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I have been listening to symphonies 1 & 3 on Naxos ( Petri Sakari and the Icelandic Syph. O.). I do not understand why this music is not more popular. I hardly ever heard it on NPR.
The first symphony sounds reminiscent of Tchaikovsy, but the 3rd, which I cannot stop listening to, sounds very distinct. I suppose it took Sibelius a while to develope his own idiom.
I am thoroughly hooked on this composer, and any suggestions regarding symphony cycles, tone poems, or concertos would be welcome (I have the violin concerto w/ Anne-Sophie Mutter-another recording that I am in love with).
Thanks in advance..............................Danno
Follow Ups:
Go to the amazon link, read the reviews and then get this. It sounds great, it is ridiculously cheap and this is my favorite 4th (of course I haven't heard them all). All these Decca Legends are good, but this one is really really good.
- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TTX3/qid=1113321848/sr=2-4/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_4/102-4243226-7989761 (Open in New Window)
nt
I have #4 as played by Stokowski and the Philadelphia Orchestra on a middle 30's RCA 78 set. THe sonics are stunning, 78s recorded well only lacked stereo.THe perfomance is addictive. This was recorded before Stokowski started to "interpret" everyone's music, so it is a pretty literal reading of the score. There are no weak points at all in the performance. I hope I can find some more.
Sure, there are many who dislike Stokowski, but his early years were brilliant.
Although I largely agree with what you say, some of yor points are arguable. I would not dismiss Davis blanketly. He did very interesting things with the First (intro. to the second movement) and Third (finale)on the Boston cycle. Actually, nobody reveals the polyphony, the "emergence of order from chaos" in Sibelius own words, at the end of this work. Karajan's first (Angel) version of the Second does not give propper meaning to this most tragic of Sibelius creations, and I don't believe any spectacular re-issue would correct that. Barbirolli is indeed great Sibelian conductor, but with each particular work he is never the best. The mere fact that he recorded at least four versions of the Second testifies to his own dissatisfaction. I respectfully disagree that Jarvi Bis cycle lacks in artistry - it is just different and somewhat unusual artistry that one has to understand. Yes, Berglund is The Master, but listen to his Second with Bournemouth, and you will be disappointed.Otherwise, agree wholeheartedly with your judgement.
Admittedly the Boston cycle by Davis on Philips is far better than the remakes (so far) on the rather shrill sounding LSO Live label.I think that the BSO cycle is pretty darn good. One of the better complete cycles. I agree, though, that the RCA remake is fair, no real reason worth owning when there is so much else to buy. I have not heard anything from the LSO Live cycle.
Although he never recorded all the symphonies, Ormandy is another noteworthy Sibelius conductors. Sibelius went on record as saying that he enjoyed Ormandy's conducting of his music -- Sibelius disliked hearing his music performed, feeling that few people really understood it. He even had Ormandy over for tea when on tour in Europe -- apparently Sibelius was a bit of a recluse in his later years, rarely meeting with conductors who wanted to meet him.
I have over 400 different Sibelius records, mostly LP.
Here are my best:First: Stokowski (Columbia, not the earlier RCA).
Second: Okko Kamu, DG. Also good Cameron (Vox), Karajan (EMI/Angel 80s, not to be confused with earler one on the same label), Barbirolli (Chesky).
Third: Davis/Boston (Philips), Jarvi (Bis), Kamu (DG), Rozhdestvensky (Melodiya or Quintessence), Gibson (earlier Saga or later Chandos), Berglund (Finlandia).
Fourth: Karajan (DG, not two others on EMI), Maazel (Decca)
Fifth: Berglund (EMI), Delogu (Supraphon).
Sixth: Berglund (Eterna, and another version EMI)
Seventh: none that I really like.
Kullervo: Berglund (EMI)
Voces Intimae Quartet: Voces Intimae (Bis), Sibelius Quartet
(Finlandia).
Violin Concerto: too many great performances to list here. Gitlis (Vox) I would single out.
