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65.215.10.1
And if so, wouldn't boosting the gain resolve that?There was a post recently that mentioned a user's impression that the DL-103 was not dynamic enough for him and I was wondering if that is not because he was not using enough gain.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
Follow Ups:
If you believe electronics theory then you will believe that gain does absolutely nothing for dynamic range. Dynamic Range in dB is 20log(Vmax/Vmin). You can see from the formula that multiplying Vmax by the gain and Vmin by the gain yeilds nothing in terms of dynamic range, in essence you are just multiplying by one.
To clarify I am using a Bent Audio MU step up at 10 X's I think. It sounds as if it has more gain with this combo than my 10x5 HOMC. The 10x5 defenitly sounds more dynamic. But there is also the TT to consider. The MMF-5 may be more dynamic than the MMF-7. The MMF-7 uses acrylic as opsed to the MMF-5 has a glass platter. So the TT has as much to do with it.As far as my question. Has anyone heard both the shelter and dynavector carts. Say the 501 and 901 verses the 17d and xx2? I'm thinking about upgrading my table to an Origin Live Aurora with Silver tone arm. The seller says the TT is very lively. He says he prefers the 501 to the 17d. But I'm a fan of the dynavector sound. So I'm wondering what the pluses and minuses are of the carts are.
only got the one. it's an NAD533 with a MDF platter. They say that the MDF is sonicly between acryllic[warm] and glass[cold]."They" being the omnipresent, omniscient, omniopinionated, ethereal, suggesting, and authoritative, ones. We are now partaking of their vastness.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
upon the sytem as to the systems dynamic output. If we reduce it to only the cartridge in question, then yes, the higher output cartridge would be the most dynamic. In the context of your question, it could be that the user did not have the optimum phonostage for his cartridge. Few people do.
The trouble with LOMC cartridges (and I favor those personally) has always been suitable amplification to take full advantage of their abilities. Higher gain in itself does certainly help with dynamics but it also brings increased noise to the picture. In some instances such as with many tube gain stages, you need a higher input level to maximize the SNR and dynamic range. You are often better off with a HOMC in that case. Each case is definately unique and each system has other variables so this is obviously a generalization. I tend to select cartridges for use with the existing phonostage to overcome this. If you know that you will be upgrading the phonostage, then you could go ahead with a lower output cartridge installation and wait it out, otherwise stick with a higher output cartridge.
-Bill
My Bugle is humble but admirable and not noisy at 50dB. Adding the cheapo Denon AU300LC SUT will give me 70dB which, from what I am reading, will give me more than enough gain to resolve the DL-103.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
but let's not confuse gain with resolution...
-Bill
bad choice of words.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
..."not using enough gain", would also be my guess.
.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
I had a HO dyna 20x and went to a LO. I think the low output is making my respectable but not great MoFi inboard phono stage work harder, cancelling the improvement. Am I right? A low output cart's sound might be better realized with a good phono stage?
You can't resolve detail nor dynamics if you do not have enough gain. The cart may sound dull. that was the nature of my question.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
I saw that post too, shame on you Ray!Dynamic is often confused with "loudness". Dynamic used in this sense is simply put the ability to resolve the difference between "quietest and loudest". This in turn requires that the cartridge trace the information in the groove reacting to the slighest change.
In my experience and from results from my personal cartridge collection the most dynamic cartridge I have has an output of only 0.1mV @ 2 ohms.
I am convinced you are right. Over the past ten+ years I have seen how many have been caught up in the DL-103 frenzy, great sound for pennies, and in the end did not have adequate amplification ... regardless of how it is achieved.
Cheers!
When I was using a 1:10 ratio step up transformer and preamp with 54 dB total gain the "loudness" or volume was adequate but the dynamics were lacking in comparison with the 1:36 ratio step up transformer.More gain is good! My system does not play "louder" with the additional gain, it plays more "dynamically" at the same volume levels as before.
I hope that paragraph makes sense to someone...
--
Al GTravelin' light; It's the only way to fly - J.J. Cale
so boosting the signal with a transformer before getting to the active stage is what you are talking about. I will be using a 1:10 ration that is hardwired on the AU300LC so I may look into upgrading that with the Cinemag's later.At 1:36 you must only have to nudge the volume a tiny bit.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
Even though the 1:36 step up has much more gain, the load presented to the cartridge is close to the cartridge's internal impedance so the Denon's output is roughly halved.My volume knob is very close to the position where it was with a 1:10 transformer when playing at similar SPL's.
