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In Reply to: Not quite... posted by SE on August 30, 2002 at 03:38:14:
Do you disagree with everything I post because of an inferiority complex, or is it because you can't stand to see someone who knows what they're talking about?My "quasi-technical" explanation happens to be completely correct. You are right that there are those who remain silent - however, Glen Gould, Oscar Peterson, Stefon Harris, Cal Collins, Herb Ellis, Benny Green, and hundreds of other artists contradict your assanine retort. Just about every guitar player, bass player, piano player, vibraphonist that I have heard, met, or worked with has vocalized at some time, and to some degree in the production of their music. I explained WHY it is done, from personal experience - unless you speak with Kenny Werner and other icons of the industry about Keith Jarrett and vocalization, to disagree with the explanation given shows clearly that you don't know what the hell you are talking about, and to make matters worse, your arrogance turns my stomach.
You quote chord progressions to me, say that I am full of BS, disagree with something that every jazz player I know would back me up on, including those who are friends with KJ, and make yourself look like an ass for the sole purpose of trying to shoot little holes in everything I post. I'm tired of it. You are a moron, and if I could get your hack-ass on the bandstand, I would cut you to shreds.
Follow Ups:
You've got me mixed up with someone else. I've never posted anything to you before jazztrumpet.
I did post the "Not quite" reply, where I disagreed with your technical explanation. You state that vocalizing is "a way of making sure you're not playing with your mind or patterns your fingers know". My perspective is that it's the brain along with the resultant execution through the fingers, feet etc. that makes the music. Vocalization is merely an artifact, extraneous to the process, that some musicians either simply don't do naturally, learn to supress, or simply can't control (like KJ and many others). I would be genuinely interested in reading more about this if I knew where to look.All of that said -- and it's only a different perspective is all -- I'm assuming that your emotional outpouring wasn't intended by my single post (SE), more likely at the general nonsense you encountered with another poster (Severius?).
Regards,
Steve
yes, I did have you mixed up with Severius. I figured his dumb ass which is too lazy to register was also to lazy to type in his full moniker. Please accept my sincerest apologies, I feel really bad.Where your view doesn't line up with reality is that vocalization is extraneous to the process. You are correct that some suppress this, but improvisation is vocal in nature - you play on a tune and you sing the improvisation you want - too often musicians don't stay honest to the line they would sing - they get influenced by the patterns they practice, etc. Vocalization is necessary - singing your line is the key to honest improvisation. Suppression is a good explanation for all great improvisers who don't, or can't due to the limitations of their instrument, vocalize.
Again, please accept my sincerest apologies. Email me - I'll send some KJ albums to make it up to you - I feel really bad, but that Severius guy has made me want to bi***-slap him REALLY hard.
I play drums, and happen to be a bit of a moaner myself. My vocalization occurs mostly at moments when the groove throughout the band is most intense; it's sort of an emotional overspill in my mind. I am pretty adamant about improvising to the greatest degree possible within the bounds of reasonable taste at all times--I don't like to play anything the same way twice, and actually in my own bands try to move on to new vehicles (tunes) as often as possible. I tend to vocalize less when I'm at the edge of my capabilities, playing something totally new.
I can see your point with someone like Dena DeRose (who can sing exactly what she plays as she plays it) or even Slam Stewart, but Jarrett? What does "nnnnngggggggwweeeeeOOOOOooohhhhh!" have to do with what Jarett plays? Or the vocalizatins of most famous moaners? The correlation is usually vaguely rhythmic at most. I'm all for avoiding licks, but I don't think Jarrett's moaning is what helps him do this. He may even think it does--maybe suppressing it inhibits him in other ways. But to say the moaning is the key to true improvisation as an intellectual process just doesn't make sense to me.
dh
that's too bad. If you listen to KJ's development, his moaning started parallel with his lines, and then moved to the more unrelated moans you are referring too. I have heard almost all of his stuff, and I still say that the moans correlate with the lines he plays - less now with the actual notes, and more with the emotional content. I'm sorry you disagree. But, moan on if it helps.
Don't think anything of it, I kinda figured that's what it was. Thanks for the offer, but you don't owe me a thing! I appreciate your patience in explaining vocalization.
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