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In Reply to: Re: Jadis JA-500 -vs- Audio Research REF300 posted by Jonathan on August 04, 2001 at 13:13:48:
Hi Jonathan,
Interesting! I have read the review from the Ultimate Audio about the Tenor Audio. AFA I know this is a circlotron OTL type amplifier, which is very similar to the Atma-sphere OTL. However, one of the major problem from OTL amplifier: It must match with a very high impedance loudspeakers to avoid the technical and sonic problems. Sonically, OTL with most of the conventional load loudspeakers on the market would make the bottom end losing energy and weight. Technically, which might burn the speaker drivers by DC from the amplifier itself, due to the difficult load from the speakers to the tubes.However, I really would like to hear this amplifier what is sound like.
Regards,
PPT
Follow Ups:
I am not sure that it is a circlotron design. I am running Wilson MAXX speakers which are 91-92db with a 4 ohm load that drops to about 3. When I used the Atma-sphere MA2 MKII.2's there was never any problem with bottom end enrgy or control and the same goes for the Tenor Audio 75WI's.I have been using OTL's for quite some time and my speakers appear to love them. As good as the Atma-spere's are, even at 225 watts or so, the Tenor's at 75 watts, are amazingly more clear and full bodied. I am not talking coloration. Both amps are extremely neutral. The Tenor's just sound much more like the instruments do live. I find it hard to use the typical audiophile terms with the Tenor's because they are unlike anything I have ever heard. They just do everything well and some things better than anything I could have imagined. The Atma-sphere's have just become the second best amps I have ever heard or owned. The Tenor's deliver real power, real dynamics, with a purity and clarity that, I dare say, does not exist in any other amplification device. I am sure with my speakers the Tenor's will not dirve them to 120 db, but who cares. I want to hear music and not show off.
I am sure with an 8 ohm speaker, the amplifiers would not work as hard, but I have not heard an 8 ohm speaker that suits my needs as well as the MAXX's.
If anyone is on the West Coast and wants to hear them, consider this an open invitation. Just be prepared to know that after hearing them, you will not be satisfied with anything else.
Jonathan
Dear Jonathan,
First, I have stated that this response have nothing personal, and no intention to start a flame.> > I am not sure that it is a circlotron design. I am running Wilson MAXX speakers which are 91-92db with a 4 ohm load that drops to about 3. When I used the Atma-sphere MA2 MKII.2's there was never any problem with bottom end enrgy or control and the same goes for the Tenor Audio 75WI's.I have been using OTL's for quite some time and my speakers appear to love them. As good as the Atma-spere's are, even at 225 watts or so, the Tenor's at 75 watts, are amazingly more clear and full bodied. I am not talking coloration. Both amps are extremely neutral. < <
Yes, this is a circlotron type amplifier. To be honest with you, I am not a fans of Wilson loudspeakers. I have owned the Watt/Puppy back to 1991 spring for a short period, but this is not my cup of tea; even the Watt/Puppy 6 I heard in 1999. The only Wilson loudspeaker I loved very much, was the WAMM series V and it used to my "dream speaker". IMO, most Wilson loudspeaker does not present the bottom end recreation correctly, except the WAMM series V. Between 1996 to 1999, I have heard several different set up with their second Grand Slamm X-1, but don't know why just "no bass". At that time, I think it might be the room or components causing the problems. You know the Grand Slamm have a 15" drivers in there, so I guess this is not the fault of the speakers itself. So I blamed the electronics and the set up instead of the loudspeakers. Until I read Harry Pearson wrote about the X-1 last year and claimed that this speakers need the Sunfire signature subwoofer to compensate the deep bass energy. You know HP can hook up everything under the sun to make the speaker sound good, but he still make a judgement like that. Therefore, I get a really good idea, that's speakers have no bottom end energy. Even I talked to some of my friend who listened to this loudspeakers, the answer is -- the bottom just not there. I haven't heard the MAXX, I have no idea how they present the bottom end energy.
I have pretty sure most OTL amplifier, such as Counterpoint SA-4, Atma-Sphere MA-1, etc. are very hard to get the bottom end energy without higher impedance. I have done an experiment with ATma-Sphere MA-1 with low impedance loudspeaker and high impedance loudspeaker, the sonic differences on the bottom end was dramatic!! This is the reason I prefer listen to the transformer coupled amplifier, they just less compromise and harmonically more correct.
Sometimes sensitivity figures does not mean anything. The reason is the sensitivity will not be the same other than 1KHz, also not many loudspeakers have a pretty flat the impedance over the frequency range.
Don't make me wrong. I still believe what you heard from your system, but I really doubt the MAXX can kick out the bottom end energy what I am talking about, I mean between 50Hz to further lower frequency. I guess some of the bookshelf loudspeaker will hide the problems of the OTL amplifier at lower impedance load.
