes.. you can just feel it.. really a shame..

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on January 31, 2012 at 21:23:43
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "Todd what are the supposed security issues?"

I don't know personally. Haven't gone far beyond the front page. But others are better versed on this.

I'd suggest try the classified section here on AA.

 

RE: If true, that's a very bad news, posted on February 1, 2012 at 03:33:51
ron w2
 Arnie leaving isn't the reason all of this is happening. Corruption, politics and arrogance have been the order of the day at Audiogon for a few years. It won't be long before Audiogon is just a distant memory. This is a great opportunity for other sites. Like this one.

 

RE: To Arnie's defense with an apology from the forum community on viridian's behalf to Bill, posted on February 1, 2012 at 04:26:26
nairb
 "..he could even discern the individual attackers coming from various IPs"

Noit that it's foolproof, but can't understand why anyone up to that stuff wouldn't use good IP address masking software?

 

RE: If true, that's a very bad news, posted on February 1, 2012 at 06:49:04
ErikM
Audiophile

Posts: 96
Location: New Jersey
Joined: November 13, 2004
 I posted the question of Arnie leaving on the Audiogon Facebook page.. it was taken off in hours..Audiogon is actively censoring any bad press they can control..

 

RE: Ralph my feelings are based on direct e-mail communications with Arnie......., posted on February 1, 2012 at 09:01:50
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4772
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Well I see it a little differently. The audiogon thing has been a debacle, with it being clear that the kids trying to 'renovate' the site are clearly in over their heads. So I know there are a lot of upset people out there surrounding this matter. However I just don't see that Bill was deserving of your attack- we can all afford to be cordial. And as you have pointed out, you were not planning an apology, so it appeared that someone would have to step up to the plate.

Years ago I was attacked by Stereophile (related to the reviewer rolling bad tubes into one of our products and then commenting on it as if the resulting malfunction was part of the normal operation of the unit). I was heartened by the fact that a good number of other publications apologized on Stereophile's behalf. When things get tense, or if the wool has been pulled over the eyes of a number of people (and in this case, what I mean is that that we are probably not going to get the whole picture of what went down at audiogon), sometimes its just better to maintain decorum when dealing with those that are left standing and quite possibly holding the bag.

I think this is one of those times. It seems obvious that audiogon's day in the sun is rapidly coming to an end, and there are bad feelings all over. Collectively we need to take a deep breath and move on; I'm not taking you to task on being a bad person, just that we need to be easy on each other. I know people that made their living on that site that are now dead in the water. Its just a sad, stupid and avoidable situation but what is done seems to be done, unless a miracle occurs. In the absence of such we simply have to be nice to each other.

 

RE: To Arnie's defense with an apology from the forum community on viridian's behalf to Bill, posted on February 1, 2012 at 09:11:14
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4772
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 I'm sure they did; not sure how many were genuine hackers as opposed to script kitties.

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on February 1, 2012 at 09:47:41
djcxxx
Audiophile

Posts: 73
Location: South Florida
Joined: April 14, 2003
 Difficult to believe that a longstanding and prosperous site such as Audiogon could euthanize itself so rapidly and foolishly. There has to be more to this story than someone's imbecile son given free reign to destroy the business by destroying the user interface??

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on February 1, 2012 at 10:17:46
nickwh
Audiophile

Posts: 495
Location: New Jersey
Joined: January 25, 2003
 Did anyone happen to notice that the new AudioGon site is hosted on Amazon Web Services? I'm guessing they went from dedicated webserver hardware to virtual machines "in the cloud" as a cost savings move. This likely explains the poor performance of the new site. I'm all for server virtualization, but on a highly shared platform like AWS, you have no control of the underlying infrastructure.

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on February 1, 2012 at 11:10:43
Bjesien
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Location: USA
Joined: September 30, 2007
 I know a local guy that owned a tree moving business for 30 years. Had a fleet of ten trucks that services New England. Within two years of his son taking it over it was gone.

I know the last three item I posted on Audiogon didn't sell, and I couldn't find them a few times. Really is too bad.

 

RE: You don't say?, posted on February 1, 2012 at 12:18:26
Jeff Kaplan
Dealer

Posts: 1
Location: California
Joined: February 1, 2012
 My business and the business of so many more have also been severely impacted by the Epic Audiogon Disaster!

If the Audiogon community can't find a site to replace Audiogon, it will have ripple effects for the entire audio industry for years to come.

Dealers won't be able to effectively sell trade-in or consignment gear to enable that customer to upgrade to New Gear!