Night Ride and Sunrise: Stein (Decca)
Lemminkainen Legends: Ormandy (Angel or MoFi, not earlier Columbia). Also, a great set of tone poems by Ormandy - Sibelius Festival (Columbia)
Karelia: Kamu (DG)
.. that is required to accumulate 400 recordings for a single composer. Your dedication and thoroughness are impressive. Out of curiosity, how many recordings do you own altogether?I've begun listening to a lot of clasical music over the past year but haven't heard Sibelius yet. I'm mostly interested in SACD and DVD-A, especially multichannel. I realize that's not your focus, but can you recommend anything in either of those formats, or a hi-rez CD?
good performance. This is also the best introduction to Sibelius Symphonies. Its very assessible. Enjoy.......
Sibelius symphonies proceed along a changing path - to me an evolutionary one - as there is a progression to Beethoven symphonies. None are the same, each is Sibelius at a different point in his life. From Kullervo through the 2nd - he says OK we master the romantic, then we move on.Why not so popular?
His melodies one does not hum. He self avowed his work as not programmatic. He tends not to repeat theme variations - as my friend Anatoly says, his ideas are too big and need not the bolstering of repetition. Ideas not of nature and patriotism, instead life and death, the existential aloneness of the soul against eternity, "the fragility of what we love most".
I feel one knows the music of Sibelius, and in the hearing one participates in it, but one does not carry it as a beautiful object to show to others, nor does one carry it as a pleasant tune.
In the end it is not societal or social music - but it is sublime and we are drawn to it - not sublime as the sensuous kiss, but a Kantian sublime - the wholly large, the profound agitation of the human condition, the beauty we associate with produndity and with truth - in a sense the darker beauty of the human mind rather than a beauty of nature although I do not find it anti-nature or un-natural.
To me Sibelius' music is his attempt at making sense of encounter with what fundamentally cannot be purposed or bound by the imagination structures, or the faculty of our senses. People do know this encounter but it is hard to share and thus hard to be 'popular'. Yet it is exquisite and up-lifting. I truly love his music but I cannot listen to it every day.
Even the Second which has been my favorite of the earlier works I will play but once a week. Best when done by a Finn. Okko Kamu - whose tempi make the difference - is the one I like best. Barbirolli understands - listen to his Fourth.
"I do not understand why this music is not more popular."Sibelius is what I would call a "hard core" composer. (In contrast to a "gateway composer" like Beethoven or Tchaikovsky.) His music might be great, but it's not music that has the melodic lines that make it easily recognizable with minimal or casual introduction.
Most people who are not into classical music, when introduced to music with the complexity of Sibelius, often react to the music as if it was a foreign language. They first don't understand it, and then get bored stiff with it.
While I have not had the benefit of listening to all seven symphonies, I have to say that I find the first and third quite melodicaly compelling. The third is particularly lovely, especially the central movement. I am no expert in music theory, but this work sounds very thematic and repetitive to my ears.
I uderstand what your are saying about his complexity. I notice this aspect more in the violin concerto than the two symphonies (1 & 3). I love the concerto, but reaction to this piece among my friends has been mixed; some find it to avant garde for their tastes. Like all music, it is a matter of taste. I guess it just strikes a chord ( bad pun intended ) with me.
However, I still think that Symph. # 3 deserves a lot more airplay, and would appeal to a wide audience.
nt
First of all, thanks to everyone for all the informative responses. I will certainly check out some of your suggestions.Now, a question: Would it be accurate to say that Sibelius was the last of the great symphony composers in the Nationalist/Romantic genre?
The composers who immediately succeded Sibelius, such as Ralph Vaughan Williams, Carl Nielsen, and Charles Ives, were all modernists, correct?
I am just wondering if there are any Romantic composers I haven't been exposed to yet.
Thanks.........................Danno
. . . it's worth noting that while Sibelius lived until 1957, he stopped composing in the mid-1920s, and most of his most famous works were composed long before that.The time-line is not exactly as you express it. Nielsen died in 1931, so he's not so far after Sibelius. Ives, too, was pretty much done composing in the 1920s. So his "modernism" pre-dated much romantic music.