--
Al GTravelin' light; It's the only way to fly - J.J. Cale
I did read all the stuff about the Cinemag's recently but copped out on the Denon. It's tuff to get things done in a sane way around this house with all these kids. Soldering in this chaos is nuts, I tell ya.Would increasing resistance dimish dynamics? What I understand you are saying is that increasing resistance increases dynamcis. Impedance is always a rubics cube for me.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
The more loading resistance is increased the more that resistance will cut the output of the cartridge.With a 1:36 step up, the cartridge can be loaded down to it's internal resistance (40 ohms for a Denon Dl-103) but still have the same output level as if it was loaded "lighter" and used less of a step up.
Garth is able to explain this better than I...
--
Al GTravelin' light; It's the only way to fly - J.J. Cale
stats on the Denon SUT says 40ohms so that should take care of load against the carts internal impedance?It will still see 470 ohms coming from the phono preamp set at 470k ohms.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
47K ohms. Denon says 40 ohms as the range of cartridge impedance "they" recommend. But for the Denon 103 they recommend 100 ohms or less.The problem is being only a 1:10 ratio it will become essentially useless if the secondary load were less. If the 103 is optimally loaded with that Denon rannie the stepup ratio is only about 1:5 ...TOTALLY WORTHLESS!
then I will stay as is since it seems that I am stuck with doing that anyway. :-)"They" must realize that most users of this SUT are going into 47k so that this transformer must perform just right that way ... will see.
thanks for your input because that actually make things easier, not having to worry about loading the cart.
... unless I increase gain in the Bugle. Where is that evil laugh coming from?
~Slainte,
The OMalley
the DL-160 I have is splashy in this regard. I was hoping that the DL-103 would not be a step away from this.Your reply is most appreciated.
BTW, It is also pleasure to be draging you into combative situations.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
I understand what dynamics and dynamic range are.
However, my experience does not match yours on this issue.Of course, the only thing I can draw from that was truly an apples-to-apples conparison was the case of the Benz L-M-H trio.
In my system and in the dealer's system at that time, it appeared to me that the difference between the L and the H was in dynamics and low end authority. The "H" being the better of the two.
The "jump" factor from lack of a better expressive term, seemed to be greater and more life-like on the higher output version of that cartridge.Perhaps this is true of the Benz's but not necessarily true of others?
I don't know.In fact, are there any other examples of identical cartridges that are available at different output levels? Again, I don't know.
Just one dude's opinion :-)
cheers,
Close to the Edge, down by the river....
-Ray
Sorry, just havin' fun...it's Humpday.I have gone through the test you mentioned with initially three different Gliders a L, M and H output. The low output was by far the most dynamic. But the test is very imperfect since you have to change the gain to accomedate all three.
Years later I had the opportunity to have at the same time a Transfig. Spirit(0.4mV), Espirit(2.5ishmV) and a prototype of a LO Spirit with 0.1mV, this is not the cartridge I referred to above. These three products were all essentially the same save for changes to the output levels via additional windings.
The 0.1mV version was by far the most dynamic and realistic of the three. The designer hated the Espirit (and the SHO which was essentially the same thing made for Sumiko) and found he could deliver essentially everything he had put into his original design for alot less money but alas nobody (except for me) wanted it due to the low output.
Cheers!
I'm telling you, we tried to level match as well as possible and it sure did seem that the dynamic expression of the higher output Benz was better.
Close to the Edge, down by the river....
-Ray
In my system with the Benz wood bodied L,M and H line that is also my experience. I’ve since moved up to an EbonyH and it’s giving me both full rich dynamic sound and a well extended lower end. It could very well be a Benz/system issue. In any case I'm more than pleased with their H's.
.
Close to the Edge, down by the river....
-Ray
but it's not exactly black or white. In theory, all things being equal, the LOMC should be more dynamic (lighter on its feet if you like). BUT there are good examples of HOMC's that disprove the theory.In other words all things are never equal.
.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
I don't think HOs are more dynamic as a group. I think you will find dynamic and not-so-dynamic examples in both categories. Of my two LO MCs, the OC9ML/II is slightly more dynamic than my DL-103, but not a night v. day difference. I'd say both are as dynamic as the HO MC I'm most familiar with, the Denon DL-160.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
because the DL-160 is what I am using. It gets 50dB and sounds great.With the AU300LC going into the Bugle the DL-103 will wind up with 70dB which should be more than enough.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
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