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Re: Dear Mr. Welborne...

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john

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In Reply to: Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... posted by EdT on January 24, 2001 at 10:40:06:

Have you heard the De Capos w/ the Laurels? The few reviews I read re. the De Capos seem to point to the fact that the manufacturer was a little "generous" in giving this speaker's efficiency ratings (as well as impedance characteristics): 87-89db as opposed to the manuf. listed 92db. It seems that quite a few manufacturers are in the habit of "fudging" their specs. Are these differences something I should be concerned about? Going the PP route doesn't sound very appealing; on the other hand I'm not ready to have my living room invaded by horns. Suggestions?

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Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... Ron W. 14:10:10 01/25/01 (3)
Yes, this is definitely something you should be concerned with because 90-92dB is what I would consider a borderline speaker for an 8 watt SE amp, i.e. some will work fine and some won't. And thus if your speaker is really only 87dB (i.e. the numbers have been fudged) there is a VERY GOOD possibly that you will be dissappointed.
Ron
- Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... john 15:46:37 01/26/01 (2)
  Thanks Ron, for the advice (re. "Bad Advice"); its obvious that what you do is a labor of love, and I certainly respect that. Craftsmanship is a dying art in this country; perhaps because it is no longer "profitable."
  Since SETs are more or less in opposition to the current (at least in this country) hi-end state of mind (discounting flavor of the month trends), those of us who value quality over quantity will tend to have slim pickings indeed, esp. in regards to speaker choices.
  Don't get me wrong, I am intrigued by some of the numerous horn designs (namely the Oris and Avantegarde); however, in my case, I'm not so sure I'm ready to take the plunge. Aside from budget (esp. in the case of the A-garde) and space concerns, I have to admit that (at least psychologically), I don't like the compromised nature of most horn designs: especially when it comes to integrating the low frequencies. The Oris horn for example: my mind simply rebels at the notion that a bass cabinet can blend seamlessly w/ a pair of Lowther drivers. True, I've never heard them, but in the past, I have never been able to tolerate b-shelf speakers w/ subwoofers, or even many other typical 3-way designs that most people found unobjectionable, were completely disturbing for me.
  As I mentioned in another post, I listen to (and play) a lot of solo piano, so you could say that I'm pretty familiar w/ the sound of that instrument. The piano has a very complex sound to it: equally percussive and musical. So many systems I've heard completely disintegrate when trying to reproduce its sound (even at low volumes, and esp. in the lower registers).
  I guess you can say that I'm looking for something that preserves not only the delicacy and impact of the instrument, but keeps it together as a seamless whole. (I know, I should get a disklavier, right? To bad the selections are so lousy.)
  What I'm saying, is that my research has led me to the fact that SETs preserve not only the delicacy but potentially the impact and full-range coherence as well-- the question is what kind of speaker could best display these qualities? Again, I'm not looking to blow my eardrums out, just something that holds together under reasonable (yes, I know "reasonable" is a rather subjective term) volume levels.
  Any opinions, suggestions? What are your thoughts on the Alon Lotus?
  In any case, I apologize for carrying on like this. Just another hyper-sensitive, obsessive-compulsive audiomaniac: but then again, SET types are probably the worst of the worst. I guess you have your work cut out for you...
  - Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... Ron W. 01:50:16 01/30/01 (0)
    John,
    The only way you can really have your cake and eat it too, i.e. use an SET amp and obtain the dynamics you desire, is to go with a horn system.
    As for horn systems, the Lowther is my preference because it is a full range driver and thus does not require a crossover. Not using a crossover completely eliminates the phase and distortion problems associated with them. I also prefer the soundstage a point source driver provides. And as for dynamics, the Lowthers are hard to beat if you are using low powered amps.
    The Lowther's one short coming is its bottom end. If you can live with 50Hz bass then a cabinet like the Medallions, Hedlunds, Lamhorns, etc. can make you happy for life. These designs will give you quick, clean, detailed, natural and very dynamic sound...even at very low volumes! Piano and percussion is incredible on this type of speaker!
    If you need 30-40Hz bass, then you make a slight compromise and cross the Lowther over to a bass cabinet. Yes, you lose a little bit of the dynamics on the **bottom end**, but IMO you gain the body and fullness of the original recording which really compliments the Lowther's midrange capabilities.
    Biamping is tricky but it can be done and if done correctly should sound better than driving a multi-driver system with one amp.
    I'll tell ya....I've been chasing this speaker issue around for several years. I've listened to a ton of speakers both new and vintage (I go to all the audio shows searching for speakers) and I'm not pushing this Oris speaker just to make a buck. If I wasn't selling it, I'd still be telling people to check them out. I sell what I like to listen to and I wouldn't bother to import a speaker or product just for the sake of having it to sell, i.e. there are plenty of good speakers made right here in the U.S. that I could be selling. Prior to the Oris I lived with the Medallion cabinets for well over two years. If my wife were to deliver the ultimatum..."either the Oris horns go or I go"...I could easily go back to the Medallion cabinets. The Lamhorns are very nice too.
    Ron
  - Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... riki 17:40:00 01/29/01 (0)