Since the advent of romanticism, there have always been romantic composers, and probably always will be. (The orchestral movie score is still usually pretty much in the late romantic idiom.) You can't always tell by the composer's dates.
Nor were all romantics symphonists: Strauss and Respighi, for example.
Here are just a few names, many not symphonists, but all (arguably) composing in some version of romantic style--some less, some more, some went through changes throughout their careers, and some wrote some non-romantic music as well. YMMV!
Barber
Britten
Bernstein
Bruch
Corigliano
Elgar
Gershwin
Hanson
Holst
Rachmaninov
Respighi
Shostakovich
SmetanaThis is just off the top of my head, so no doubt I've missed several. And as I said, many would argue (vociferously) that some of these don't belong on the list. Further, some, such as Prokofiev, wrote essentially romantic music for a portion of their careers (think Romeo and Juliet).
And in fact, there's a case to be made that guys like Webern were romantic composers at heart--their music just came out differently than we expect from the word. ;-)
If you want to see where romantic symphonies went after Sibelius, start with Shostakovich. Symphonies 1, 5, and 10 are good places to start.
So much good music, so little time! Good luck.
This raises an interesting question: where does romanticism end and the 20th century begin? As you've alluded to, someone like Shostakovich was composing in the romantic tradition, but very much during the 20th century.I would call someone like Martinu a true 20th century symphonist. He was not operating under romantic tradition like many of his peers. (Talk about a totally underrated composers)
Leif Segerstam's recent recordings on Ondine with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra of the 1 & 7, 2 & 6 and 3 & 5 symphonies are excellent and rank with the best IMO.Another one to try is Segerstam's recording of Sibelius' The Oceanides, The Tempest-Suites 1 & 2, and Night Ride and Sunrise, also with the Helsinki Philharmonic on Ondine.
Very good recording quality on all of the above as well.
.
I've borrowed a couple of Sakari's Sibelius symphony recordings from the library and as I recall, there's nothing the matter with them. I say go with a conductor you like, don't mind my own preferences.I do own Sakari's recording of the Lemminkainen Suites, Finlandia, and Karelia Suite. The performances are lively and committed, quite well recorded. I might prefer my recordings of the Lemminkainen Suites with Alexander Gibson on Chandos, Horst Stein on London, and Okku Kamu on a DG LP, but Sakari and the Icelanders really give terrific performances and while I'm listening to them, I don't feel I'm missing anything.
You don't want to forget Tapiola, Pohjola's Daughter, Luonnotar (has a soprano solo), and En Saga, either, among other orchestral works.
The only complete set of the symphonies I have is Maazel's on London, which is very good, the strongest being Nos. 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7. However, many like Davis, Gibson, Ashkenazy. As well, there are many fine single CDs with Karajan, Ormandy, Rattle, Berglund, Beecham, and others.
Sibelius wrote an interesting mature String Quartet called "Voces Intimae," too.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
A great composer, only generally recognised for his tone poems, but his symphonies and choral music are equally captivating. If you can find them try -* "Complete Choral Works" - a 2 CD set on Finlandia 0630-19054-2
* "Cantatas" - on Virgin 7243 5 45589 2 4
Of his Symphonies I enjoy both the Colin Davis set on Philips and the one by Jarvi on BIS. Different, and hard to choose between them.
John
Interesting times
John-
Soundwise (not performance), which symphony set do you prefer? I'd like to invest in a complete set, but don't want to get burned with screechy CD's or other major problems.Thanks. Appreciated.
FR
Hi FRApologies for the delay in replying but I have been away for a couple of days (and I see I missed some virilant activity!!). From memory, the Colin Davis Philips set is my preference but do not take that as the last word. I'll find time later today to do a serious comparison and let you know.
