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Hi all,In a couple months or so, I am going to receive a small inheritance. Whatever else I do, I'd like to get a pair of really nice speakers that capitalize on all I like about my Swifts, but go much further. After thumbing through a LOT of info and sites and reviews and what not, it looks to me like Silverline's Sonatina II is the speaker I want. I can't audition a damn thing where I live, and I certainly couldn't audition those.
I plan on buying used, so I would place the peak of my budget at maybe $2500. What interests me about the Sonatinas is that they are a proper four-way speaker, I'd rather have something that can move significantly more air than my modest Swifts. Also, the Sonatinas are recommended for somewhat smaller rooms (not 'large' rooms, anyway). The qualities that I'm looking for are, well, probably the qualities anyone is looking for, but what has caught my eye in descriptions has been the claims of coherence--I really like the smooth sound the Swifts' time-alignment provides--and naturalism.
The Swifts fail to convincingly diappear, and they do sound slightly boxy. The sound is somewhat pinched, if I pay attention. The sweet spot is narrow. I want a speaker that has a wide enough dispersion that the music sound convincing and full from more than just a couple-square feet cube on my couch. And, finally, that just sounds real and fleshed out. I am not an imaging junkie, I don't care if it doesn't have lethal bass, I just want something that has an open, natural, realistic presentation, and conveys the dynamics of music without imparting anything extra. In other words, what we all want, just maybe a little more laid back and less edgily resolved than I feel many people are after. I love my Meadowlark Swifts; I want them, only moreso. The Sonatina II's look like they can be that speaker. Is there any other speaker I might be overlooking, for around $4000 new, $2500 used?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Follow Ups:
Try the excellent floor standers based on the Jordan JX92S single driver with no crossovers from Ronnie at www.carolinaaudio.com. I think you'll find them extremely neutral and convey the true emotion of the music. He has a money back guarantee and is a true gentleman. He also loves to talk on the telephone so feel free to phone him and discuss your needs with him. He's extremely knowledgeable and helpful. Happy hunting.
Any controlled directivity speaker is going to give you a relatively narrow sweet spot. Try something a little different.http://ohmspeakers.com
John
it again: I had $13k (new) speakers immediately before the (used) $3200 (w/stands) Sonus Faber Electa Amator IIs I now enjoy, and I don't miss much, except a bit of lower bass.
I have lived with these for about six months and thought I'd get a sub real soon....but keep putting it off 'cause they sound so damn good w/out one. They are also one hell of a beaufiul speaker...thick, quality wood cabinetry. A three-way, acoustic design would mean you'd need a lot of wattage/current, but I've heard of guys with lower tube amps driving them to their satisfaction. Depends on how much volume you like. I have a 220/w ss amp with LOTS of current, and I deafen myself way before the speakers are beaming.
If you can do a little work, the Thor kit from Madisound by Joe D'Appolito, one of the few designers who actually knows waht he's doing and why he's doing it, is akiller for $1600 or $1800 with extra quality parts. It's easily a an excellent $5000 speaker.
"I just want something that has an open, natural, realistic presentation, and conveys the dynamics of music without imparting anything extra"Sounds like some used Maggies will fit the bill nicely...
The VMPS line has been receiving well deserved rave reviews and also winning Best of CES last year. Go to the VMPS forum at audiocircle.com and there's plenty of people to help. The RM 40's used are a little more than your budget but there are smaller models too. These VMPS speakers I'm afraid outclass the Vandersteens. Then again most are more money. I've owned both and it's not even close. Ask around before you spend your money and listen if you can. In 30 years of this hobby I find the VMPS line to be of the very best value per dollar in speakers. No doubt there's alot I haven't heard but this is also the general consensus of alot of different people with different experiences all coming to the same conclusion.The customer service is also second to none. Part of the reason for the great pricing is no advertising and only a small dealer network. When you hear them you'll see/hear what I mean.
the value proposition is tough to beat. There are many other great speakers, but for a given level of quality, you'll pay lots more.
Rhizo how you doing? I haven't talked talked to you since the session at Musical Concepts. You may want to try the Merlin TSM's in that price range or a used pair of VSM's. Have you been to Music for Pleasure as of late they have the Dynaudio line. I also think the place that carries Kieth Herron also sells the Audio Note line. Something else you may want to try is The next speaker up in the Meadowlark line I think you can hear these at John Heligs place.
Also We are putting together another session in a few weeks. Hope you can make it.
Sturgus
Count me in. I'm on my way out the door, but definitely get in touch with me.
You may also want to try Ariel. A buddy of mine who had both Meadowlarks and JM Labs got rid of them in favor of the Ariels.
and buy a pair of Vandersteen 2CE Sigs new or used...Sure, they may not be the slickest looking things out there (esp compared to the new Meadowlarks, etc), but I think they'll offer much, much more of what you like in the Swifts. The 3A's are even better provided you have the room and ample amplification the drive them. Fads come in go, but Vandersteen has remained true to his design philosophy for 20+ years and its a damn good one...I think these are all the speaker you could ever want for a long, long time...Im no audio bullshitter and truly think this hobby is full of smoke and mirrors. I use 1C's and plan on eventually upgrading to 2CE's...Don't overlook a TRUE audio bargain and a product that has stood the test of time consistantly...
had both 2CEsigs and 3As and 3As are definetly better in bass department -personnaly I'd get some magnaplanar 3.6Rs.
