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In Reply to: Yeah, it is nice not to hear the needle/groove interaction effect, isn't it? posted by jeromelang on July 30, 2004 at 21:43:28:
>David Chesky was said to have commented something about how the magic of vinyl playback is inexplicably tied to the way a stylus coursing through a record groove.<True. The concentrated pressure of the stylus on the groove walls deforms the walls as the cartridge plays (the vinyl subsequently returns to its original shape). And if the test pressing of a given LP was checked with a normal physical-contact cartridge, this means that the LP was mastered to sound the best with the groove in pressure-deformed state.
With a laser turntable, you don't get the pressure-induced deformation, so when you listen to an LP with a laser turntable, you are actually listening to an LP with a different groove shape than if you had used a conventional physical-contact cartridge.
If it ever becomes popular to check test pressings of LPs with laser turntables, the LPs will be mastered to sound their best with the groove in non-deformed state, and laser turnatables will likely be the playback devices of choice. But up to now, I have consistently had much better sonic results with physical-contact cartridges.
>Remove the inherent scraping sound of needle in groove.<
Keeping the groove clean and using a carefully-researched and intelligently-designed stylus that has been properly aligned (including user setup) will do a great deal to reduce the subjective effects of playback noise. And in my opinion and experience, the groove deformation issue and how this condition during playback affects the mastering of LPs is a far more significant issue.
hth, jonathan carr
Follow Ups:
Hi Jonathan,I wonder if you could elaborate more on the specifics of mastering. If we are talking about boosting and cutting certain frequencies, couldn’t that easily be reversed in the playback electronics of the Laser Turntable?
Lately, I’ve been testing different cartridges and they each sound a little different. Furthermore, it seems obvious to me from reading comments in this forum that every different turntable and every different phono stage also have a unique sonic signature. Therefore, how do you determine whether the Laser Turntable is doing something wrong or whether it is doing things right, but just a little differently? Do you make measurements?
Thanks,
John Elison
Hi John: Long time...No, I am not talking about only EQ. The precise distance that the mastering engineer allows the cutting stylus to protrude from the clamp, the torque that he uses on the securing setscrew, the choice of drive amp, what lacquer blank is chosen, the choice of cables used to connect everything together, these and more all have an effect on the final sound. I have been close to Takawa and the guys at King Records (we've supplied equipment to them), and according to them, not only do they listen to the results of the test pressing and readjust/redo the cutting process until they are happy, each cutting engineer has a certain individual "sound" that is hard if not impossible for other cutting engineers to duplicate exactly. And since they adjust the mastering/cutting process according to what they hear from the test pressings, if you change their environment for checking test pressings, the final outcome will also differ. Incidentally, if I recall correctly, Takawa said that he uses different cables in lieu of eq - he had a wide range of cables and would pick a combination depending on the listening results that he would get from the master tape and also from the test pressings. There is a lot of craftsmanship and individuality involved in mastering and cutting LPs, not only quantifiable engineering decisions.
> Lately, I?e been testing different cartridges and they each sound a little different. <
Yes, and frequently those difference are more than just a little different (when you talk to cartridge designers, it is very clear that each designer has a different "take" on music and what are the most important musical aspects for him). On top of that, every audio system has its characteristic idiosyncracies. Many times a cartridge may sound good or not so good depending on how well it interacts with a specific environment and how well it is set up. In my experience, an equipment review is actually just a much a review of the reviewer (and his capabilities or lack of them) as it is of the equipment being reviewed.
> Furthermore, it seems obvious to me from reading comments in this forum that every different turntable and every different phono stage also have a unique sonic signature. <
Yes, also every tone arm, and in my experience many line stages and power amps also, not to mention speakers (I should add the caveat "_may_ have a unique sonic signature", because changes that affect the sound of some systems may not manifest themselves in other systems, and vice versa). And because we cannot listen to any piece of equipment in isolation, how good the sound is from a given equipment depends not only its performance potential but also how well it gets along with the other equipment, the person doing the setup, and the person doing the listening.
> Therefore, how do you determine whether the Laser Turntable is doing something wrong or whether it is doing things right, but just a little differently? <
What is "right" or "wrong" depends on how you view things and what you want to do. If you want to play back an LP thousands of times and have no measureable groove wear, a non-contact system like the laser turntable is definitely the right way to go.
However, the LP groove deforms under the pressure of a mechanical stylus, and the sound of an LP played twice in a row is different from what is if you only play it a listen to it once. So the temporary groove deformation absolutely affects the sound. I know some mastering engineers who base their mastering and cutting decisions on the sound of the second play, not the first. But I don't know of any mastering engineers so far who have based their mastering and cutting decisions on the sound of a non-contact playback system.
> Do you make measurements? <
The mastering and cutting engineers that I know have used their ears first and foremost.
hth, jonathan carr
PS. As an aside, we have also supplied LP cleaning equipment to the Japanese importer of the laser turntable.
What types of mastering equipment have you supplied the folks at King with? Do you modify cutterheads (upgrade the coils, etc.), lathes, cutting electronics (I spose a reverse RIAA Connoisseur preamp would work nicely!), etc.? I would be interested to know what you guys do, given your rep for very high quality.Mike
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