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I mean of course he can't have NO soul but his recordings never seem to move me, and I never feel like they connect me to the essence of the music.Thoughts?
nt
Not only that but he was an evil ugly human as well
nt
Some say you have to build your own soul. Maybe Gurdjieff? Don't take anything for granted, charlatans abound.
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jusbe
Share and save the World.
but I wasn't talking about *a* soul; just soul.
...silly me!Actually, I'm glad you bothered to respond to my post--a late-night burst of flippancy I'm sorry to have inflicted on you--because it gives me a chance to say that I think Karajan does have soul, in the James Brown sense, in scads.
His late-50s, early 60s recordings of the Beethoven symphonies are just swell--the 7th with the Philharmonia on Angel 35005 and the 8th with the Berlin Philharmonic on DG 138 808 in particular are really stirring stuff. Tbey make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up in a way very few other attempts on these pieces can.
I like his Wagner cycle too, though not as much as Solti's, and I've always been partial to his Mahler interpretations. Bernstein may get more depth and drama out of Mahler's scores, but I often opt for Karajan-led recordings when I want to wallow a little more in the Romanticism; I think he brings a shade more lyricism to #4 for instance.
I suppose a comparison of Karajan and Bernstein doing Mahler on vinyl is what led me to agree with one often-mentioned criticism of Karajan, that as his career progressed he tended to foreground the strings more and more at the expense of winds and percussion, a development that unfortunately proved influential on other conductors and recording companies. Quite often, if you want to hear what the score sound like played by the whole orchestra, you have to put Karajan's DGs aside and turn to other people. Ironically, of course, Karajan's crush on the sensual sweep of the strings is where you might most easily accuse him of having soul, but regrettably in the Neil Diamond rather than the James Brown sense.
Cheers,
Win.
Did I just admit that in public?
People who've steered me right in the past are saying there's something there so I'll have to check out a couple of the recommended recordings (probably one of the Bruckner's, the '77 9th and Mahler's 9th to start) and give him another shot.Thanks again. (I love this board, my cd collection has more than doubled since I started visiting here)
Karajan is only a conductor not a musician !
By and large, you're right...It's interesting that some of Karajan's early gramophone successes were projects that Furtwangler rehearsed only to have the EMI producer Walter Legge have Karajan record (the Brahms German Requiem and Mozart's Magic Flute to give two examples)...Legge was notorious in being an armchair conductor and wanted his interprative ideas brought out, which obviously wasn't possible with a person like Furtwangler; for someone like Karajan who was more interested in furthering his career it was another matter. In fact there's also a quote from the Berlin tympanist saying they knew the music making was going to take a step down with Karajan but that they wanted the financial security of someone who would be able to 'sell' their records after the deprivations of the war years...there's also the quote from Elizabeth Schwarzkopf (Legge's wife) that during a recording session for a Schubert symphony Karajan would go into the control room to listen to Beecham's recording...
I can't remember the source, but I remember a comment regarding Karajan's last recording of the Bruckner 8th with the Vienna saying how ironic it was that only now did he understand the music (i.e. after a lifetime conducting!)...
Try his Verdi Requiem with Price and Pavarotti, now out on DVD (but only on deleted CDs). Maybe I am in the minority but I happen to like his 1977 Beethoven Ninth a lot too.
Karajan IMO is the greatest conductor of the 20th century. the sound is slick and polished, but he also had a deep spirituality inside the music. Not raw, heart on the sleeves emotion, but a quieter inner quality.But on certain things, his approach sucked. like pretty much anything before 1900.
Sibelius - never equalled.
Strauss - never equalled.
Bruckner - only Sawallisch is better.
Beethoven - pioneering.
Debussy - still among the great readings.But the real great stuff was the pieces that really challenged him:
VW Tallis Fasantasia - incredible.
Roussel 4 th - legendary
Shostakovich 10
Honneger 2
Schoenberg
Balakirev - Symphony
Nielsen 4 - still unequalled
Hi,I like that list of his good stuff - and the stuff where he really found something eg. his R. Strauss tone poems, and the Debussy La Mer, on DGG both, are the ones to have, for me.
Can't stand his later recordings of Mozart though and the last two or more Beethoven series 'just weren't.'
'Too slick' is the problem.
His dictatorship of the Salzburg festival doesn't read well, but perhaps this is only one viewpoint. ( book - The Maestro Myth?)
We had a PM called Bob Hawke and he was called the 'silver bodgie', cos of his hair, and other things. Did Von K ever cop such a nickname? He needs one that encompasses some lack of respect, I ween.
But I'm an Australian, so I would think that, wouldn't I!
LOL
timbo
To prove he had soul, just go listen his recording of Mozart's Horn Concertos, with Dennis Brain (EMI GROC), and you´ll find him conducting in a state of grace: I can only compare that with Barbirolli´s recording of Vaughan Williams' "Variations on a Theme of Thomas Tallis", to me the noblest playing of that wonderful piece.Then, there are some more soulful recordings by Karajan: there´s his "Zauberflöte" from late fifties, his "Parsifal" which, even not to the last heights of Knappertsbusch´s for Decca in the fifties, still is a deep, searching reading; or his Mahler´s "Ninth" (both two versions, for DGG)..., and some more, but these ones will be enough to change your appreciations.