> > The Tenor's just sound much more like the instruments do live. I find it hard to use the typical audiophile terms with the Tenor's because they are unlike anything I have ever heard. They just do everything well and some things better than anything I could have imagined. The Atma-sphere's have just become the second best amps I have ever heard or owned. The Tenor's deliver real power, real dynamics, with a purity and clarity that, I dare say, does not exist in any other amplification device. I am sure with my speakers the Tenor's will not dirve them to 120 db, but who cares. I want to hear music and not show off.I am sure with an 8 ohm speaker, the amplifiers would not work as hard, but I have not heard an 8 ohm speaker that suits my needs as well as the MAXX's.If anyone is on the West Coast and wants to hear them, consider this an open invitation. Just be prepared to know that after hearing them, you will not be satisfied with anything else. < <That's great. You have a system you really love and enjoy the music, this is the most important thing. Again, I am really interested to heard this tenor amplifier after reading your postings. Unfortunately, I am not living in West Coast.
Yours Sincerely,
PPTTo other AA members: You have a right to disagree or agree what I wrote about Wilson loudspeakers. However, not necessary to flame me back, ok!! :)
PPT,You are a brave man with strong opinions which you express very well.
I may not fully agree with what you say regarding Wilson loudspeakers but you've encouraged me to listen more critically to the bass performance of the WATT/Puppy 6. I hope you are wrong, but then again I haven't played Michel Jonaz' History of Mr. Swing disc in quite a while. Could be a revealing experience.jim
Dear Jim,
> > You are a brave man with strong opinions which you express very well. < <Thank you very much!
> > I may not fully agree with what you say regarding Wilson loudspeakers but you've encouraged me to listen more critically to the bass performance of the WATT/Puppy 6. < <
The bass of the WATT/Puppy 6 remind my childhood, when my mom hit on my ass. I feel they are similar type of the sound.
> > I hope you are wrong, but then again I haven't played Michel Jonaz' History of Mr. Swing disc in quite a while. Could be a revealing experience. < <
I have played the Michel Jonaz disc on thos speakers. Oh man, I hope it will not disappoint you. Anyway, have fun during listen to the Wilson speakers, even I am not appreciate to listen to that but I hope you can enjoy it. I also wish it is a matter of taste, not the fault from the loudsepakers itself.
Best Regards,
PPT
I totally see the sincerity in your post and am certainly not mistaking it as a flame.The Wilson speakers have no problem going down to 25 hz in most homes. While I have never measured, I belive the MAXX's go down a bit deeper in mine. I know the X-1 have arguably some of the best bass of any speaker. I have had the MA1 MKII.2's on the Watt Puppy 5.1's and they did not produce bass. On the 6's, it is a different story. The MA2's will drive any of the Wilson speakers with little or no effort at extreme frequencies - highs and lows.
I also, do not question if the Wilson's were 8 ohms that they would be driven better by OTL's, I just state that they do great as they are.
I do not know where or how you heard Wilson speakers. If you came away feeling the way you do, I can only say with all certainty that you did not hear them setup properly. The one thing they excel at is bass and air movement. Not liking the sound of them is one thing, to deny the drive the Wilson's have is either a terrible setup or severe mismatching of electronics. I know it is not the Atma-sphere's or the Tenor's.
Dear Jonathan,
> > I totally see the sincerity in your post and am certainly not mistaking it as a flame. < <Thank you very much!!
> > The Wilson speakers have no problem going down to 25 hz in most homes. While I have never measured, I belive the MAXX's go down a bit deeper in mine. < <
Again, I never listened to the MAXX. Therefore, I cannot comment on this one:)
> > I know the X-1 have arguably some of the best bass of any speaker. < <
I prefer listen to another speaker which I also don't like -- The JM Lab Grand Utopia. At least the Grand Utopia have bass, even their bass is "boom" from what I heard. But I can equalise it at least by TACT or Z-system components. However, nobody can save a speaker "deep bassless", no device can help it.
> > I have had the MA1 MKII.2's on the Watt Puppy 5.1's and they did not produce bass. On the 6's, it is a different story. The MA2's will drive any of the Wilson speakers with little or no effort at extreme frequencies - highs and lows. < <
I agree with you in most case the earlier version of the Watt/Puppy have no bass. However, I have listened to over 10 different systems with Watt/Puppy 6. It sounds like "plastic sounding on the midbass", no matter it is driven by Sonic Frontiers Power series or ML 33, still have that character.
> > I do not know where or how you heard Wilson speakers. If you came away feeling the way you do, I can only say with all certainty that you did not hear them setup properly. < <I listened to the systems all set up with Wilson loudspeakers are pretty decent, but I cannot say this is perfect. But I just based on the speakers I have experienced with lately can do better than the Wilson -- Alon Circes and Infinity MTS Prelude.
> > The one thing they excel at is bass and air movement. Not liking the sound of them is one thing, to deny the drive the Wilson's have is either a terrible setup or severe mismatching of electronics. I know it is not the Atma-sphere's or the Tenor's. < <
High end audio just like someone like Italian cuisine, but other like French cuisine. This is matter of taste, preference and judgement. Personally, I feel the Wilson loudspeakers just do not done music correctly and the way I understand.
Best Regards,
PPT
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