Non Dealers can't sell their gear to enable them to buy New or other used Gear.

eBay's an Option, but very limited - Selling fees for Fixed Ads up to $1000.00 5% + 3% or 4% for PayPal Fees which you can't ask the buyer to pay. This Averages to 8%-9%. Auction Ads are 9% + 3-4% Making the minimum cost 12% for US Transactions.

Jeff Kaplan

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on February 1, 2012 at 13:13:11
acousticsounds
 Audiogon. Take a popular easy to navigate website, hose it, and send angry members screaming bloody murder across the internet forums.

 

A bright guy, posted on February 1, 2012 at 13:18:31
DemSpinner
Audiophile

Posts: 180
Location: DC
Joined: February 18, 2010
 I knew Arnie through Accutronics. He is a bright guy, and that's the highest praise I give anyone.

Also a nice guy.

 

RE: Well, our Asylum Ads are up 20% and traffic has more than doubled....., posted on February 1, 2012 at 14:51:52
Rich Brkich
Dealer

Posts: 832
Location: Near Syracuse, New York
Joined: April 3, 2000
 Rod,

I for one would pay (extra) for adds that get listed on the appropriate forum page and a bit more for a feature on the home page. For example, if I could have a classified listed advertising turntables to have the add title/header (text) appear in a column set on the right side of the Vinyl forum - that would be awesome.

I think part of the issue with the Asylum classifieds has been that they need much more presence (ok - advertising in the Asylum's own forums) so that folks that visit here know that they exist. Give the Asylum Classifieds more prominent featured mentions around the site (especially on the Asylum's home page - dedicate say a third of the space on the home page to it.... OK no mentions in individual posts, but on the main forum pages for example there should be more side-bar type activity mentioning and promoting the classifieds) - and they will get much more attention and traffic from potential buyers.

Just my 2 cents...


Happy Listening,
Rich Brkich
Ownwer/Operator Signature Sound

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on February 1, 2012 at 15:24:27
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 I noticed that the other day. My buddy runs his sites on dedicated servers which it seems like you can get from Amazon. Figuring out what AWS actually offers is not easy. It looks like it's all visualization. I looked into that a bit when we configured our new server, but didn't see what the advantage would be for us. For ISPs, sure.

-Rod

 

How much?, posted on February 1, 2012 at 15:46:40
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Yeah, I was thinking the same thing for the home page.

Those would have to randomly rotate with folks that have "paid" for featured ads. Putting more on the right side of the forum index pages is also surely doable. Again, how much?

We had some basic pay logic in the app, but it was pretty much stripped out a few years ago when we updated it and added image uploaded and whatnot. The bulk is still there as membership contributions do get logged in a transaction file, so most of the work is UI and subtracting from the accumulated contribution for ad features.

In the meantime, LIST you stuff!


-Rod

 

RE: Audiogon news, posted on February 1, 2012 at 16:47:11
Br3098
Audiophile

Posts: 255
Location: Southern California
Joined: December 23, 2009
 I do not believe that AWS itself the problem with Audiogon. Lots of my customers run parts of their business on Cloud services, be it AWS, AT&T, IBM or whatever. The problem is not with the virtualized server(s), it's what you do with them. There are several advantages to running a high traffic site on a service like AWS that hosts directly on a NOC or NAP location.

It is almost certain that these guys had poor execution - poor planning, poor testing (if any) and poor judgement. Glueing old and new code together is a almost always recipe for disaster. And who ever heard of going live to the general public in Beta? Test and test and then test again first is the rule.

 

I totally agree...., posted on February 1, 2012 at 17:18:45
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 And after you test, test, test.

Watch the error logs when you go live because you'll find plenty that you missed, and fix the broken stuff fast!

I didn't mean to imply that AWS was a problem. It's just hard to figure out exactly what you're getting. My impression is that you can get whatever compute power and memory that you need and have the ability to scale dynamically. In addition, you have nearly unlimited bandwidth for peak traffic hits.

As I mentioned, my buddy uses a similar service though they use dedicated servers rather than virtual ones. He loves it. No hardware to worry about and they backup everything and fix whatever breaks. In fact, he also hosts our image server which offloads our bandwidth.

Implementation, planning and experience are key. I've learned to take lots of time and go slowly though I'm known to get reckless at times. With our new server, I had it up for nearly a month with password protected test domains for testing and we didn't even change any code!

I was discussing this whole Agon upgrade today with a Bored member and wondered why they didn't upgrade the VideoGon site first. It gets far less traffic and is far less important to their cash flow. Since it appears to be a common code base, I would have done my beta there.

I also would have previewed it to the community for feedback.

-Rod

 

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