It´s a pity he wasn´t on that mood more frequently, and that he not few times overpolished things in his search for perfection. But he had a soul, even if it didn´t show up so much.
Regards
BF
yes,that is a great record, and I say that preferiing a basset-clarinet and HIP, this is a fine performance where he doesn't just accompany, yet Brain is 'in there' too.
what went wrong later?
timbo
Try this or Karajan's Sibelius symphonies on DG. His Beethoven has never pushed the right buttons for me, but his Schubert is surprisingly good.
I am anything but a Karajan fan. However...Try his Sibelius 4th on DG -- the first recording I bought, and still my favorite over treasured versions of it by Ashkenazy, Colin Davis,Blomstedt, and others. Karajan more than any other always makes me feel like I'm out on the tundra near dusk, having just lost the love of my life, and yet with all that, that life is still very much worth living -- which I think the opening bars of the Sibelius 4th are supposed to make you feel.
John
He had his moments.... Did a great Berlioz "Roman Carnival" Overture... Karajan's problem to me is I often got the impression he "glossed over" the music. Often eliciting sloppy ensemble. He was an excellent conductor, but not in the league of let's say Furtwangler or Klemperer. Or Toscanini, Walter, Koussevitzky, Reiner, or Szell.
I sometimes wonder if I've allowed historical knowledge of his Nazi party connections to influence my emotional response to his music. Many of his later recordings sound somewhat cold & mechanical, but these have moved me-Beethoven 9th, 1977 cycle (best of his 5 recordings, IMO)
Bruckner 7th & 8th
Beethoven 5th, 1963 cycleI get goosebumps whenever I hear the tenor entrance "froh" (Peter Schreier) in the choral finale of the 9th. It's currently available on a budget DG "galleria" CD. I also understand that the entire 77 cycle has been promised for hybrid SACD/CD later this year.
His late Tchaikovsky symphonies are pretty good, too-an emotionally reserved style works well for those works, which are already pretty emotionally overwrought.
"His late Tchaikovsky symphonies are pretty good, too-an emotionally reserved style works well for those works, which are already pretty emotionally overwrought. "Call me an overwrought romantic ;-), but I found Karajan's interpretation of Tchai Sym 5 APALLING. He must have been on sedates...
-- Jacek
I never heard Karajan's Tchaik 5, but IMO his Tchaik 6 is one of the better ones. Not great, but it's been maybe 25 years since I've heard a really-good Pathetique.For every decent performance of the Tchaikovsky 4, 5, and 6 out there, there are maybe four or five that have been butchered... I find Tchaikovsky maybe the most-frustrating composer to listen to, in regard to interpretation.
Speaking of Tchaikovsky: Try the Scherzo from the Pathetique I think 1977. That should move you.
Tom
I debated whether or not to bring that up in my post. I have wondered if my feelings about his conducting are affected by my knowledge of his Nazi party connections. I don't think they are but its impossible to say for sure. Realistically I probably haven't listened to anything from him pre 1980's. I may check out the 9th you recommended.BTW I picked up (among others) Waits' "Alice" disc. Now there's the kind of feeling I'm looking for.
have been well examined over the years and found to be groundless.Yes, he became a member of tthe nazi party, but this had nothing to do with nazi ideology, and everything to do with the fact that to work - and make a living - he was required to.
At the time, he was married to a woman who was half jewish.
He never actually participated in the party, and in fact had many conflicts. He actually assisted many jewish musicians.
Some years ago, I spent several months in Germany. One of my hosts asked if my father had served in the army. I said yes, in the air force, how about you? He said yes, of coursee, I was in the German army, you know, for Hitler. Seeing the shock on my face, he shrugged his shoulders and said - you know, we all were, it was no choice, we couldn't very well sign up with the British army, now could we?
Karajan was no more a nazi than any one of the millions of Germans who became party members out of necessity.
Karajan's output in the 80's deeclined as his health declined, and he was focused on the film media, re-recording his core repertoire for film.
He did, however, enter a wonderful golden period near the end, where he made some absolutely transcendent readings, the Brucker 8 with the VPO is peeerless in it's raw emotion and beauty, as is the VPO 7th.
The great tragedy with Karajan that had he lived a few more years we would have had some incredible music, upon leaving the BPO he was entering a period where he felt free to focus on music and was recharged emotionally.
Check out the Brucker 8 with the VPO on DG, it is awesome.
I'd suggest you read Shirikawa's "The Devil's Music Master: The Controversial Life and Career of Wilhelm Furtwangler" for more insight into Karajan, Furtwangler, and the impact of the mass exodus of European musicians on both before and during World War II.I tend to think of the 1940s Karajan as a "boot-licking Nazi toadie". Compared to Furtwangler and several others, IMHO, he was certainly no hero.
Your mileage may vary.
John
"Realistically I probably haven't listened to anything from him pre 1980's."I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. While he had some occassional winners in the eighties (e.g. his Mahler 9), most of his best stuff came much earlier. You know what they say, "Older is Better"...
Probably tomorrow, though- going to a friend's house for dinner and he's a big Waits fan, I'm sure he's bought both of them already. Mule Variations was incredible-talk about feeling. House where nobody lives, Georgia Lee, Picture in a frame-unbelievable.
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