John
Interesting times
I listened to the Sibelius Symphony no 3 in both sets.As soon as the Davis version (recorded 1975 & reissued on Philips 446-160-2) came through the speakers the goose bumps were generated. Ahah, yes this is the version.
But then, when listening to the Jarvi interpretation (digitally recorded 1983 on BIS 622/624) the thrilling, dark sombre Sibelius music was just as beautiful and entrancing.
I could live happily on a desert Is with either interpretation and I guess Chuck has some other versions he commends.
I had the Davis set first and it took me awhile to track down a Jarvi set and eventually settled for one used through Amazon, bought after recommendations on this Board some time ago.
My wife and I toured some of Finland last year and it was fascinating to travel through the beautiful lakeland that was the inspiration for much of Sibelius's music. The Finns have every reason for pride in this composer and have erected an interesting monument in his honour. My wife was particularly inspired as, although American by birth, all her grandparents were 100% Finnish blood, settled in Minnesota.
Enough trivia and diversion.
John
Interesting times
just the Davis and the Jarvi set's or are you asking of all the available sets?
I yet to tire of it and have most of his works (some in as many as 10+ different performances. I agree with your assessment of the 1st
Symphony and I think the 3rd Symphony is where he really starts to move from the romantic period into something more modern. But, if you find the 2nd where the conducter picks up the pace, as opposed to making it a big romantic piece as many seem to do, I think you can hear pre-echo's of whats to come. What I really enjoy is the diversity in his symphonies. None sound alike, much like Beethoven's progression thru his developement of the 9 symphonies.Cycles - BIS has surveyed much of (if not all of) Sibelius, and you really can't go wrong with any of it (I even have his solo piano compositions and transcriptions). In general Vanska brings more to it than Jarvi but when I refer to pace in the 2d symphony Jarvi's version comes to mind. Jarvi's 3rd is also excellent. Vanska's 7th and Kullervo are outstanding and to my mind the best in the current catelog. Also highly recommended Vanska are The Wood-Nymph, Tone Poems, and the original versions of Sym #5, the VC, the music from Karelia, Kuolema, King Kristian and Pelleas et Melisande.
Symphonies #5 and #6 are very assessible - #5 being one of Sibelius's more popular Symphonies next to #2. #6 is more contemporary but more like #3 than #5 or #7 (which is much more abstract than any of the other symphonies).
Symphony #4 is much a much darker piece, seeming cold and austere, however in my view it was his masterpiece and for me one that easily bears repeated listening.
Other than Vanska the only general recommendations I have for all of the Symphonies is Bergland with the COE, Ashkenazy, and Davis. Each differ from each other style wise. Personally I prefer Ashkenazy's but Bergland is outstanding and sonically better on CD. For a budget set of the symphonies, you can't go wrong with Sanderlings on Berlin Classics (or what ever label the appear, they've been around a while). I assume by now there are also budget sets of the Ashkenazy and Davis BSO cycles. Bergland also did a full cycle on EMI and if its available it should be on a budget set as well.
And the list goes on...but I'm not going to. In summary, were I you, I'd start with a set of the symphonies - and I'd probably recommend Berglands with the COE. For the other music, except the VC, I'd buy the recordings from BIS by Vanska. But, FWIW this is also available by Gibson on budget chandos, and these are excellent performances, but sonically are not up to the BIS recordings. In the VC, by the way, try Heifitz on RCA. IMHO his performance is as close to definitive as one can get.
Enjoy the voyage..............:-)
My two favorite syms of his are 2 & 4 - magnificent!! I also really enjoy 1,5,6 and 3 (more or less in that order). Seven is a bit tougher nut - more austere than the others. As far as recommendable cycles are concerned, my overall favorite is the Osmo Vanska on Bis (with excellent sonics as well). I also have the Segerstan on Chandos (an eccentric, often slower view of the music but interesting none the less) and the Jarvi on Bis (pretty good). I'm sure others will chime in - Colin Davis is on his third complete recording of the syms for LSO Live though I'm not familiar with any of them. I'll stick with Vanska on Bis.
Mark
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