I went with a pair of 2 CE Sigs new at around $1650 including stands (which you need...they are specific to the speakers). I cannot believe how good these speakers are. They all but disappear. When you are listening to something dynamic, sounds seem to leap out of the soundstage. It's like your ears expect the range to stop at a certian point, and then a sound will appear from somewhere else, and not just at loud levels. That's the beauty...they can preserve the integrity of each sound that is being presented...it's like each sound gets its own speaker and amplifier. The more I listen to them, the more I'm amazed. Then, when you consider the price for these things (and used they are even more of a steal), you just can't help feeling great about the purchase.One word of advice, though...make sure that you also buy the best possible electronics, as the speakers are really deserving of equipment that would normally be used with $10,000 speakers. They are very transparent, and system flaws are easy to spot. (I immediately went out and upgraded my CD, for example, and could appreciate the difference one I did, even A/B testing.
"4-way, 3-way; first-order crossovers, transmission line bass, time alignment, etc., etc."If there were one right way to make good-sounding speakers, then that's the way everyone would make them.
Recognize these phrases for what they are: efforts by the manufacturer to differentiate his product from the rest.
In particular, remember that every crossover between two drivers is very tricky to implement. So, with your (pardon my saying this) modest speaker budget, expecting a well-executed 4-way is just not too realistic.
Trust your ears instead. Don't buy any speaker that you have not auditioned first. That's an ironclad rule that I follow. If that means that some speakers you've read about or heard about on AA are off the list, so be it. That's much better than getting stuck with something that sounds bad to you that you have to take a loss on by selling.
You've identified what you don't like about the Swifts and you've made a set of priorities, although you need to decide what kind of volume levels you want to achieve and how many watts you have to achieve them.
I'm not attracted to the four-wayness of the Sonatinas on principle, I'm just attracted to having four drivers as opposed to two. It could be a three way or a four way, I'm not even sure what *exactly* is the difference between those, but I know, or at least I think I know, that four drivers are going to solve the problems that I have with the Swifts' mere two.I didn't audition anything that constitutes my current system, and I think I've done a pretty good job. If I had the opportunity, believe me, I would, but I find myself liking what I hear about smaller manufacturers more than the more established names, with more dealers, so even if I lived in a more bustling metropolis, I'd be unlikely to be able to audition the stuff I'm interested in.
I know I'm taking a risk, but I feel like I have a good sense of what to look out for in reviews or discussions that might be a red flag for my tastes. It's all learning for me at this point, so I'm not too worried about making mistakes. Aside from some clunkers and poorly considered matches, I feel like most of the stuff that's out there is pretty decent, and I think there's more consensus on the qualities of particular products than most people give the community credit for.
So, it's a roll of the dice, but of course there's always the possibilty that you'd audition something you liked, take it home, and either dislike it in your home, or grow bored with it over the time. So there's no sure thing. But I do appreciate the advice.
between driver lobing (inteference patterns) and crossover issues, for every issue addressed, three may spring up to replace it. Some of the things you like about the Swift may be because they only have two drivers, but you probably know that already.Regarding your original question, I have that wonderful answer, "it depends." :^{ I'm shooting from the hip here, but I wonder how much of your small sweet issue stems from first order crossovers (any input from those with actual knowledge?). If you can, get out and listen to some speakers which use steeper slopes.
Regarding actual suggestions, several come to mind:
ProAc Response 2.5 - Every ProAc I have heard has had a pretty broad listening sweet spot and just plain sounded good. These do want some watts, but the impedance is pretty benign, so you don't need a current beast of an amp.
Spendor SP9/1 - the floorstanding version of the SP100, with a little more attention to diffraction effects. These should give a big, warm sound with a great midrange. Might not be a great choice for a small room, but Art Dudley used to use SP100s in a 14'x11' room. Should be an easy drive, with good efficiency (better than the ProAcs) and no weird impedance swings. SP100s could also do a good job of doing what you want, too.
Good luck,
JimIv
Vandersteen 3A Signature should be available used for that money.
87dB. I'm hoping to maybe use some lower-wattage tube amps down the road. Seems like the Vandys need more power.
The Vandersteens are limited dynamically but they do sound excellent. Both my brother who also owned some and myself came to the conclusion that they sound plenty good but can't quit get "there" if you want some significant volume. In my opinion the bass is on the weak side but most people will tell you the opposite. If you can hear the VMPS or Magnepans you should do it. It may be that you don't like their characteristics. Many people do and both are considered excellent values for the money as are the Vandersteens. This is a tough question for you to ask others as speakers all have so much difference in their portrayal of music. Some people don't care about bass much but I do. Also most bass that is considered good is actually kind of light. The Vmps line is known for excellent bass and is one reason I like them. Whatever you do you owe it to yourself to listen to any planar/ribbon speaker you can and see if it's something you like. Not many cone drivers can do what these types of speakers can. It's up to you though...
You're right. The Vandies love current. My DR9 was a great match at 100 wpc and 200 into 4 ohms. Low watt tubes need not apply.
All the Vandersteens from the 2ce Sig up are bi-wireable/bi-ampable.
My amp is roughly 85 watts, and it's plenty of power for the 2 CE Sigs.
.
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