    John: A quick thought on this before I get dinner ready: I also use Lowthers, however in the more common Medallion II cabinet from Lowther - America...a speaker system Ron also was/is very familiar with before the Oris. Bert Doppenberg also liked the Medallion, but was convinced of finding yet another, subjectively 'better' approach to emplyment of Lowther drivers. I suspect your concern for integration of higher and lower frequencies has in part to do with the rather quick reflexes of Lowthers. All I have heard about the Oris system (properly set up -- which is dependent on all sort of factors) is that it is very, very good. I also was a musician for a long time (drums and percussion), and Lowthers easily provide the most lifelike reproduction/illusion of the real thing I have heard. The Medallions do not go very low, however they are very capable within quite a broad bandwidth for a single-'full-range' driver. And as you say, Avante-Garde (check my spelling on that one)systems are too expensive -- unless you have too much money, which teachers like me don't. If you have never heard Lowthers, try to before a more serious committment to the Alon Lotus you mentioned. High and mid frequencies can be almost scary real, and sound superb with SETs like Ron's Moondogs (dear companions of mine!)and other circuits. Bert D. and Ron know Lowthers intimately, and have done considerable research/trial and error experimentation regarding that issue of integrating them with bass cabs, both with and without crossovers. But driver integration is not a problem peculiar to Lowthers -- any multi-way system is going to have certain idiosyncracies regarding how well it can blend high and low notes -- and related transients. Crossovers are sort of a necessary evil, I guess, in this respect. I really like the crossoverless Medallion system, but wish I could maybe afford to try the Oris horns. I think they are a very wise resolution to the Lowther (happy) problem. And flared horns like that have been used since the 20s! I have two such antique horns that I use for some old receivers I have restored -- and they are just a blast to listen to -- however, like their more contemporary bretheren, are a bit shy with bass response. If you can't afford Oris horns, consider, perhaps some other Lowther designs -- they are wonderful after having been broken in and loosened up a bit.
    Erik
Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... EdT 07:33:53 01/25/01 (2)
john, sorry I haven't heard the decapo-laurel combination.
But 300B should be sufficient. Keep in mind that reference3a
designs speakers to be driven by SET. The descripency on
efficency seems significant, whether true or not, you would
be the ultimate judge. Give the Laurel a try and just return it if
it doesn't work out. (by the way I have a 1.5W amp driving a
92db and 93 db speakers; people also had success with the bigger
royal master using 2A3).
- BAD ADVICE Ron W. 14:05:49 01/25/01 (1)
  Quote:
  "Give the Laurel a try and just return it if it doesn't work out."
  Welborne Labs discontinued it's 30 day audition policy on assembled products for this VERY reason. Too many people were buying our amps just to see if they had enough power to drive their inefficient speakers! They weren't auditioning the amps for their **sound quality**, they just wanted to see if the Laurels could drive their Martin Logan CLS speakers.
  I think many of you have lost sight of the fact that most of us SE Amp manufacturers are very small, underfunded and understaffed companies. We don't have 10, 20, 50 or 100 amps already assembled and waiting in the warehouse for your order(s). In fact it's just the opposite, most of us assemble a product as we receive an order from the customer or dealer. And so I personally grew very tired of sucking solder fumes at 1AM in the morning for some ungrateful customer that would eventually return the product soley because it wasn't enough power for their speaker. I truly felt I was being used and taken advantage of.
  I think if you do some investigating you will find that most of us SE amp manufacturers are really more interested in our customers being satisfied with a product than we are in making as a sale for the sake of making a sale. And therefore you will find us more willing to take the time to consult with you PRIOR to the sale. In fact we make ourselves very accessible via the phone, e-mail and user forums like this one. Call up Bottlehead, Inc. and you can talk to Dan Schmalle. Call up Art Audio and Joe Fratus will most likely answer the phone. Call up Wavelength Audio...and yep, you'll be talking to Gordon Rankin. Call up some of the big name companies that specialize in 200 watt push pull amps and see if you recognize the name of the sales/technical support person on the other end of the line.
  I personally will not sell an amp to a customer if after consulting with him I determine that his speaker is not a good match. BTW, this goes for the kits too. And because of this I know I have turned away many a discouraged customer because they REALLY wanted one of my amps!
  But in the past, I had too many customers that weren't totally honest about the speakers they planned to use or they would order the amp online without consulting with me and two weeks later want to return it because "the Moondogs just weren't enough power for my Quads". "Well hell, If I had known you were using Quads, I never would have sold you the amp..." I have said....and thus, the 30 day audition period was history at Welborne Labs.
  So please, don't purchase an SE amp just to see if it has enough power for your speakers. Do your homework before you make a purchase. Consult with the AMP MANUFACTURER before you buy their product. Borrow a friend's SE amp to see if it will drive your speakers. It doesn't have to be the same model or brand...if an 8 watt Welborne Labs amp won't drive your speakers, an 8 watt Wright Audio or Wavelength Audio amp isn't going to drive them either.
  Please take a moment to consider the amount of time, money and effort an SE amp manufactuer will spend processing your order just so you can find out if 8 watts is enough power for your speakers. And then put yourself in our shoes and see if you'd mind going through this process a half dozen times each month.
  OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry for the ranting..
  Ron
  - Re: BAD ADVICE EdT 15:36:34 01/25/01 (0)
    okay, I didn't know the trial thing was stopped. I just thought
    you had some dealers that would have that option. True,
    I woudln't do it if I were you.

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